Locked Container Question

[tlsmikey]

I've searched over some past threads but haven't come to a clear conclusion on what is required for transport of my handgun.

Let's say the gun has a trigger lock on it. The gun resides inside a box (not locked) which resides inside a duffle bag (not locked).

If i am transporting from my car to the range is it legal to only have the trigger lock or do i need to lock the container as well?

Can i leave a loaded clip in the bag or container as well as long as there is a trigger lock on the gun?

[edwardm]

This isn't legal advice, I'm not your lawyer.

1. Read CA Penal Code 12025-12027 (have tylenol or bourbon handy).
2. Generally speaking, unless you fall into one of the narrow exceptions in
12026-12027, the handgun needs to be in a locked container. The
trigger lock is not a "container" and you've stipulated the carrying
container(s) would not be locked to begin with.
3. Unloaded, in a secure locked container. Ammo may be in the same
container, but not in the handgun proper (magazine vs. chamber is
irrelevant here.) The unloaded requirement keeps you from running
afoul of PC 12031.

#3 above will generally put you in compliance with California law. I won't go into the myriad exceptions or penalty variations for breaking 12025's prohibitions. There is another way that probably works as well - open carry in your vehicle. Handgun unloaded in plain view on the front seat. Note 12025 forbids carrying concealed and makes no mention of prohibiting car-open-carry. This is an option, but local LEO's would probably get jumpy (at least in the city) seeing a pistol in plain view on your front seat.


I've searched over some past threads but haven't come to a clear conclusion on what is required for transport of my handgun.

Let's say the gun has a trigger lock on it. The gun resides inside a box (not locked) which resides inside a duffle bag (not locked).

If i am transporting from my car to the range is it legal to only have the trigger lock or do i need to lock the container as well?

Can i leave a loaded clip in the bag or container as well as long as there is a trigger lock on the gun?

[SeanCasey]

Ok, sorry for the hijack, I think my question is almost identical to his so maybe we both can learn from this: So the case can be unlocked when it is in the trunk since the trunk is allowed for being considered "locked container", but if I was the walk from the car to the range (or from my front door to the car) I would actually need to lock the case itself?

[wildhawker]

I've searched over some past threads but haven't come to a clear conclusion on what is required for transport of my handgun.

Let's say the gun has a trigger lock on it. The gun resides inside a box (not locked) which resides inside a duffle bag (not locked).

If i am transporting from my car to the range is it legal to only have the trigger lock or do i need to lock the container as well?

Can i leave a loaded clip in the bag or container as well as long as there is a trigger lock on the gun?

A trigger lock does not meet the standard for "locked container" as defined in 12026.1(c). Your scenario would not meet the conditions for lawful transport and carry as defined in 12016.1, below.


12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

For clarity:



Unlocked unloaded handgun in plain view with a concealed magazine in a car, bad.

Unlocked unloaded handgun in plain view with a magazine in plain view in a car, good.

Unlocked unloaded handgun in a locked secure container with a concealed magazine in a car, good.

-Gene

[edwardm]

Maybe. If you have a pass-through trunk (rear seats fold down for trunk access from inside the car), then you're treading on thin ice, IMO. I haven't found any case law dealing specifically with that fact pattern, but with access to the trunk via an unlocked and unlockable method of ingress, I'd say no-go.

If you have a *real* trunk without fold down seats for access, then yes, as long as it is locked in the trunk you are OK for car transport. Upon arrival I'd be curious about the private property v. public property v. really really really private property distinction. Once you open that trunk, the gun is unlocked. On private private private property, that's not an issue. On public property, it might be.

Ok, sorry for the hijack, I think my question is almost identical to his so maybe we both can learn from this: So the case can be unlocked when it is in the trunk since the trunk is allowed for being considered "locked container", but if I was the walk from the car to the range (or from my front door to the car) I would actually need to lock the case itself?

[SeanCasey]

Makes sense. In one of my cars it has fold down seats with access to the trunk (typical in modern 4 dr sedans), and the other (2 seater) there is no getting into the trunk from the passenger compartment.

The property distinction I guess really is where the lock comes into play when transporting from the door to the car. As an apartment complex probably is not considered very private in that regard.

I guess for my own legal safety I will just stick with keeping the cases locked directly then it never comes into question.

[wildhawker]

I, too, am curious as to unlocked unloaded concealed carry on private property without express permission to do so (but without posted signage prohibiting firearms); I'm not talking trespass situation here, mind you- just unlocked unloaded concealed carry on private property (not your own).

Maybe. If you have a pass-through trunk (rear seats fold down for trunk access from inside the car), then you're treading on thin ice, IMO. I haven't found any case law dealing specifically with that fact pattern, but with access to the trunk via an unlocked and unlockable method of ingress, I'd say no-go.

If you have a *real* trunk without fold down seats for access, then yes, as long as it is locked in the trunk you are OK for car transport. Upon arrival I'd be curious about the private property v. public property v. really really really private property distinction. Once you open that trunk, the gun is unlocked. On private private private property, that's not an issue. On public property, it might be.

[CA_Libertarian]

Ok, sorry for the hijack, I think my question is almost identical to his so maybe we both can learn from this: So the case can be unlocked when it is in the trunk since the trunk is allowed for being considered "locked container", but if I was the walk from the car to the range (or from my front door to the car) I would actually need to lock the case itself?

Yep.

If you conceal any "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" (anything but long guns), then you have violated PC12025, unless you meet an exception.

It's not quite the question you asked, but there is a lot of excellent discussion on PC12025-12027 here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061).

[tombinghamthegreat]

I've searched over some past threads but haven't come to a clear conclusion on what is required for transport of my handgun.

Let's say the gun has a trigger lock on it. The gun resides inside a box (not locked) which resides inside a duffle bag (not locked).

If i am transporting from my car to the range is it legal to only have the trigger lock or do i need to lock the container as well?

Can i leave a loaded clip in the bag or container as well as long as there is a trigger lock on the gun?

there are alot of threads, look better. But for handgun you can either open carry an unloaded handgun(except for school zones), put it in a trunk or put it in a locking container(meaning a duffel bag/backpack, briefcase with a cheap lock would work), something besides a glove department. Also you can just leave it in your car, no need to worry about destination. you can have loaded mags, also you can have ammo/gun in same container.

As a side note long guns do not need to be in a container unless you are dealing with school zones. Also you could just leave a long gun in the car too.

[tlsmikey]

Thanks for all the help guys.

I do find it odd that when you purchase a handgun, they give you a trigger lock but no locking container. How exactly are you supposed to transport from the store to your car without breaking the law based upon the above statements?

[Librarian]

Thanks for all the help guys.

I do find it odd that when you purchase a handgun, they give you a trigger lock but no locking container. How exactly are you supposed to transport from the store to your car without breaking the law based upon the above statements?

You're asking a logical question in a thread about California gun laws! :eek:

As a practical matter, you buy or bring a locking or lockable case with its lock when you pick up the handgun.

See also http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting

[jkchan83]

Isn't there an exception for being on private property?

For example, unloaded handgun in bag, walking from my car that is in the private parking lot of a private range to the inside of the range.

In that situation, would I be breaking the law if my handgun is not in a locked container?

As an aside, if I were to have the unloaded pistol in a holster openly on my hip, would that be considered Open Carry?

Thanks.

[CA_Libertarian]

Isn't there an exception for being on private property?

(1) For example, unloaded handgun in bag, walking from my car that is in the private parking lot of a private range to the inside of the range.

In that situation, would I be breaking the law if my handgun is not in a locked container?

(2) As an aside, if I were to have the unloaded pistol in a holster openly on my hip, would that be considered Open Carry?

Thanks.

(1) There is no private property exemption to PC12025, so your unlocked, concealed gun in the parking lot (or even at the range) would be a violation.

(2) Open Carry is a lay term, not a legal one by any stretch. Open Carry simply refers to the opposite of Concealed Carry. If it isn't concealed, it's in the open.

[edwardm]

?

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen
of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who
resides or is temporarily within this state...who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen'
s or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on
private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal
resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person...;

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges;

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

(say a car = private property for (g), and there is no "...but in a locked container" requirement to qualify for the exemptions in 12027 and 12026, unlike 12026.1 and .2)

Parking lot would be another matter, fact-driven.

(1) There is no private property exemption to PC12025, so your unlocked, concealed gun in the parking lot (or even at the range) would be a violation.

[EOD Guy]

Maybe. If you have a pass-through trunk (rear seats fold down for trunk access from inside the car), then you're treading on thin ice, IMO. I haven't found any case law dealing specifically with that fact pattern, but with access to the trunk via an unlocked and unlockable method of ingress, I'd say no-go.

If you have a *real* trunk without fold down seats for access, then yes, as long as it is locked in the trunk you are OK for car transport. Upon arrival I'd be curious about the private property v. public property v. really really really private property distinction. Once you open that trunk, the gun is unlocked. On private private private property, that's not an issue. On public property, it might be.


Every car I've seen with fold down rear seats has a provision to lock them in place. If locked in place, they cannot be unlocked from the passenger compartment, but must be unlocked after opening the trunk.

[edwardm]

http://freerevs.com/gallery/196535.html

2004 Dodge Neon (I owned one as well, so I know firsthand). Note the small pull tab on the part of the seat in the 'up' position. There was no provision for a locking mechanism that would prevent entry via the passenger compartment.

I've rented other little econoboxes in the past and noted the same thing - tumble-down rear seats needing only a tug to release them from the passenger compartment and no provision for a trunk-side lock of any sort.

My old Acura was the same way. That is the reason advised caution if the rear seats can fold down. There appears to be no standard 'locking' mechanism restricting passenger compartment access, as it likely varies by make and model.

Every car I've seen with fold down rear seats has a provision to lock them in place. If locked in place, they cannot be unlocked from the passenger compartment, but must be unlocked after opening the trunk.

[SeanCasey]

The 04 Grand Prix I used to have did not have provisions to lock the back seats, nor does my 07 Aura. I agree that this varies from make and model.

[DDT]

Every car I've seen with fold down rear seats has a provision to lock them in place.

You need to get out more ;)

[edwardm]

Depends on why he's spending so much time in back seats. Could be a good thing. ;)

You need to get out more ;)