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Bad-mofo
03-13-2009, 10:31 AM
I had two rifles stolen 10 years ago and while I'm mostly to blame for being careless about gun safes and security alarms, I still tend to think a conventional gun safe only makes it marginally harder for a professional thief. There's no doubt such professional broke into my house and it was later confirmed by all police officers who inspected the scene. You're going to hate me for this remark, but I was impressed myself. As much as we hate thieves, it's just another line of work, and some people are experts.

I do have both the safe and home security now, but have been thinking of getting a better safe. Anyone has a successful (for you, not the thief) theft/burglary story about their safe? I tend to think the alarm would suffice, as the Sheriff's station is around the corner, but what do I know about professional thieves. Anyone tried to open (or just take) your safe and failed? And if they did, what are the chances those people would break into your house again with the proper tools?

cactus
03-13-2009, 10:39 AM
Id say it depends on the quality of the safe. Any deterrent is better than none at all. My father in law said it best when I bought my bench rifle. "You just bought a rifle that cost 4 times as much as your safe maybe you should up grade". I have multiple safes now and an alarm an even custom welded latches do I think it will stop a true professional? No. What I do hope is they buy me time and change the mind of lazy low lives who hope to profit off my hard work.

rp55
03-13-2009, 10:56 AM
Scary.
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ohsmily
03-13-2009, 11:04 AM
Scary.
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That is a bottom of the barrel safe without multiple locking pins. That video is more or less a sham. Also, even with that bottom of the barrel safe, if it was tucked in a corner and/or bolted to the concrete, they wouldn't be able to generate the leverage and angle that they did to get it open.

To the OP, if there is a professional thief who has special knowledge for opening safes and/or has plenty of time to do it once he is in your house and noise isn't a factor and who knows about your gun collection and wants it, there isn't anything you can do. You can however do many little things to slow even the best guys down. But seriously, if noise and time isn't much a factor, any grinder or cutting tool with an abrasive steel cutting bit and get into most residential safes fairly quickly and with an acetylene torch, fuggedaboudit. My safe is bolted to the concrete and tucked between a wall and my workbench. A thief's best bet for mine might be to wrap chains around and it, hook it to a truck and try to rip it out. That would make lots of noise and attract attention so it isn't very feasible.

Soldier415
03-13-2009, 11:06 AM
go check out sturdysafes website, see some of the pics and videos they have on there of safe comparisons when it comes to fire and break ins

hoozaru
03-13-2009, 11:09 AM
I am not a fan of Liberty Centurion and Gauge 11 steel, however that video is all Sales BS.

DVSmith
03-13-2009, 11:16 AM
Nothing is perfect, and as said before, a motivated and talented thief will most likely get what he/she is after. The idea is to discourage even trying. That is the point of home security system and proper residential lighting and landscaping. The safe becomes a secondary deterrent. If the alarm is blaring and the police are on the way, taking enough time to break into a safe or break it loose from the concrete and studs it is attached to may be just enough to discourage the thief. Short of that, make sure you have enough insurance to cover the loss.

Bad-mofo
03-13-2009, 11:22 AM
IMO it'd take more than 2 minutes and with the ringing alarm only very confident thieves would be willing to take chances.

chsk9
03-13-2009, 12:02 PM
IMO it'd take more than 2 minutes and with the ringing alarm only very confident thieves would be willing to take chances.

Add my two Rottweilers who get very annoyed when they are woken by the perimeter alarm to the equation. It is difficult to work the pry bar when your leg is being torn off... Also they don't mention the fact that the safe isn't bolted to the floor. :thumbsup:

zinfull
03-13-2009, 12:10 PM
Pretty much a pro who is good with safes will not touch the gun safe. They will look for the small house safe where you keep jewels and money. Most guns have serial numbers and they keep track of stolen guns. Not a lot of profit in stolen guns any more. When I was a kid you would buy a gun from anyone and never think about if it was stolen. The big factor was if the license number etched into the barrel matched who you bought the gun from.

As far as crack heads and scum you just need to make it hard for them to steal the guns. Most times they will give up before the can break open a good safe.

jerry

paintballergb
03-13-2009, 12:22 PM
Another thing to think about when bolting a safe is its location in proximity to a wall. Put a safe where there isn't enough room to use a pry bar.

ilbob
03-13-2009, 12:23 PM
You have to think about security as a layered thing. The harder it is for a thief, the less likely he is to come visit you.

The safe is the last barrier.

The cheap sheet metal safes can be defeated most of the time with a big screwdriver used as a pry bar. However, you can make it somewhat harder by bolting the thing into a corner so it is harder to get leverage on it.

A guy told me once he had gotten some hardened chain and a serious padlock and wrapped it around his $99 "safe" to make it near impossible to pry the door off. Not perfect but made it harder for the average thief.

Sadly, a lot of times thieves come to visit where they know there is something they want. Part of your security plan is not to brag about what you have, or any part of your security arrangements.

AKman
03-13-2009, 1:07 PM
I keep a little irritating surprise in my safe that is activated when the door is opened all the way.

berto
03-13-2009, 1:16 PM
A pro with enough time will defeat your safe but is probably not the guy that will be in your house while you're at work.

A tweaker will likely grab the easiest way to his next high.

RANGER295
03-13-2009, 1:58 PM
I am not too worried about anyone getting into either of my safes. One is a double door safe that used to be a bank vault in the late 1800’s. My other safe is TL-30 rated and big enough for me to stand up inside of. It weighs more than my truck… here are some of the highlights of it;

Door:
• Overall thickness of 5-3/4" and is construc-ted with a 2-3/4" defense barrier of outer and inner steel plates creating a single structure enclosing a unique, high density fire and burglary resistant composite mat-erial.

• Defense barrier houses a proprietary amalgamation of nuggets and steel fibers to withstand concentrated attacks with the most sophisticated equipment used by burglars today.

• The TL-30 model offers a massive solid steel hard plate covering the entire door.

• Incorporated into the AMVAULT TL-30 auxiliary key lock is an optional high security tempered glass relock mechanism with a remotely and randomly placed “cross locking” relocking bolt and thermal cords to protect against torch attacks.

• In the event of an attack by tools, torches, or explosives, the glass will shatter activating the highly sophisticated relock mechanism.

• Utilizing the glass relock mechanism can offer up to a total of six different relock devices offering the ultimate in high security protection.

Body:
• The formed body has a total protective thickness of 3-1/2" enclosing a high density fire resistant composite material with nuggets and steel fibers.

• A reinforced drill resistant door frame protects the door and each individual bolt chamber from severe side attacks.

• A proprietary inner barrier protects against
peeling attacks.

Fire Endurance:
• Two hour, 350°F factory fire rating. Tested at temperatures up to 1850°F

Locking Mechanism:
• Equipped with twelve massive 1-1/2" diameter chrome plated solid steel locking bolts. Each bolt moves deep into the body's protected bolt chambers.

• Entire boltwork mechanism is also protected by a spring operated boltwork detent system. Bolts stay in the retracted position when the door is opened and automatically engage when the door is closed.

• Safes equipped with a three way active boltwork mechanism engaging the bolts horizontally and vertically into the body of the safe.

Locks:
• Equipped with a U.L. listed Group II key changeable combination lock. The lock is protected by a massive drill shattering hard plate and two additional spring- loaded devices.

Auxiliary Key Lock:
• U.L. listed, high security auxiliary key lock. Lock is equipped with 2 keys and escutcheon plate.

• An additional spring-loaded relock device protecting lock against punch attacks.
Includes Glass Relocking

MikeinnLA
03-13-2009, 3:04 PM
big enough for me to stand up inside of.

For God's sake, don't ever let the door shut behind you. Yikes!

pat038536
03-13-2009, 4:34 PM
I'm thinking on buying a safe myself.. any recommendations, places to avoid..etc?

TDS in Loomis recommended ColdSteelSafe cause they did their setup.

Bad-mofo
03-13-2009, 5:06 PM
Ok... :) Just to put things in perspective I only have one rifle and two handguns now. Though special for me, all three are absolutely ordinary as far as black market value goes with the Buckmark .22 probably being 100% useless in the criminal world. Sure, they'll sell it to Mexican cartels. :) I'm planning to get another rifle when the funds allow and that'd be it for a while. Is it worth a $1000+ safe?

I don't know how professional gun thieves get their info (assuming you don't brag about your collection), but if it's DROS or any other database there are many people in line before me with larger collections. While I'm on the topic it's scary how many places require your address: primarily shooting ranges. Plus it can be obtained by your car license plate. Not officially of course, but I'm sure criminals know. Am I being too paranoid?

So I'm only concerned with amateur theft. If they can quickly break into the safe they'll sure take the guns being a hot commodity on the black market. But if it's too much hassle for them to open the safe they'll take whatever is lying around: jewelry, electronics, notebooks, bicycles. And yes, I have a small "jewelry" safe in plain view, so they won't leave empty-handed. I'm just wondering what common thief safe-cracking skills are.

professorhard
03-13-2009, 5:19 PM
booby trap it

eccvets
03-13-2009, 5:38 PM
just get insurnace and buy a new set of guns. So what if someone steals your guns, you can just buy brand new ones! Seriously, just call the cops and report your guns stolen (no your not gonna be responsible or anyone getting shot with your guns if they were stolen!); then call insurnace company, they write you a check for whatever you lost and bingo, your back to square one!

As for those with the mega safes, 2 words for you... Thermic Lance! I'll get thru your biggest safes in just a few minuets if not less! If that doesn't work or I can't afford one and I really want in to that safe, me and my 5 buddies will just take you hostage or one of your loved ones and make you open the safe for me! It really isn't that hard or complicated. Bottom line is why stress about something you really have no control over? Just buy insurnace!

eccvets
03-13-2009, 5:46 PM
You have to think about security as a layered thing. The harder it is for a thief, the less likely he is to come visit you.

The safe is the last barrier.



Hahahahaha your kidding me right? If a thief wants something from you, there isn't a thing in the world you can do to stop him! Personnaly if I was a theif, I'd be more inclinded to come and pay you a visit knowing that you actually have something to protect! Why in the hell would I wanna steal from someone which has nothing compared to someone which has a big safe with goodies inside?

If you need the peace of mind to sleep at night and a safe will give that to you, then that is a good reason to buy it but if you think a safe will actually keep your **** safe, think again. Oh yeah, if your afraid of a fire, then buying a fire resistant safe to give you peace of mind is also a good investment.

Travis8128
03-13-2009, 5:50 PM
the theives would have to find my safe first :)

deleted by PC police
03-13-2009, 5:57 PM
I'm thinking on buying a safe myself.. any recommendations, places to avoid..etc?

TDS in Loomis recommended ColdSteelSafe cause they did their setup.

I got mine from cold steel in roseville, Cool people, I just wish they had been more helpfull when my lock crapped out.

RANGER295
03-13-2009, 6:52 PM
For God's sake, don't ever let the door shut behind you. Yikes!

I have never stepped inside of it, I was just saying it is big enough. It is 6’ tall inside. The door is way too heavy to close from the inside without a handle. But if I was in there and somehow did close it, I would be really screwed because when the door closes, it automatically throws all of the bolts and locks.:eek:

B Strong
03-13-2009, 7:06 PM
I had two rifles stolen 10 years ago and while I'm mostly to blame for being careless about gun safes and security alarms, I still tend to think a conventional gun safe only makes it marginally harder for a professional thief. There's no doubt such professional broke into my house and it was later confirmed by all police officers who inspected the scene. You're going to hate me for this remark, but I was impressed myself. As much as we hate thieves, it's just another line of work, and some people are experts.

I do have both the safe and home security now, but have been thinking of getting a better safe. Anyone has a successful (for you, not the thief) theft/burglary story about their safe? I tend to think the alarm would suffice, as the Sheriff's station is around the corner, but what do I know about professional thieves. Anyone tried to open (or just take) your safe and failed? And if they did, what are the chances those people would break into your house again with the proper tools?

Pros are few and far between, and they don't waste time on residential burglaries.

The typical burglar is a dope fiend looking for a quick score, whatever is easiest to carry away without arousing suspicion.

If your safe is too big for two skinny meth heads to carry away, you're good to go.

Swiss
03-13-2009, 7:51 PM
just get insurnace and buy a new set of guns. So what if someone steals your guns, you can just buy brand new ones! Seriously, just call the cops and report your guns stolen (no your not gonna be responsible or anyone getting shot with your guns if they were stolen!); then call insurnace company, they write you a check for whatever you lost and bingo, your back to square one! (snip)

Another reason to buy a safe, or secure your firearms in some other way, is to avoid having them wind up on the streets and used in homicides. From your post I sense you don't give a d*mn about that, but you need to realize that it's a big problem.

eccvets
03-13-2009, 7:55 PM
Another reason to buy a safe, or secure your firearms in some other way, is to avoid having them wind up on the streets and used in homicides. From your post I sense you don't give a d*mn about that, but you need to realize that it's a big problem.

who the F gives a S if they end up on the street? are you telling me there arnt thousands of gun already out on the street? Your right, i dont give a d*mn about it because one way or another, gang bangers are gonna get their guns. Buying a safe does not change it one bit! Why spend good money and worry about stuff you can't change or make a different in?

ThatFishGuy
03-13-2009, 8:35 PM
Alright i dont mean to break up this little fight, but i have some info that might help, at least with one aspect of safes. I know alot of people here get quality safes for all the right reasons, to guard all sorts of valuables, not just firearms. my family did the same. I dont know exactly which brand/model we had but this thing was intense. the safe measured about 5' tall by maybe 2' wide and deep. it weighed a s***-ton and the walls were almost 3" thick, had 7 cross locking bolts, and was insulated to "fire proof" for several hrs at i forget what temp rating. (guessing several hundred degrees).

Heres the FACT: when a real house fire is raging....its not only a few hundred degrees...internal temps can hit 1000+ we had a fire and keep in mind it was limited to only about 3 rooms (actual flames) though the entire house was destroyed. all firearms were corroded, some beyond repair, along with just about everything else inside. before leaving for school i had intentionally gone through and detail cleaned + lubed every one of them. didnt help one bit. if there is something you really NEED, make copies if you can (and store in another location) or dont store in your house. thank god we had insurance, many irreplaceable things were lost, including some guns, but at least we could replace most. Im sure there's some safes that could withstand this out there....but im betting most of yours wont. here's your eye-opener:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/freefallin681/of50590442.jpg

Jonathan Doe
03-13-2009, 9:02 PM
I have a Fort Knox safe that has 6 1" bolts on the sides, 1 on top and 1 on bottom and 1 on each corner for the total of 18 1" bolts and 3/8" thick door, 800 lbs empty. I feel pretty safe with it. It is fire proof for 1 hour also.

Swiss
03-13-2009, 9:16 PM
who the F gives a S if they end up on the street? are you telling me there arnt thousands of gun already out on the street? Your right, i dont give a d*mn about it because one way or another, gang bangers are gonna get their guns. Buying a safe does not change it one bit! Why spend good money and worry about stuff you can't change or make a different in?

You're a poster child for the Brady bunch and don't even realize it. Of course there are other ways for thugs to obtain guns, but locking up what you don't need for personal defense is one way to limit what they get their hands on. If gun owners don't give a d*mn about how guns get on our streets then the criticism from the left will be richly deserved. How about you put your selfish attitude aside for a sec and consider what's best for the all gun owners?

chiselchst
03-13-2009, 9:52 PM
go check out sturdysafes website, see some of the pics and videos they have on there of safe comparisons when it comes to fire and break ins
+1
As my sig says; My opinion - worth what you paid for it...OK?

I ditto the comments regarding a Sturdy Safe. Their my choice by a Country mile. Also, they are made here in the Republic of Kaleeforneea, in the Central State. So shipping might be less. I researched them for my needs, and Sturdy Safe was the ticket. I wanted the best fire protection and physical security, as I also have several antique marine charts, from the mid 1850's. IMHO, the they have the best locks & mechanism, best door seals, and best fire protection (by far). And they use they heavier metals as in 7 or 8 gauge outer, and 5/16" or 1/4" doors. The best safe, and they are actually priced reasonably! Many Gov agencies use them. Guaranteed for life.

The fellow that owns the company has worked with the Fresno fire Dept arson squad - and has actually placed many of his safes in the intentional full burn downs of residential homes (for FF training), and has developed the best fire protection available through actual field trials.

Most safes use "fiberboard", i.e., sheetrock. That does NOT do well for Fire protection. Sturdy Safe uses the more effective and expensive ceramic fiber insulation designed for much higher temps (we use the exact same material in the plants were I work (the largest oil refinery in NorCal) were temps are constantly at above 1,000°F.

I'd recommend everyone stay away from fiber-board as a fire-protection. Also, educate yourself on the actual "fire ratings" and faults these so called tests have. Call Sturdy Safes, they'll it much better than I. But the ratings don't really mean squat...

http://sturdysafe.com/

ohsmily
03-13-2009, 10:00 PM
Hahahahaha your kidding me right? If a thief wants something from you, there isn't a thing in the world you can do to stop him! Personnaly if I was a theif, I'd be more inclinded to come and pay you a visit knowing that you actually have something to protect! Why in the hell would I wanna steal from someone which has nothing compared to someone which has a big safe with goodies inside?

If you need the peace of mind to sleep at night and a safe will give that to you, then that is a good reason to buy it but if you think a safe will actually keep your **** safe, think again. Oh yeah, if your afraid of a fire, then buying a fire resistant safe to give you peace of mind is also a good investment.

:rolleyes: You watch too many movies.

Your arguments are absurd. Why lock anything up I guess??? I guess you should just leave your front door open and let them come in since they can get it if they want it. :rolleyes:

Seesm
03-13-2009, 10:18 PM
I keep a little irritating surprise in my safe that is activated when the door is opened all the way.

PM me what this si cuz I wnat to keep all my stuff safe and it sound slike you have some fun stuff!! :)

Swiss
03-13-2009, 10:22 PM
PM me what this si cuz I wnat to keep all my stuff safe and it sound slike you have some fun stuff!! :)

Isn't that similar to "man traps" (or whatever it is) and therefore illegal? I know, the idea that someone breaking into your safe could sue you for assault is nauseating.

rue
03-13-2009, 10:26 PM
Add my two Rottweilers who get very annoyed when they are woken by the perimeter alarm to the equation. It is difficult to work the pry bar when your leg is being torn off... Also they don't mention the fact that the safe isn't bolted to the floor. :thumbsup:

Looks like we have the same plan there buddy. Ol boots the rotty is working 24/7 at my house.
Good luck pushing my safe over too, it was over 900 lbs empty and now it's full of stuff. I tried to move it over a little to get behind it to install a golden rod a couple months ago and it didn't move at all. I'm a pretty big guy and I couldn't even make it move a little. That video makes a point I think about "fake" safes like the Sentry models at Home Depot or whatever. I'm glad I spent more and got a real safe.

chiselchst
03-13-2009, 10:31 PM
Alright ...had 7 cross locking bolts, and was insulated to "fire proof" for several hrs at i forget what temp rating. (guessing several hundred degrees).

Heres the FACT: when a real house fire is raging....its not only a few hundred degrees...internal temps can hit 1000+ we had a fire and keep in mind it was limited to only about 3 rooms (actual flames) though the entire house was destroyed. all firearms were corroded, some beyond repair, along with just about everything else inside. before leaving for school i had intentionally gone through and detail cleaned + lubed every one of them. didnt help one bit. if there is something you really NEED, make copies if you can (and store in another location) or dont store in your house. thank god we had insurance, many irreplaceable things were lost, including some guns, but at least we could replace most. Im sure there's some safes that could withstand this out there....but im betting most of yours wont. here's your eye-opener:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/freefallin681/of50590442.jpg

The temperature of a residential house fire can reach up to 1,500°F, but the "internal temperature" is a term used to measure what the safe sees inside. Anything with internal safe temperatures above like 300°F or so will burn paper.

Many safes use a test where they chart the internal temperature after a certain amount of time, regardless of what happens "after" that point. If you research this, you will observe the safes internal temperatures are trending UP at the end of that test. But they don't talk about that. That's what your valuable will experience. Then there's burn until point of no return. No one talks about that one.

Let me guess - that safe had "fiberboard" (or sheetrock) as fire it's protection? Many only use this. Not good. Cheap, yeah. But not a good fire protection material. Plus, it has a large percentage of "moisture", which vaporizes when heated, thus providing the little fire/heat protection it has, but increasing the humidity to levels not desired. I.e., steam...

I have worked in a very large refinery for almost 30 years. We have many furnaces that run at ~1,200 deg F, and ceramic wool is what is used.
Not sheetrock/gypsom.

Here's a quote from the Sturdy Safe site:"Most safe companies test their safes in controlled testing furnaces, which perform like oversized house ovens, yet get a lot hotter than your normal oven.

These safe companies tell the laboratory to eliminate 2 important factors when testing their sheet rock lined safes:

1st. Point Of No Return - Most safe companies eliminate point of no return, as if it is not a factor (this means when the inside wall of the safe is hot enough to carry the inside temperature to combustion and there is nothing one can do to cool it down).

2nd. Cool Down Time - They eliminate cool down time (a time that every safe must go through before you can open it). Within this time of cooling, the safe is still cooking. For example, if one took a frying pan off a stove, the heat is still going to cook the hamburger on the pan, even though the heat is off it. A safe is a lot thicker and bigger than a frying pan, so just imagine the amount of time it really takes it to cool. Eliminating those two factors will make cheap fire lined safes look like they do well in fire rating tests.

Why would our competitors do this? Because it's the cheapest material that can be called an insulator.

More Information: When companies list the UL Rating, the majority are only referring to UL Rating of the insulation itself. UL WILL NOT TEST A SAFE LINED WITH FIRE RATED SHEETROCK."

Seesm
03-13-2009, 10:37 PM
just get insurnace and buy a new set of guns. So what if someone steals your guns, you can just buy brand new ones! Seriously, just call the cops and report your guns stolen (no your not gonna be responsible or anyone getting shot with your guns if they were stolen!); then call insurnace company, they write you a check for whatever you lost and bingo, your back to square one!

As for those with the mega safes, 2 words for you... Thermic Lance! I'll get thru your biggest safes in just a few minuets if not less! If that doesn't work or I can't afford one and I really want in to that safe, me and my 5 buddies will just take you hostage or one of your loved ones and make you open the safe for me! It really isn't that hard or complicated. Bottom line is why stress about something you really have no control over? Just buy insurnace!

WOW just wow and I for sure wonder what was said that it had to be MOD edited...

rue
03-13-2009, 10:38 PM
Isn't that similar to "man traps" (or whatever it is) and therefore illegal? I know, the idea that someone breaking into your safe could sue you for assault is nauseating.

I usually put a jar of peanut butter in there with a big rubber dildo as my last ditch effort against intruders. :D

chiselchst
03-13-2009, 10:40 PM
PS It's been my personal experience that standard home "hazard/fire insurance" has a modest limit (or nothing) on the value for replacement of firearms, unless a rider is added...?

rue
03-13-2009, 10:41 PM
I heard you can only get those thermal lances if you're a Jedi though. They outlawed those too in CA.

rue
03-13-2009, 10:48 PM
PS It's been my personal experience that standard home "hazard/fire insurance" has a modest limit (or nothing) on the value for replacement of firearms, unless a rider is added...?

It depends on the company. My company has a limit on firearms specifically at $2500. You can up that to $5000 for a little more and if that's not enough you need to add a personal articles policy just for your firearms.

I was shopping for a new company and they were big companies and they said $2500 that's the limit and they don't offer anything else...Lame. One was the one who tows your car if you join their club and the other has that black guy from the unit all over it's commericals.

Obviously a Plant
03-13-2009, 11:22 PM
When I was asking around after a good safe, a locksmith reminded me that if I really wanted to keep something safe (like all those lowers being kept for the ban) get a safe deposit box. Banks spend more on their vaults than anyone.

For all the guns you want to keep at home, the hardest place to steal guns from is the one no one can find.

CaliforniaLiberal
03-14-2009, 3:50 AM
7 or 8 gauge steel body. Big enough to weigh more than 800 lbs. Bolted to the floor. That's about as good as you'll get for a RSC (Residential Security Container). A safe is one of those 15,000 lbs things you see in a bank.

Here's a great Gun 'Safe' resource:

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html

CL

Sig357
03-14-2009, 8:59 AM
Placement of the safe is critical as several have stated here. Don't place in an area where leverage is possible. Bolt your safe to concrete. My main concern is protecting my valuables from your average crook/tweaker.

On another note: Home invasion robberies are on the increase. It requires no break in skills for the thief, just a weapon and the element of surprise. There are things you can do to help prevent a Home Invasion robbery. However, what would you do if you or your spouse is caught by surprise on a home invasion, and the thief wants the combo to the safe??