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View Full Version : non-expired CA drivers license required to buy a gun


hossb7
03-30-2009, 4:54 PM
From here: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

(PC Section 12071)

how is it possible for the state to hinge a constitutional right on something thats a privileged? if you have an expired drivers license the only thing that prevents is the DRIVING aspect - it's still a completely valid form of identification!

this would be an easy win for CA.

paging bwiese, paging bwiese

Vacaville
03-30-2009, 5:04 PM
I think getting the ID is a right, not a privilege like the license.

5150Marcelo
03-30-2009, 5:09 PM
EXPIRED means "no bueno/ no good"

Expired = Not Valid

bohoki
03-30-2009, 5:14 PM
yea if my id expires does that make me no longer a citizen?

i see where you are going but it is a steep hill

Spyder
03-30-2009, 5:49 PM
Did you miss "or Identification Card"?

VW*Mike
03-30-2009, 5:51 PM
You can always get an ID if you are legal. Maybe not a DL (i.e. bad record, suspended, etc) but you have to have an ID by law IIRC. If you let ti expire, that is YOUR fault not the states. I just about strangled my fiancee when we were at the airport getting ready to fly to Seattle and she then figured out her CA license had expired two weeks prior. After much convincing to TSA they let her on the plane with a warning............ Then in Seattle, I was drinking alone since most bars wouldn't take her expired out of state ID!

Shane916
03-30-2009, 5:52 PM
Did you miss "or Identification Card"?

+1 . Identification (ID) cards

DMV issues ID cards to persons of any age. The ID card looks like a driver license, but is used for identification purposes only

Smokey510
03-30-2009, 6:14 PM
I never understood why the expiration date on a drivers license matters for identification purposes. So, uh, if my ID expires, does that mean my birthday changes and I'm not old enough to buy booze again?

Shane916
03-30-2009, 6:16 PM
I never understood why the expiration date on a drivers license matters for identification purposes. So, uh, if my ID expires, does that mean my birthday changes and I'm not old enough to buy booze again?

It must be current to purchase alcohol :)

pat038536
03-30-2009, 6:40 PM
Does the card being expired make the information on the face of it incorrect somehow? Like that's not my picture, or birth date? Whose to say that an unexpired ID/DL actually has factual information on it anyhow.

I remember the check-card commercials with Martin Sheen & Charlie..
"That doesn't look like you"
"It did 10 minutes ago"

The Tech-1
03-30-2009, 6:46 PM
it has to be current to be considered valid.

Eroland7
03-30-2009, 6:49 PM
it has to be current to be considered valid.


+1 :thumbsup:

PolishMike
03-30-2009, 6:59 PM
I never understood why the expiration date on a drivers license matters for identification purposes. So, uh, if my ID expires, does that mean my birthday changes and I'm not old enough to buy booze again?

Usually they automatically send you a new one (assuming that all fees are paid) and the old one no longer works so that if you give it to your little brother or sell it to someone that looks like you it will not work.

XDshooter
03-30-2009, 8:20 PM
I never understood why the expiration date on a drivers license matters for identification purposes. So, uh, if my ID expires, does that mean my birthday changes and I'm not old enough to buy booze again?


Exactly.

This is the stupidest **** I've ever encountered. I go to get beer, and the dude asks for my ID. I give it to him and looks at it for a while. Then he proceeds to scan it in the ID scanner.

It comes in error. He tries it again and then notices that my ID had expired a few days prior and tells me he can't sell me the beer.

WTF! HOW DOES AN EXPIRATION DATE MAKE ME NOT OVER THE AGE 21?

Doheny
03-30-2009, 8:39 PM
From here: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php



how is it possible for the state to hinge a constitutional right on something thats a privileged? if you have an expired drivers license the only thing that prevents is the DRIVING aspect - it's still a completely valid form of identification!

Seems like having a valid DL isn't too much to ask, unless you plan to walk to the gun store.

djleisure
03-30-2009, 9:22 PM
Either way, it's called "personal responsibility" - get some.

Spyder
03-30-2009, 9:25 PM
Hahaha. Excellent answer djleisure.

I don't get the "expired id is no longer good" argument either. Especially seeing as how the argument is "if its expired, its no longer valid." We understand that, but WHY is it no longer valid?

But, again, its one of those things that I just take at face value and say "eh, whatever. I'll just...keep mine...imagine this...VALID!" :D

Scotty
03-30-2009, 9:37 PM
A valid driver's license or ID card proves that you are still a legal resident of this state.

hossb7
03-30-2009, 9:43 PM
my bad about the whole expired thing, that makes more sense.

however, CA can still put you in a type of "limbo" situation and hold the gun you're buying if your license is suspended.

is that not grounds for lawsuit?

Eroland7
03-30-2009, 9:45 PM
is that not grounds for lawsuit?

seriously? Sue the state because you foolishly tried to buy a gun in california without a VALID ID?? Good luck...

ZirconJohn
03-30-2009, 10:09 PM
From Random House Webster's College Dictionary:

expire
—expirer, n.
/ik spuyeur"/, v., expired, expiring.
v.i.
1. to come to an end; terminate.
2. to emit the last breath; die.
3. to breathe out.
v.t.
4. to breathe out (air) from the lungs.
5. Archaic. to emit.
[1375-1425; late ME < L ex(s) pirare to breathe out, come to an end = ex- EX-[1] + spirare to breathe]

As a former bartender; an expired drivers license quite literally means 'dead' as in 'does not exist', ergo when you produce an expired drivers license; the card, the picture, and the information on it is NOT acceptable and therefore does not pertain to your request for proof id I.D. since the proof of your identification is your responsibility, and NOT the responsibility of the person or business of whom/which you are presenting the 'expired' ID.

Now, with that said... NO is NO, when you are turned down and you are told 'NO!' An argument, or an explanation, or a cry baby wah-wah isn't going to get the decision turned around. Again, no... means no.

I know you are still young and you don't understand; okay, no means no... understand now?

I have grown extremely tired and more non-caring when it comes to this issue. You have read it before, you know the law, the rule, the reasons, and you have cried before and you were turned down then, you are turned down now, today, here as you read this, and you will be turned down again and again and I hope it's me who does it to you.

The ones that I love the most are the ones, the guys what embarrass themselves in front of they dang girlfriend... I love it, and know that I am laughing inside at the fool you make yourself in front of her!

Now stop this childish behavior and grow up, please. I seriously want to say please as in respect... and sorry, very sorry for my rant. You just have to understand that this is law, and you really should 'know' this, so please, okay.

Especially NOT going to buy a gun with an expired CDL, or expired CA ID Card... DO NOT get me started!

Thank you.

hossb7
03-30-2009, 10:27 PM
seriously? Sue the state because you foolishly tried to buy a gun in california without a VALID ID?? Good luck...

uh no, read what i said again.

i'm talking about delaying your firearm purchase for a suspended license.

ZirconJohn
03-30-2009, 11:34 PM
suspend /seuhspend"/
v.t.
1. to hang by attachment to something above, esp. so as to allow free movement.
2. to keep from falling or sinking, as if by hanging: to suspend particles in a liquid.
3. to keep undetermined; refrain from concluding definitely: to suspend judgment.
4. to defer or postpone: to suspend a sentence for robbery.
5. to bring to a stop, usu. for a time: to suspend payment.
6. to cause to cease for a time from operation or effect, as a law, privilege, or service: to suspend ferry service.
7. to debar, usu. for a limited time, from office, membership, school attendance, etc., esp. as a punishment.
8. to prolong (a musical tone) into the next chord.
9. to keep in a state of expectation or suspense.
v.i.
10. to come to a stop or cease from operation, usu. temporarily.
11. to stop payment; be unable to meet financial obligations.
12. to hang or be suspended.
[1250-1300; ME < L suspendere to hang up = sus- SUS - + pendere (transit.) to hang]

No means NO!

In this case you would NEED to obtain an CA-ID Card... preferable one that is valid, as in NOT expired.

Now, even though your CDL is 'suspended', the CA-ID card will work for the purpose of firearm purchase, and will get you by the ever-sharp bartender... key here again is 'valid date' on the ID.

Again, sorry for my stern frustration... it's an old tension spring, has a lot of pent-up tension from this here issue - 'been there/done that!'

Take care.

cousinkix1953
03-31-2009, 12:30 AM
You can always get an ID if you are legal. Maybe not a DL (i.e. bad record, suspended, etc) but you have to have an ID by law IIRC. If you let ti expire, that is YOUR fault not the states. I just about strangled my fiancee when we were at the airport getting ready to fly to Seattle and she then figured out her CA license had expired two weeks prior. After much convincing to TSA they let her on the plane with a warning............ Then in Seattle, I was drinking alone since most bars wouldn't take her expired out of state ID!
Not if our corrupt rulers get their way. Expect to see another Kalifornia drivers license bill for illegal aliens from sen Gil Cedillo. They will use them to register and vote. You are a racist if you suggest that these little plastic cards be marked, so they cannot be used to buy a gun in the stores, which is against federal law too...

383green
03-31-2009, 6:10 AM
When I passed my tests to upgrade from my previous Class C DL to a Class A Commercial DL, the DMV took away my old DL and handed me a flimsy piece of paper from a thermal printer. Until my new laminated license card arrived a couple months later, I was unable to buy any guns. The paper temporary license was not considered valid ID for purposes of buying a gun. So, here's a concrete example of somebody being denied a basic constitutional right through bureaucratic fiat, not by being too lazy or stupid to renew their license.

To those of you who have little or no sympathy for people with an expired DL, I understand that you are forced to follow the laws which state that you may not accept an expired DL as identification, but that doesn't make the laws reasonable or fair.

There's at least a tiny bit of validity to the point that an unexpired DL may be considered adequate proof of state of residence (and only a tiny bit, because a person can easily live in a different state than their DL is issued in for a long time after moving, if they fail to get a new DL, and they lie about how long they've been in-state if they get pulled over for a ticket), but in the cases where a simple proof of age is needed there isn't much of a leg to stand on. So, they might give their expired license to their little brother? Well, they could just as easily loan their unexpired license to their little brother so he could buy beer.

glockwise2000
03-31-2009, 6:39 AM
This is a good point. Last time I voted on the local election, they didn't even required everybody to present their ID or DL card. They did insist of not showing it to them and telling us that it would be a burden local or state to verify the process. Then they would ask you to card if you purchase a gun?

Talking about rights.:confused:

scott.cr
03-31-2009, 7:16 AM
The DOJ will deny your firearm approval if your CDL is expired EVEN IF you have another valid government ID.

I went through this hoopla with J&J Armory about 18 months ago. They even showed me the DOJ denial.

halifax
03-31-2009, 7:32 AM
The DOJ will deny your firearm approval if your CDL is expired EVEN IF you have another valid government ID.

I went through this hoopla with J&J Armory about 18 months ago. They even showed me the DOJ denial.

That doesn't sound right. Did the dealer scan your expired DL into the DROS software by mistake? He would've needed to choose between MIL ID, CA ID, or CA DL on the drop-down menu.

I hope you got it worked out.

cineski
03-31-2009, 8:27 AM
Yup, I remember when I got a CA drivers license after moving here. They put a punch hole over my birthdate and the new license wasn't coming for 4 weeks. Went to buy some alcohol w/out thinking about my license and boom, no alcohol for you! Not for 4 weeks until my card came or my friends could buy it for me.

It must be current to purchase alcohol :)

ZirconJohn
03-31-2009, 9:52 AM
When I passed my tests to upgrade from my previous Class C DL to a Class A Commercial DL, the DMV took away my old DL and handed me a flimsy piece of paper from a thermal printer. Until my new laminated license card arrived a couple months later, I was unable to buy any guns. The paper temporary license was not considered valid ID for purposes of buying a gun. So, here's a concrete example of somebody being denied a basic constitutional right through bureaucratic fiat, not by being too lazy or stupid to renew their license.

To those of you who have little or no sympathy for people with an expired DL, I understand that you are forced to follow the laws which state that you may not accept an expired DL as identification, but that doesn't make the laws reasonable or fair.

There's at least a tiny bit of validity to the point that an unexpired DL may be considered adequate proof of state of residence (and only a tiny bit, because a person can easily live in a different state than their DL is issued in for a long time after moving, if they fail to get a new DL, and they lie about how long they've been in-state if they get pulled over for a ticket), but in the cases where a simple proof of age is needed there isn't much of a leg to stand on. So, they might give their expired license to their little brother? Well, they could just as easily loan their unexpired license to their little brother so he could buy beer.

Have to agree with you there 383... the temporary ID or DL does have an expiration date on it, it is considered valid for the purpose of issue. Moreover, [if] you have the expired, or replaced ID with expiration date punched out etc. The temporary [paper] ID corresponds with the now replaced hard copy, there is a distinct parallel etc... I concur, should be okay!

I have allowed this type proof of age ID at my bar, I am a by the book bartender and have a reputation for strict attention to lawful proof of age ID, but I'll work with you if your attitude doesn't stink, I can be a jerk behind the bar but that's just part of the job... however, being pretty w/ a nice figure can be a plus for you:thumbsup:

Now; for firearm purchase, there is NO variance of the law, no breaking of the law, and hence no bending of the law for that matter. In this case don't gonna matter how pretty you are, or if'n y'all have a great figure... this a firearm purchase and FFL Dealer is, as Al Pacino in Scareface put it so eloquently "...You got'da 'freaking' Navy all over the place, you got frogmen, you got EC-2's wit dat satellite tracking 'stuff' in them, Bell-209 Assault Choppers up the 'kazoo', that's no duck-walk anymore...":rofl2: OMG, I love that movie! Well, being an FFL Dealer "...is NO duck-walk...":smilielol5: So, anyway... we doing what we can to work with you (the good FFL's anyway), please try and see from our perspective sometimes... now, I'm gonna go eat me some duck-food!:seeya:

SanSacto
03-31-2009, 9:57 AM
It must be current to purchase alcohol :)

Yep. The snobby bouncer at the bar the other night told me my ID was expired and said I couldnt come in. I told him to read it again and get it right, because it is valid until 9/09. Dooor man......

Redchevyman
03-31-2009, 10:34 AM
Last year I renewed my drivers license 2 weeks before it expired. I was given a temp paper license and still had my original. When i tried to purchase a gun the day after my birthday I presented my expired license and the valid temp extension at the gun store. The store made copies of both documents and started the dros. A few days later the store called me and said the dros had been denied because a temp license is not acceptable for buying a gun. I had to wait a couple of weeks more for my new ID and repay the dros.

Flopper
03-31-2009, 10:52 AM
A valid driver's license or ID card proves that you are still a legal resident of this state.
not true.

since DL's don't expire for several years, you could easily have an unexpired DL and not be a resident of the state.

that's the reason we have to provide a current utility bill, phone bill, or vehicle registration when purchasing a handgun.

ZirconJohn
03-31-2009, 11:11 AM
Last year I renewed my drivers license 2 weeks before it expired. I was given a temp paper license and still had my original. When i tried to purchase a gun the day after my birthday I presented my expired license and the valid temp extension at the gun store. The store made copies of both documents and started the dros. A few days later the store called me and said the dros had been denied because a temp license is not acceptable for buying a gun. I had to wait a couple of weeks more for my new ID and repay the dros.

Well, similar thing happened to me one time. I ran a doggone DROS without reading the expiration date on the DL, I NEVER do that, I never NOT read the expiration date on DL or ID card. This one time (lo and behold - right!?!), I was so dat-gum busy havin' fun and'a yap-yap-yappin' my jaw that... well, I messed up!

The DL was expired of only about a couple weeks, client wasn't aware of expired DL... can happen to anybody.

So, here's the deal... after he leaves my shop I realize the expired date on the 4473 (I know... I DON'T want to hear it, I still whoopin' myself over this one!) and so I called my client and explained to him the situation. I immediately cancelled the DROS. Now, when he came back a few weeks later with a hard copy 'valid date' DL... I messed-up in fail to read the expiration date the first time... my error, my pay and lesson lernt! That's just my business practice. Besides, cancelled DROS is no charge from DOJ.. but I would'a paid $25 anyway.

In my opinion, the FFL should have paid your DROS-fee for their error. They should have known the law. You handed them a DMV Temporary License indicating the hard-copy expiration, they should not have ran your DROS. Again, business' make they own rules and stuff, this only my opinion. They should have not charged you to re-submit your DROS after their error.

McCrown
03-31-2009, 12:02 PM
This is a good point. Last time I voted on the local election, they didn't even required everybody to present their ID or DL card. They did insist of not showing it to them and telling us that it would be a burden local or state to verify the process. Then they would ask you to card if you purchase a gun?

Talking about rights.:confused:

This is a big B**** of mine, last election I went to vote and told the people that I just grabbed this document out of a mail box and you don't even know if I am the one registered at this address to vote. They just laughed and handed me a ballot without checking any ID.

Smokey510
03-31-2009, 4:48 PM
Either way, it's called "personal responsibility" - get some.

I have some. And a valid license. I just never understood the reason behind the info on said license not being valid once it expires. It should be good for life, unless the picture doesn't look like you anymore.

Not complaining, just saying...

bohoki
03-31-2009, 7:47 PM
I have some. And a valid license. I just never understood the reason behind the info on said license not being valid once it expires. It should be good for life, unless the picture doesn't look like you anymore.

Not complaining, just saying...

it is a kind of logical conundrum like say you have a driverslicence that expires on your 21st birthday and you try to buy beer with it

since it is expired wouldn't it be defacto proof that you are 21

eddie_from_sac
04-21-2011, 1:05 PM
NVM i had a question and it was addressed. didn't see it earlier :/

12voltguy
04-21-2011, 3:19 PM
Does the card being expired make the information on the face of it incorrect somehow? Like that's not my picture, or birth date? Whose to say that an unexpired ID/DL actually has factual information on it anyhow.

I remember the check-card commercials with Martin Sheen & Charlie..
"That doesn't look like you"
"It did 10 minutes ago"

state of CA that is who;):TFH::TFH::TFH:

SVT-40
04-21-2011, 4:29 PM
That doesn't sound right. Did the dealer scan your expired DL into the DROS software by mistake? He would've needed to choose between MIL ID, CA ID, or CA DL on the drop-down menu.

I hope you got it worked out.


As above


If you use your DL as ID it will fail on a DROS if it's expired or suspended.

Your issue would be with the FFL. Because they have the option to state on a DROS whether the ID you are using is a Calif ID card or drivers license. If you had a expired DL, and also had a current Calif ID card they could use the Id card for the DROS. Thy would need to use the proper method of entry which notes DL or ID.

Taxidave
04-21-2011, 5:53 PM
It is always a good practice to have both a CA ID & DL with staggered expiration dates. That way you always have something valid to use as ID for whatever reason, instead of something to B*$%#@ about.
The fact remains that on one hand you could try to cash a check at a bank and they refuse because your ID is expired. On the other you hold up the bank and drop the expired ID in the process, try telling the feds that the ID is expired and invalid so it cannot be you that held up the bank!:no:

akraemer3
06-25-2011, 6:29 AM
Tried to buy a hand gun last week. Was not able to because my drivers license was expired. I gave the Dealer my copy of my extension for the drivers License valid till July 15th. Dealer said he could not use it as it had to be a hard copy of the drivers license. I applied for my drivers license back in March of 2011 and it expired May 3 of 2011. California has created this mess with the change over to the new Lic. Dealer also stated that the Company has quit make the Lic. because of nonpayment from the state. So how is my copy of my drivers license and the extension not valid ID. DOJ?

Paul S
06-25-2011, 3:41 PM
"non-expired" Gotta love governmentese. How about current or valid instead?

Yeah I know...government and common sense..never the twain shall meet.

Andy Taylor
06-25-2011, 5:59 PM
From here: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php



how is it possible for the state to hinge a constitutional right on something thats a privileged? if you have an expired drivers license the only thing that prevents is the DRIVING aspect - it's still a completely valid form of identification!

this would be an easy win for CA.

paging bwiese, paging bwiese

Can't use it to buy alcohol either.

Andy Taylor
06-25-2011, 6:01 PM
I never understood why the expiration date on a drivers license matters for identification purposes. So, uh, if my ID expires, does that mean my birthday changes and I'm not old enough to buy booze again?

It may be easier to get your big brother's expired ID, than the one he is using now. Also, as time goes on security featured are added/changed. An older ID is easier to counterfit than a new one.

diginit
06-25-2011, 7:12 PM
An expired DL in no longer a valid form of ID. Like an expried credit, greencard or insurance. It is invalid. If you didn't renew as EVERYONE else does. Sorry, It is no one's fault but your own.
An expired DL means that the State didn't get another $35 from you. So you're FK'ed. Pretty simple,huh... Conform or eat sh*t. As per Ca. Law. Do you understand what I'm really saying?$?

Toy4Rick
06-26-2011, 4:56 PM
My daughter is a waitress and SHE is liable if she serves someone who presents an expired license, fined $3,000, maybe jail, the restaurant is also fined, looses their liquor license for 30 days, then she looses her job automatically. Some customers get very angry, yelling and screaming, what do they think, she wrote the law?

Just accept it and get it straightened out before you really need it

Toy4Rick

radioman
06-26-2011, 6:46 PM
This is an oldie, what it come's down to is this, we are sheep being shorn, my first CA DL was three dollars, that was way back in 1973, the last was way to much! IN AZ they are good until your 65, it's a con job by the state that your ID go's tits up every four years, like most things in this state, but we take it, you know where, and we must like it as we let them every time they want to, bend over, your next.

uyoga
06-26-2011, 7:14 PM
Asking out of sheer ignorance . . . Does the "California Identification Card" have an expiration date?

diginit
06-26-2011, 8:35 PM
In most states, Their lawmakers only find it necessary to hold assembly 3 months a year. In Ca, They work year round. If they don't waste our tax dollars inventing more do nothing laws, They get bored...and don't make enough money for themselves...The entire CA system needs a revamp. If this happens, We won't have to lay off firefighters or police. Just legislators. Hey Jerry! Get A Clue! What is really more important? Your staff or Public safety?

gozuki
06-27-2011, 6:50 AM
Asking out of sheer ignorance . . . Does the "California Identification Card" have an expiration date?

Yes, on your birthday, in 5 years.