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View Full Version : Military brass mutillation order - News!


bruss01
03-17-2009, 9:40 AM
ETA - Read the whole post before you cry DUPE! This is NEW information!

I just heard from a poster on another forum (who works in the industry) that there is a new development in the situation regarding crushing/shredding spent military cartridges.

The situation is basically, that this spent brass has been designated class "b" for a long time, which usually requires it to be destroyed before sale. However, some items in class b were given exemptions, and spent brass was one of these, which allowed it to be sold to the public and to factory reloading operations intact. Well, there was a policy review recently and due to security concerns all the exemptions for class b materials was revoked. Word is that when the exemptions were pulled en masse, no one considered the impact on the secondary cartridge brass market. Well, due to all the noise that has been made, the spent brass is being re-classified as class Q. I'm told that this makes it ok to be sold for reloading purposes once again.

Sorry that isn't terribly detailed, but this is fast breaking, I don't know all the proper terms, but as of this morning he says they have the official word - brass is ok to sell intact once more.

Thought you all would enjoy hearing that!

deleted by PC police
03-17-2009, 9:44 AM
I so hope that is true and I hope that it happend because gun owners smacked Baraki boy and his ilk down in just a couple of days.

ghostwong
03-17-2009, 9:47 AM
I heard this on Gun Talk. This drive ammo cost up even more. Some of the brass are sold to companies that reload ammo, well if that brass is no longer there, they will need to find other sources of brass.

gose
03-17-2009, 9:55 AM
It's not news.. this is like the fifth thread on this subject...

ohsmily
03-17-2009, 10:10 AM
:dupe:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163754

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163506

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=162537

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2179931

tmuller
03-17-2009, 10:28 AM
Wow some here did not read the OP. I hope that is true and thanks!!

bruss01
03-17-2009, 10:29 AM
Hey doofus (or is that doofi, plural?)

This thread is not about the problem.

This is about late breaking news that the problem, widely reported elsewhere,

has been fixed!

imho, not a dup and worthy of a separate thread. Anyone actually read the OP? I checked the "dupe" threads and not one of them contained the information about the Q reclassification and the fixing of the situation. That makes this NOT A DUPE.

Dr Rockso
03-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Huh, that's weird. I had heard that class B materials only need to be destroyed if they're being exported, but maybe it's some weird ITAR thing. Anyway, glad to hear that the :willy_nilly: might be over.

bruss01
03-17-2009, 10:41 AM
Ok, so now I've had a couple minutes, here are the actual posts from the industry insider:

You are absolutely wrong about this. Surplus brass from the DOD is sold frequently at many DRMO locations through the govliquidation.com auction site. Brass has always been classified as demil "B", but has been exempt from mutilation until the new directive handed down by the DRMS last week. I work for DOD Surplus/Government Liquidation. I'm certain of these facts.


I just talked to my CEO. There is no conspiracy to limit the ammo supply. Spent brass cases are considered "demil B" items. Historically, there have been dozens of demil B type items that have been exempt from mutilation before resale because they had an exemption. Brass was one item that received the exemption. Recently, as a matter of policy review these exemptions were all yanked due to security concerns, without much consideration given to whether each exempt item actually posed a risk to national security or not. It was a sweeping, knee-jerk reaction to close a loophole. Brass just happened to get caught up in that snare.

I can't comment on specifics on how, if, or when this might get resolved but I can assure you the phone calls, emails, and general ruckus being made over this restriction is getting the attention of the decision makers. Please keep up the protests and continue to call attention to this unnecessary regulation.

Good new! I've been told by my CEO that as of this morning the requirement to mutilate expended brass has been lift by virtue of a reclassification from Demil B to Demil Q. This applies to all calibers .50 and under. I'm still trying to get confirmation that .50 cal is included in the "safe to sell" list, or whether mutilation is still required.

I'm busy at work right now, but I will try to post back with more detail and updates when I get the chance.

Hope that adds a little substance to my initial sketchy report on this news.

BamBam-31
03-17-2009, 10:47 AM
That is indeed good news. Thanks for passing it along. :)

cleanguy46
03-17-2009, 10:48 AM
Hey doofus (or is that doofi, plural?)

This thread is not about the problem.

This is about late breaking news that the problem, widely reported elsewhere,

has been fixed!

imho, not a dup and worthy of a separate thread. Anyone actually read the OP? I checked the "dupe" threads and not one of them contained the information about the Q reclassification and the fixing of the situation. That makes this NOT A DUPE.

:ban:Thanks for the info though. Lol!

Flintlock Tom
03-17-2009, 10:50 AM
Ok, so now I've had a couple minutes, here are the actual posts from the industry insider:







Hope that adds a little substance to my initial sketchy report on this news.

Can you give us a link to your source so we can keep an eye on it?

bruss01
03-17-2009, 10:57 AM
I'm soliciting from him copies or actual text of the decision once he gets his hands on it. If possible, I'll post here when the info becomes available.

Librarian
03-17-2009, 12:09 PM
Demill code "B" is also "Demilitarization Not Required"; "Q" is that, but says the item is a "Strategic List Item" and is subject to export controls.

ajaffe
03-17-2009, 12:25 PM
Basically, from my take, what was happening was reloading companies were buying brass as "scrap metal" since it was cheaper, and then turning around and reusing that brass to reload ammunition with. All that is happening is that companies must spend the extra little bit to buy used brass intended for reloading. The brass casings that are being sold as scrap still are what is being changed as they must be de-mil'ed before being able to be bought as scrap.

pepsi2451
03-17-2009, 12:34 PM
Basically, from my take, what was happening was reloading companies were buying brass as "scrap metal" since it was cheaper, and then turning around and reusing that brass to reload ammunition with. All that is happening is that companies must spend the extra little bit to buy used brass intended for reloading. The brass casings that are being sold as scrap still are what is being changed as they must be de-mil'ed before being able to be bought as scrap.

So your saying they have been paying scrap price for brass until now?

ajaffe
03-17-2009, 12:38 PM
It seemed that certain places, NO idea which ones, were buying the brass at scrap metal prices with the intention of reloading them. So the .gov caught onto it and all brass intended to be sold at the scrap rates will be "destroyed" so that those companies actually have to pay the extra for brass that is to be used to reload with.

Librarian
03-17-2009, 12:39 PM
See this post (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5433920&postcount=68) at THR. From gov liquidation ...
Todd: Can you clearify as to what is happening?

Heidi: We received a slight change in the mutilation requirements for expended cartridges. Effective immediately any expended mention 50 caliber(12.7mm) or smaller can be released without mutilation. This includes expended cartridges and links. All other expended munitions larger than 50 cal including grenade fuses and flare canisters etc must still be mutilated.

capo
03-17-2009, 12:50 PM
OWNED!

yellowfin
03-17-2009, 1:49 PM
I was reading about it in on Arfcom and they mention that Clinton had ordered over a million Garands destroyed. Is that true?

Librarian
03-17-2009, 3:06 PM
From a Govt Liquidation (http://www.govliquidation.com/) employee on Arfcom via THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5434077&postcount=76) The facts as I know them, which come directly from candid discussions with my CEO, indicate the following:

- Prior to 11/2008, Demil B items required no mutilation for sale to the public. That policy changed in November, but several exceptions were granted. Expended munitions brass was one of those given a waiver.
- Enter the new administration. Since Demil B category items had been given a broad, general label as "national security sensitive" someone above the DRMS (likely in the DLA) reviewed the policy and immediately went with a CYA policy and yanked all exemptions. No thoughts or considerations were given to the implications of this policy change, but this directive was issued to DOD Surplus effective immediately last week.
- S&$! storm blows up as a result. In particular, the letters, phone calls, and emails to our legislators, the media, and anyone else who would listen caused this policy to be review post haste.
- As of this morning our company was informed that expended munitions brass will now be reclassified as Demil Q which requires no mutilation unless sold to a foreign country.

There you have it. The policy change was simply the result of some n00b administrator attempting to close a perceived "national security" loophole and brass got caught up in the snare. There was no political motivation behind the policy change, but it is good that people like us were suspicious, got involved, and helped bring about a resolution.

Several of the auctions for expended brass still note 'mutilation required' - I would guess there will be some cleanup time required.

bruss01
03-17-2009, 3:37 PM
I had an interesting thought just now.

It appears this whole fiasco is the result of the unintended consequence of a bureaucrat doing a CYA maneuver.

I'm sure the crap-storm thus unleashed has not gone un-noticed. It is pleasing to see how quickly this resolved the situation. However, it occurs to me that if word came down from the Obama administration that "we don't care who's upset, the decision sticks" - that the consumers of ammo in this country would find themselves in a world of hurt.

It's all about supply and demand. Usually, they balance each other out. But in cases where demand is inelastic, a very small shortfall can cause a dramatic increase in price. It would accomplish much the same thing as putting a huge tax surcharge on ammo, making it unobtainable for all practical purposes. Just a thought. This go-round may have been an accident. The next one... maybe not.

tiki
03-17-2009, 4:39 PM
I would suspect that the backlash would be similar to the one after 1994.

yellowfin
03-17-2009, 6:20 PM
I would suspect that the backlash would be similar to the one after 1994. In many ways I hope not. The "backlash" of 94 did not hit the worst people who were responsible for the AWB, it didn't strike the law immediately upon implementation, didn't wipe out the anti gun elements of the worst states to the root, and didn't prevent individual state AWBs. It also didn't stick to the Rinos either, who only multiplied after a few years.

Those are shortcomings of that time we should not soon forget. Our side did not finish the job at the time, so now our enemies are back.
Of course we did get pro 2A activism a huge jump start and have seen many benefits from it. We have now what we do because people got spurred in 94 to react to it. We know that. But we need to understand the need for permanent victory rather than just temporary or half wins.

bruss01
03-17-2009, 9:45 PM
From Georgia Arms:

Dear Loyal Customers,

Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms

bruss01
03-18-2009, 6:00 AM
Please read the latest from the MSSA.........


Dear MSSA Friends,

I just received a phone call from the office of U.S. Senator Tester of Montana to inform me that at 5:15 (EST) today a letter cosigned by Senator Tester (D-MT) and Senator Baucus (D-MT) was faxed to the Department of Defense asking DoD to reverse its new policy requiring destruction of fired military cartridge brass. At 5:30, I am told, Tester's office received a fax back from DoD saying that the brass destruction policy IS reversed.

Others report to me that they are already seeing evidence of this on the Websites of entities that liquidate surplus DoD commodities.

Our thanks go out to Senator Tester and Senator Baucus, and their staff, for getting on this problem promptly and making the reversal happen

Staff for Tester and Baucus promise they will get me the documentation for this reversal tomorrow morning. I'll forward that when I get it.

Best wishes,

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com