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xLusi0n
03-27-2009, 3:45 PM
So in regards to CA AW laws...there's no constructive possession. Meaning, I can technically have a 16" + upper receiver IVO a regular complete lower with stock and regular mag catch (not fixed) and it's not an AW. The minute I attach it, I've MFG an AW and can go to jail. But if I'm driving around with both items in a case (not that I ever would) in CA, I am legally right (though I don't even want to know what kind of legal battle I would face).

Now, in terms of Federal NFA laws, if I have a receiver / barrel under 16" and an AR rifle that it can fit to, I can be prosecuted with constructive possession by Federal law, not state?

Now, if I have an 1 x AR pistol and 1 x AR rifle, I can then have all the short barrels I want (as long as I don't attach it to the rifle receiver) ? This will also mean, I can have all the butt stocks laying around and I'll be OK as long as I never attach it to the AR pistol?

Am I technically right on this? Now I know of course I could still face a legal battle...just wanted to know if I am understanding the law correctly.

bwiese
03-27-2009, 4:25 PM
WRONG.

Under CA law, 'constructive possession' DOES exist for SBRs, SBSes, MGs, and DDs. (Separate from any Fed issues.)

It just does NOT exist for 12276.1PC AWs, that's all.

For FEDERAL LAW, due to Thompson Center case, separated uppers and shorty lowers appear to be OK without SBR constructive possession concerns. (Thanks, Freakshow10mm.)

However CA law does have constructive possession for SBRs etc so you still have to worry about it.

Also, even if you had the shorty upper out of state but the lower in CA, I still think there could be worry about CA law.

Having a legit AR pistol/pistol lower solves the above issues and lets you have a legit outcome for your parts combinations.

bohoki
03-27-2009, 4:46 PM
also there is the strange case of the "sks with detachable magazine"

does with mean what a normal person would think

or does it include having an sks and a detachable magazine

as in you own a sks along with a detachable magazine for sks?

wcnones
03-27-2009, 4:51 PM
You may be confusing the laymen's use of the term "constructive" with the legal term "constructive."

It has nothing to do with you constructing an AW by attaching offending uppers and lowers together. It is in regards to the government constructing an AW charge against you by attaching your possession of the components required to build an AW to a "de facto" intent to build an AW.

In other words, a DA will "construct" your intent to possess an AW by virtue of your possession of the part needed to build one.

This is mere presumption on my part, so lawyers chime in if I am wrong here.

jamesob
03-27-2009, 5:16 PM
here is a story about constructive possesion and i will post when i get the results. a friend who was arrested and a search warrant for his house resulted in his built ak from a nodak receiver seized. the rifle had a detachable mag pistol grips and barrel installed. the rest of the parts are not with the gun. the police was going to charge him with assault weapons charges but the police firearms expert did not exactly know if the law was broken. the d.a's office have been working with the police dept. to see if he violated the law at all. well after a few month he called to see whats going on with the case because they also took a grand in cash and some vicoden that he needed. my buddys brother is a seargent in a near by dept. and called in a favor to another buddy to see whats going on with the case because they wouldn't tell him anything. his buddy said that they couldn't make a decision on wether any law was violated so they sent the rifle to the doj so they could make the decision. after that i told my friend that they will in no way charge him with assault weapon charges because the police or the d.a who know and enforce the law didn't know so how is joe blow supposed to know. the bright side is that i live in tulare county and most of the police and deputy sherriffs and d.a's know about the oll movement. in fact last night at the nra dinner i sat with the senior ranking lt. with the sherriffs dept. he bid on a ar15 receiver, so i know most know about oll's. anyways when i find out the results of my buddys ordeal i will post the results.

ad6mj
03-27-2009, 6:04 PM
So in regards to CA AW laws...there's no constructive possession. Meaning, I can technically have a 16" + upper receiver IVO a regular complete lower with stock and regular mag catch (not fixed) and it's not an AW. The minute I attach it, I've MFG an AW and can go to jail. But if I'm driving around with both items in a case (not that I ever would) in CA, I am legally right (though I don't even want to know what kind of legal battle I would face).



bwiese, in this example, if there is a pistol grip on the complete lower, with regular mag catch, does that present a problem CA AW wise?

bwiese
03-27-2009, 6:18 PM
bwiese, in this example, if there is a pistol grip on the complete lower, with regular mag catch, does that present a problem CA AW wise?

We now know that a bare off-list receiver, even with pistol grip and telestock, is not an AW.

It is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire, nor a rifle. Those attributes are only present if an upper is attached.

bwiese
03-27-2009, 6:19 PM
here is a story about constructive possesion and i will post when i get the results. a friend who was arrested and a search warrant for his house resulted in his built ak from a nodak receiver seized. the rifle had a detachable mag pistol grips and barrel installed. the rest of the parts are not with the gun. the police was going to charge him with assault weapons charges but the police firearms expert did not exactly know if the law was broken. the d.a's office have been working with the police dept. to see if he violated the law at all. well after a few month he called to see whats going on with the case because they also took a grand in cash and some vicoden that he needed. my buddys brother is a seargent in a near by dept. and called in a favor to another buddy to see whats going on with the case because they wouldn't tell him anything. his buddy said that they couldn't make a decision on wether any law was violated so they sent the rifle to the doj so they could make the decision. after that i told my friend that they will in no way charge him with assault weapon charges because the police or the d.a who know and enforce the law didn't know so how is joe blow supposed to know. the bright side is that i live in tulare county and most of the police and deputy sherriffs and d.a's know about the oll movement. in fact last night at the nra dinner i sat with the senior ranking lt. with the sherriffs dept. he bid on a ar15 receiver, so i know most know about oll's. anyways when i find out the results of my buddys ordeal i will post the results.


We need to contact this guy and/or his attorney.

We can't let this go sideways, I really wish we'd heard about this earlier.

Please PM me with his contact info.

ad6mj
03-27-2009, 6:34 PM
We now know that a bare off-list receiver, even with pistol grip and telestock, is not an AW.

It is neither semiautomatic, nor centerfire, nor a rifle. Those attributes are only present if an upper is attached.

Great info to know thanks!

yellowfin
03-27-2009, 9:31 PM
So if Feinslime or MHC are in CA, they can be legally declared prostitutes under constructive possession but not in DC, or is it the other way around?

TheBundo
03-27-2009, 9:58 PM
You may be confusing the laymen's use of the term "constructive" with the legal term "constructive."

It has nothing to do with you constructing an AW by attaching offending uppers and lowers together. It is in regards to the government constructing an AW charge against you by attaching your possession of the components required to build an AW to a "de facto" intent to build an AW.

In other words, a DA will "construct" your intent to possess an AW by virtue of your possession of the part needed to build one.

This is mere presumption on my part, so lawyers chime in if I am wrong here.

Exactly, look at the guy who loaned his semi-auto AR (or whatever) to a friend while he was deployed (if I remember correctly), and after 100's of rounds fired by the friend/loanee, it fired a too-fast burst of 3 rounds and jammed. The loaner is now in prison. I think we all remember the story. And this was under Bush. I can't believe he didn't pardon people like that.

xLusi0n
03-28-2009, 3:19 PM
My question about the story you just posted any many others, is how the heck does one even get caught for that? People at the range ratting you out? ATF agents hiding behind the bush at a range?

jasilva
03-28-2009, 4:01 PM
So if Feinslime or MHC are in CA, they can be legally declared prostitutes under constructive possession but not in DC, or is it the other way around?


:smilielol5:

wash
03-28-2009, 4:47 PM
I think the one thing my Colt Sporter .22lr conversion kit is good for is placing it in an off list rifle with all the evil features. Just keep a real BCG with it and you're ready for a SHTF scenario.

I don't do that, but I did use it when I was setting up the scope on my new upper. Since the lower I bought is still in the 10 day wait and my new upper has a flash hider, instead of installing my bullet button in to my featureless lower, I installed the rimfire bolt in to my upper and assembled, 100% legal. I determined where I wanted to mount the scope, then removed the new upper and re-installed my featureless upper with the .223 bolt.

Of course I did all that in my home and no one would have known unless there was an ATF raid.

On the other hand, if you wanted to carry around the parts to make an "assault weapon", having a .22 lr bolt in the upper will seem a whole lot more legitimate than keeping all the parts in a disassembled state. It's probably faster to swap out a bolt than pinning an upper to a lower also. If you really want to be ready to break all the California "assault weapon" rules, you could make it less than 30" OAL (but greater than 26").

Of course all of this depends on how close to the line you want to walk. I like to stand well clear for my own peace of mind. I'll only use that .22 lr bolt for legality with my featureless lower. Once my new lower comes out of the wait it's getting a bullet button first thing.