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View Full Version : Why larger calibers not used in Europe?


Rob Roy
03-12-2009, 9:53 PM
Why do you think law enforcement and military sticks with 9mm handgun ammo, while larger calibers available and widely used here?

nick
03-12-2009, 10:09 PM
European military and police use the same calibers they use here. If you're talking about civilians, in quite a few European countries the larger calibers are prohibited. For example, in Denmark anything that's larger than 9mm is prohibited for handguns.

Full Clip
03-12-2009, 10:12 PM
The Europeans are much more highly refined and civilized than we are, so they don't need the big-bore toys that only a crude American would even think of using.

ojisan
03-12-2009, 10:13 PM
Zillions and zillions of 9mm rounds used, made and in storage world-wide, 9mm is cheap and readily available, originally from Europe. Euros seemed to like the smaller rounds, they used to use .30 calibers, 7.65 luger and 7.65 (.32) Auto.
.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP are more limited in supply, more costly, "too powerful" and made (mostly) in USA. I suspect there may some special units using .45ACP, but limited applications.

Rob Roy
03-12-2009, 10:14 PM
The Europeans are much more highly refined and civilized than we are, so they don't need the big-bore toys that only a crude American would even think of using.
:laugh:

Rob Roy
03-12-2009, 10:20 PM
Zillions and zillions of 9mm rounds used, made and in storage world-wide, 9mm is cheap and readily available, originally from Europe. Euros seemed to like the smaller rounds, they used to use .30 calibers, 7.65 luger and 7.65 (.32) Auto.
.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP are more limited in supply, more costly, "too powerful" and made (mostly) in USA. I suspect there may some special units using .45ACP, but limited applications.
What prevent them from producing our calibers there?

nick
03-12-2009, 10:22 PM
What prevent them from producing our calibers there?

Lack of demand and politics (large calibers are more evil than smaller calibers).

kurac
03-12-2009, 10:34 PM
cause there a bunch of gimps, just look at the cars they make and drive.

Look Wat I kAn DO !
03-12-2009, 10:39 PM
cause there a bunch of gimps, just look at the cars they make and drive.

rofl

wellfedirishman
03-12-2009, 10:44 PM
Ahem, look at some members' screennames before generalizing :-)

Europeans tend to stick to Euro calibers, as much for historical reasons as anything. Hence their fondness for 30 caliber (303 brit, 32 acp, 30 Luger) and 38 caliber (9mm, 9mm Kurtz, 380, etc.).

Brits used the Webley (45 caliber I think) for quite a few years.

Army GI
03-13-2009, 8:00 AM
The Europeans are much more highly refined and civilized than we are, so they don't need the big-bore toys that only a crude American would even think of using.

lol!

DANGERCLOSE
03-13-2009, 8:29 AM
they can keep their cheese and whine!

we have whiskey, tobacco, guns, and explosives. hell yeah:thumbsup:

E. Fudd
03-13-2009, 9:05 AM
In some Euro countries the police are a branch of the military, therefore draw from the same ammo pool.

In Italy, for example, it's not unusual to see the police armed on the streets with 9mm sub-machineguns.

Standard handgun caliber for NATO countries is 9mm.

Understand certain elite units in France prefer .357 Mags in 6 in. revolvers.

I don't think the .40 S&W is used very much, if at all, by any LE/.mil agency outside of the U.S.

9mm is generally considered enough for handguns. Heard from a Japanese friend that back in the day, the Japanese version of the Secret Service used to pack .25 ACP for VIP security details! :eek: Fortunately, they later upgraded to SIG 9mm's. :thumbsup:

I remember seeing a German border guard packing a PPK type pistol back in the 80's. Wondered if it was a .32 ACP or the more manly .380 ACP :D

Decoligny
03-13-2009, 9:37 AM
Europeans = http://www.petstation.com/catpic-amazing-12-litter.jpg

Fjold
03-13-2009, 10:09 AM
cause there a bunch of gimps, just look at the cars they make and drive.

Ferrari, McLaren. Porsche, Lambo, Jaguar, Rolls, Bentley, etc.

rrr70
03-13-2009, 10:13 AM
Ferrari, McLaren. Porsche, Lambo, Jaguar, Rolls, Bentley, etc.

They make them but don't drive them. They sell them to US, Midle East and Russia.

1lostinspace
03-13-2009, 10:13 AM
maybe because there are plenty of 9mm out there and it kills just fine.
modern 9mm JHP are more than enough to stop someone.
when i was in europe i noticed how small everyone was.

Manic Moran
03-13-2009, 10:14 AM
9mm seems to do quite adequately for the majority of purposes. I certainly wouldn't appreciate being hit by one. Why complicate the issue and increase logistical complaints?

NTM

Rob Roy
03-13-2009, 12:09 PM
Europeans = http://www.petstation.com/catpic-amazing-12-litter.jpg
LOL

kurac
03-13-2009, 1:15 PM
Ferrari, McLaren. Porsche, Lambo, Jaguar, Rolls, Bentley, etc.

um try, Fiat, VW, Opel, Lancia, Peugot ect...

gose
03-13-2009, 1:31 PM
To stop a skinny European a 9mm is more than enough.
In the US otoh, there's a good reason for the popularity of .40, .45 and 10mm Auto ;)

7x57
03-13-2009, 1:41 PM
Ferrari, McLaren. Porsche, Lambo, Jaguar, Rolls, Bentley, etc.

Yeah, there are a lot of things the Lords and Ladies can do in Europe. The peasants are peasants. It's fun to be aristocracy. Those aristocrats are why we have a Constitution, however.

7x57

cannon
03-13-2009, 2:21 PM
The U.S. Military used to use .36 cap and ball and then went to .38 cartridge revolver.

Then the United States had a little war in the Phillipenes in the late 1800's and the Army found that a .38 did not stop a drugged up enemy fast enough so the Army went to the .45. Shortly therafter John Browning brought out the .45 ACP and that was that.

At least thats the way I think it went.:thumbsup:

sgtbuck
03-13-2009, 3:01 PM
Europeans = http://www.petstation.com/catpic-amazing-12-litter.jpg

Holy cow!! LMAO and spraying soda pop through my nose and all over my computer...

Agustav
03-13-2009, 3:10 PM
cause there a bunch of gimps, just look at the cars they make and drive.

You mean like Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini... or like the cheap ones like Audi, MB, and BMW?

They are no Mustangs that's for sure! ;)

PorkLover
03-13-2009, 5:39 PM
The Europeans are much more highly refined and civilized than we are, so they don't need the big-bore toys that only a crude American would even think of using.

LOL.....not only that, they still resolve their disputes with a gentlemans "fistacuffs" and then talk about it over afternoon tea and crumpettes.......

socalgunrunner
03-13-2009, 5:48 PM
I know the real reason why. It's because they're afraid they'll just "limp wrist" anything larger than a 9mm anyway.

Real tough guys those Europeans are...

Army GI
03-13-2009, 5:50 PM
The U.S. Military used to use .36 cap and ball and then went to .38 cartridge revolver.

Then the United States had a little war in the Phillipenes in the late 1800's and the Army found that a .38 did not stop a drugged up enemy fast enough so the Army went to the .45. Shortly therafter John Browning brought out the .45 ACP and that was that.

At least thats the way I think it went.:thumbsup:

Actually, the US Army 1860 revolver was a .44

.223
03-14-2009, 3:58 AM
The punchline: everything that's been said about Europeans in this thread is also said by the rest of the US in reference to Californians. ;)

Seed
03-14-2009, 10:30 AM
cause there a bunch of gimps, just look at the cars they make and drive.

What. Small, fuel efficient and practical for their tiny *** streets? I'll take one.

grnt
03-14-2009, 11:25 AM
nobody owns guns in europe except for the ones with money. since the peasants are unarmed, it is easy to shoot them. look at england, no guns means the weapon of choice for criminals is a knife. they even wanted to regulate the length of a kitchen knife.

ricknadine1111
03-14-2009, 11:33 AM
Not everything small is bad in europe-I can still remember when I was stationed in Germany, "Oh yea!"
http://www.eulust.com/

nicki
03-14-2009, 11:46 AM
When I was doing my filming with that "French Documentary Crew", I got a few members to try shooting.

They approached the guns with FEAR, thought the 9mm was really "powerful".

Granted, they were Gay, but still, it defintely was a insight. They all passed on the 45cal. Too bad the indoor range wouldn't let me shoot my 454:43:

Nicki

Jorge
03-14-2009, 11:57 AM
They're much too civilized to shoot any handgun above 9mm. Only Americans shoot BIG rounds and drive big SUV's with their big fat arses. Atleast that's what an Englishman once told me.

7x57
03-14-2009, 12:46 PM
The punchline: everything that's been said about Europeans in this thread is also said by the rest of the US in reference to Californians. ;)

And CA voted for a president that, IIRC, said we should be more like Europe. Sounds like a justified accusation to me.

In fact, the fundamental assumption of the Democratic party seems to be that we should have a European-style absolute state with total supremacy in all areas. A fundamental goal of the framers was to ensure that this is absolutely illegal under the Constitution. Illegality doesn't stop a party from making crime part of its platform or judges from committing crime instead of obeying the law, however.

7x57

dwa
03-14-2009, 1:53 PM
When I was doing my filming with that "French Documentary Crew", I got a few members to try shooting.

They approached the guns with FEAR, thought the 9mm was really "powerful".

Granted, they were Gay, but still, it defintely was a insight. They all passed on the 45cal. Too bad the indoor range wouldn't let me shoot my 454:43:

Nicki

i hope this doesn't come off wrong but are gays generally more effeminate than your average bear? i am honestly just curious

tonelar
03-14-2009, 2:40 PM
Regardless of their sexual preference... the French aren't raised around firearms. The Euro model of democracy grants way more power to the gov.


Yall know why the French planted trees along the Champs Elyses, dontcha?


So the Nazis could march in the shade.

leitung
03-14-2009, 2:59 PM
I think the chances of a Euro police officer coming up against a drugged out suspect armed with a gun is a lot less, vs an American cop who will see that many times. I suspect that a european cop pulling their gun is a news worthy event, unlike here in American where that can happen nightly.. The need for a larger caliber such as a .40 or .45 is not there. Heck, many european cops used to carry 9mm Makarovs for a while, and some still do.

tonelar
03-14-2009, 3:15 PM
Actually 7.65(32ACP) is considered a man stopper in England.*
PD carried that and .380 for ages.


*M Boothroyd wrote extensively on the topic in the 50's- early 60's.

ersatz
03-14-2009, 8:27 PM
Metric system bias if you ask me :) They see .45 and have no clue what that entails. Wait it might be ,45 as they adopt crazy notations.

E. Fudd
03-14-2009, 9:08 PM
I think the chances of a Euro police officer coming up against a drugged out suspect armed with a gun is a lot less, vs an American cop who will see that many times. I suspect that a european cop pulling their gun is a news worthy event, unlike here in American where that can happen nightly.. The need for a larger caliber such as a .40 or .45 is not there. Heck, many european cops used to carry 9mm Makarovs for a while, and some still do.

My understanding is that crime is on the increase in the EU, including violent crime, armed gangs (w/ blackmarket guns), organized crime, etc.

I read somewhere that the violent crime rate in the UK is increasing at a rate much higher than ours, whereas ours have been level or dropping overall in some years. Take out the gang on gang stuff and our rates are definitely dropping overall. Things are so bad that some of the British police actually have to be armed (or have firearms in the trucks of their cars).... :eek:

mike100
03-14-2009, 9:26 PM
Actually 7.65(32ACP) is considered a man stopper in England.*
...

Got the job done well enough to be the catalyst that started WWI (Franz Ferdinand assassination).

I laugh everytime I open a box of 32 acp at the gunstore though.

grnt
03-15-2009, 8:24 AM
The cool thing about Europe carrying small calibers is we get the surplus. Look at all the cvz82, pa63, maks, feg 32acp, etc. that came to things country. unfortunately, we can't buy many because of prk laws.

B Strong
03-15-2009, 1:31 PM
It's a well known fact that Euro bad guys just don't stand up under fire the way American bad guys and Russians do - They don't need more than a 9.

wernst
03-15-2009, 3:16 PM
I just assumed that most europeans lack the "protective layer of blubber" that most americans have.

Hey, I'm not judging; I'm one of the fatsos I'm referring to...

-Warr

Rob Roy
03-15-2009, 8:21 PM
It's a well known fact that Euro bad guys just don't stand up under fire the way American bad guys and Russians do - They don't need more than a 9.
As far as I know, Russians use 9x18...

ojisan
03-15-2009, 8:31 PM
The 9X18 Makarov round is about the largest for a blowback handgun.
There is also the rare 9x18 Police Ultra round from Europe for blowbacks.
Both were developed to bridge the gap between .380 and 9 x19 while staying blowback.
Blowback designs are much cheaper to manufacture and buy than locked breech guns.

DocSkinner
03-15-2009, 8:37 PM
It's a well known fact that Euro bad guys just don't stand up under fire the way American bad guys and Russians do - They don't need more than a 9.

definitely a different criminal MO. The pistols are much more of a last resort and for scare purposes as teh criminals are more likely to just run. Hard to catch a fleet criminal in most european cities. tiny streets, terrible traffic, TONS of pedestrians. And there isn't teh open space we have here. So a criminal running away there on a normal day is like someone running away during a parade here, as here, nobody walks (bikes) and so a person running stands out, and is easy to follow. Here the criminals have seen to many bad westerns and want to go out "guns blazing" and also know that firing at the cops is the only way to keep the cops heads down long enough to get away.

Until the .40 S&W and the big push by the FBI, there were TONS of US LE departments that went with the 9mm, few that went with the .45, and MANY still used .357s and even some large PDs that still used a .38 special (NYC, for one...). That FBI work up gave a lot of departments a politically correct way to request better firepower for their officers. Euro politics are still very stuck in a criminals follow some laws mentallity.

And as stated - the police are often part of the military, and the patrolman's job is to call in the military if anything gets serious. Very different system.

optimus-primer
03-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Funny though, all most all desirable handguns are Eur guns. Sig, HK, Glock and Berretta to name a few.

7x57
03-15-2009, 11:08 PM
i hope this doesn't come off wrong but are gays generally more effeminate than your average bear? i am honestly just curious

Football linemen and heavyweight sumo wrestlers are more effeminate than your average bear, especially browns and grizzlies, so I'd have to say yes.

7x57

DocSkinner
03-15-2009, 11:12 PM
Football linemen and heavyweight sumo wrestlers are more effeminate than your average bear, especially browns and grizzlies, so I'd have to say yes.

7x57

depends on which kind of 'bear' you are talking about - 2 legged or 4 legged...

if that ain't clear - do a search for the terms homosexual and bear...

Rob Roy
03-15-2009, 11:15 PM
Funny though, all most all desirable handguns are Eur guns. Sig, HK, Glock and Berretta to name a few.
This is very true, ironically.