LEO training, he needs help. BIG TIME!

[mif_slim]

Okay, so, Im not against LEO...but dang, why does this stuff keep happening in my area?! There were a police shooting a guy in the train station a while ago, then in Fresno two officer beats up a homeless guy and then I heard on the news a few weeks back about 5 police officers shooting one BG and the BG wounded the police officers while the BG just decided give up..anyways so this adds to it:

My friend from St. Paul came over to visit for the week. He’s a LEO and had been at it for about 8 years. So, he came over and he and I decided to go to the range. He shot his Glock 17 and I shot my XD40. He talked about how much training they did and all his experience. It was cool to listen to some of his crazy stories on the field. Not much though, just funny things that people do and say to get out of a speeding ticket and stuff. Anyways, down to the shooting range. My buddy was shooting with his 9mm at 25 yards and he was getting a 7 MOA group. 7 MOA!?! I’m not bragging but I had 3 MOA. All shooting was off hand. I’m thinking, WTF?! This guy is suppose to protect people and he cant even shoot?!

You know, I respect the people who risk their lives every day to keep law n order but, on the other hand, if SHTF and a LEO was there and can’t shoot worth crap, I would rather take the firearm from him/her and neutralize the threat myself then watch him put both our lives in danger.

This is getting crazy, why all of a sudden I see a lot of LEO with the lack of skills to shoot? Again, I think they need more training.

[kato4moto]

It seems that many LEOs are not "gun guys" first. The carrying of a weapon to them is not the reason they joined the department. So, the training they undergo (don't know myself but maybe qualification twice a year?) is the only time they actually use their firearm, and they're not inclined to hit the range on their own time and use their own ammo (which costs them their own money).

[lawaia]

So, are you saying he had a 7" group at 25 yards? 7 moa is 7" at 100 yards. 7" at 25 yards is pretty decent in my book. Sounds like he's right in the COM zone to me.

[mif_slim]

that is my bad, its 7" groups at 25 yards. a 7" group at 25 yards is good, when he's calm and firing, but Im sure that group will open up under stress and pressure, maybe to 14" who knows...

Although I do undertand that a LEO isnt in for shooting and the right to carry a gun but thats their last resort, if they have to act upon using their tools I dont care if its arresting someone, helping a cat off a tree or having to shoot someone, they should be well rounded in all the area of their work.

[6172crew]

My buddy watches the range (a trailer) and says alot of the LE guys really cant shoot well...or really dont care to shoot well. Some cant qualify and they have to come back later.

The LASD guys qual 2 times a year which imo isnt enough. If they were looking for someone to help out Id be all over it...just pay me in ammo.

[ghostwong]

You should get him a .22, and have him work on all the elements of shooting. I was watch some LAPD officers qualify at their range 2 days ago. They were putting almost everything into center mass (10 box). As my buddy says, he just needs to shoot, shoot, and shoot more to get better.

[Kid Stanislaus]

Although I do undertand that a LEO isnt in for shooting and the right to carry a gun but thats their last resort, if they have to act upon using their tools I dont care if its arresting someone, helping a cat off a tree or having to shoot someone, they should be well rounded in all the area of their work.

You've probably touched on the core of the problem. I'm convinced there are just TOO MANY hours of "getting cats out of trees" training at the Police Academy!!;)

[homerm14]

There are a lot of factors left out here. Ammo, speed, firearm, sights, how many rounds. BY the way 7 inches at 25 yards will probably kill. True under stress your groups will probably get larger, but remember just because you shoot 3 inch groups on paper, slow fire at a range with no one shooting back does'nt mean you are a better gunfighter then you friend. He may be a lot less stressed in gunfights than you, or vise versa. I know guys who are not the best shots, but have done very well in actual gun fights.

[b.faust]

I think LEO are like everyone else with firearms. There are guys that shoot quarters all day long, and guys that end up with a pattern that wouldn't even be respectable for a shotgun blast.

To me it's like cooking, if you enjoy doing it, you do it regularly enough to get good, and improve recipes. If you don't enjoy it, you end up burning toast.

Add to the fact, a few LEO friends of mine have told me, after a lot of OT several days in a row, the last thing they want to spend their free time on is going to the range.

B.

[mif_slim]

Trust me, this guy had been a friend of mines for over 18 years, I know him too well. In paintball games, hes the one hugging the bunkers all day and never peaks out to fire a round until we eliminate most of the other team.

His speed of shooting was taking aim and firing, I usually (and on that day) shoot at least 1 shot per second.

Bottom line is, how the hell did he get qualified to be a LEO?!

[Casual Observer]

Trust me, this guy had been a friend of mines for over 18 years, I know him too well. In paintball games, hes the one hugging the bunkers all day and never peaks out to fire a round until we eliminate most of the other team.

So he's smart. So what? :cool:

[homerm14]

So he's smart. So what? :cool:

Agreed! He is probably taught to use cover and concealment when ever he can.

[homerm14]

Trust me, this guy had been a friend of mines for over 18 years, I know him too well. In paintball games, hes the one hugging the bunkers all day and never peaks out to fire a round until we eliminate most of the other team.

His speed of shooting was taking aim and firing, I usually (and on that day) shoot at least 1 shot per second.

Bottom line is, how the hell did he get qualified to be a LEO?!

I can only speak for California, but qualifying is not that hard. LEO qualification is no harder than CCW qualification. Some departments ask for more. I would guess anyone that is competent with a handgun should be able to pass. I shoot my departments qualification perfect every time (so far) and some times I tape the sights on my gun so I have to point shoot (from 4 to 25 yards). I practice once a week and also shoot bullseye (50 yards) with my duty pistol and ammo.

[sgtbuck]

Officers are not hired for there shooting ability. They have to be well rounded in all areas. They have many things that they have to know and shooting is just one of them. Most Officers will never pull the trigger in the line of duty. It is actually very rare. I know Officers that have served 20 years or more and never pulled the trigger. It is hard to say what anyone would do in a life or death situation until they have been there. They say your accuracy goes down 50% from the range shooting compared to a real situation. I am an average shooter not great but always passed my quarterly shoots. When I had my situation I had 100% hit rate on the suspect within 10 feet. This was with the suspect shooting at me. A lot goes through your head when this is happing. First off you have to know your back drop, if I miss will I hit someone else, what other dangers do I have to see? We had Officers that shot very good at the range and always scored better then me but when they were involved in shootings they emptied there guns within 10 feet of the suspect and never hit them. This is a fact of life, everyone is different. You can be the best at the range but until you have done it with someone shooting back at you; you just never know how well you will shoot.

[homerm14]

Officers are not hired for there shooting ability. They have to be well rounded in all areas. They have many things that they have to know and shooting is just one of them. Most Officers will never pull the trigger in the line of duty. It is actually very rare. I know Officers that have served 20 years or more and never pulled the trigger. It is hard to say what anyone would do in a life or death situation until they have been there. They say your accuracy goes down 50% from the range shooting compared to a real situation. I am an average shooter not great but always passed my quarterly shoots. When I had my situation I had 100% hit rate on the suspect within 10 feet. This was with the suspect shooting at me. A lot goes through head when this is happing. First off you have to know your back drop, if I miss will I hit someone else, what other dangers do I have to see? We had Officers that shot very good at the range and always scored better then me but when they were involved in shootings they emptied there guns within 10 feet of the suspect and never hit them. This is a fact of life, everyone is different. You can be the best at the range but until you have done it with someone shooting back at you; you just never know how well you will shoot.

That pretty much sums it up.

[mif_slim]

Thats very true, but if you can shoot better and be better under stress you will be that much better. I had two SHTF and I think that I've dealt with it good enough to see another day, and, range time and practice with my firearm along with alot of paintball(lol) and SD training helped me. You can never have enough RIGHT training because practice doesnt make perfect but correct practice makes perfect.

Its like that killing spree in India where LEO just watched and hiding behind cover and didnt do anything about it...thats the kind of stuff I wouldnt trust being with a LEO if their doing just that, hiding.

[homerm14]

Thats very true, but if you can shoot better and be better under stress you will be that much better. I had two SHTF and I think that I've dealt with it good enough to see another day, and, range time and practice with my firearm along with alot of paintball(lol) and SD training helped me. You can never have enough RIGHT training because practice doesnt make perfect but correct practice makes perfect.

Its like that killing spree in India where LEO just watched and hiding behind cover and didnt do anything about it...thats the kind of stuff I wouldnt trust being with a LEO if their doing just that, hiding.

Sure practice is not going to hurt and accuracy builds confidence which always helps.

[sgtbuck]

Thats very true, but if you can shoot better and be better under stress you will be that much better. I had two SHTF and I think that I've dealt with it good enough to see another day, and, range time and practice with my firearm along with alot of paintball(lol) and SD training helped me. You can never have enough RIGHT training because practice doesnt make perfect but correct practice makes perfect.

Its like that killing spree in India where LEO just watched and hiding behind cover and didnt do anything about it...thats the kind of stuff I wouldnt trust being with a LEO if their doing just that, hiding.

I could not agree more. I was like you always praticing mainly because I like to shoot. Those paint balls do hurt when they hit LOL. I retired three years ago and continue to shoot at least once a month.

Wow you had two that is very rare. Talk about a high pucker factor. Its not fun thats for sure and the red tape afterwards wow. Its not somthing I would wish on anyone.

[Dr Rockso]

7" at 25 yds is not a bad group; 25 yds is a pretty long handgun shot. I've seen LE who were all over the place at 7 yds, that's who I'd worry about.

[Gnome]

Most of the comments on this thread are correct (with the exception of the OP). LE duties entail a lot more than shooting a gun. Shooting your gun is a small portion of LE is. Though I beleive it is an important aspect for Officer Survival, there are also other pressing issues such as Career Survival that we deal with more often.

As such, many LE dont practice as often as John Q. Citizen with a Mon-Fri, 9-5 job. Our hours are long and varied. And like another poster said, after a 10-12 hour shift, and then standind by four court in the morning, the last thing an LE wants to do is go to the range.

Also, many LEOs are not gun enthusiasts. Its just a tool. Obviously, a gun enthusiasts is going to shoot better than a person who sees the gun as just another tool.

I can tell you that contrary to popular belief, LE Depts dont hand out free ammo. My dept charges for practice and duty ammo, just like any other store would. Yes they do give it to us at a discounted price, but it still adds up. And if I should want to practice, the range is usually being used for the non stop academies that we are running through.

Im a member of LASD, I can tell you that we qualify more than two times a year. We qualify three times a year :D I agree that it is entirely way too little, but it's not my call.

OP, yeah you may shoot better than your LE buddy when standing in a controled enviornment and shooting at paper targets. Try keeping your 3 MOA grouping while shooting crouched, from behind cover, at night, while the target is shooting back at you. I gurantee the grouping will be non-existent.

As an LE, a shooting involves more than sight allignment, smooth trigger pull, and breathing. It involves all that I mentioned previously, using the radio to call for back up, coordinating resources, and not getting your head blown off.

So Mif Slim, if you think you can do all of that and maintain your MOA, then kudos to you. Please feel free to "neutralize the threat" yourself. That had to be one of the most arrogant posts I've ever read.

[mif_slim]

Look, I said and I will say it again, I respect LEO and their duty. Outside of your duty with no weapon and you get into a SHTF and a officer is there but cant hit worth crap, would you trust your life with him/her? If he/she told you to follow them but didnt know crap would you? Its like if someone jumps off a cliff and tells you to do the same would you?
I know that LE is not just about shooting, but when it comes down to it, a logic talker/nagotiator will not beat a bullet. Of course it wont happen all the time, but when it does happen, it would be great to know that we can trust our LEO 100% of the time. Most of the time I do trust our LEO but with recent events happening, it does make one think.

If a gun is a tool for Police officers, I think they should know how to use the tool. Whats the use of having a engine stand when you dont fix engines right?
OP, yeah you may shoot better than your LE buddy when standing in a controled enviornment and shooting at paper targets. Try keeping your 3 MOA grouping while shooting crouched, from behind cover, at night, while the target is shooting back at you. I gurantee the grouping will be non-existent.


I did, wait, more like forced to. My grouping was in exsistance. :D

[DRM6000]

7" at 25 yds is acceptable. those would all be hits to the thorasic. but, in a stressful situation, that group could double.

shooting to stop a threat is not the same as bullseye target shooting.

[tyrist]

He still has acceptable combat accuracy...9/10 ring hits are all that matters and groupings are even less important in a gun fight. When the target is moving 25 yards away its going to be much harder to land hits anyway.

[trinydex]

7 moa at 25 yards is 28" right? that's pretty piss poor.

7 moa at 100 yards is 7"

double that for 50 yards and you get 14"

double that again for 25 yards and you get 28"

[lawaia]

7 moa at 25 yards is 28" right? that's pretty piss poor.

7 moa at 100 yards is 7"

double that for 50 yards and you get 14"

double that again for 25 yards and you get 28"

I believe 7 MOA at 25 yards would be 1.75". 7 MOA at 400 yards would be 28". 7 MOA @ 100 yards is 7". Maybe a distance shooter here can chime in on this.

[Bobula]

Where I used to work we qualified 4 times a year. When I go to the range or I am shooting personal guns it's more of a stress relief then proper shooting. You never know till shtf how you'll react, but the few times it has it's all muscle memory. The nasty situation I've been in where at proper responses to training. One time I couldn't remember pulling my gun, it was just magically in my hand, as it should have been.

[trinydex]

I believe 7 MOA at 25 yards would be 1.75". 7 MOA at 400 yards would be 28". 7 MOA @ 100 yards is 7". Maybe a distance shooter here can chime in on this.

uhh... 7 moa is a horrible group at 100 yards... how would it get BETTER as you get closer? it should only get progressively more embarassingly horrible.

[DRM6000]

uhh... 7 moa is a horrible group at 100 yards... how would it get BETTER as you get closer? it should only get progressively more embarassingly horrible.


the grouping would get tighter at closer distances. think of a conical pattern. it widens at longer distances.

[trinydex]

ah you're right i'm thinking backwards

[Natty Bumppo]

A 7 MOA group, fired offhand, at 25 yards is a 1.75" group. I don't believe I've ever shot that well.

A 3 MOA group at the same 25 yards means all rounds impacted within a
0.75" circle. No round was more than 0.375" from the point of aim. I could not even aspire to such accuracy.

Cordially,
Natty

[kato4moto]

A 7 MOA group, fired offhand, at 25 yards is a 1.75" group. I don't believe I've ever shot that well.

A 3 MOA group at the same 25 yards means all rounds impacted within a
0.75" circle. No round was more than 0.375" from the point of aim. I could not even aspire to such accuracy.

Cordially,
Natty

Agreed. If you can do that with a handgun, you belong on an Olympic shooting team and should be shooting for a living!

[Bryan16]

Quite a few people in my academy were scared to even fire a weapon. Some just barely passed the qualification. Just because we completed the academy doesn't mean we become marksmen. It will get you qualified quarterly but if you want to become better you have to practice as you all know.

[Bryan16]

You never know till shtf how you'll react, but the few times it has it's all muscle memory.

That's how I was trained as well. Practice enough so it becomes muscle memory.

[Dirtbiker]

Being able to use your pistol under stress is the key. Take a look at most officer involved shooting in the US. Bad guy usually hit or dead, officer usually not hit or dead.

When I was a LEO being in excellent physical condition is FAR more important than being an extra good shot. Get in one fight with a suspect and you will understand where I'm coming from.

[mif_slim]

Agreed. If you can do that with a handgun, you belong on an Olympic shooting team and should be shooting for a living!

I think if you guys read the entire thing I corrected myself by saying its a 7" group not MOA. :)

[sgtbuck]

To pass a qual at my department you could not have a miss off the suspect target. All rounds had to be on the suspect. Any misses caused you to fail. So you do not have to be perfect you just have to account for every round you shoot and hit the suspect that is on the target. From what you stated 7" at 25 yds is not to bad. Again I will say it's a whole lot differnt when somone is shooting back at you. These men and woman are not superman. Most are avarage everyday people that do a thankless job that most people would never do. There are good ones and bad ones and those that can shoot really good and those that can't. It's funny because you always hear about the Cop that messed up or the Cop that did somthing wrong. I guess it makes good news, but you never hear that on last nights grave yard shift two burglary supects were caught, five DV supects were stopped from beating there wifes or husbands, three drunk drivers were taken off the road, two gang members were disarmed and put in jail and a lost kid was found. and thats not including the reg patrol stuff. That is seven Officers in one 10 hour shift and that was a slow shift. You can double that on the weekend. Most every Officer I know would put themselfs in the line of fire to protect you or anyone one else from danger whether they are a good shot or not and not even stop to ask you if you trust them 100% or not they just do it. Most people run away from danger. Police Officers run towards it again even if there not the best shot. I have seen Officers put themselfs in harms way to protect even the hard core gang banger or street person.

I have never run into a Officer that did not know crap about shooting as you put it. They might not be an expert shot but they can handle there guns and tools.

Also your a great friend to your buddy to be writing neg stuff about his shooting capabilities.

Could we all stand for more range time, yes we could but with all the bugets being cut I do not see that happing.

You stated "Most of the time I do trust our LEO but with recent events happening, it does make one think." Nothing like jumping on the band wagon with a few negative issues that have been put into the news. Have you ever noticed how one side the network news reports stuff like this. Kinda like how they report gun issues and every gun is an evil assult weapon.
I saw a video a few years ago of an Officer punching a handcuffed suspect in the face while next to his Police car. Everyone wanted the Officer to be fired and put in jail. The video really did look bad for the Officer. What that video did not show was the suspect had the Officer by the balls and was twisting and pulling. The news never reported that part.

One last thing run a 440 at a full sprint then do as many pull up as you can, then jump a six foot wall all with out stopping to rest, then shoot for qual and see how well you do? This was an actual test my department put us through before I retired.

[Bobula]

I think if you guys read the entire thing I corrected myself by saying its a 7" group not MOA. :)

Still says MOA, and 7" grouping @ 25 yards is respectable. Typically at that distance you wouldn't be engaging with a handgun, if at all possible.

[grammaton76]

You've probably touched on the core of the problem. I'm convinced there are just TOO MANY hours of "getting cats out of trees" training at the Police Academy!!;)

Combine the two. In order to get the cat out of the tree, you must first be able to hit the cat. :)

[mif_slim]

Still says MOA, and 7" grouping @ 25 yards is respectable. Typically at that distance you wouldn't be engaging with a handgun, if at all possible.

lol

here post #4:

that is my bad, its 7" groups at 25 yards. a 7" group at 25 yards is good, when he's calm and firing, but Im sure that group will open up under stress and pressure, maybe to 14" who knows...


One last thing run a 440 at a full sprint then do as many pull up as you can, then jump a six foot wall all with out stopping to rest, then shoot for qual and see how well you do? This was an actual test my department put us through before I retired.


Did something similar to that when I was training with the Treasury Dept. :) It was fun. Oh, and I shot well too. 2nd in the class of 12.

What sucks is that they put you through that then you retired. :( :P jk. :D

[sgtbuck]

Everybody retires sooner or later, I felt I had done my time and went on to somthing different. We had to qual every four months. Every session our range masters used to do all kinds of weired stuff like that. One time I was doing a live fire room clearing and the suspet dummy had a leather jacket with a gun pointing towards the door and a ballon in the jacket tied to a string. When I shot it the ballon poped and the dummy suspect fell to the ground. Scared the crap out of me. I thought I broke there training device. Most Officer involved shooting take place withing 10 feet or less. At least that what I was told and that is what happend to me. It was more point and shoot and all automatic no time to really think or aim. It was all about training. #1 rule go home at the end of your shift.


lol

here post #4:





Did something similar to that when I was training with the Treasury Dept. :) It was fun. Oh, and I shot well too. 2nd in the class of 12.

What sucks is that they put you through that then you retired. :( :P jk. :D

[mif_slim]

Yeah, thats what sucks, no one can ever escape time...alot of our training was 3 yards to 7 yards too, like you said, most engagements occur within that distance. We had a guy come train with us because he had a gun fight in the middle of a parking lot and they were about ~8 feet away from eachother...he said all his 11 shot missed.

[sgtbuck]

Yeah, thats what sucks, no one can ever escape time...alot of our training was 3 yards to 7 yards too, like you said, most engagements occur within that distance. We had a guy come train with us because he had a gun fight in the middle of a parking lot and they were about ~8 feet away from eachother...he said all his 11 shot missed.

Yep the same thing happened at my Department to a couple of Officers. The mind plays funny tricks on you when your in a life or death type of situation. I used to teach the Officer survival class at the academy back in the early 90s. If you want to really get into what happens when a Officer or Military person gets involved in a life or death situation there is a book by Col. Grossman called on killing. When my son got back from Iraq I got it for him to help with some of the side effects of taking another human life. I had been to one of his lectures and read the book myself. Its a very eye opening read.

[El Gato]

I am one of the range staff at our department (130 armed probation officers) - I wear my vest while on the range.. in the summer... in bakersfield... some officers are excellent shooters and can handle crisis well.. it shows up in other things besides shootings.. just fights or radio traffic... others not so much... I wear a vest on the range in bakersfield in the summer... enough said?

Ok maybe not... the previous post about some officers not taking the gun seriously +1 on that....some are simply afraid of the gun and of people... one of our female officers drew down on a guy the other day cause he was standing in front of her and was attempting to run past her.. she was afraid he was going to hit her so she was going to shoot him... calmer heads prevailed... it can be very ugly out there...:eek:

[1859sharps]

If all you have to offer is gun "skills", you don't belong in Law Enforcement. It takes more then just being good with a gun to be a LEO. I know I am personally less concerned about a LEO's gun skills and more about their attitude, beliefs, ethics, character, intelligence ... list goes on.

Now, the ideal is to have someone good with weapons as well as other skills and traits that make a good LEO, but that is not always possible. But I agree, it does seem the minimum standard for shooting skills is a bit on the low side.

[bluestaterebel]

Mif Slim,

It sounds like you are a good shot, a natural. you are comparing yourself with someone whos average at best. in the title you say he needs help. did you help him?


are you in the treasury dept? are you a LEO? if not, we can sure use a good shot like yourself.why dont you join?

[8200rpm]

We had a guy come train with us because he had a gun fight in the middle of a parking lot and they were about ~8 feet away from eachother...he said all his 11 shot missed.

I'm sure if the bad guy was hanging stationary off a target holder like a paper target, he would have shot him a few times.

I think all bets are off when your target is moving, shooting at you, and you're moving for cover and returning fire.

You make it sound so easy. If you can shoot a 3" group offhand at 75 feet, that's pretty damned good. The front post on most handguns probably covers almost a foot of target at that distance.

[mif_slim]

yes i helped him, taught him the death grip and the loose grip. i can shoot better with loose grip but i train death grip because i think my muscle will remember that more in a shtf. me and a guy at the range can hit a 17in dinger at 176 yards all day, him a ruger 45 and me my xd40....well, few misses but you can say almost all day. once you dail it in its simple...i think thats why i sometimes dont get how some people cant shoot well, but again my father taught me how to shoot when i was 4.

[blackfalcon]

Seems like LEO training is going away from the bullseye paper target shooting and emphasizing more tactical shooting, speed and shoot on the move type of thing.

[Hamster16]

i wish i had friends like you that would bash me on a public forum. maybe he does need more training but why talk a bunch of crap about a guy that you call your friend. not to mention that it seems that you are trying to make your self look good. if you were really concerned about an officer in need of more training why is your accuracy even relevant. sorry if i sound like a jerk but i wonder how your friend would feel if he read this post.

[jamesob]

7" in 25 yards isn't bad considering that when i was a leo we had range about 2 times a year. range consisted of qualifying after or right before work and on avarage shooting 100 rounds. if your patrol you don't hit the range as often as entry teams do wich is a few times a month and several hundreds of rounds if not thousands. the fact is they do need more range time but its hard to squeeze the time in for patrol guys.

[BamBam-31]

i wish i had friends like you that would bash me on a public forum. maybe he does need more training but why talk a bunch of crap about a guy that you call your friend. not to mention that it seems that you are trying to make your self look good. if you were really concerned about an officer in need of more training why is your accuracy even relevant. sorry if i sound like a jerk but i wonder how your friend would feel if he read this post.


Bingo.

[mif_slim]

haha, bashing? nah, we go at it with eachother all the time. he beats me in auto racing i beat him in shooting. thats it. we're almost like brothers and it doesnt matter what we say about each other, we have been through too much to take this as a bash.

[BamBam-31]

As mentioned, 7" groups at 25 yds. offhand with a handgun is not bad at all. May not be an Alpha, but for damn sure it's still a Charlie. If you truly can shoot 3" groups at 25 yds. offhand, and you can hit gongs at 170+ yds. "all day," then you should also know that you're in a rather small minority when it comes to handgun accuracy. To declare that your LEO buddy needs help "BIG TIME" because he doesn't meet the accuracy standards you say only you and one other guy have achieved is really only drawing attention to yourself, and at the expense of your "buddy." If you want to brag, go ahead and brag. I just don't understand why you need to publically question your friend's professional competence to do it.

[Maddog5150]

As mentioned, 7" groups at 25 yds. offhand with a handgun is not bad at all. May not be an Alpha, but for damn sure it's still a Charlie. If you truly can shoot 3" groups at 25 yds. offhand, and you can hit gongs at 170+ yds. "all day," then you should also know that you're in a rather small minority when it comes to handgun accuracy. To declare that your LEO buddy needs help "BIG TIME" because he doesn't meet the accuracy standards you say only you and one other guy have achieved is really only drawing attention to yourself, and at the expense of your "buddy." If you want to brag, go ahead and brag. I just don't understand why you need to publically question your friend's professional competence to do it.

+1
I was thinking the same thing throughout the thread. Seems like the thread is more for someone to pat themselves on the back.

[TRICKSTER]

What have I learned from this thread? I have learned that the O/P knows nothing about what it takes to be a LEO or what they do on a daily basis.
LEO's protect people every day without firing their weapon, yet the O/P seems to think that shooting skills are the most important skill that a LEO needs.
This is what happens when people watch too much TV.
The O/P needs some serious training on the subject.

[sgtbuck]

What have I learned from this thread? I have learned that the O/P knows nothing about what it takes to be a LEO or what they do on a daily basis.
LEO's protect people every day without firing their weapon, yet the O/P seems to think that shooting skills are the most important skill that a LEO needs.
This is what happens when people watch too much TV.
The O/P needs some serious training on the subject.

That's what it is to much TJ Hooker. I love how TJ could throw a PR24 30 feet and knock the suspect down.

When I was in China the local Police called me John Wayne because all they had seen was old western John Wayne movies and thought that is how it really is here. When I told them how it really was they could not belive that Officers here patrol by themselfs plus many other things we do here. They patrol with minivans with at least four Officers at a time somtimes more. They kinda reminded me of the keystone cops in how they work but they were good people and treated me with alot of respect.

[grammaton76]

As mentioned, 7" groups at 25 yds. offhand with a handgun is not bad at all. May not be an Alpha, but for damn sure it's still a Charlie.

Curious... there are criteria/standards for evaluating LEO shooting proficiency?

If so, please share. I've always been curious about things, as I dream of eventually having a "shooters' yardstick" so that it's possible for folks to tell whether they're above or below average, etc.

I know one guy (non LEO) who thinks he's an awesome shot because when he stands 7' away from a soda can, he can hit it once or twice out of a fully loaded 1911 mag...

[jamesob]

Curious... there are criteria/standards for evaluating LEO shooting proficiency?

If so, please share. I've always been curious about things, as I dream of eventually having a "shooters' yardstick" so that it's possible for folks to tell whether they're above or below average, etc.

I know one guy (non LEO) who thinks he's an awesome shot because when he stands 7' away from a soda can, he can hit it once or twice out of a fully loaded 1911 mag...
it goes by a percentage. sometimes you may throw 50 rounds down range and 80 percent or higher has to be in the bottle, in other words in the vitals.

[tyrist]

Curious... there are criteria/standards for evaluating LEO shooting proficiency?

If so, please share. I've always been curious about things, as I dream of eventually having a "shooters' yardstick" so that it's possible for folks to tell whether they're above or below average, etc.

I know one guy (non LEO) who thinks he's an awesome shot because when he stands 7' away from a soda can, he can hit it once or twice out of a fully loaded 1911 mag...

you fire 30 rounds at distances from 7 yards-25 yards
you fire in intervals from 1.5-7seconds
you need a combat score of 90 on each of two targets to qualify.
body hits are worth 10 points..limbs are worth 5...you must attempt 4 head shots but they need not actually hit the head.
If you have a malfunction you must clear it and resume firing (you are given additional time).
Listing all phases would take a long time so I have'nt.

[jamesob]

you fire 30 rounds at distances from 7 yards-25 yards
you fire in intervals from 1.5-7seconds
you need a combat score of 90 on each of two targets to qualify.
body hits are worth 10 points..limbs are worth 5...you must attempt 4 head shots but they need not actually hit the head.
If you have a malfunction you must clear it and resume firing (you are given additional time).
Listing all phases would take a long time so I have'nt.
we went by a totally different system than that. if we hit arms or outside the bottle, it was a no hit.

[wildog8812]

then in Fresno two officer beats up a homeless guy

I am not saying you do not know what you are talking about, but if you don't know all the facts don't criticize the officers in question. In the Fresno case the homeless guy had a felony warrant out for assault on a police officer and you did not get to see the whole incident on the news. I had the privilege of hearing all the facts that lead up to what you saw on the 15 second news clip. It was not excessive force in my opinion or according to CA POST regulations, then the great news media made it look as if the officers harass the homeless people in Fresno.

I am not saying that LEO's don't do anything wrong, but in order to criticize them at least know all the facts.

[BamBam-31]

you fire 30 rounds at distances from 7 yards-25 yards
you fire in intervals from 1.5-7seconds
you need a combat score of 90 on each of two targets to qualify.
body hits are worth 10 points..limbs are worth 5...you must attempt 4 head shots but they need not actually hit the head.
If you have a malfunction you must clear it and resume firing (you are given additional time).
Listing all phases would take a long time so I have'nt.



IOW, the OP's LEO buddy would be getting COM/body/bottle hits at 25 yds. consistently, so he'd qualify with ease.

The 7-25 yd. course sounds a lot like the pistol quals my in-laws w/ Homeland Security have to do, w/ some slight variations (number of shots, time limits, reloads, etc.). Admittedly, LEO quals don't really set a high bar in terms of accuracy....

[Hamster16]

another thing a buddy of mine who is a leo said that is paramount, is ammo management. i dont know if this is true but i would imagine so since he is in the academy right now and that is if your slide ever locks open you automatically fail. he said you have to know when its your last round and reload before your out on top of accuracy and everything else.

[Maddog5150]

To tell you the truth. I would love to see this 25 yard / 75 feet, three inch group from an offhand from the OP in person. I wouldnt trust interwebs pics because someone could just shoot at five feet and claim its seventy five.

[Doheny]

Very few gunfights take place at 25 yrds. Besides, paper targets seldom shoot back.

I'd put my money on your buddy when things get sideways.

[tyrist]

IOW, the OP's LEO buddy would be getting COM/body/bottle hits at 25 yds. consistently, so he'd qualify with ease.

The 7-25 yd. course sounds a lot like the pistol quals my in-laws w/ Homeland Security have to do, w/ some slight variations (number of shots, time limits, reloads, etc.). Admittedly, LEO quals don't really set a high bar in terms of accuracy....

We do one in battery speed reload...one out of battery speed reload..and four tactical reloads as well during the course of fire.

When you think in terms of gun fighting every good body hit has a chance to hit vitals...you don't need tight groupings...you just need hits. The more hits the greater the chance the threat ends.

[TheBundo]

What have I learned from this thread? I have learned that the O/P knows nothing about what it takes to be a LEO or what they do on a daily basis.
LEO's protect people every day without firing their weapon, yet the O/P seems to think that shooting skills are the most important skill that a LEO needs.
This is what happens when people watch too much TV.
The O/P needs some serious training on the subject.

I agree. Maybe he needs to watch different TV shows, like Colombo (who always dreaded having to qualify at the range) or Monk. The police need brain-power way more than gun-power in the normal course of things, as well as the proper personality traits that don't rile up the citizenry, while still reaching the goal of the encounter. I probably should go on a ride-a-long, something I've long wanted to do.

[Warhawk014]

To tell you the truth. I would love to see this 25 yard / 75 feet, three inch group from an offhand from the OP in person. I wouldnt trust interwebs pics because someone could just shoot at five feet and claim its seventy five.

yeah O/P should post vid of said skills. or it didnt happen.

like most of the posts have said. you need more communication skils than anything else if you are a leo. and with firearms, you need to demonstrate proficiency with department issued weapons. they are not looking for expert marksmans but someone who can manipulte a weapon. as far as the bashing goes. sound like the friend does a good job shooting. 7 inch groups at 25 yards. thats all COM. and in law enforcement making hits is what counts. not tearing ragged holes. being an expert shot is not going to get you extra points. in fact it may get you fired. and in a whole lot of trouble.

for instance if your department trains you to shoot to stop the threat by aiming for COM. and instead you go for a single head shot. questions will be raised as to why the suspect was shot in the head and not COM like you were trained. then the investigation can lead to other things. who trained you to shoot for the head. is this training department authorized, is it normal operating procedure to go for a single shot to the head. its a nightmare.

and one last thing. to the OP. unless you are LEO with his agency you probably dont know what their use of force policy is. so saying that he needs HELP BIG TIME, is an insult to your friend. you brag about how accurate you are with your pistol. i challenge you to join a leo agency. and when the time comes and you have to use deadly force, you can use your skills to HANDLE it. and see if you dont get yourself into some pretty hot water for being such an expert.

i had an expert at the academy with me. and on qualifying day instead of shooting the directed course of fire as instructed to do so by the range instructors. he proceded to put the last 4 shots from his firearm into the targets head. this expert was booted out of the academy before we were even done with lunch.

[trinydex]

i've seen such a group before... in fact it was smaller... 7 shots (1911) in a 2" group, maybe half of them in one hole.

this guy was amazing. asian dude that shoots at usi. he had his own hand loads and he was picking up his brass right after he shot it. one shot every few minutes, off hand, ONE HANDED!

i was so sad standing next to him... so sad.

p.s. this sighting has nothing to do with law enforcement etc. just marveling at how some people with old eyes and a lot of skill can do miraculous things with a colt 1911

[retired]

My buddy watches the range (a trailer) and says alot of the LE guys really cant shoot well...or really dont care to shoot well. Some cant qualify and they have to come back later.

The LASD guys qual 2 times a year which imo isnt enough. If they were looking for someone to help out Id be all over it...just pay me in ammo.

Just out of curiosity, where did you hear LASD only qualify twice a year. Unless things have changed in the 6yrs. since I've retired (which, of course, could have happened), it is 4 times a year. Also, if one works patrol or a detective unit, one of those times is an all day shoot at the PPC course at the jail out by Magic Mtn. They also shoot trap and shotgun on the PPC, plus Hogan's Alley.

Now, I agree 4 times a year is not sufficient and some probably only do that. I did not and I know others also practiced.

[TheBundo]

I hope LEO's never shoot at things, in real life, 170 yards away with their pistols.

[Decoligny]

You've probably touched on the core of the problem. I'm convinced there are just TOO MANY hours of "getting cats out of trees" training at the Police Academy!!;)

If he can do a 7" grouping at 25 yards, then he shouldn't have any trouble getting a cat out of a tree at maybe 5 yards? Cats are usually bigger than 7" so center of mass should be easy at that range. :D

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

They wouldn't let us get cats out of the tree that way. Had to call Animal Control. :( As a friend's bumper sticker said... "So many cats - so few recipes!" :devil2:

Seriously, not all cops are gun enthusiasts. My former agency requires 6 qualifications per year/2 per trimester - you should see the mad scramble at the end of each period when the administration publishes the qual list and threatens to take action against anyone who doesn't have the requisite number of quals.

BTW, for the OP, a 7" group at 25 yards would be quite acceptable if centered around the center of mass of the target. Combat shooting isn't bullseye competition. That's much better than "minute of bad guy".