Handgun Roster Exception - Non Resident PPT

[hoffmang]

I believe there is another widely available exception to the Handgun Roster.

The Handgun Roster is in Penal Code Sections 12125-12133. The exception for Private Party Transfers is:


12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section
12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.


We've always assumed that that meant you could only PPT between California Residents. However, let's turn to 12082 and 12072 (d).

First lets turn to 12072:

12072. (a) [(1)-(9): No sales to prohibited classes, minors of handguns, must DROS, have serial numbers, one in 30 days, etc.]
(b)No person licensed under Section 12071 shall supply, sell,
deliver, or give possession or control of a pistol, revolver, or
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person to any person
under the age of 21 years or any other firearm to a person under the
age of 18 years.
(c)[(1)-(6): 10 day wait, wrapped, HSC, show documents, etc.]
...
(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's
license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the
transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that
firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.


So let's move now to 12082:


12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section
12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from
charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the
fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the
dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a
purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without
any other parties being involved in the transaction.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the
requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and
12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a
personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold
or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is
returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or
transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have
sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a
record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry
provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer
shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the
firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the
person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other
information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does
not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required
to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.


Now lets drill into 12082 (b)(2):
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a
personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold
or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is
returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or
transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have
sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a
record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry
provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.

What is a personal handgun importer? Let's turn to 12072 (f) (2) (A):

(2) (A) On or after January 1, 1998, within 60 days of bringing a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person into this state, a personal handgun importer shall do one
of the following:
(i) Forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department
of Justice, a report prescribed by the department including
information concerning that individual and a description of the
firearm in question.
(ii) Sell or transfer the firearm in accordance with the
provisions of subdivision (d) or in accordance with the provisions of
an exemption from subdivision (d).
(iii) Sell or transfer the firearm to a dealer licensed pursuant
to Section 12071.
(iv) Sell or transfer the firearm to a sheriff or police
department.
(B) If the personal handgun importer sells or transfers the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12072 and the sale
or transfer cannot be completed by the dealer to the purchaser or
transferee, and the firearm can be returned to the personal handgun
importer, the personal handgun importer shall have complied with the
provisions of this paragraph.
(C) The provisions of this paragraph are cumulative and shall not
be construed as restricting the application of any other law.
However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by this
section and different provisions of the Penal Code shall not be
punished under more than one provision.
(D) (i) On and after January 1, 1998, the department shall conduct
a public education and notification program regarding this paragraph
to ensure a high degree of publicity of the provisions of this
paragraph. [and more stuff about making people who move in aware...]


I posit this:

Your buddy who resides outside of California can legally acquire an unrostered handgun, fly or drive to California with it, walk into a CA FFL with you, and PPT transfer it to you. He is the "personal handgun importer." I see no restriction that requires both parties to a PPT to be California Residents. Federal law is complied with because you're performing a sale where residents of different states go through an FFL. One's buddy would have to limit himself to 6 transactions a year to not fall afoul of 12070 (c)(1)(A).

What Penal Code prevents this? What am I missing.

(Hat tip to EW for pointing this out.)

-Gene

[bdsmchs]

The only problem that I see is the CA DROS system does not allow you to input a non-CA ID for the seller.

It requires either a CA ID number or a CA DL number for both seller and buyer.

You could run it as a regular DROS transaction for a handgun, but then the firearm would have to be rostered.

If there is a proper procedure in place to bypass the DROS requirements of only a CA form of ID for the seller, then this is awesome :)

[CCWFacts]

If that's the case, smart visitors could basically get themselves free trips to California. How much would a Seecamp 380 go for here? A Colt Python?

[ke6guj]

I think you have to become a resident to claim "personal handgun importer"
12001(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means an individual who meets all of the following criteria:

(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.

(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.

(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.

(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on or after January 1, 1998.

(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision (c) of Section 12072.

(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.

(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by subdivision (a) of Section 12020.

(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section 12276 or 12276.1.

(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.

(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.

(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.

(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she was discharged from active service in this state.

[hoffmang]

If the DROS software is an underground regulation, well... we can fix that.

-Gene

[hoffmang]

Ok, let me back away from "Personal Handgun Importer."

Reading 12082: Where does a residency requirement come in for the seller?

-Gene

[ke6guj]

But even without the Personal handgun importer exemption, where in 12082(a) does it say that the seller mustbe a CA resident?

One thing I've heard mentioned is if the buyer fails the DROS, the FFL can't directly return the handgun back to the out-of-state seller due to federal law.

As bdsmchs mentioned, there is no way to process a PPT DROS with an out-of-state seller's ID. Underground Regulation maybe?

[hoffmang]

One thing I've heard mentioned is if the buyer fails the DROS, the FFL can't directly return the handgun back to the out-of-state seller due to federal law.

I need to double check, but what would prohibit an FFL from returning a firearm to an out of state resident by USPS/UPS/Fedex? It's no different than a California gunsmith returning the firearm directly to it's owner - which the out of stater is if the DROS to the CA resident fails.

As bdsmchs mentioned, there is no way to process a PPT DROS with an out-of-state seller's ID. Underground Regulation maybe?
Yep. We have no idea what to do to an Underground Regulation now do we?

-Gene

[bdsmchs]

As bdsmchs mentioned, there is no way to process a PPT DROS with an out-of-state seller's ID. Underground Regulation maybe?

So, I just double-checked.

DROS requires both buyer and sellers information in order to be able to submit it to the DOJ.

For the seller, there is a mandatory field "ID TYPE" and instead of giving you a place to type in the type of ID, it gives you a drop-down list of only 3 choices:
- CA ID number
- CA DL number
- Military ID number

If it is not illegal in CA to PPT between an out-of-state resident and an in-state resident (the in-state resident being the recipient of the firearm) then this definitely looks like an underground regulation to me :)

[ke6guj]

I need to double check, but what would prohibit an FFL from returning a firearm to an out of state resident by USPS/UPS/Fedex? It's no different than a California gunsmith returning the firearm directly to it's owner - which the out of stater is if the DROS to the CA resident fails.I would think so, but we'd need to look into to make sure. I do know the firearms return policy is fairly flexable so I would hope it would cover a failed PPT. Heck, an FFL can return a firearm across state lines after it was "repaired" from a Title 1 firearm into a Title 2 firearm. I think it would cover a return of a firearm back to the seller.


Yep. We have no idea what to do to an Underground Regulation now do we?

-Geneyup, no way to fight those. Just have to live with it, I guess :D

[bwiese]

Yup.

It's interesting - I believe exempt-from-Rostering PPT provisions were added so that people wouldn't bypass the law and sell/transfer non-Rostered handguns "under the table", paper-free.

It would do a disservice to this concept if nonresident folks in CA decided to sell a gun and found no graceful legal outlet in CA.

This actually may less be an issue of any DOJ BoF intent than simple system implementation issues.

Simple fix: drop down menu has 50 states/PR/VI, and takes driver's license or ID# from those entities. I believe some Calgunners could even volunteer fixes to the system (perhaps the state can't accept free labor, but I'm sure we could be the lowest-cost service provider).

[Librarian]

This actually may less be an issue of any DOJ BoF intent than simple system implementation issues.

And people sometimes suggest I'm a pollyanna... :)

From the DROS Manual (https://dros.vansis.wcom.com/wpsd/manual.pdf) at p 86 (Doc ver 9.02)
3.21 8/13/2003 The following changes/enhancements have been made in version
3.21:
• United States Citizen drop-down list added to indicate whether purchasers and sellers are citizens of the United States.
• Alien Registration # and I-94 # fields added to record
information about purchasers and sellers that are not citizens of the United States.
• Notice alert added to login process.
• Passport and Out of State ID sources have been removed.
• HSC field now allows alpha-numerics to be entered.
• Review Date field was added to the Review DROS for Submitted Application window.

P 57 of that document has the instructions for entering a Seller in a PPT.
To Enter Seller Information
1. Press the F6 key to bring up the Read Seller California ID or DMV Card
window, as shown in Figure 37. This window must be brought up before
you can scan the seller’s driver’s license.
Figure 37: The Read Seller California ID or DMV Card Window
2. Using the mag stripe reader, scan the seller’s driver’s license or
identification. The direction to scan the card is printed on the card
And no, I've never been able to discover the PC authority for such a limitation.

[ke6guj]

so now the question appears to be, what regulation/PC was the reason the out-of-state ID source removed?

[383green]

I believe some Calgunners could even volunteer fixes to the system (perhaps the state can't accept free labor, but I'm sure we could be the lowest-cost service provider).

Hmm, how about an underground regulation in the form of a "number of suppressors to be permitted" field? :chris:







(I'm joking! We all follow the rules here! Better than the law-makers do, in fact...)

[edwardm]

So what would happen if you swiped, say, a Nevada DL through the mag stripe reader at the DROS terminal?

Yeah, I read way too many issues of 2600 as a kid. :P


And people sometimes suggest I'm a pollyanna... :)

From the DROS Manual (https://dros.vansis.wcom.com/wpsd/manual.pdf) at p 86 (Doc ver 9.02)
3.21 8/13/2003 The following changes/enhancements have been made in version
3.21:
• United States Citizen drop-down list added to indicate whether purchasers and sellers are citizens of the United States.
• Alien Registration # and I-94 # fields added to record
information about purchasers and sellers that are not citizens of the United States.
• Notice alert added to login process.
• Passport and Out of State ID sources have been removed.
• HSC field now allows alpha-numerics to be entered.
• Review Date field was added to the Review DROS for Submitted Application window.

P 57 of that document has the instructions for entering a Seller in a PPT.

And no, I've never been able to discover the PC authority for such a limitation.

[Librarian]

So what would happen if you swiped, say, a Nevada DL through the mag stripe reader at the DROS terminal?

Yeah, I read way too many issues of 2600 as a kid. :P

Depending on where you lived in NV, you'd probably get Sparks.

[bwiese]

Librarian,

Thanks for finding that 'intentional act'.

Guess we have to let the tigers out of the cage :)

[dfletcher]

And people sometimes suggest I'm a pollyanna... :)

From the DROS Manual (https://dros.vansis.wcom.com/wpsd/manual.pdf) at p 86 (Doc ver 9.02)
3.21 8/13/2003 The following changes/enhancements have been made in version
3.21:
• United States Citizen drop-down list added to indicate whether purchasers and sellers are citizens of the United States.
• Alien Registration # and I-94 # fields added to record
information about purchasers and sellers that are not citizens of the United States.
• Notice alert added to login process.
• Passport and Out of State ID sources have been removed.
• HSC field now allows alpha-numerics to be entered.
• Review Date field was added to the Review DROS for Submitted Application window.

P 57 of that document has the instructions for entering a Seller in a PPT.

And no, I've never been able to discover the PC authority for such a limitation.

OK, I'm really bad with computers - dastardly little machines. But are you saying that some previous version of DROS used by the state allowed for entry of out of state licenses? As in, I walk in with my pal from Oregon and we swipe away and his info comes up same as mine?

If it had the capability and there is no residency by requirement by statute by what authority is it removed?

Just a slightly different play on the whole handgun frame issue, right?

[Librarian]

Librarian,

Thanks for finding that 'intentional act'.

Guess we have to let the tigers out of the cage :)

Wanna name the person inside the yarn ball?

[CalNRA]

holy schmuckers.

What am I reading here?:eek:

[Librarian]

OK, I'm really bad with computers - dastardly little machines. But are you saying that some previous version of DROS used by the state allowed for entry of out of state licenses? As in, I walk in with my pal from Oregon and we swipe away and his info comes up same as mine?
Dunno if the card readers could actually read out of state ID 'stripes' (there are probably several layouts for the data, though for 'official' purposes, I'm sure a state would share).

But it does appear that before the 2003 change, it was possible to use out of state ID for something.
If it had the capability and there is no residency by requirement by statute by what authority is it removed?
That's what we're just getting around to wondering.

Just a slightly different play on the whole handgun frame issue, right?

All part of the package, I begin to think.

[Liberty1]

I think I owe CA an apology. I actually love living here because of this site and seeing CA laws shoved up where the sun don't shine up in the Sac DOJ hindquarters. :D

[ke6guj]

Dunno if the card readers could actually read out of state ID 'stripes' (there are probably several layouts for the data, though for 'official' purposes, I'm sure a state would share).

But it does appear that before the 2003 change, it was possible to use out of state ID for something.
.

I'm trying to remember, but wasn't it around 2003 that CADOJ started requiring the FFL to swipe the ID? Whereas before, they could just type in the ID info. So, in order to not have to deal with programming in the swipe coding for 50+ ID/DLs, they just limited it to CA ID/DLs?

[truthseeker]

I need to double check, but what would prohibit an FFL from returning a firearm to an out of state resident by USPS/UPS/Fedex? It's no different than a California gunsmith returning the firearm directly to it's owner - which the out of stater is if the DROS to the CA resident fails.

-Gene

I thought this is also what happens if a CA FFL receives a AW or "Off list" handgun unsuspectingly (example: CA resident buys "An XD-45 Tactical Bi-Tone which couldn't be rostered because it's a different color than its rostered functional identical equivalents (wink, wink)" but thinks it's legal since ALL the other ones are on the list. The FFL receives it and discovers it is not legal to DROS to a "regular" CA citizen. FFL has no choice but to send back to seller).

[Librarian]

I'm trying to remember, but wasn't it around 2003 that CADOJ started requiring the FFL to swipe the ID? Whereas before, they could just type in the ID info. So, in order to not have to deal with programming in the swipe coding for 50+ ID/DLs, they just limited it to CA ID/DLs?
Can't quite tell from the manual. Change log says 3.07 5/24/2002 First release of DROS Entry System for the Internet application.and a later change log says 3.11 2/1/2003 The following changes/enhancements have been made in version 3.11:
• Fixed problems with card swipe readers not reading city names more than 12 characters.
So the app used card readers prior to 2/1/2003.

ETA: There's no technical reason why non-CA seller info cannot be entered without further software changes - the manual (p 94) says If the seller’s driver’s license or identification will not scan, their information can be entered manually.
Now, if the data validation routines complain about the DL number, that'd be a different issue.

[domokun]

http://www.themovieblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/burns-excellent.jpg

I like where this is headed...

[JDay]

I'm trying to remember, but wasn't it around 2003 that CADOJ started requiring the FFL to swipe the ID? Whereas before, they could just type in the ID info. So, in order to not have to deal with programming in the swipe coding for 50+ ID/DLs, they just limited it to CA ID/DLs?

Some state ID/DL cards only have a barcode on them.

[eltee]

I'm trying to remember, but wasn't it around 2003 that CADOJ started requiring the FFL to swipe the ID? Whereas before, they could just type in the ID info. So, in order to not have to deal with programming in the swipe coding for 50+ ID/DLs, they just limited it to CA ID/DLs?


IIRC, some "kitchen table" FFL's do not have card swipe capability. They take a photocopy of the CDL instead. I think this was not that long ago and may still be the practice.

On another spin...if someone with the dual residency situation (i.e., Nevada "seasonal resident" ID card and a California DL) buys a gun in Nevada as a Nev. (seasonal) resident and brings it into California and later sells it, wouldn't that sale go through since the seller would have his Calif. license for the PPT DROS?

[Midian]

What if he gifts you the weapon? Does that only apply to immediate family?

[bdsmchs]

On another spin...if someone with the dual residency situation (i.e., Nevada "seasonal resident" ID card and a California DL) buys a gun in Nevada as a Nev. (seasonal) resident and brings it into California and later sells it, wouldn't that sale go through since the seller would have his Calif. license for the PPT DROS?

That would be fine, but is not really what we're talking about.

[hawk1]

Uh, oh. I hear the rumbling, again....:D

[M. D. Van Norman]

Who is going to bring me my Caspian frames? Please don’t make me ask my mommy. :o

[bdsmchs]

Who is going to bring me my Caspian frames? Please don’t make me ask my mommy. :o

I actually have a good close friend who lives in Arizona and does frequently visit SoCal :)

I'm definitely thinking we're going to have to put this one to the test.

[M. D. Van Norman]

Group buy! :D

[trashman]

This is so interesting...not only does it poke more holes in the whole fallacy of the Roster, but it also starts to unwind the FTF PPT process as well.

I'm in between meetings, so I can't look it up right this second -- but is there traceability to a seller-residency-requirement in the statute that defines a "PPT" ? Since that is for our purposes a California (not a Federal) contrivance.

Otherwise it would appear that the law's authors forgot to complete the self-referencing loop in their legislation. Sort of a self-licking icecream cone.

Nice work, Gene!

--Neill

ETA: weird: except for the definition in 12082, there doesn't appear to be any other language in the PC related to defining PPTs. This is fantastic!..

[jasilva]

Been through this, shot down by DOJ system software. Gene I sent you a PM with some of the details.

Joe

[hoffmang]

We're moving forward on fixing this. We'll have an update in... TWO WEEKS!

-Gene

[bdsmchs]

We're moving forward on fixing this. We'll have an update in... TWO WEEKS!

-Gene

I <3 this thread :)

[trashman]

Sort of a self-licking icecream cone.


Looks like this might be a self-melting, rather than a self-licking, icecream cone....

Man I can't WAIT to get my hands on all those unsafe S&W's from 1960-2005....

--Neill

[McCrown]

From the DROS Manual (https://dros.vansis.wcom.com/wpsd/manual.pdf) at p 86 (Doc ver 9.02)
3.21 8/13/2003 The following changes/enhancements have been made in version
3.21:
• United States Citizen drop-down list added to indicate whether purchasers and sellers are citizens of the United States.
• Alien Registration # and I-94 # fields added to record
information about purchasers and sellers that are not citizens of the United States.
• Notice alert added to login process.
• Passport and Out of State ID sources have been removed.
• HSC field now allows alpha-numerics to be entered.
• Review Date field was added to the Review DROS for Submitted Application window.



so if I loose my CA DL then I can't even use my Passport to use as an ID source... that doesn't sound right.

[xLusi0n]

I am from AZ, visit CA regularly, and was just thinking of selling a CMMG Pistol registered AR. Except I'm overseas at the moment.

[RP1911]

I'm thinking a four-pronged attack:

1) interfering with a legal (see number 2) interstate transaction. {legal in other two states - but not between CA and another state?}

2) interfering with Fed law that mandates a legal transaction has to go through an FFL- hence why number 1) above

3) underground regs as mentioned in previous posts

4) incorporation (Nordyke) and/or DC roster law unconstitutional

[DDT]

so if I loose my CA DL then I can't even use my Passport to use as an ID source... that doesn't sound right.

Your passport doesn't have your residence.

[Spelunker]

Your passport doesn't have your residence.

The passport shows the state you live in but they will not take it. Maybe that will change in 2 WEEKS:eek:

[DDT]

The passport shows the state you live in but they will not take it. Maybe that will change in 2 WEEKS:eek:

Don't have my valid one handy but my last punched Passport only lists State of Birth, not residence.

[Spelunker]

Don't have my valid one handy but my last punched Passport only lists State of Birth, not residence.

My bad, I just looked at mine and it is place of birth. You are correct.

[DDT]

My bad, I just looked at mine and it is place of birth. You are correct.

I cheated, the two are different for me

[Big O]

Perhaps they can accept your passport as proof of identity and a dot matrix printout of your CA DL or ID (the one DMV gives you right away while you wait for the real one in the mail) for proof of CA residency?

[DDT]

I was just re-looking at this and it is dependent upon the sellers home state NOT requiring an in-state FFL to do the transfer. I suspect that most handgun transfer laws would reference the state FFL sections like CA's does.

Just as I couldn't go to another state and SELL my firearm because
12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. requires me to only sell firearms through a CA FFL.

The seller would have to come from a state that allows FTF transfers.

[Soldier415]

Nice. I will be waiting impatiently to see the results of this.

[sreiter]

on a somewhat related note - When i moved here from Co. I called the DOJ and asked about a gun that was on the rooster. They said I could bring it in no problem. I just couldnt BUY it here. I guess to your point, i ow have my CDL and could sell it PTP

[bdsmchs]

Just as I couldn't go to another state and SELL my firearm because
requires me to only sell firearms through a CA FFL.



I don't think that's true.

Otherwise you would be breaking the law every time you sold a firearm by shipping it to an out-of-state FFL.

[hoffmang]

As long as you use an FFL that complies with the buyer's state laws, you can sell a firearm anywhere in the United States.

-Gene

[thejackamo]

Oooh, I like where this is headed...

[foxtrotuniformlima]

WOW - just WOW

[DDT]

As long as you use an FFL that complies with the buyer's state laws, you can sell a firearm anywhere in the United States.

-Gene

I had mistakenly thought the law stated the FFL had to comply with both the state of the buyer and the seller. It actually says both the state of the purchaser and the state in which the transfer is happening.

[Decoligny]

So, I have a co-worker who is active duty Military, Nevada resident, stationed in California, so California considers him a California Resident.

If he were to decide to buy several off roster handguns in his home state of Nevada, then come back here to his California residence, he could do a PPT for up to 6 handguns per year, and sell the guns at whatever profit margin the CA market will provide?

I think he may be interested in a few trips back home during the year.

[dilligaffrn]

We're moving forward on fixing this. We'll have an update in... TWO WEEKS!

-Gene

LOL, good work and nice time line, line!

[plink182]

If that's the case, smart visitors could basically get themselves free trips to California. How much would a Seecamp 380 go for here? A Colt Python?

Yep good point, BUT Colt Python is on the roster =p

I3060CS Python (silver) / Stainless Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 7/24/2009

remember to check the roster first.

[ke6guj]

Yep good point, BUT Colt Python is on the roster =p

I3060CS Python (silver) / Stainless Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 7/24/2009

remember to check the roster first.But only that particular model. If I don't want a 6" stainless Python, I'm SOL.

[plink182]

But only that particular model. If I don't want a 6" stainless Python, I'm SOL.

Yea True enough.

[bbrown9420]

Hi,

I am unclear on California's handgun laws, and I was hoping someone could answer a specific question I have. I would like to purchase an AMT Harballer Long Slide .45 ACP, but I cannot find one in California. So my question is "Can I legally purchase one from out of state?"

[bbrown9420]

I should have been more clear.
I meant to ask:

"Can I purchase private party, an AMT Hardballer Longslide .45 ACP, from someone out of state, even though it is not on California's list of approved handguns?"

[NiteQwill]

I should have been more clear.
I meant to ask:

"Can I purchase private party, an AMT Hardballer Longslide .45 ACP, from someone out of state, even though it is not on California's list of approved handguns?"

Nope, all firearms transactions [for Cali residents] must occur at a CA FFL.

[bdsmchs]

I should have been more clear.
I meant to ask:

"Can I purchase private party, an AMT Hardballer Longslide .45 ACP, from someone out of state, even though it is not on California's list of approved handguns?"

Yes, but you can only do the transaction INSIDE California.

All of the logistics are still being worked out, but it should be legal for Joe Nevada to bring into California an off-roster handgun like your AMT Hardballer Longslide, meet you at a California FFL, and then have the FFL process it like a standard PPT.

Anyways, Gene started this thread to Iron out the legalities and logistics. I recommend that you read it from the beginning.

[shark92651]

This actually may less be an issue of any DOJ BoF intent than simple system implementation issues.

Simple fix: drop down menu has 50 states/PR/VI, and takes driver's license or ID# from those entities. I believe some Calgunners could even volunteer fixes to the system (perhaps the state can't accept free labor, but I'm sure we could be the lowest-cost service provider).

Open source the DROS system? ;)

[jmf_tracy]

I need to double check, but what would prohibit an FFL from returning a firearm to an out of state resident by USPS/UPS/Fedex? It's no different than a California gunsmith returning the firearm directly to it's owner - which the out of stater is if the DROS to the CA resident fails.

-Gene

no problem. field strip the gun and ship, it is no longer a handgun. it is now 'machined parts'. no regulation.

[hoffmang]

no problem. field strip the gun and ship, it is no longer a handgun. it is now 'machined parts'. no regulation.

That is not correct. The frame or receiver is still considered a firearm. For more on that, see my thread on NRF Underground Regulations.

-Gene

[DDT]

What is the status of this? Are you planning on sending a petition to OAL regarding the underground regulation based on the non-availability of other ID types in the DROS software?

[hoffmang]

What is the status of this? Are you planning on sending a petition to OAL regarding the underground regulation based on the non-availability of other ID types in the DROS software?

Patience :43:

-Gene

[DDT]

Patience :43:

-Gene

I'm using all of my patience waiting for the 9th Circuit right now.

[joaoalegre]

so if I loose my CA DL then I can't even use my Passport to use as an ID source... that doesn't sound right.

That means you're an illegal immigrant to the Republik of Kalifornia

[Sam]

Yet more evidence that California legislators have no business writing legislation.

[DDT]

Yet more evidence that California legislators have no business writing legislation.

The legislation makes perfect sense. Buyers in CA must show certain types of ID and all PPTs go through FFL. It makes perfect sense from the legislators point of view. It's the BoF that has no business writing regulations and enforcing statutes.

[jhaselton]

Subscribe'd to this one. I like the sounds of it.