.38 Loads in .357 Brass.... [Archive]

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5hundo

03-30-2009, 10:42 PM

I'm loading up some home defense loads for my girlfriend and I want to try to adjust the power of the charge so that it's controllable for her, yet has good muzzle velocity and decent energy.

I chose a 125gr JHP from hornady because it's lighter and would stand to have some speed behind it. I was going to use unique, starting around 5.0gr and working up from there to about 7.0 - 8.0gr maximum...

I'm wondering if there is any risk of detonation using .357 casings for what will be .38 special loads. This might be a stupid question, but better safe than sorry...

...any input would be much appreciated. :thumbsup:

Spyduh

03-30-2009, 10:50 PM

5hundo

03-30-2009, 11:05 PM

Well, these rounds are going through a revolver and are therefore, not dinged up or damaged. I honestly don't see that the thread you've alluded to would apply in regards to failures with auto-loaders...

On the issue of safety and reliability, I'm not concerned. I load off of a single stage press and I individually measure my powder charges. My issue is that none of the "off the shelf" ammo meets our needs. The .38 Special rounds are pretty weak, the +P rounds seem to be too heavy and the .357 rounds are way too much for her. I need something in between a +P and a Magnum and there's currently nothing out there that we like...

Beelzy

03-31-2009, 09:07 AM

Use lead bullets. (LSWC).

Pressures are unpredictable with the bullet you are considering. I had a hard
time getting that combo to work. YMMV

J-cat

03-31-2009, 09:30 AM

There's a bigger issue at hand than just blowing up.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337983

It's a non-issue unless your GF is suicidal...

Harbinger

03-31-2009, 09:50 AM

Spyduh

03-31-2009, 09:53 AM

It's a non-issue unless your GF is suicidal...

Does no one read?

The issue is of legality and lawsuits if you shot an intruder with home made reloads.

Stick with factory defense rounds. It will save you a bunch of lawyer money.

buffybuster

03-31-2009, 10:29 AM

You can mitigate the 'too little powder volume' situation by switching to TrailBoss powder. It literally fills a .38 case for a 'medium' load and will do a good job filling .357, as well, while still maintaining lower pressure and projectile velocity.

The powder itself looks like little puffy donuts. It was specifically designed for cases that were originally filled to the brim with black powder.

http://www.gunblast.com/IMR_TrailBoss.htm

Mike

TRAILBOSS is an excellent powder for reduced loads. However Trailboss is to be used ONLY WITH LEAD BULLETS. No jacketed bullets with Trailboss. The higher engraving pressures of jacket bullets could let one stick in the bore.

With the OP, Unique is an excellent powder for mid-range magnum loads. I think 5grs is too light, you'll need to bump it up, especially with jacketed bullets.

Though for home defense use, I would recommend Factory Loads. I think you can find some 110gr JHP, 125gr JHP or 135gr JHP, 38Special loads that would work for you. I think they are marketed at snubnose revolver loads.

gunboat

03-31-2009, 11:36 AM

+ 10 on the use of factory loads --- lawyers will make it sound like you loaded the ammo for killing elephants -- One box is enough for your needs -- Let her shoot a few rounds to get the feel and put the rest in the night stand with the weapon -- my ha-penny

Snapping Twig

03-31-2009, 12:14 PM

Justified self defense will do much to negate the home made bullet thing. In fact, it will make it a non issue. Anything else than a slam dunk fear of life and it will be an issue.

That said, I've been loading 38special loads in magnum cases for years with no downside.

I like W231 and a 160g cast SWC, but load up anything you like and understand that when using a magnum case the 38special load will chronograph slightly slower due to the larger case volume. In general, 1/2 grain increase in powder eliminates this discrepancy, but as always, check load data and work up to everything you decide to load.

My load is 5g W231 under a cast 160g SWC for @ 900fps.

f4tweet

03-31-2009, 12:34 PM

I was told by a CCW instructor, never use reloads. First issue is reliability, second, the defense always spins increased lethality and increased damage with home made. Since I've been shooting 40+ years, it's all BS to me. But to a lawyer, it's an open door to liability claim. Your $$$$$. The gunshops have plenty of Defensive ammo. It's not worth the trouble. If you shoot somebody, call 911, tell them to send an ambulance, there's been a shooting, and hang up. When the Police arrive, say NOTHING. They can't use NOTHING against you in court. My .02

5hundo

03-31-2009, 12:57 PM

With the OP, Unique is an excellent powder for mid-range magnum loads. I think 5grs is too light, you'll need to bump it up, especially with jacketed bullets.

Yeah, I thought that I might...

Perhaps 6.0-6.5gr is a good place to start...

That's still under the suggested starting grains in my lyman book for the .357 though. I'm not sure how concerned I should be about detonation but better safe than sorry...

Though for home defense use, I would recommend Factory Loads. I think you can find some 110gr JHP, 125gr JHP or 135gr JHP, 38Special loads that would work for you. I think they are marketed at snubnose revolver loads.

We've tried a lot of different brands, bullet sizes and types. I'm not trying to pinch pennies, or anything. I even tried a box of really expensive +P loads but they were too heavy...

We've tried pretty much every round available at our local shops and there's nothing out there that has enough energy to suit me, yet still is controllable for her...

xbimmers

03-31-2009, 01:05 PM

I wouldn't do that. A lessor charge may leave the bullet stuck in the barrel. There are light .357 loads you can use. You can also cut the .357 cases to .38 size and use a light load. I was follow the data on the reloading manuals. Those charges are safe and light for the most part.

I'm loading up some home defense loads for my girlfriend and I want to try to adjust the power of the charge so that it's controllable for her, yet has good muzzle velocity and decent energy.

I chose a 125gr JHP from hornady because it's lighter and would stand to have some speed behind it. I was going to use unique, starting around 5.0gr and working up from there to about 7.0 - 8.0gr maximum...

I'm wondering if there is any risk of detonation using .357 casings for what will be .38 special loads. This might be a stupid question, but better safe than sorry...

...any input would be much appreciated. :thumbsup:

5hundo

03-31-2009, 01:09 PM

J-cat

03-31-2009, 08:12 PM

Does no one read?

The issue is of legality and lawsuits if you shot an intruder with home made reloads.

Stick with factory defense rounds. It will save you a bunch of lawyer money.

There is no issue in shooting an intruder with reloads. Reloads are legal to possess and use, even in self defense.

buffybuster

03-31-2009, 08:26 PM

We've tried pretty much every round available at our local shops and there's nothing out there that has enough energy to suit me, yet still is controllable for her...

I think this is somewhat an oxymoronic statement. You're wanting the best of both worlds....... high energy/power with low recoil/blast. I think there are a number of factory 38Special loads that may fit your needs which are specifically for short barreled revolvers that are easy to shoot and the bullet design makes them effective at the lower velocities.

Maybe the best balance of what you seek is either the new .327FedMag (100gr@1200fps) or the old .44Special (200-240gr@750fps). Small&Fast or Big& Slow.

ChrisXD45T

03-31-2009, 09:10 PM

Light loads in 357 mag are safe depending entirely upon which powder you use. The one downside is light loads have decreased accuracy in 357 mag cases in my experience. I'm a diehard 357 mag guy, and I'll probably get flamed for this, but the 357 is probably the least accurate of the magnum cartridges. That being said, get yourself something as case filling as possible and use about a half grain of fire retardant polyester pillow stuffing to fill the rest of the case and keep the powder back against the primer, when necessary. This will prevent the powder from sliding back and forth in the case causing inconsistent burning from round to round or from creating a situation where it will burn from front to back.
Use good hard cast 158 grain lead projectiles with these loads and regular small pistol primers. C.O.L. will depend upon which projos you use.
5.5-5.7gr of Unique or W231.
5.0-5.2gr of AA#2.
5.0grs of Titegroup.
These have given me the best accuracy as far as light loads go out of my S&W model-66 with 6" barrel; muzzle velocity is about 1,000 =/- fps with these loads. All grouped within 2.5" at 25 yards. Not what I would consider accurate when compared to my full power magnum loads, but adequate for home defense I suppose.

ejor

04-01-2009, 06:56 AM

I found unique works well in this situation my old speer manual lists 5.9g in a 38 special case as a +p 38spl. load at 997 fps

mike100

04-01-2009, 08:18 AM

I have made a few bags of 158 gr plated with magnum primers and 6.2 grains of Unique. It is just starting to get that magnum feel, but without the blast wave. You might be able to go lower..it's definitely more fun to shoot. I'd like to chrono it since light magnums have really sparked my interest compared to full power shooting.

I used all new components for a couple of batches and it is less powerful than store bought- plus, you really can't tell at a glance it isn't factory if you buy all matched components.

SDgarrick

04-01-2009, 02:02 PM

.38spl +P+ FTW!!! I've fired it alongside standard .357 loads and it was noticeably lighter. pick up a box, fire a few cylinders worth and park the box next to the gun.

mattman

04-01-2009, 10:54 PM

Does no one read?

The issue is of legality and lawsuits if you shot an intruder with home made reloads.

Stick with factory defense rounds. It will save you a bunch of lawyer money.

Show me a single lawsuit where it was even a factor, let alone a deciding factor.:mad:

5hundo

04-02-2009, 08:23 AM

Show me a single lawsuit where it was even a factor, let alone a deciding factor.:mad:

Or, how loading a round with less energy would give the prosecutor any leverage over me in a similar case... :rolleyes:

It's FUD...

DDT

04-02-2009, 08:57 AM

Justified self defense will do much to negate the home made bullet thing. In fact, it will make it a non issue. Anything else than a slam dunk fear of life and it will be an issue.

It may be a slam dunk to the DA but a civil jury may see it in a very different light. The burden of proof that you were itching to kill someone when a lesser method of restraint was available is not nearly as high in a civil court as in a criminal case.

mattman

04-02-2009, 09:02 AM

Besides if you didn't get them the first time and they take all your money then you might have a reason to try again.:44: But don't try that at home kids.

Spyduh

04-02-2009, 11:44 AM

Show me a single lawsuit where it was even a factor, let alone a deciding factor.:mad:

Regardless if you win/lose the case. You still have to defend yourself with a lawyer. Lawyer = $$$. IMHO, why make your lawyer work more hours defending you when you don't have to by using factory ammo.

It's your money, spend it how you like.

gunrun45

04-02-2009, 12:04 PM

Show me a single lawsuit where it was even a factor, let alone a deciding factor.:mad:

Are you guys serious about this?

Have none of you ever heard of distance determination using gunpowder residue patterns?

What can distance have to do with anything you ask? It can be the difference between justified homicide and murder.

Simple point in fact that HAS been used for only a few DECADES in determining the validity of a participant who has discharged a gun at another party.

There are literally THOUSANDS of cases across the WORLD where this has been used to prove or disprove your statement. Forget civil issues, we are talking about CRIMINAL prosecution.

-They WILL NOT use your reloading info as fact in court.
-They WILL NOT use the ammo found in the gun or near the gun as examplar ammo when shooting test patterns to determine distance.
-They WILL use some kind of FACTORY ammo that is as similar to yours as they can visually tell.

This is the EASIEST way to screw yourself into a corner that is easily avioded in the first place.

A Paradise CA Police Officer had this issue several years ago. It had nothing to do with the ammo but the clothing that the suspect was wearing and how the distance determination test was performed. The suspect was wearing a pleather matrix type jcaket but the test lab used white cotton cloth in the distance determination testing. The officer said he shot from 5-feet away but there was no trace of gunpowder on the nice smooth non-porus jacket. The testing at the lab indicated gunpowder patterning up to 15 feet away.

The officer was suspended and charges were discussed.

Later the lab realized the mistake, re-did the testing and found that the officer's statement was good.

Want to talk about a puckering experience? He had a defense team, police officers association, etc... backing him up and luckily he had some of the most professional lab technicians in the world working his case.

What do you have in your corner?

Spyduh

04-02-2009, 01:29 PM

He had a defense team, police officers association, etc... backing him up and luckily he had some of the most professional lab technicians in the world working his case.

What do you have in your corner?

+1 All that stuff cost a lot of money.

Like I said earlier to these guys. "It's their money". They can spend it how they like.

5hundo

04-02-2009, 01:43 PM

If you have any suggestions for a good home defense reload, I'd love to hear your thoughts...

If not, please don't thread-jack...

Thank you...

J-cat

04-02-2009, 07:39 PM

Are you guys serious about this?

Have none of you ever heard of distance determination using gunpowder residue patterns?

What can distance have to do with anything you ask? It can be the difference between justified homicide and murder.

Simple point in fact that HAS been used for only a few DECADES in determining the validity of a participant who has discharged a gun at another party.

There are literally THOUSANDS of cases across the WORLD where this has been used to prove or disprove your statement. Forget civil issues, we are talking about CRIMINAL prosecution.

-They WILL NOT use your reloading info as fact in court.
-They WILL NOT use the ammo found in the gun or near the gun as examplar ammo when shooting test patterns to determine distance.
-They WILL use some kind of FACTORY ammo that is as similar to yours as they can visually tell.

This is the EASIEST way to screw yourself into a corner that is easily avioded in the first place.

A Paradise CA Police Officer had this issue several years ago. It had nothing to do with the ammo but the clothing that the suspect was wearing and how the distance determination test was performed. The suspect was wearing a pleather matrix type jcaket but the test lab used white cotton cloth in the distance determination testing. The officer said he shot from 5-feet away but there was no trace of gunpowder on the nice smooth non-porus jacket. The testing at the lab indicated gunpowder patterning up to 15 feet away.

The officer was suspended and charges were discussed.

Later the lab realized the mistake, re-did the testing and found that the officer's statement was good.

Want to talk about a puckering experience? He had a defense team, police officers association, etc... backing him up and luckily he had some of the most professional lab technicians in the world working his case.

What do you have in your corner?

Read Penal Code Section 198.5

None of what you post is relevant in a home defense shooting.

If yoo choose to carry handloads outside your home, and maintain a record of what you put in them, then the crime lab will be able to easily replicate your ammo to determine GSR patterns/distance/etc.

J-cat

04-02-2009, 07:50 PM

If you have any suggestions for a good home defense reload, I'd love to hear your thoughts...

If not, please don't thread-jack...

Thank you...

There is no risk of detonation with non- H110/WW296 powders in reduced 357 loads.

Herco is a low-flash powder (while it's burning rate is similar to Blue Dot, it only makes a faint orange low) and quite filling. I like 125gr Speer Gold Dots. Work-up your own load.

5hundo

04-03-2009, 08:43 AM

There is no risk of detonation with non- H110/WW296 powders in reduced 357 loads.

Cool! So as long as I avoid these, I should be good...

Thanks man!!!

Herco is a low-flash powder (while it's burning rate is similar to Blue Dot, it only makes a faint orange low) and quite filling. I like 125gr Speer Gold Dots. Work-up your own load.

I don't have any Herco handy but I do have Unique, which is also an Alliant powder. I'm not sure how the burn rates compare but at this point, I'm thinking that Unique would be a better option than 231.

Thanks for your help!!!

gunrun45

04-03-2009, 10:41 AM

Read Penal Code Section 198.5

None of what you post is relevant in a home defense shooting.

If yoo choose to carry handloads outside your home, and maintain a record of what you put in them, then the crime lab will be able to easily replicate your ammo to determine GSR patterns/distance/etc.

You have no idea of what you speak. Take it from someone who teaches and has taught for 15 years crime scene investigation classes to law enforcement all over the US. I am a current member of the International Wound Ballistics Association, International Association of Law Enforcemenent Firearms Instructors Association, CA POST advanced firearms instructor in handguns, rifle, shotgun, short barrel rifle, short barrel shotgun and subguns as well as the same disciplins in the relevant NRA LE level.

If you want to argue with another expert try Massad Ayoob in his many articles regarding this situation and covered in depth in the chapter "Deffensive Handgun Ammunition Selection" of his book Combat Handgunnery (5th ed).

The example I gave was only one of MANY out there that has to do with the EVIDENCE, its presentation and how it could effect YOU.

That being said...

I would strongly sugest using Winchester or federal 115 grn load in 38+P+ SJHP rated at 1300fps. Not only is it a FACTORY load, it is the proves law enforcement round that has been used since the mid 80's through today by law enforcement across the US including the CHP, FBI, ATF, NYPD and is called the clasic "Illinois State Police Load". I would also recomend the Corbon powerball loading and the Speer Gold Dot snub nose loading if firing from a snubbie revolver.

This advice is given with the best of intentions in an effort to try and keep the INNOCENT out of more trouble than they deserve to encounter. If you don't want to take it, leave it for the next guy. If you want to call it "thread crapping" or whatever else, feel free to report me and all of my comments to a moderator. Somehow I don't think they will have any issue with my words here used in an effort to save you time and possible legal ramifications later on. I will not give any other advice to the author or other regarding the issue unless requested directly.

Good luck with your endevors.

Mike