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showerbabies
03-18-2009, 5:42 PM
I'll be picking up a home soon in Hayward. TBD since the bank is dragging their feet.

I would like to re/wire up a 1950, 1400sq, one-story house with phone, audio, LAN and tv in every room. I'm not sure how security will work in this picture, but I'll probably be piecing that together depending on our budget.

Price? Time needed?

Turbinator
03-20-2009, 7:42 AM
Were you looking to tear out walls and redo everything? Sorry, I can't help, but I'm just curious.

Turby

Mayhem
05-10-2009, 4:26 AM
He's probably looking at wall fishing. inside walls he's looking at 100-150 a jack and outside walls (firebreaks) about 150-250, probably an extra 10-25 per line type per jack.

If you got a buddy thats a cable jockey buy him allot of beer and get him to crawl the attic/crawl space. the hardest part of this is fishing the walls.

One word of advice centralize everything to a cool location like a closet near the middle of your house. Use wire frame shelfing (allows for better cooling of network gear)

Run power to the closet and install an outlet . Then run Cable, and Phone from the IMPEO/POE (were phone and cable come into your house) to the closet.

Put your cable splitters on a board in the closet also put in a 66 punch down block or bigger for phone and a cat5e or cat 6 rated patch panel. Put your networking equipment in (cable/DSL Modem, Router/Firewall, Gigabit switch). Run cat 3 cable (for phone) rg56 cable (for TV) and cat5e or cat 6 cable out for networking to all the required jacks.

Put a good 1500 VA+ (If you have a server) or 350va UPS (if no server or PC) and your other networking equipment like NAS and a home server on wire frame shelfs.

You can also get either a stand alone DVR Security system or install a special DVR card on a PC and use it for video security )PC is the bedt choice).This is far better then network cams which are harder, wireless network cams suck to much wireless bandwidth and are a nightmare to set up, and and wireless (non-network) cams are way to unsecure. regular webcams take allot of fooling with to use them for security. I have them all.

If you go with a PCI DVR card get at least an 8 channel.

You'll love the managers face at pool company when you show them the DVD you made of their pool tech taking a leak in your pool when you wasn't home.

http://www.raidentech.com/dvrcards.html
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/survey.hmx?
Also a few last thing

Run all your cables at the same time use multi jack or modular plates.
mark every jack and each end of every cable so you know what goes were.
consider putting 2 small (but very very durable) fans in the closet and a vent near the bottom of the closet door for air circulation.
You can get really creative with PVC pipe(s) to run cables cleanly threw the ceiling of your closet.

If your getting an alarm system keep that in mind because the alarm unit is probably going into the same closet. Make sure they put the battery back up there to. You will already have phone data and power which shortens runs for the alarm system and better protects it from tampering.

6172crew
05-10-2009, 8:44 AM
Or buy U-Verse and let the ATT tech do it for you.:thumbsup:

reggie 00
05-10-2009, 10:30 AM
Or buy U-Verse and let the ATT tech do it for you.:thumbsup:

They cant fish walls. Its a liability issue.


guess about 1hr per wall fish.


You can get structured panels that will house all you needs, cable splitters,phone distribution,networking. Panel depending on what you get inside could run 100-400.

cat 5 is probably close to 130 a box,rg6 100.
Audio you'll run 12/4 from you receiver location to your volume controls, 14/2 from your VC to your speakers in the room.


don't bother running cat3, cat5 is generally the same cost and you get more flexibility with it.
Rg56 is a no go especially if your going to want to use Satellite, they need RG6 sweep to 3ghz.

Its been awhile since i ran up a bid, i closed my company last year when my lil Brother went in to the CHP and i scored a good job in Oakland.

If you need i can probably look up material costs, but labor is going to be according to area and company.

Mayhem
05-10-2009, 11:55 AM
Reggie I think your confusing rg56 (AKA rg6) with RG59, rg56 is often called rg6 to keep you from confusing it with rg59 wich is crap. I think what has happened is rg59 and very old crappy rg56 has a lower ohm rating then then rg56/6 is today. modern rg56and rg6 are the same thing. I've seen allot of cable jocks make this mistake. what they are suppose to do is inspect the dielectric core if its white and soft its good to go if its clear and hard its got to go there also suppose to inspect the shielding (single dual quad and stadard vs hard shield) and the splitters. Unfortunately most cable companies use contractors that get paid by the job and are poorly trained.

Edit a friend of mine that works as an engineer for Comcast formerly AT&T Formerly TCI informed me that rg56 is rg 6 and that rg6 is actually the correct term for rg56.

http://www.accesscomms.com.au/Reference/coax.htm

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/3314

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/3314

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable (note their is no mention of 56)

http://www7.taosnet.com/ebear/coaxlist.html Rg56u is listed as having an outside diameter of over half an inch (making it larger then a rg11) is a special twisted pulse cable used inside the cable network node not your home.

Cat 5 is overkill for phone, there is no line quality advantage using cat5 for phone over cat3 (proven with a sunrise and sidekick) , the only thing cat5 has going for it, is 4 pairs vs 3 pairs that some cat 3 cables use. Cat 3 is also cheaper then cat5e, and allot cheaper then cat6. cat 3 tends to be lighter and more flexible making it slightly easier to work with specially when it comes down to punch down blocks.

Cat 6 can actually cause problems for DSL FAX and Data (old dial up modems). .

Reserve Cat5e and cat6 for Networking. Do not use standard cat 5 i've seen some issues with it slowing down gigabit ethernet.

one nice thing about working support for telecoms/cable companies I got all my cable for free. one nifty cable type I have is Siamese rg56 cat3 dual cable. you can run your phone and TV with one cable. It can be hard to find but it can be worth it depending on the price.

cat 3 is usually 3 or sometimes 4 pair of cables each pair has 3 twist per inch.

cat5 4 pair of wires each pair is twisted 5 times per inch slightly thicker wire then cat 3

cat5e enhanced same as cat 5 but with higher quality and thicker wire.

cat6 more twist then 5 and I thiink it uses a special mesh in the wire to help with the flow of electrons threw the wire.

utp = unshielded twisted pair.

stp = shielded twisted pair has an aluminum foil wrap and some bare wires between the individually jacket wire pairs and the outer jacket to reduce EMF interference.

Tv uses Coax cable which also comes in different types

rg11 very heavy cable used only in long drops - avoid.

rg6/rg56 standard TV cable.

rg59 a very thin TV cable - avoid like the plague.

quad shield - a heavily shielded coax cable - the coax version of STP networking cable. usually labeled as rg6uq/rg56uq.

another note make sure your TV cable splitters are rated at least 5 to 1000 mhz (or 5mhz to 1ghz) keep in mind every time you split the line it cost you 3.5db in signal loss. so a 2 way is -3.5bd per line, a 3way is 2 -7db and 1 -3 db, a 4 way is 4 -7 db and an 8 way cost you -14db per line. make sure you cable is grounded at the point of entry. avoid the gold plated crap it doesn't do anything special and I've seen it cost some signal loss and line quality over something like a standard commercial grade regal splitter.

If your looking for quality runs consider using rg6q cat3utp cat6stp or Siamese rg6q/cat3 and cat6stp.

reggie 00
05-10-2009, 8:13 PM
Cat3 isn't cheaper than Cat5e

http://doitbest.com/Telephone+jacks-Woods+Ind.-model-96203-46-09-doitbest-sku-509590.dib

http://doitbest.com/Telephone+jacks-Woods+Ind.-model-96263-46-06-doitbest-sku-558370.dib

Pulled from the same site for price consistantcy.

Your right cat3 is usually 3 pair, why limit your self to 3 phone lines? especially for 10 bucks?

What happens if you want to turn it into a data jack instead later?

Cat 6 has not benefit right now. Cat5e can do it all.

"Category 5e - "Enhanced Cat 5" exceeds Cat 5 performance. Very similar to Cat 5, it has improved specifications for NEXT (Near End Cross Talk), PSELFEXT (Power Sum Equal Level Far End Cross Talk), and Attenuation. May be used for 10Base-T, 100Base-T4, 100Base-T2, 100BaseTX and 1000Base-T Ethernet. (Minimum acceptable wiring grade)

Category 6 - In June 2002 TIA approved specification for Cat 6 doubling Cat 5 bandwidth to 250 MHz. Cat 6 is backward compatible with lower Category grades and supports the same Ethernet standards as Cat 5e. A Cat 6 whitepaper is available from TIA.

Currently there are no Ethernet standards that take advantage of Cat 6. ANSI/TIA854 is working on 1000Base-TX. When complete this standard will use two pair in each direction as opposed to all four for 1000Base-T over Cat 5e. This is expected to reduce the cost of Gigabit Ethernet implementations. 1000Base-TX will only operate over Cat6."

yep i confused the two coax cables

59 is used in CCTV, so don't throw it out just yet.

Siamese cables are nice, but often more expensive than buying them separate and putting them together your self.

there is not size difference between cat 3 and cat5e, they are both 24g, and the one pair difference in size is not noticed.

The OP is in the Bay area, PM me when you are ready and I'll try to make sometime to come out and get you started.

Like i mentioned i owned my own company doing this. We had are C7 licence
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInformation/Library/LicensingClassifications/C-7LowVoltageSystems.asp

I have wired many houses and commercial buildings. Some all by myself.
I finally worked my way out of the field and spent the last 2years we were open driving a desk and doing field programming work. So unfortunately no amount of Beer will get me back in the attic, sorry.

Let me know and I'll get you started in the right direction and help you get things laid out, hopefully be able to point out things to look for things to keep in mind for the future, like digital controls for the audio.

DocSkinner
05-10-2009, 8:19 PM
Don't screw with cat 5 - just go CAT 6 - by the time you finish this it will be outdated. Cat 5 is fine for slower ethernet - but most stuff coming out now runs Gigb Ethernet - so cat 6. Not much more money: time (=cost) is in installation, pay for the best available.

and don't forget there are a lot of wireless option aw well for tricky spots.

I have some friends that were great IT types at my last job (they were great - my boss (not in IT) wasn't...) PM me if you are interested and I can contact them I know at least one of them at the time was doing some side work for home type stuff - wiring, small home servers, etc.

DocSkinner
05-10-2009, 8:24 PM
Cat3 isn't cheaper than Cat5e

http://doitbest.com/Telephone+jacks-Woods+Ind.-model-96203-46-09-doitbest-sku-509590.dib

http://doitbest.com/Telephone+jacks-Woods+Ind.-model-96263-46-06-doitbest-sku-558370.dib

Pulled from the same site for price consistantcy.

Your right cat3 is usually 3 pair, why limit your self to 3 phone lines? especially for 10 bucks?

What happens if you want to turn it into a data jack instead later?

Cat 6 has not benefit right now. Cat5e can do it all.

"Category 5e - "Enhanced Cat 5" exceeds Cat 5 performance. Very similar to Cat 5, it has improved specifications for NEXT (Near End Cross Talk), PSELFEXT (Power Sum Equal Level Far End Cross Talk), and Attenuation. May be used for 10Base-T, 100Base-T4, 100Base-T2, 100BaseTX and 1000Base-T Ethernet. (Minimum acceptable wiring grade)

Category 6 - In June 2002 TIA approved specification for Cat 6 doubling Cat 5 bandwidth to 250 MHz. Cat 6 is backward compatible with lower Category grades and supports the same Ethernet standards as Cat 5e. A Cat 6 whitepaper is available from TIA.

Currently there are no Ethernet standards that take advantage of Cat 6. ANSI/TIA854 is working on 1000Base-TX. When complete this standard will use two pair in each direction as opposed to all four for 1000Base-T over Cat 5e. This is expected to reduce the cost of Gigabit Ethernet implementations. 1000Base-TX will only operate over Cat6."

yep i confused the two coax cables

59 is used in CCTV, so don't throw it out just yet.

Siamese cables are nice, but often more expensive than buying them separate and putting them together your self.

there is not size difference between cat 3 and cat5e, they are both 24g, and the one pair difference in size is not noticed.

The OP is in the Bay area, PM me when you are ready and I'll try to make sometime to come out and get you started.

Like i mentioned i owned my own company doing this. We had are C7 licence
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/GeneralInformation/Library/LicensingClassifications/C-7LowVoltageSystems.asp

I have wired many houses and commercial buildings. Some all by myself.
I finally worked my way out of the field and spent the last 2years we were open driving a desk and doing field programming work. So unfortunately no amount of Beer will get me back in the attic, sorry.

Let me know and I'll get you started in the right direction and help you get things laid out, hopefully be able to point out things to look for things to keep in mind for the future, like digital controls for the audio.

If its your own company, you should know most motherboards now ship with gigabit Ether on board, so cat 6 is worth it. Everything moves forward - building something that is adequate for today is to slow next year.
wait - do you work for the government? ;-)

Not trying to yank yer chain - but wiring in a house is hard to redo - not like running new cables in a prepped suspended ceiling office setting that is easy to redo. when it is in ceiling and behind drywall run fastest available, as it will be there for a while!

reggie 00
05-10-2009, 8:54 PM
Cat6 is going to run you around 120+ a box. Plus the cost of equipment to run your new TX based network. That isn't really all that prevalent now is it, unless your sitting over at Cisco.

wireless is cool but its not Gigabit.

Cat 5e will do GIGABIT, hence the 1000base-T
Unless he is doing some super crazy work from home I'm thinking the cat5e wiring will do him and his family for a long time.

And it was mine, if you want I'll show you the Corporation dissolution papers i got in the mail the other day from the Secretary of the state.

And if its planned right it wont be a big deal. It got there in the first place right.

Mayhem
05-12-2009, 12:51 AM
half the computers in my house are 1000bt

Most systems and most motherboards now come with a 1gb network adapter built in. and allot of high end systems and motherboards come with 2 1000bt full duplexing network adapters built in.

cat5 gives me about 350-500 mb/s
cat5e gives me about 750-850
cat6 gives me about 800-850

for the record I have cat3 that gives me about 200-250 mb/s

this was all using a network bandwidth meter while transferring a 1.4gb movie file from one PC to another directly (crossover) static IP no firewall or anti-virus. cables where 75 feet. bandwith max was around 850mb/s and may be due to other limitations other then the cables used.

even teaming dual adapters we only got about 1500-1600mb/s that was using 2 computers with dual adapters (Intel) a gigabit switch (unmanaged) and 4 20 foot cat5e and 4 cat 6 cables.

If you can get cat5e for no more then 30 bucks / 1000 / box over cat3 then just use cat5e for every thing. Don't use cat5.

If you measure out the runs theres a good chance one box will feed the need for phone and network. and as some one stated above you can always change a phone jack to a networking jack if the phone isn't needed.

Your best bet is to use shielded since your going to be running Phone Networking and CCTV all next to each other (Thats allot of EMRFI).

DO NOT USE CAT6 for anything other then networking. Trust me on this one it causes problems with Fax Data (Modem) and DSL.

Cat6 will be more future proof then cat5e but cat5e works well for todays gear.

Shop around and compare prices.

DocSkinner
05-12-2009, 10:02 AM
Cat6 is going to run you around 120+ a box. Plus the cost of equipment to run your new TX based network. That isn't really all that prevalent now is it, unless your sitting over at Cisco.

wireless is cool but its not Gigabit.

Cat 5e will do GIGABIT, hence the 1000base-T
Unless he is doing some super crazy work from home I'm thinking the cat5e wiring will do him and his family for a long time.

And it was mine, if you want I'll show you the Corporation dissolution papers i got in the mail the other day from the Secretary of the state.

And if its planned right it wont be a big deal. It got there in the first place right.

I know so many ITs that also say "this is all the computer you need" with mid range computers, and then a year two so later, it is too slow. which they then say "of course it is - you should up grade every 2 years..." If you are constantly upgrading things, then middle of the road is great. if its something you are going to use for an extended time - get the fastest you can at the time.

just saying for a home install, the cost of the cable will be the lesser of the costs. Run the fastest you can afford, or plan on having it to slow in the future.


Of course, if all the links are only for connecting to your ISP, and NOT so much networking computers together to talk to each other - wireless (yes it isn't Gbit, but neither is your ISP connection) or even Cat 5 would probably be fine, unless you are dropping a few hundred a month for a business quality line into your house, 10Mbit/100Mbit capability is about all you are going to get from your ISP connection - and if you split that width across a few computers connecting at the same time...

MrNiceGuy
05-12-2009, 10:57 AM
Man, all the networking essentials, ccna, tcp/ip tests I crammed for years ago are all flooding back into my brain reading this thread....:P

Didn't know there were so many hardcore cable monkeys (me included) on this board.

Just goes to prove this board teach so much more than just gun stuff.

Carry on!

Mayhem
05-12-2009, 12:10 PM
I know so many ITs that also say "this is all the computer you need" with mid range computers, and then a year two so later, it is too slow. which they then say "of course it is - you should up grade every 2 years..." If you are constantly upgrading things, then middle of the road is great. if its something you are going to use for an extended time - get the fastest you can at the time.

just saying for a home install, the cost of the cable will be the lesser of the costs. Run the fastest you can afford, or plan on having it to slow in the future.


Of course, if all the links are only for connecting to your ISP, and NOT so much networking computers together to talk to each other - wireless (yes it isn't Gbit, but neither is your ISP connection) or even Cat 5 would probably be fine, unless you are dropping a few hundred a month for a business quality line into your house, 10Mbit/100Mbit capability is about all you are going to get from your ISP connection - and if you split that width across a few computers connecting at the same time...

Honestly, Computing power depends on application, If all you do is some office apps, watch movies, look at pictures, surf the internet, and play starcraft, you're good to go with a late model p3. This same system will probably get you by for a few more years as long as you don't upgrade your apps and you don't expand on your PC interest.

One of the reasons peoples computers seem slower is they accrue allot of crap on their system and never properly maintain them, or tune them. They also tend to run out and upgrade their apps thinking the newer stuff works better or faster like going from office 2000 to Office 2007.

IF you do Rendering Transcoding, do CAD work, Audio/Video Editing, and/or your a hardcore Gamer you need the latest and greatest.


Wireless (802.11g avoid 802.11b) is Ok for one to a couple of computers that are going to connect to the internet. However get to many computers or devices on your wireless and your looking at upgrading past 802.11g and going with the more expensive 802.11n this is mostly due to the number of antennas and signals you have and what the antennas can handle. Your 54mbps is also your entire bandwidth for all your devices,

Wireless has other issues such as security.

I use WPA2 encryption, Mac address filtering, and my CPID open broadcast is off, on my wireless. My wired network is still more secure because you have to break into my house, get past my alarm, ,my dogs, and me with a gun, to get into my network wired. It would be far safer and easier to hack into my network from the internet or wireless side then wired.

Lastly getting wireless set up and keeping it up is a pain in the arse compared to wired, Wireless is only easer with the physical connections and is a more flexible. Get allot of EMRFI or you have high concintration of wireless networks around your home your going to have issues. The first time you go to transfer allot of data like moving your mp3 collection your going to realize fast how limited wireless is compared to gigabit ethernet.

The cost of the materials such as the router, switch, UPS, punch down block, Patch panel, splitters, Modular jacks/wall plates. alligator boxes, and even expensive cable like plenum cat 6 STP cable probably will not cost as much as the labor will.


Your typical ISP max bandwiths are ....

3mbps wireless (Clearwire)
3mbps Cable (Comcast, Cox, Charter, Astound/Saren Innovation)
6mbps DSL (ATT/Verizon)
18mbps Uverse (ATT)
30mbps Fiber to the Prem (Surewest in Fairoaks)

mindwip
05-23-2009, 6:01 PM
You should not be running anything less then cat5e. Cat5e will cover everything you need now and in the future. Your next up grade will be fiber to handle 100gig internet. Until then stick with cat5e. Dont run cat3 there is not one good reason to! As to cat6 you wont need it, its over kill.

If you every switch to a VOIP phone system cat5e will come in handy

SnipeShot
05-24-2009, 1:24 PM
CAT5e is roughly 50.00 cheaper then CAT6 and works just as well plus its easier to put the connectors on since you don't have to separate them into the plastic separator that goes on the CAT6 connector.