HK takedown pins legal in CA?

[tactic101]

Is it legal in CA to use spring loaded push pins to attach the buttstock of a rifle? Specifically, I'm thinking of a little GSG5 mod which switches out the takedown screws with spring-loaded HK takedown pins for easier stripping and cleaning of the receiver. Rifle length with the stock attached is >26 inches of course.

Another poster at arf.com expressed a question about this, the permanence of such a pin, etc. Since I had been planning on doing this switchout myself, I looked up the CA PC which seems to be his concern, which I think is the phrase "readily restored" below. My reading is that "restored" refers to the firing ability, not the assembly/disassembly of the stock, etc. Any thoughts on this?




(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of
the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed
cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

[B Strong]

What's the overall length with the stock removed?

If it's longer than 26" there should be no issue.

[bwiese]

Note that 30" min OAL is the triggerpoint for AW status for semiauto CENTERFIRE rifles.

Also, removal of the buttstock means it's no longer a rifle as it's not intended to be shoulder fired in that configuration.

[tactic101]

Note that 30" min OAL is the triggerpoint for AW status for semiauto CENTERFIRE rifles.

Also, removal of the buttstock means it's no longer a rifle as it's not intended to be shoulder fired in that configuration.

The GSG5 is rimfire, a .22LR clone of an HK MP5. The buttstock must be removed to strip the reciever and clean the gun; certainly removing the buttstock for that purpose is not illegal, is it?

[bwiese]

The GSG5 is rimfire, a .22LR clone of an HK MP5. The buttstock must be removed to strip the reciever and clean the gun; certainly removing the buttstock for that purpose is not illegal, is it?

Correct!

[B Strong]

The GSG5 is rimfire, a .22LR clone of an HK MP5. The buttstock must be removed to strip the reciever and clean the gun; certainly removing the buttstock for that purpose is not illegal, is it?

In stripping the rifle for cleaning, repair or customization, you don't trigger an overall length violation short of cutting the barrel to a length less than 16"

Don't worry about stripping your rifle for cleaning, and using the HK takedown pins is not a problem either.

[tactic101]

What's the overall length with the stock removed?

If it's longer than 26" there should be no issue.

Without any stock it would be under 26", maybe about 25". Not sure of the actual length since other than cleaning and changing stocks I always have a stock installed. Not sure if it matters but this is a .22LR semi auto rifle, not a centerfire gun.

[tactic101]

In stripping the rifle for cleaning, repair or customization, you don't trigger an overall length violation short of cutting the barrel to a length less than 16"

Don't worry about stripping your rifle for cleaning, and using the HK takedown pins is not a problem either.

Thanks for your input. :thumbsup:

So it is ok per California PC to have the rifle configuration <26" during "cleaning, repair or customization?" Seems obvious, since how else does a short little reciever become a long rifle without being under the OAL limit, or a rifle get taken apart to repair, etc without going under the OAL requirement? I'm just being overly cautious.

[cedricxerxes]

I have been wrestling with the same issue. I installed the small push pins in my hand guard and receiver. I haven't installed the large push pin on my stock yet, because I am concerned that this configuration would be viewed as a SBR ala the "quick detachable stock" Uzi's.

http://files.uzitalk.com/reference/pages/review-fixedstock.htm
http://www.uzi-world.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38374

As already stated, the GSG-5 is a rim fire rifle with an OAL < 26" with the stock removed. The HK push pins don't require a tool to remove. Does that meet the definition of quick detachable stock? I don't know, I'm no lawyer.

I'm not worried about the OAL while cleaning, but on the range with a push pin....

[Quiet]

Can you safely fire the GSG5 with the stock removed?

If not, quit being over cautious and use the push pins. :p

[Seesm]

I think you can fire it with the stock removed...


But he saying to clean it so kinda a non issue.

....but if your shooting with no stock I would guess yeah your illegal...

[tactic101]

I think you can fire it with the stock removed...


But he saying to clean it so kinda a non issue.

....but if your shooting with no stock I would guess yeah your illegal...

Clearly illegal without the stock due to length, but as you mention that's not what I'm asking.

My original question is whether HK pin used to fix the stock are acceptable/legal. The stock GSG comes with stock fixing screw...

The legal question on firing without the stock everywhere I've read is can the rifle be "safely fired" without the stock. Without the stock, the back of the receiver is completely open, exposing the breach block (which is held in place by a small screw). It would not be safe to fire without a stock, IMHO. There is a pistol version of the gun which has an endplate covering this entire area, I'm guessing at least partly for safety reasons.

[cedricxerxes]

Can you safely fire the GSG5 with the stock removed?

If not, quit being over cautious and use the push pins. :p
I haven't tried firing it without the stock, but the stock doesn't have anything to do with the action. There is a separate "bolt stopper". It looks to me like it will fire without the stock (unlike HK's). Currently, the stock is held in place by a screw. If I do install the push pin, I'll probably drill and tap a cross-wise set-screw to "secure" the push pin. But, hey, to each their own.

If someone knows definitively that GSG-5 will or won't fire without the stock, it would answer the question.

I personally don't mind being overly-cautious when it comes to NFA. Everybody has their own tolerance of risk. Realistically, I think there is little chance that anyone, let alone the ATF, would ever give my rifle a second glance. On the other hand, the risk is beyond my pain point. I personally am not going to roll the dice on a felony conviction with up to 10 years in federal prison, forfeiture my right to possess firearms, let alone the criminal and civil fines or whatever CA DOJ would pile on.

.

[tactic101]

It looks to me like it will fire without the stock (unlike HK's).

What about removing the HK stock prevents firing? The HK stock, from pictures I've seen seems to be almost identical to the GSG, at least in shape, though apparently not fit and finish. Very slight shape differences where the stock meets the grooves on the receiver.

I personally am not going to roll the dice on a felony conviction with up to 10 years in federal prison, forfeiture my right to possess firearms, let alone the criminal and civil fines or whatever CA DOJ would pile on.

You and me both. California DOJ had to approve the GSG for importation didn't they? I'm assuming they've seen it and are ok with its stock attachment, even the fact that it arrives partially disassembled. Maybe an inquiry letter to DOJ is in order.

[ke6guj]

What about removing the HK stock prevents firing? The HK stock, from pictures I've seen seems to be almost identical to the GSG, at least in shape, though apparently not fit and finish. Very slight shape differences where the stock meets the grooves on the receiver. an HK9x-series firearm is open in the back of the receiver. The stock contains the recoil spring and without the stock attached, if you pulled the trigger, you'd be eating the bolt carrier.

[Seesm]

I love the taste of a good bolt carrier group in the morning myself anyway!! :)

[tactic101]

an HK9x-series firearm is open in the back of the receiver. The stock contains the recoil spring and without the stock attached, if you pulled the trigger, you'd be eating the bolt carrier.

Ok, got it. :D How does the MP5K keep everything within the reciever? Shorter, stiffer spring?

[cedricxerxes]

I love the taste of a good bolt carrier group in the morning myself anyway!! :)

Nothing like the taste of bolt carrier and the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like victory!

[ke6guj]

Ok, got it. :D How does the MP5K keep everything within the reciever? Shorter, stiffer spring?It has an endcap that slips into the end of the receiver.

You can just see it the pimptastic pic at this link, http://www.hkpro.com/mp5k.htm

[cedricxerxes]

California DOJ had to approve the GSG for importation didn't they? I'm assuming they've seen it and are ok with its stock attachment, even the fact that it arrives partially disassembled. Maybe an inquiry letter to DOJ is in order.

I don't know of any special CA DOJ approval necessary for the GSG's to be sold in CA. You may have to deal with the standard FUD with out-of-state (and some in-state) FFL's, because it's black, has a pistol grip, or shoots bullets. Out-of-state FFL's have to deal with CFLC.

GSG-5's are semi-automatic rim-fire rifles. As such, they aren't subject to CA Penal Code 12276.1. The only CA-specific issues I know of are magazine capacity (10 round maximum) and OAL (26" minimum). If the rifle has a collapsible/folding stock, CA measures OAL differently than the Feds. CA measures it with stock closed. The Feds measure it with the stock extended. Some GSG folding stocks when closed result in a CA OAL of less than 26".

If the stock is "quick detachable" AND the rifle can fire with the stock removed, the Feds will measure the OAL with the quick detachable stock removed. I believe it's for this reason that HK 9x's and their clones don't have to worry about the whole OAL SBR issue with push pins. They can't be "fired" with the stock removed.

I don't know how CA views this.

One bit of good news from the Federal standpoint is imported rim-fire rifles are exempt from 922r. So you don't have to worry about US made parts if you modify the firearm from its Federal "approved" import configuration.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=41&t=261279



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[tactic101]

If the stock is "quick detachable" AND the rifle can fire with the stock removed, the Feds will measure the OAL with the quick detachable stock removed. I believe it's for this reason that HK 9x's and their clones don't have to worry about the whole OAL SBR issue with push pins. They can't be "fired" with the stock removed.

cedricxerxes, do you know what the source is for the "quick detachable" rule? I tried in vain to Google it, including the ATF website but can't find anything. I'm not looking in the right places.

[cedricxerxes]

cedricxerxes, do you know what the source is for the "quick detachable" rule? I tried in vain to Google it, including the ATF website but can't find anything. I'm not looking in the right places.

Let me do some digging on my end to see if I can find some ATF docs. In the mean time, I would start with the links in Post #9. The Uzi folks have already dealt with this issue. They either fix the old detachable stocks or have a longer barrel.

With that said, I don't know that the ATF has given anything other than guidance letters (as opposed to rulings or regulations) on the subject, if that. Like many firearm "laws", this is a gray area. If you ask three people, you'll probably get five answers.

Do I know for a fact using push pins for the stock would subject the rifle to SBR status? Absolutely not. Does it seem plausible to me that CA DOJ or BATF could make the case or would try to? Sure.

The QD Uzi stocks didn't require a tool to remove AND Uzi's can fire with the stock removed. Plenty of Uzi owners seem to agree that they could be subject to SBR requirements if they didn't either fix the stock or have an OAL longer than 26" with the stock removed.

Push pin GSG-5 rifle stocks don't require a tool to remove AND as far as I can tell can fire with the stock removed. The GSG-5 OAL is less than 26" with the stock removed. This seems consistent to me with the Uzi QD situation. I don't know if this makes it illegal or legal. It's just too gray for me personally to take the risk.

Since the GSG-5 currently requires a tool to remove the stock, I will use a method to secure the push pin that also requires a tool. That's just me.


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