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View Full Version : Is the AR-180A off-list?


sanb909
03-20-2009, 3:36 PM
A CA dealer recently had (may still have) one for sale.

Opinions?

freonr22
03-20-2009, 3:44 PM
http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi?No=No&qq=4

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi?Yes=Yes&qq=5

if its an armalite no its not. Take a peek @ the top of the header for calguns. they have an interactive flowchart.. kinda neat and alot of work went into it

bwiese
03-20-2009, 3:48 PM
The dealer you write of would not offer an illegal "AW-by-name".

Indeed an Armalite AR-180 is not listed in the Roberti-Roos list (12276PC + 11 CCR 5495)

It's also not listed in the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499) - [and even if it were, it'd be challengeable since there's no way an AR180 design could rationally be considered part of the "AR15 series"].

As long as its configured properly - gripless/featureless or uses a 10rd mag latched in via a BulletButton-like device - it's good to go.

freonr22
03-20-2009, 3:53 PM
my bad mistake Mr. Wiese,
I thought this meant a nono
But I am a noob
19211

Wildhawk66
03-20-2009, 4:14 PM
Indeed an Armalite AR-180 is not listed in the Roberti-Roos list (12276PC + 11 CCR 5495)

Intersting. Armalite AR-180 is listed here under California Code of Regulations §979.10 / PC 12276 “Roberti-Roos” list. page 13 of the doc.
http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

Also here in the assualt weapons guide here. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

Is the A in AR-180A enough difference to make a AR-180A legal while a AR-180 is not?

sanb909
03-20-2009, 4:18 PM
So it's unlikely to trigger a "Son of Harrott" situation, then? This is unlike buying any of the SLR "series" guns, even though Harrott (by my non-legal read, admittedly) would require that the gun be mentioned by SPECIFIC [make and] model, not merely by series designation?

Similarly, would a RPB/MAC (cannot remember make) CBM10 (versus) same make/M10 be a safe situation? The gun in question has an almost after-market appearance to the "CB" designation on the receiver, which looks like a half-hearted attempt by someone to skirt the rules and produce an off-list weapon. Now, I am not accusing anyone of doing this, but rather speculating what Alison might argue should the gun ever wind up being investigated.

Thanks, Bill.

bohoki
03-20-2009, 4:22 PM
i wasn't familar with the 180a just the 180b

what is the difference?

sanb909
03-20-2009, 4:28 PM
"i wasn't familar with the 180a just the 180b"

I wasn't aware that either existed until lately.

What I'm trying to determine is whether or not the AR-180A is as risky as buying any of the Arsenal SLR series guns.

The Harrott decision seemed to say that the gun needed to be specifically designated by make/model, which according to some people means any of the SLR series is a bad idea.

In light of that interpretation, the degree of "whislting past the graveyard" with the addition of the "A" designation is concerning to some of us.

sanb909
03-20-2009, 4:33 PM
A quick google search did not yield results for the AR-180 A.

It did, however, reveal sites detailing the AR-180 B, including this one:

http://www.ar-180.com/

elSquid
03-20-2009, 4:40 PM
Intersting. Armalite AR-180 is listed here under California Code of Regulations §979.10 / PC 12276 “Roberti-Roos” list. page 13 of the doc.
http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

Also here in the assualt weapons guide here. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf


And here:

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=12001-13000&file=12275-12278

12276(a)(17) Armalite AR-180

-- Michael

nic
03-20-2009, 4:45 PM
Threads like these make me so sad.
I have always wanted an AR180. Bummer.

hybridatsun350
03-20-2009, 6:10 PM
There is no such thing as an AR-180A. Only the original AR-180 and the AR-180B.

sanb909
03-20-2009, 6:19 PM
Not true. PM me for more info if interested.

tiger222
03-20-2009, 6:20 PM
Threads like these make me so sad.
I have always wanted an AR180. Bummer.

+1 on that. Should of bought one when they were $376 NIB and you could walk out with it same day. AR15 SP1's were $485 for the longest time.

The AR180B's just don't do it for me, too cheesy looking, if armalite just spent a little more $ to make it look more like the original...

hybridatsun350
03-20-2009, 6:27 PM
Not true. PM me for more info if interested.

You're telling me Armalite produced an AR-180A?

sanb909
03-20-2009, 6:33 PM
The receiver read "Armalite AR-180A."

I never heard of it before, but was assured that it was "off-list" by the salesperson, who seemed on top of all the gun laws.

I have several AR-15 clones and numerous semi's in 7.62x51, so I deferred. I have to admit that my skepticism probably played a role in that decision, though.

bohoki
03-22-2009, 1:26 AM
The receiver read "Armalite AR-180A."

I never heard of it before, but was assured that it was "off-list" by the salesperson, who seemed on top of all the gun laws.

I have several AR-15 clones and numerous semi's in 7.62x51, so I deferred. I have to admit that my skepticism probably played a role in that decision, though.

did it say made in japan?

sanb909
03-22-2009, 1:42 AM
LOL

It didn't look like the CBM10 that I saw, where the "CB" looked engraved after the fact.

nic
03-22-2009, 7:47 AM
+1 on that. Should of bought one when they were $376 NIB and you could walk out with it same day. AR15 SP1's were $485 for the longest time.

The AR180B's just don't do it for me, too cheesy looking, if armalite just spent a little more $ to make it look more like the original...

Oh man, at least you had a chance to buy these things. I was 14 in 1999 when the CA AWB came along. No chance at all...

Which is why I love Calguns.

OC_Gunman
03-22-2009, 3:20 PM
The dealer you write of would not offer an illegal "AW-by-name".

Indeed an Armalite AR-180 is not listed in the Roberti-Roos list (12276PC + 11 CCR 5495)

It's also not listed in the Kasler list (11 CCR 5499) - [and even if it were, it'd be challengeable since there's no way an AR180 design could rationally be considered part of the "AR15 series"].

As long as its configured properly - gripless/featureless or uses a 10rd mag latched in via a BulletButton-like device - it's good to go.

my bad mistake Mr. Wiese,
I thought this meant a nono
But I am a noob
19211

These two posts are incompatible.

AJAX22
03-22-2009, 3:37 PM
The Sterling manufactured Armalite 180 is a distinct and different firearm from the Armalite manufactured AR 180B. The sterling gun has a sheet metal lower receiver and takes proprietary mags (very similar to ar15 but with a different mag catch) while the Armalite 180B has a polymer receiver and takes unmodified standard AR15 magazines.

I would love to see an AR180A as It should not exist according to all the info I can find and is probably a prototype. I seriously think you were looking at an AR180B... but if you weren't let me know what the shop was so I can put a deposit down on it immediately.... I know of several collectors who would freak over that.

The manufacturer of the AR180 which is banned by name is the sterling variant, The AR180B is NOT a listed gun, it is a completely different receiver.

There is an identical version (to the sterling ar180) made by HOWA for a brief time called the AR180s which was produced in minute quantities and is also not listed. Its rare and expensive and I've never actually seen one myself.

As far as an RPB CBM10, yes those exist and they are a real variant.

The CB was added by hand by the folks at RPB when the ATF prevented them from selling their open bolt semi's in 1982.. so they came up with the closed bolt system we know of today.

The CBM10 is one of the very few ways you can actually own a 9mm M10 closed bolt type pistol as only two variants were ever produced with these features, and the RPB CBM10 is the only one with a dedicated 9mm magazine well.

As for the 'CB' looking cheezy, well RPB cut a lot of corners in manufacture (you can thank your lucky stars they did) all of their semi auto variants (both closed and open bolt) were created from machine gun receivers which were stamped by hand to add a prefix of some sort to the model... i.e. sapM10 sM10 CBM10 etc.)

while not as popular as the open bolt variants the CBM10 is probably the single rarest RPB variant in existence. several hundred thousand open bolt semi autos were made (they were REALLY popular) but the CBM10 was only made for a very brief period and in tiny numbers.




EDIT TO ADD

So in summary, YES those are legal