NY: Even Worse AWB bill in Assembly

[yellowfin]

As if we didn't find the Albany ammo bill from a week ago appalling enough, there's more from the Empire/Vampire State. From the lovely people who spawned Schumer and McCarthy, there's a worse AWB for New York in their assembly. Not a new one, as if they didn't have one, a worse one.

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A06294
You would be required to either render your weapon inoperable, surrender it to police, or register is in a ballistic database; which according to the text would involve the following: "RULES AND REGULATIONS SHALL, AT A MINIMUM, SPECIFY PROCEDURES BY WHICH THE OWNER OF AN ASSAULT WEAPON LAWFULLY POSSESSED PRIOR TO JULY FIRST, TWO THOUSAND TEN IS TO DELIVER AN ASSAULT WEAPON AND VERIFICATION OF A BACKGROUND CHECK REQUIRED BY 18 USC S 922 TO THE REGIONAL PROGRAM FOR TESTING AND PROMPT RETURN."


So in other words, we would all have to surrender guns we already own "for testing", and undergo ANOTHER background check...never mind the fact that an NICS check was required to buy the guns in the first place. And then "deliver" the gun for testing and "prompt return"...I wonder what their definition of "prompt" is. This is unbelievable. Other versions of this bill have passed the assembly in both 2007 and 2008...they keep adding more and more **** to it. My personal favorite is that they are now including rimfire semi-autos! My 10/22 is now an "assault weapon".


S 2. Subdivision 22 of section 265.00 of the penal law is REPEALED and
5 a new subdivision 22 is added to read as follows:
6 22. "ASSAULT WEAPON" MEANS ANY:
7 (A) SEMI-AUTOMATIC OR PUMP-ACTION RIFLE THAT HAS THE CAPACITY TO
8 ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING:
9 (I) A PISTOL GRIP;
10 (II) A SECOND HANDGRIP OR A PROTRUDING GRIP THAT CAN BE HELD BY THE
11 NON-TRIGGER HAND;
12 (III) A FOLDING, TELESCOPING OR THUMBHOLE STOCK;
13 (IV) A SHROUD ATTACHED TO THE BARREL, OR THAT PARTIALLY OR COMPLETELY
14 ENCIRCLES THE BARREL, ALLOWING THE BEARER TO HOLD THE FIREARM WITH THE
15 NON-TRIGGER HAND WITHOUT BEING BURNED, BUT EXCLUDING A SLIDE THAT
16 ENCLOSES THE BARREL; OR
17 (V) A MUZZLE BRAKE OR MUZZLE COMPENSATOR;
18 (B) SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL, OR ANY SEMI-AUTOMATIC, CENTERFIRE RIFLE
19 WITH A FIXED MAGAZINE, THAT HAS THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT MORE THAN TEN
20 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION;
21 (C) SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL THAT HAS THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE
22 MAGAZINE AND HAS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING:
23 (I) A SECOND HANDGRIP OR A PROTRUDING GRIP THAT CAN BE HELD BY THE
24 NON-TRIGGER HAND;
25 (II) A FOLDING, TELESCOPING OR THUMBHOLE STOCK;
26 (III) A SHROUD ATTACHED TO THE BARREL, OR THAT PARTIALLY OR COMPLETELY
27 ENCIRCLES THE BARREL, ALLOWING THE BEARER TO HOLD THE FIREARM WITH THE
28 NON-TRIGGER HAND WITHOUT BEING BURNED, BUT EXCLUDING A SLIDE THAT
29 ENCLOSES THE BARREL;
30 (IV) A MUZZLE BRAKE OR MUZZLE COMPENSATOR; OR
31 (V) THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AT ANY LOCATION
32 OUTSIDE OF THE PISTOL GRIP;
33 (D) SEMI-AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN THAT HAS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING:
34 (I) A PISTOL GRIP OR A VERTICAL HANDGRIP;
35 (II) A FOLDING, TELESCOPING OR THUMBHOLE STOCK;
36 (III) A FIXED MAGAZINE CAPACITY IN EXCESS OF FIVE ROUNDS; OR
37 (IV) AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE;
38 (E) SHOTGUN WITH A REVOLVING CYLINDER; OR
39 (F) CONVERSION KIT, PART, OR COMBINATION OF PARTS, FROM WHICH AN
40 ASSAULT WEAPON CAN BE ASSEMBLED IF THOSE PARTS ARE IN THE POSSESSION OR
41 UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE SAME PERSON.
42 (G) MODIFICATIONS OF SUCH FEATURES, OR OTHER FEATURES, DETERMINED BY
43 RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE TO BE
44 PARTICULARLY SUITABLE FOR MILITARY AND NOT SPORTING PURPOSES. IN ADDI-
45 TION, THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE SHALL, BY RULES AND REGU-
46 LATIONS, DESIGNATE SPECIFIC SEMI-AUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE OR RIMFIRE RIFLES
47 OR SEMI-AUTOMATIC SHOTGUNS, IDENTIFIED BY MAKE, MODEL, AND MANUFACTUR-
48 ER'S NAME, TO BE WITHIN THE DEFINITION OF ASSAULT WEAPON, IF THE SUPER-
49 INTENDENT OF STATE POLICE DETERMINES THAT SUCH WEAPONS ARE PARTICULARLY
50 SUITABLE FOR MILITARY AND NOT SPORTING PURPOSES. A LIST OF ASSAULT WEAP-
51 ONS, AS DETERMINED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, SHALL BE MADE
52 AVAILABLE ON A REGULAR BASIS TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC.
53 PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT SUCH TERM DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY WEAPON THAT HAS
54 BEEN RENDERED PERMANENTLY INOPERABLE.
55 S 3. Section 265.00 of the penal law is amended by adding three new
56 subdivisions 24, 25 and 26 to read as follows:
A. 6294 3

1 24. "DETACHABLE MAGAZINE" MEANS ANY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE, THE
2 FUNCTION OF WHICH IS TO DELIVER ONE OR MORE AMMUNITION CARTRIDGES INTO
3 THE FIRING CHAMBER, WHICH CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE FIREARM WITHOUT THE
4 USE OF ANY TOOL, INCLUDING A BULLET OR AMMUNITION CARTRIDGE.
5 25. "MUZZLE BRAKE" MEANS A DEVICE ATTACHED TO THE MUZZLE OF A WEAPON
6 THAT UTILIZES ESCAPING GAS TO REDUCE RECOIL.
7 26. "MUZZLE COMPENSATOR" MEANS A DEVICE ATTACHED TO THE MUZZLE OF A
8 WEAPON THAT UTILIZES ESCAPING GAS TO CONTROL MUZZLE MOVEMENT.
9 S 4. Section 265.20 of the penal law is amended by adding a new subdi-
10 vision e to read as follows:
11 E. POSSESSION OF AN ASSAULT WEAPON ON PROPERTY OWNED OR IMMEDIATELY
12 CONTROLLED BY THE PERSON, OR WHILE ON THE PREMISES OF A LICENSED
13 GUNSMITH FOR THE PURPOSE OF LAWFUL REPAIR, OR WHILE ENGAGED IN THE LEGAL
14 USE OF THE ASSAULT WEAPON AT A DULY LICENSED FIRING RANGE, OR WHILE
15 TRAVELING TO OR FROM THESE LOCATIONS, BY A PERSON WHO LAWFULLY POSSESSED
16 SUCH WEAPON PRIOR TO JULY FIRST, TWO THOUSAND TEN AND WHO, PRIOR TO
17 OCTOBER FIRST, TWO THOUSAND TEN:
18 1. RENDERS THE ASSAULT WEAPON PERMANENTLY INOPERABLE; OR
19 2. SURRENDERS THE ASSAULT WEAPON TO THE APPROPRIATE LAW ENFORCEMENT
20 AGENCY AS PROVIDED FOR IN SUBPARAGRAPH (F) OF PARAGRAPH ONE OF SUBDIVI-
21 SION A OF THIS SECTION; OR
22 3. REGISTERS THE ASSAULT WEAPON AS PROVIDED FOR IN SUBDIVISION SEVEN
23 OF SECTION THREE HUNDRED NINETY-SIX-FF OF THE GENERAL BUSINESS LAW.
24 S 5. Subdivision 7 of section 396-ff of the general business law is
25 renumbered subdivision 8 and a new subdivision 7 is added to read as
26 follows:
27 (7) THE DIVISION OF STATE POLICE SHALL NO LATER THAN JULY FIRST, TWO
28 THOUSAND TEN, PROMULGATE RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR THE ADDITION OF
29 INFORMATION IDENTIFYING ASSAULT WEAPONS LAWFULLY POSSESSED PRIOR TO
30 JANUARY FIRST, TWO THOUSAND TEN TO THE DATABANK ESTABLISHED BY THIS
31 SECTION. SUCH RULES AND REGULATIONS SHALL, AT A MINIMUM, SPECIFY PROCE-
32 DURES BY WHICH THE OWNER OF AN ASSAULT WEAPON LAWFULLY POSSESSED PRIOR
33 TO JULY FIRST, TWO THOUSAND TEN IS TO DELIVER AN ASSAULT WEAPON AND
34 VERIFICATION OF A BACKGROUND CHECK REQUIRED BY 18 USC S 922 TO THE
35 REGIONAL PROGRAM FOR TESTING AND PROMPT RETURN. UPON RECEIPT OF THE
36 SEALED CONTAINER AND INSPECTION OF A CERTIFICATE PROVING THAT A BACK-
37 GROUND CHECK HAS BEEN CONDUCTED AND THE OWNER IS NOT PROHIBITED FROM
38 POSSESSING A FIREARM, THE DIVISION OF STATE POLICE SHALL CAUSE TO BE
39 ENTERED IN THE AUTOMATED ELECTRONIC DATABANK PERTINENT DATA, INCLUDING
40 BALLISTIC INFORMATION RELEVANT TO IDENTIFICATION OF THE SHELL CASING AND
41 TO THE ASSAULT WEAPON FROM WHICH IT WAS DISCHARGED, AND THE DATE AND
42 PLACE OF THE BACKGROUND CHECK AND THE NAME OF THE INDIVIDUAL WHO
43 CONDUCTED SUCH BACKGROUND CHECK.
44 S 6. Severability. If any provision or term of this act is for any
45 reason declared unconstitutional or invalid or ineffective by any court
46 of competent jurisdiction, such decision shall not affect the validity
47 or the effectiveness of the remaining portions of this act or any part
48 thereof.
49 S 7. This act shall take effect July 1, 2010; provided that the divi-
50 sion of state police is authorized to promulgate any and all rules and
51 regulations and take any other measures necessary to implement this act
52 on its effective date on or before such date.

California may be the front lines for the pro 2A fight--New York is apparently Mordor. Hey Gene, Don, et al.: do we have anyone out there fighting? I'm about to be sent out there to that battle and it looks REAL scary.

[Liberty1]

California may be the front lines for the pro 2A fight--New York is apparently Mordor. Hey Gene, Don, et al.: do we have anyone out there fighting? I'm about to be sent out there to that battle and it looks REAL scary.

Take care Frodo. Remember to drop the ring in the lava once you reach the Empire State Building with out getting detected!

[avidone]

Wow!

[truthseeker]

That is ridiculous!

[glockwise2000]

That's a big piece of s**t.

[thedrickel]

Sounds like they are going to need some BB ;)

[gcvt]

"...THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE SHALL, BY RULES AND REGULATIONS, DESIGNATE SPECIFIC SEMI-AUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE OR RIMFIRE RIFLES OR SEMI-AUTOMATIC SHOTGUNS, IDENTIFIED BY MAKE, MODEL, AND MANUFACTURER'S NAME, TO BE WITHIN THE DEFINITION OF ASSAULT WEAPON..."

I don't usually have jaw-droppages, but I'm at a loss for words.

[mymonkeyman]

Pump-action rifles are now "assault weapons"? Seriously?

[bwiese]

Pump-action rifles are now "assault weapons"? Seriously?

Longstanding LCAV goal.

They want your 870s esp if there's no wood on 'em.

[DDT]

Longstanding LCAV goal.

They want your 870s esp if there's no wood on 'em.

This would cover shotguns as well as rifles?

[ANDREWMENDEZ]

I dont think they will let that pass!! C'mon, thats a joke, next they are going to call airsoft pistols and BB guns AW's!!

[jumbopanda]

These people deserve to be thrown in jail.

[tiki]

Heller->Incorporation->Challenge

[knuckled]

Heller->Incorporation->Challenge

Incorporation was already rejected by the 2nd circuit. NY will have to wait for a SC ruling to get any benefit from Heller/other 2A cases.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Incorporation was already rejected by the 2nd circuit. NY will have to wait for a SC ruling to get any benefit from Heller/other 2A cases.

HOORAY FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS

[Soldier415]

wow. Just wow.

You can just imagine what they would say if someone introduced a bill like this to erase 1st amendment freedoms... :rolleyes:

[aileron]

Take care Frodo. Remember to drop the ring in the lava once you reach the Empire State Building with out getting detected!

Now that's funny. "Frodo... Take pics of the Schumer, Lord of the Nazgûl, while your there; if you can." ;)

[Dark Paladin]

I dont think they will let that pass!! C'mon, thats a joke, next they are going to call airsoft pistols and BB guns AW's!!

England did just that with their airsoft stuff. You actually have to register with a government authority before you can legally purchase airsoft replicas. See the VCR Bill for reference.

Never underestimate human stupidity.

[AJAX22]

I dont think they will let that pass!! C'mon, thats a joke, next they are going to call airsoft pistols and BB guns AW's!!

They are already licensed and regulated as firearms in NYC and New Jersey....

[nic]

Looks like a new market for BBs and MMGs.

In all seriousness, it never ceases to amaze me how insane and stupid the anti-gunners are. I can't imagine the kind of uproar there would be if someone tried to place these kinds of restrictions on other Constitutional rights.

[rrr70]

That is ridiculous!

No, this is retarded.
Never under estimate stupidity of your lawmakers.

[CCWFacts]

HOORAY FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS

Hooray for loony pro se plaintiffs (http://homepages.nyu.edu/~jmm257/mvc.html) who have screwed New Yorkers for many many years with their self-indulgent and ego-driven legal quests.

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~jmm257/stix-clix.jpg

Thanks to this one guy, James M. Maloney, NY doesn't have a legal way to challenge these kinds of bills, and they won't until the Supreme Court deals with the incorporation question, which who know when that might be.

[tiki]

I think Miller should have been cited by the lower court. Militias don't carry little sticks joined by rope, so the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply. Go away idiot.

[Hopi]

These people deserve to be thrown in jail.

You look too lightly upon treason.

[CCWFacts]

I think Miller should have been cited by the lower court. Militias don't carry little sticks joined by rope, so the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply. Go away idiot.

That's what I was thinking. Sticks-with-string are not, and have never been, an issued military item in the Western world, and were militarily obsolete in Japan probably 200 or 300 years ago. They are not a practical or normal self-defense weapon. It's dubious whether they are the "arms" that the 2A talks about.

I hope that the Supreme Court will deny cert to them based on the fact that it's doubtful the 2A is even relevant to sticks-and-a-string. They should take a cleaner case, involving relevant, modern self-defense weapons. That case would be Nordyke or McDonald, where the lawyers are specifically dealing with modern self-defense firearms, of the type that normal people carry for self-defense, and that were the subject of the Heller ruling.

Just because something has some potential self-defense use, or was used by some particular military at some point in history, doesn't make it a good subject for a 2A court case.

[stillnotbob]

Seems that just having PARTS is enough to be considered an assault weapon with this bill:

39 (F) CONVERSION KIT, PART, OR COMBINATION OF PARTS, FROM WHICH AN
40 ASSAULT WEAPON CAN BE ASSEMBLED IF THOSE PARTS ARE IN THE POSSESSION OR
41 UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE SAME PERSON.

[bulgron]

I'm wondering if the anti's are thinking that California is becoming an inhospitable place for their agenda, and so they're shifting their focus to NY.

Hey Yellowfin, don't forget to set up a Members' Council program in NY State once you get there. I think they're going to need it, especially if we get incorporation in California and NY (sadly) does not.

[yellowfin]

It's going to take a lot of people more than me who are more familiar with the system there. I think the most I can do is help get them all together and talking, and know who the right people are to do it. At least I can say I've learned from here what that looks like. It does indeed look like they're trying to make NY worse now that here is getting better.

[Fate]

Virginia has the right idea. Note their motto.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Seal_of_Virginia.svg/320px-Seal_of_Virginia.svg.png

[bulgron]

It's going to take a lot of people more than me who are more familiar with the system there. I think the most I can do is help get them all together and talking, and know who the right people are to do it. At least I can say I've learned from here what that looks like. It does indeed look like they're trying to make NY worse now that here is getting better.

Make sure to talk to Paul Payne and see if he can put you in contact with the right people in New York State.

[cousinkix1953]

Longstanding LCAV goal.

They want your 870s esp if there's no wood on 'em.
I would be more afraid of an old pump Winchester model xxxx trench gun. There isn't much difference between holding the trigger down and cranking the forearm with your other hand or just pulling the trigger on their semi-automatic model xx. Been there; done that many times.

And wasn't that thumbhole stock the substitute for the pistol grip in the Roos-Roberti AWB in 1989? Remember the post-ban MAK-90? So, what's gonna replace that next?

[gailwrath]

22. "ASSAULT WEAPON" MEANS ANY:
7 (A) SEMI-AUTOMATIC OR PUMP-ACTION RIFLE THAT HAS THE CAPACITY TO
8 ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING:.......
...
(IV) A SHROUD ATTACHED TO THE BARREL, OR THAT PARTIALLY OR COMPLETELY
14 ENCIRCLES THE BARREL, ALLOWING THE BEARER TO HOLD THE FIREARM WITH THE
15 NON-TRIGGER HAND WITHOUT BEING BURNED, BUT EXCLUDING A SLIDE THAT
16 ENCLOSES THE BARREL; OR


wow, wouldn't than mean a stock 10/22 would be an assault rifle, as any other semi rifle that the stock covers part of the barrel?

[sreiter]

I dont think they will let that pass!! C'mon, thats a joke, next they are going to call airsoft pistols and BB guns AW's!!

NJ already calls BB guns AW

[sreiter]

Virginia has the right idea. Note their motto.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Seal_of_Virginia.svg/320px-Seal_of_Virginia.svg.png


except virgia is one of the few states it's illegal to use a radar detector, etc- the have very strict laws

[7x57]

Longstanding LCAV goal.

They want your 870s esp if there's no wood on 'em.

And how. Some people haven't been paying attention to England, the Model State for gun control advocates everywhere. Or Australia, where the common refrain among hapless gunnies is "I didn't care about all that weird stuff, I just wanted my pump-action shotgun. But then they came for that too."

Besides the fact that the law can define any word to mean anything, we are dealing with people who have absorbed intuitively the text critical theories of the modern academy. Texts do not have meanings themselves, there are only reader's responses. If enough people say black is white, it is.

In the case of "assault weapon," however, it's a nonsense word they invented so there is no pesky prior meaning to get in the way. It *means* "gun I managed to scare people about," folks. Of course it does--they *believe* that every gun is likely to either mind-control it's holder to go postal or just float up in the air and start shooting. So *all* guns are *logically* "assault weapons"; they are weapons, and in their mind all weapons do (not people, weapons) is assault people.

And that I am quite sure was the intended usage of the term in the beginning. They just go down their personal list in order of scariness. If you can scare legislators about pistol-gripped carbines, then they're "assault weapons." (Example: CA). Then if you can scare them about handguns, they are "assault weapons" (they assault people all over creation, after all, dragging their mind-enslaved wielders behind them I guess). (Example: DC.) Then if you can scare them about all repeaters, shotguns, rifles, rimfire, etc, they are "assault weapons." (Example: England, though they probably aren't using the term as they had a different route to slavery.) Note that one of the international gun-banners has quite openly said that anyone that wants to hunt or shoot for sport should only be allowed a single-shot rifle.

It's an elastic term that means whatever Sarah Brady uses it to mean. Until you thoroughly internalize that, you don't yet understand how your liberty is being infringed.

7x57

[7x57]

That's what I was thinking. Sticks-with-string are not, and have never been, an issued military item in the Western world, and were militarily obsolete in Japan probably 200 or 300 years ago. They are not a practical or normal self-defense weapon. It's dubious whether they are the "arms" that the 2A talks about.


Hmm, I usually agree with you, but I think this is wrong. The greatest political need may be for weapons suitable for the militia, but the right is general, just as the greatest political need for protection of speech is speech critical of the government but the protection covers "speech" in general.

The reason isn't hard to guess--allowing the government, any branch, to decide what speech is political, or what arms are appropriate, is to nullify the protection in practice Our history and the history of the other English-speaking common-law nations pretty much proves that. Note that one of the current gun-banning gambits is to say that "common sense" says that the weapons that "do not belong on our streets" are in fact the ones most necessary for the 2A to work. The larger reason is probably that it isn't enough to protect a narrow application--to be free, a man must not have to even worry about what kind of speech he is making. The BoR is not just about freedom to be a good citizen--it is about the mindset of being free. Part of that mindset is not permitting the government to have opinions on what arms are or are not appropriate for you to have.

More than that, the basis of the militia idea seems to be self-defense. While chucks are not appropriate for militia service, it's not entirely clear that they are not appropriate for self-defense on the street. In any case, to be free the decision needs to be yours and yours alone, just as you and you alone will suffer the consequences of a poor choice.

So, whether it is politically expedient in this particular context, I think the 2A is all about nunchaku too. It's about any personal arm for any lawful purpose.

7x57

[CCWFacts]

Hmm, I usually agree with you, but I think this is wrong. The greatest political need may be for weapons suitable for the militia, but the right is general, just as the greatest political need for protection of speech is speech critical of the government but the protection covers "speech" in general.

Hey if i were a judge, I would interpret the 2A as expansively as I could, but for most judges, the strangeness of such a weapon is frightening and muddles the issue. They'll wonder if they are really arms, if there is a legitimate use for them, etc. They'll wonder what would motivate someone to want to carry that. That's why I wish that the judge at a lower level had ruled that they are not "arms" which could be germane to the 2A. And they really are on the fringes of what could be considered a protected "arm".

Re: banning shotguns: The only reason any 12ga shotgun is not considered a Destructive Device is because the Treasury has made a determination that it is suitable for sporting use. That means all those "cruiser" shotguns are only not-NFA because the Treasury thinks they are for "sports".

Obviously they are not for sporting use.

Pump-action or "cruiser" shotguns may be among the easiest weapons to ban; I think it wouldn't take any congressional action at all to do it.

[7x57]

That's why I wish that the judge at a lower level had ruled that they are not "arms" which could be germane to the 2A.
Obviously they are not for sporting use.


Fine--that may describe the thought process of judges. But my point is different--we should not be wishing to mangle the meaning of the language. If we don't stand for the original meaning of the text, then it's just our thesis against their antithesis, and that's the game they wish to play. (Because they believe they have God's guarantee that the antithesis always wins the dialectic.) We don't want to fight dueling opinions. The fight I think we must fight is different--that the original meaning as understood by literate people of the time of passage is the enduring meaning. That regardless of whether a single person believes it, the meaning remains the same and that every citizen has a civic obligation to defend it. That to defend the Constitution is precisely to defend that original, enduring meaning.

Not only is that the fight I think we can win, I think it's the fight we are morally obliged to fight. And I think conceding or supporting a precedent that the government can decide that sticks connected with a line are not legitimate is in fact every bit as dangerous as conceding that the government can restrict "non-sporting" arms. We have to repeal that, not support it.


Pump-action or "cruiser" shotguns may be among the easiest weapons to ban; I think it wouldn't take any congressional action at all to do it.

Hmm. Possibly, but even the majority Heller decision found more expansive meaning of "arms" than simply militia arms, and I think they were correct. Do you believe *handguns* are protected? They're quite minor arms for the militia--wars are fought with rifles. But they *are* chosen because they are convenient to bear and protected because it is the human right of self-defense that the 2A attempts to protect in law.

So cruiser shotguns are probably as protected as handguns, given that they are also very popular for home defense. Yes, I'm talking principle, not practice, but we do have to keep our sights on what we need to win even as we play hardball realpolitik. If the government can second-guess my choice to have a cruiser shotgun for home defense, I am not free.

Follow that line of reasoning and you invalidate the entire NFA, which is correct. The government has no legal cause to prevent me from choosing a SBR, SBS, suppressor, or even select-fire weapon for defense (the latter is also what I need to privately own to show up for my militia obligation, of course). But my children may have to fight that fight. Right now, we have to defend what remains of our lawful uses (hunting, personal defense, sport) so that they have the opportunity to regain the illegal infringements of the 20th century.

In reality we probably agree and are talking cross-purposes, but I am a big-picture guy and don't ever want to lose sight of what we are fighting for.

7x57

[CCWFacts]

(re: banning shotguns) Do you believe *handguns* are protected? They're quite minor arms for the militia--wars are fought with rifles.

I personally believe that shotguns and handguns and so on should be firmly 100% protected by Heller. But I'm going back to the subject of this thread: a NY AWB, and the comments about "they want your shotguns". And from my understanding of the law on this, it looks like the Treasury can ban any shotgun with a bore > 0.5" (ie, any 12ga) just by saying, "it's not sporting". They did that with the Street Sweeper or whatever it was called. But nothing in the law stops them from doing the same to other shotguns, like pump actions in general. I'm just pointing out that all those who think, "we don't need AWs, all I care about is my Mossberg that I keep under the bed" are actually more at risk of being hit with a ban because they can come after that Mossberg without even needing to pass a law through Congress. Oh and if they do reclassify a shotgun as a DD, then existing instances of it are not grandfathered; they must go into the NFA, which means that 99% of people will simply give them up. And those who "forget" they have one in the closet are then guilty of a serious Federal crime.

I'm only saying this as a warning to any shotgunners who think "I not worried about an assault weapons ban. They will never come after my shotgun." Yeah, that's right, they don't need an AWB to come after your shotgun, because it's already covered by the NFA!! It's only by the grace of Timothy Geithner that any particular shotgun is not treated as a DD.

I assume that a decision like that would be challengeable under Heller and would probably not stand up. Shotguns are obviously among the most common weapons for self-defense and also (to some extent) for militia use.