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Pulsar
10-26-2005, 4:13 PM
I was just thinking today that the Beowolf works in standard AR mags, and that a normal AR mag that holds 20 rounds of .223 can hold 8 or 9 of beowolf. It just got me wondering, how the heck would that be interpreted by the law?

C.G.
10-26-2005, 4:40 PM
I was just thinking today that the Beowolf works in standard AR mags, and that a normal AR mag that holds 20 rounds of .223 can hold 8 or 9 of beowolf. It just got me wondering, how the heck would that be interpreted by the law?

Gee, I have one of them. Vulcan 10 rounder will hold 4 .50 Beowulf rounds and FAB-10 will hold 3. As for the 20 rounder question, not too kindly I expect, it is still a 20 rounder.

bwiese
10-27-2005, 12:38 PM
I was just thinking today that the Beowolf works in standard AR mags, and that a normal AR mag that holds 20 rounds of .223 can hold 8 or 9 of beowolf. It just got me wondering, how the heck would that be interpreted by the law?

Well, if you legally have a normal AR mag then DOJ doesn't care if it's down-loaded in another caliber.

The real issue would be if Beowulf (Alexander Arms??) ships 8+ round mags with their uppers into CA - since this is after 12/31/1999. If those mags hold more than 10 rounds of 223 and operate reliably in an AR, they (Beowulf/Alex. Arms, or their distributors) and the user could be in trouble.

It sounds like CA folks might wanna look into this if acquiring Beowulf uppers/mags - until more info, I'd look at having only 3-4 round mags.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

vega
10-27-2005, 8:12 PM
I have XD9 and I bought 40S&W mags. The law states if you modify the original mag and it won't take what it was intended for then you are breaking the law. I even have a letter from DOJ. I tweaked the lips a little but will still work for 40. I could jam 15 rounds of 9mm into 40 mags.

vega

C.G.
10-27-2005, 9:01 PM
I have XD9 and I bought 40S&W mags. The law states if you modify the original mag and it won't take what it was intended for then you are breaking the law. I even have a letter from DOJ. I tweaked the lips a little but will still work for 40. I could jam 15 rounds of 9mm into 40 mags.

vega

Don't think it is a good idea to state that in a public forum.

artherd
10-27-2005, 9:04 PM
The real issue would be if Beowulf (Alexander Arms??) ships 8+ round mags with their uppers into CA - since this is after 12/31/1999. If those mags hold more than 10 rounds of 223 and operate reliably in an AR, they (Beowulf/Alex. Arms, or their distributors) and the user could be in trouble.


I'm SURE this would not be significantly different than loading 9mm into .40S&W glock mags.

(except the muuuudy grey area in placing an Alexandar Arms .50Beowulf mag into your Vulcan making a fixed-mag '10 round' .50Beowulf. Then subsequently placing a .223 upper....)

DOJ determination would be interesting then, I don't see how they'd have any choice but to allow it if hammered correctly on the .40/9mm precident they have already set.

artherd
10-27-2005, 9:05 PM
I even have a letter from DOJ.
Don't think it is a good idea to state that in a public forum.
Given the above, I sure as hell do.

Infact, post the letter! :D

vega
10-28-2005, 6:07 AM
Don't think it is a good idea to state that in a public forum.
And please tell my why you don't think so. If not then this thread should have not been started at all. I'll post it later as soon as I get my scanner working.

vega

saki302
10-28-2005, 9:09 AM
A shooting friend of mine has a .50AE upper for his AR.

It looks like the follower and lips were modified to work with the .50 cartridges, and .223 wouldn't work too well with it anymore (Assuming you could even load it without having it barf all 20 rounds instantly).

-Dave

vega
10-28-2005, 4:28 PM
Here is the letter, my bad it was ATF and not DOJ.

vega

bwiese
10-28-2005, 4:46 PM
Back when the 1994 Federal'Crime Bill' AW laws and hicap ban was in effect, I recall reading that the BATF regarded it as a no-no to "misapply" a magazine to get hicap status out of it.

But it appears tons of folks misuse HK USP40 10rd mags in HK USP9 pistols to get a coupla extra rounds...

Bill Wiese
San Jose

C.G.
10-28-2005, 5:16 PM
And please tell my why you don't think so. If not then this thread should have not been started at all. I'll post it later as soon as I get my scanner working.

vega

Because you admitted to tweaking the lips, which could be construed by a zealous DA as manufacturing a magazine.

artherd
10-28-2005, 10:12 PM
Because you admitted to tweaking the lips, which could be construed by a zealous DA as manufacturing a magazine.

Incosistant with stated legal opinion of the BATF(e) above, so long as the magazine still functions with the origional calibre, as the origional poster indicated it did. Phew.

artherd
10-28-2005, 10:13 PM
Here is the letter, my bad it was ATF and not DOJ.

vega
We now need a DOJ version. Might include this letter though to get them 'thinking along the right lines'. Address your certified letter to an attorney (Tim Rigert is a good one) within the DOJ specifically, not just a clerk.

Turbinator
10-29-2005, 12:14 AM
I have XD9 and I bought 40S&W mags. The law states if you modify the original mag and it won't take what it was intended for then you are breaking the law. I even have a letter from DOJ. I tweaked the lips a little but will still work for 40. I could jam 15 rounds of 9mm into 40 mags.

Yeah, but does it feed reliably? If not, then the exercise really is kinda useless.. IMHO!

Turby

vega
10-29-2005, 6:48 AM
2nd page last paragraph states the if "altered" magazine......
tweaked=altered...

It still does feed reliably for the 40, so no new manufacturing here.

Don't make the lips too close like the 9mm mags and it will function reliably for the 40. If you close it too much then you will have FTF with the 40.

Now, I will just have to call the office of the DOJ and get a letter.

vega

6172crew
10-29-2005, 7:23 AM
Canyon Sports doesnt sell XD9 mags, they only sell .40, when I asked why the old guy said "you figure it out"

The law is stupid and Im sure the DA would have no traction busting a guy with a .40 mag in a 9mm, as they are not marked ethier way and all say 10 rounds.

C.G.
10-29-2005, 8:29 AM
Incosistant with stated legal opinion of the BATF(e) above, so long as the magazine still functions with the origional calibre, as the origional poster indicated it did. Phew.

So what, CA DOJ is what I am concerned with. There are a lot of things legal by BATF in other states, but not in this one. Phew.

artherd
10-29-2005, 11:20 AM
So what, CA DOJ is what I am concerned with. There are a lot of things legal by BATF in other states, but not in this one. Phew.
Fine, go send a letter, Phew!

Or we could just piss at each other instead, while our rights are furthur erroded.

C.G.
10-29-2005, 1:26 PM
Fine, go send a letter, Phew!

Or we could just piss at each other instead, while our rights are furthur erroded.

First of all, I don't need to send a letter, I don't have any .40s and second, I am certain I am clear on this issue. My intentions are similar to BWiese's and Technical Ted's, I try to warn people to stay away from grey or black areas of the law. If they chose to disregard my opinion, that is up to them, I assume that everyone on this forum is responsible for their own actions.
You are much more of a risk taker in these matters, that is why we don't see eye to eye. Why don't you send a letter to DOJ and have the satisfaction of proving me wrong?

artherd
10-30-2005, 4:28 PM
You are much more of a risk taker in these matters, that is why we don't see eye to eye.
I can live with that. I suppose I see being a semi-auto gun owner in california at all as a 'risk taker' (ie, I have 10 round mags that hold 11. Paper felon right there for your .22LR.)

In the end, I belive in exercising every legal right entitled to me should I desire to do so. (and the second key is, have the funds to fight the legal battle.) Frankly, I thought that was what this forum was about.

Furthur, I feel a dis-service is done to the gun community every time an educated person makes a 'generalized safe interpretation' of what is and is-not legal. Rumor then begats 'old wives tale' which eventually begats 'fact'. Look at the insane status of C&R handguns for an example of what I am talking about (many will not ship C&R handguns into CA at all, simply because they are afraid.)

Why don't you send a letter to DOJ and have the satisfaction of proving me wrong?
I actually just did. I'll post it when it arrives, turn around with the DOJ has been in the 3 week range lately.

vega
10-30-2005, 4:51 PM
I actually just did. I'll post it when it arrives, turn around with the DOJ has been in the 3 week range lately.
You beat me to it, positive or negative reply, please send me a copy. I really appreciate people who tries to clear a grey area and not leave it that way.

vega

artherd
10-30-2005, 5:05 PM
You beat me to it, positive or negative reply, please send me a copy. I really appreciate people who tries to clear a grey area and not leave it that way.

vega
Vega- I will post the letter, but I encourage you to do the same, and get your own wet-ink reply from the DOJ just so you have that extra Cover-Your-arse level of protection. Remenber to address it to Tim Rigert via Certified Mail (Tim helps run the Firearms division, is good to work with, and is a Bar certified attorney.)

C.G.
10-30-2005, 7:03 PM
In the end, I belive in exercising every legal right entitled to me should I desire to do so. (and the second key is, have the funds to fight the legal battle.) Frankly, I thought that was what this forum was about.

quote]

Good on you that you have funds, not everybody does.

[QUOTE]
Furthur, I feel a dis-service is done to the gun community every time an educated person makes a 'generalized safe interpretation' of what is and is-not legal. Rumor then begats 'old wives tale' which eventually begats 'fact'. Look at the insane status of C&R handguns for an example of what I am talking about (many will not ship C&R handguns into CA at all, simply because they are afraid.)


Just as I feel a disservice is done to the gun community, especially to the newbies, when someone goes out on a limb and says that a grey is really not.

artherd
10-30-2005, 7:06 PM
Good on you that you have funds, not everybody does.
A real pity, the legal system should not be the near exclusive domain of the rich and powerful. Nor should a matter of clear settled law be 'grey' depending on one's finances. Sadly however, this is not the case.

Just as I feel a disservice is done to the gun community, especially to the newbies, when someone goes out on a limb and says that a grey is really not.
Correct, I belive we have a duty to inform and provide full disclosure. If you see me do otherwise, please stand up and say something.

C.G.
10-30-2005, 7:08 PM
A real pity, the legal system should not be the near exclusive domain of the rich and powerful. Nor should a matter of clear settled law be 'grey' depending on one's finances. Sadly however, this is not the case.


Correct, I belive we have a duty to inform and provide full disclosure. If you see me do otherwise, please stand up and say something.

How about that, we agree on something.:D

artherd
10-30-2005, 7:25 PM
How about that, we agree on something.:D
I'll take it :D I'm sure that if we met face to face we'd get along famously.

Best!
Ben.

C.G.
10-30-2005, 7:33 PM
I'll take it :D I'm sure that if we met face to face we'd get along famously.

Best!
Ben.

Cheers. :)

vega
10-31-2005, 6:48 PM
Vega- I will post the letter, but I encourage you to do the same, and get your own wet-ink reply from the DOJ just so you have that extra Cover-Your-arse level of protection. Remenber to address it to Tim Rigert via Certified Mail (Tim helps run the Firearms division, is good to work with, and is a Bar certified attorney.)
I used the email provided in the DOJ website, let's see first if they will have the same stance on this matter.

vega

Rascal
10-31-2005, 7:29 PM
Vega,
What you really need is a written letter and not an Email for questions like this. That way you will recieve a written letter from them.

vega
12-02-2005, 4:12 PM
For those who are interested to know, I got 2 emails from DOJ (Nov 17 and Dec 2) but I really have to explain further on what I plan to do. I will post all correspondence once I have the final mail.

I will do the letter once they finally get their act together.

vega

JS-M1A
12-02-2005, 5:27 PM
I have XD9 and I bought 40S&W mags. The law states if you modify the original mag and it won't take what it was intended for then you are breaking the law. I even have a letter from DOJ. I tweaked the lips a little but will still work for 40. I could jam 15 rounds of 9mm into 40 mags.

vega
PLease post the letter.
:)

artherd
12-02-2005, 6:06 PM
I have a Certified Letter pending (no reply yet) on this matter as well.

JS-M1A
12-02-2005, 6:48 PM
Canyon Sports doesnt sell XD9 mags, they only sell .40, when I asked why the old guy said "you figure it out"

The law is stupid and Im sure the DA would have no traction busting a guy with a .40 mag in a 9mm, as they are not marked ethier way and all say 10 rounds.
Xd magazines are marked with caliber and rds on the
floor plate of the magazine.You can spot a standard
capacity one right off by the lack of indentations on
the side of the mag.The 9rd 45gap mags also do not
have indentations.Like in this pic.
http://xd-hs2000.com/images/45gapmags.gif

vega
12-04-2005, 10:02 AM
PLease post the letter.
:)
The letter is posted in my earlier thread, I thought it came from the DOJ but it actually came from ATF. Just hit the back button.

vega