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View Full Version : Adding a second long-gun to a DROS at pick-up time


Ground Loop
03-28-2009, 11:53 AM
There are several dealers in SoCal that offer me the option of adding a second or third long-gun (rifle/shotgun) to my completed DROS after the 10-day wait.

It's an offer I can seldom refuse.. come in to pick up a new shotgun, and any other one is cash-and-carry that same day. There is no added DROS fee, and no additional waiting. (Having just completed the 10-day wait.) I've done this multiple times, at different dealers, and have no reason to think any part of it was sketchy or undocumented -- it's always fully spelled out on the forms like any other sale.

There are also dealers that will NOT do this.
One dealer claims that there is no legal way to ammend a DROS to 'correct' the quantity, and they assert that other dealers are somehow skirting/violating BATFE rules by doing this.

I'm just a customer, and don't know what forms or rules are involved.

I would like to understand the process or paperwork that allows this, so that I can perhaps educate my favorite FFL and see if they too will extend this offer.

Does anyone have a detailed understanding of how this +1 is performed?

Thanks!

PolishMike
03-28-2009, 11:57 AM
From what I understand you can only add another long gun during the ten day wait, not after.

Blackhawk556
03-28-2009, 11:58 AM
i thought that was illegal. the place where i buy my guns at they say i have to start another 10 day wait if i want another gun after that.

hawk1
03-28-2009, 12:03 PM
From what I recall, when you do your first DROS you need to tell them you're buying two or more long guns. Then at pick up it can be edited to show only one or any amount less being purchased. You can never add one after the fact but can buy less than you had originally claimed.

Ground Loop
03-28-2009, 12:04 PM
Thus the reason for my query. :)

I have, in at least two instances, picked up a gun at 11-15 Days, added a second one, and walked out with both. If this was not fully legal, I can't imagine either FFL doing it, since they are very strict by-the-book paperwork experts. I believe they have a process that works for them, and I'd like to understand it better so that more FFLs can participate.

Ground Loop
03-28-2009, 12:05 PM
hawk1: Very interesting. Is it possible that these FFLs always file with "3" from the start, correcting downward for each customer that declines the offer? Is there any rule prohibiting that?

PolishMike
03-28-2009, 12:08 PM
hawk1: Very interesting. Is it possible that these FFLs always file with "3" from the start, correcting downward for each customer that declines the offer? Is there any rule prohibiting that?

That would be a real headache for the FFL, plus possibly illegal.

dustoff31
03-28-2009, 12:09 PM
There are also dealers that will NOT do this.
One dealer claims that there is no legal way to ammend a DROS to 'correct' the quantity, and they assert that other dealers are somehow skirting/violating BATFE rules by doing this.

We know this is BS as DROS is a CA thing, and BATFE has nothing to do with it.

Ground Loop
03-28-2009, 12:10 PM
Good point dustoff31, but it's entirely my mistake. The FFL just said they wouldn't/couldn't do this because they believe it's against the rules. I added the "BATFE" part in error.

mrhappy
03-28-2009, 12:19 PM
I recently transferred a rifle through a So Cal shop, and while completing the DROS I looked at a shotgun they had. After I returned home, I discussed the possible purchase with the Minister of Finance (spouse), and got the thumbs up. I called the next day asked if they would take a deposit to hold the shotgun, and they said no deposit we'll put your name on it. Day 13 is the first day I can pick up my transferred DROS'd rifle; pay for the shotgun, no new DROS, no new wait. I was pleasantly surprised, as I fully expected to start the waiting game again. Walked out with a two guns.

ke6guj
03-28-2009, 12:28 PM
That would be a real headache for the FFL, plus possibly illegal.I've heard that they are allowed to edit downward, but not upward. Think about this, say a guy actually did purchase 3 long guns, but before the end of the 10-day wait, decided not to buy 1 or 2 of them. Maybe they needed the money, or a defect was noted on a firearm. DO they cancell the entire DROS and make the guy start over, or do they just edit the DROS paperwork? Remember, its not like a handgun DROS where each handgun has its own DROS.

sreiter
03-28-2009, 3:16 PM
i add one in the middle of my wait - no problem, walked out with two

CHS
03-28-2009, 3:40 PM
When you type in the quantity of firearms on the DROS, that is used for statistical purposes only.

For a long gun purchase, the only real important stuff on the DROS is your ID/DL information for processing the background check.

The only place where it matters what the quantity/type/SN's of the guns is, is on the 4473. When someone comes to pick up, you can add more long guns to the 4473. The fact that they transferred "1" long gun on the DROS form doesn't matter since the DROS information is destroyed after 15 days anyways.

Matt@EntrepriseArms
03-28-2009, 5:48 PM
When you type in the quantity of firearms on the DROS, that is used for statistical purposes only.

For a long gun purchase, the only real important stuff on the DROS is your ID/DL information for processing the background check.

The only place where it matters what the quantity/type/SN's of the guns is, is on the 4473. When someone comes to pick up, you can add more long guns to the 4473. The fact that they transferred "1" long gun on the DROS form doesn't matter since the DROS information is destroyed after 15 days anyways.

Not true. See these instructions listed on the 4473:

10. Additional firearms purchases by the same buyer may not be added to the form
after the seller has signed and dated it. A buyer who wishes to purchase additional
firearms after the seller has signed and dated the form must complete a new
ATF F 4473. The seller must conduct a new NICS check on this transaction.

ke6guj
03-28-2009, 6:00 PM
Not true. See these instructions listed on the 4473:

10. Additional firearms purchases by the same buyer may not be added to the form
after the seller has signed and dated it. A buyer who wishes to purchase additional
firearms after the seller has signed and dated the form must complete a new
ATF F 4473. The seller must conduct a new NICS check on this transaction.Does tht take into account that us in CA must sign and date the 4473 twice? That our 4473 is not complete until after the 10-day wait. When does the seller sign and date the 4473, at time of initial DROS, or when it is picked up? AFAIK, I've never seen the seller fill in the firearms info when I started DROS, but it gets filled out sometime during my 10-day wait.

Sounds like that is more for those in states that you can cash-and-carry after NICS. That a person would come back in the next day and want to "add" a firearm to his previous 4473.

SirGlockALott
03-28-2009, 6:03 PM
good deal

CHS
03-28-2009, 6:08 PM
Does tht take into account that us in CA must sign and date the 4473 twice? That our 4473 is not complete until after the 10-day wait. When does the seller sign and date the 4473, at time of initial DROS, or when it is picked up? AFAIK, I've never seen the seller fill in the firearms info when I started DROS, but it gets filled out sometime during my 10-day wait.

Sounds like that is more for those in states that you can cash-and-carry after NICS. That a person would come back in the next day and want to "add" a firearm to his previous 4473.

Yeah, what he said.

You have to sign and date the 4473 twice. Once to certify the information you've filled out is accurate and true, and once again afterward when the actual firearm(s) are transferred to you.

tenpercentfirearms
03-28-2009, 6:55 PM
Not true. See these instructions listed on the 4473:

10. Additional firearms purchases by the same buyer may not be added to the form
after the seller has signed and dated it. A buyer who wishes to purchase additional
firearms after the seller has signed and dated the form must complete a new
ATF F 4473. The seller must conduct a new NICS check on this transaction.

This is the key. Note it says seller has signed it. I, a seller, only sign your 4473 on your day of pick up. So according to the Feds, we can add as many long guns as we want until I sign the 4473.

Now, by phone the DOJ claims you cannot add guns to DROS; however, you can reduce guns on DROS. This makes no sense unless one takes into consideration the DOJ just wants extra DROS dollars.

I follow written federal rules and disregard verbal DOJ BS. I simply cross out the number on the hard copy DROS and put in the correct number.

DDT
03-28-2009, 10:02 PM
I've done this at one of the local SJ gun shops. Came in to pick up a firearm and made impulse buy of OLL receiver and carried it home with me that day. It was nice, they were actually in stock, no small feat 3 months ago.

Eroland7
03-28-2009, 10:14 PM
Yup, numerous times at a few local gun shops when i came in after my ten day wait to pick up a gun they ask if i would like to pick up any other firearm without the dros... Cash and carry...

Matt@EntrepriseArms
03-28-2009, 11:32 PM
Yeah, what he said.

You have to sign and date the 4473 twice. Once to certify the information you've filled out is accurate and true, and once again afterward when the actual firearm(s) are transferred to you.

Now how did I know you guys would immediately assume that the second signature is the one the instructions were referring to, and not the first?

Until the ATF says so, I'm not going to assume anything except that the first signature counts. Why you may ask? Well, did you know all forms filled out must be retained, even if the transferee never picked up or "signed for" (second signature) their firearm? Any transaction attempted has to be kept.

Plus, I'm sure that they weren't granting California a special privilege just because we have to wait 10 days before pickup, unlike other states who can get it the same day. I'm sure we would like to think so, but some how I doubt it.....

The key here is this is a FEDERAL FORM, not State. It applies to all 50 states, and does not take into account the various waiting or no wait periods. We use the DROS here in California, not NCIS. No big deal, the whole wait period is a state to state thing.

Another thing is that when you fill out the E-4473 form (the downloadable form for computer), you must type in all firearm make, model, serial number, and total number of firearms before being allowed to proceed to the next step. It seems that if you were allowed to add as many firearms as you want at a later date, you wouldn't have to do so. So once the number of firearms is entered in, it isn't quite kosher to go back and cross that out later and write in another number, is it?

What I'm suspecting here is that many FFL dealers haven't thoroughly read all those pages of instructions on the 4473. You wouldn't think so, but after working in this business for a little while now, nothing surprises me anymore.

But I guess someone should call up the ATF and ask them, right? Then we can really know the answer.

Ground Loop
03-28-2009, 11:43 PM
I don't know if it's directly related, but I've also found that some FFL shops will allow me to start the paperwork and 10-day wait while a long-gun (never handgun) is "on order" and the serial number is unknown.

Other shops will wait until the long-gun is in-hand before starting DROS, requiring another trip up there and a late start for the 10 day wait.

Those dealers that start the paperwork while ordering the gun appear to complete it on pickup, with the serial number and such.

In my experience, MOST dealers will do this (DROS an unknown serial number long-gun) and allow a late-add of +1 or +2. That is, it seems to be the rule rather than the exception, at least around here. I wouldn't like to see that change, so perhaps direct questions to the govt offices aren't such a good idea.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-29-2009, 12:37 AM
Now how did I know you guys would immediately assume that the second signature is the one the instructions were referring to, and not the first?

The instructions are not referring to to first signature of the buyer nor to the second signature of the buyer. They are refering to the only signature of the seller.

tenpercentfirearms
03-29-2009, 6:17 AM
The instructions are not referring to to first signature of the buyer nor to the second signature of the buyer. They are refering to the only signature of the seller.

Dead on. The first time I read it I thought the same thing. Then I realized that I, the seller, only sign the paper once. PERIOD. So until I sign the 4473, which is not until the person picks up, that 4473 can have guns added. It can't get any clearer than the instruction printed on there.

I don't have E-4473 so I could care less what it does and it is not the law, it is computer software.

The only question is are dealers violating CA law in putting down 1 long gun on DROS and then crossing it out and putting 2 later on? Show me some Penal Code or CCR where I am and I will stop.

fairfaxjim
03-29-2009, 2:47 PM
I know these guys are not known for correct or concise info, but here is a response from the CA DOJ BOE on that question that I received:
Mr. XXXXX

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Firearms, regarding Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) transactions for long gun sales. It is permissible to change the number of long guns on a DROS at the actual time of initiating the purchase. If already submitted, you can a fax a DROS Cancellation or Correction Form to the Bureau of Firearms Denial Review Unit at (916) 227 - 3744 to reflect the correct quantity of long guns. This applies only to the initial time of purchase, i.e., when the 4473 is filled out. Once the customer leaves the store after initiating a purchase, any subsequent sale of a long gun would be considered a separate DROS transaction.

I hope this information is helpful to you. If you have any further questions or need further assistance, please contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887, or via e-mail.


Sincerely,

Brent George
Staff Services Analyst
California Department of Justice
Division of Law Enforcement
Bureau of Firearms
Training, Information, and Compliance Section

(916) 263 - 4868

I personally have no idea where they got that policy - I find no law or reg that supports it, but for what it is worth, that seems to be the BOF's party line. I personally know of dealers that allow adding long guns, right up to the time of pick up.

gd-bh
03-29-2009, 3:13 PM
I personally have no idea where they got that policy - I find no law or reg that supports it, but for what it is worth, that seems to be the BOF's party line. I personally know of dealers that allow adding long guns, right up to the time of pick up.

Hmm...if true, wouldn't that be another "underground regulation"? We know they'd never engage in that practice would they?

Richie Rich
03-30-2009, 12:01 PM
I have seen a couple of interesting things done by FFL in regards to this.

Been told that a second long gun can be added up until walking out the door after completing 10 day wait.

Been told that I would have to wait another 10 days after for second firearm (by same store).

And a friend purchasing a gun started DROS with a "placeholder" S/N for a gun that was not yet in stock. Once in stock it was "ammended" to show the proper S/N. Gun showed up 3-4 days after initiation of DROS, was picked up 10 days after initial DROS.

Kosher?

Dr Rockso
03-30-2009, 12:09 PM
And a friend purchasing a gun started DROS with a "placeholder" S/N for a gun that was not yet in stock. Once in stock it was "ammended" to show the proper S/N. Gun showed up 3-4 days after initiation of DROS, was picked up 10 days after initial DROS.

Kosher?
For a long gun, it should be fine. If you buy a long gun online and have it shipped to a FFL, they can start the 10-day wait before they receive the gun. They wouldn't have the S/N then, either. I was told that this does not apply to handguns, which they must have in their possession before the 10-day wait starts.

rbgaynor
03-30-2009, 12:13 PM
I don't know if it's directly related, but I've also found that some FFL shops will allow me to start the paperwork and 10-day wait while a long-gun (never handgun) is "on order" and the serial number is unknown.

Other shops will wait until the long-gun is in-hand before starting DROS, requiring another trip up there and a late start for the 10 day wait.

Those dealers that start the paperwork while ordering the gun appear to complete it on pickup, with the serial number and such.

In my experience, MOST dealers will do this (DROS an unknown serial number long-gun) and allow a late-add of +1 or +2. That is, it seems to be the rule rather than the exception, at least around here. I wouldn't like to see that change, so perhaps direct questions to the govt offices aren't such a good idea.

There is no serial number on a long gun DROS. I have dealers who will let me start long gun paperwork early, the only caveat is that if the DROS expires before the gun arrives you will usually be responsible for the fees on both the first and the second DROS.