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Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 5:24 PM
I had an occassion to examine a firearm. It was an AR type. The rifle had complete full auto fire control system and drop in auto sear. And, OLL without magazine lock device. Of course it went full auto. I don't know the full circumstances of arrest/ confiscation of the firearm. But, the guy who had it will be in deep trouble for having a full auto firearm. The sear was the ones they sell in the Shotgun News for about $100.

I know some gun owners and home made gunsmiths want to experiment with their firearms to make it full auto. DO NOT!!! There is no place you can try to test fire it full auto safely without bringing some attention. In my honest opinion, it is not worth the trouble.

Full auto also will cost you a lot of money. When I was in FBI SWAT school, I fired most rounds in semi auto, because I can control and place the shots more accurately without losing too much time. Of course there are times you need to fire full auto, but then controlled burst fire is necessary, except when you have to bail out with your team.

Do not make your firearms full auto, and do not try to make a silencers.:eek: Don't get into trouble.

Stanze
03-10-2009, 5:28 PM
Was it a Doublestar lower? As far as I know they are the only ones with the "correct" rear shelf height to allow a DIAS.

I hear ya on not doing illegal activities. It's bad enough for us folks that stay legal with uninformed LE.;)

chokeyourself!
03-10-2009, 5:30 PM
I've done many things in Mojave desert that went unnoticed. But yeah having an illegally configured firearms at home is not worth it.

Turbinator
03-10-2009, 5:30 PM
Thanks for helping us confirm that those DIAS work - I was always curious about that. :)

Turby

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 5:33 PM
The receiver was not a Double Star. I also saw the device worked in other receivers. You are going to need full auto fire control system in order to make it work properly. So, do not keep those full auto parts in your rifle also.

B Strong
03-10-2009, 5:35 PM
Thanks for helping us confirm that those DIAS work - I was always curious about that. :)

Turby

That DIAS worked - lots of the ones that were for sale pre-86 were out-of-spec, some deliberately - hard to convict a guy for selling a "conversion kit" that wouldn't convert.

Topgun's advice is very good, and any "experimenters" would do very well to listen and learn.

Turbinator
03-10-2009, 5:35 PM
The receiver was not a Double Star. I also saw the device worked in other receivers. You are going to need full auto fire control system in order to make it work properly. So, do not keep those full auto parts in your rifle also.

Hmm. I thought the DIAS basically just helps you disconnect the disconnector each time the bolt carrier moves forward into battery. For as long as you have the trigger held down, the hammer will keep falling as the BC goes into battery. My impression is that it turns your AR into FA only, or controlled bursts if you can control the trigger.

Turby

Matt C
03-10-2009, 5:40 PM
There is no place you can try to test fire it full auto safely without bringing some attention. In my honest opinion, it is not worth the trouble.

FYI they don't know the difference between full auto and bumpfire.

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 5:51 PM
Hmm. I thought the DIAS basically just helps you disconnect the disconnector each time the bolt carrier moves forward into battery. For as long as you have the trigger held down, the hammer will keep falling as the BC goes into battery. My impression is that it turns your AR into FA only, or controlled bursts if you can control the trigger.

Turby

Full auto parts and the drop in auto sear will make your rifle capable of fire just like any select fire M-16's.

professorhard
03-10-2009, 6:01 PM
From what i've seen in the military M-16s the auto sear when engaged trips the hammer up for a very minute amount of time so that the bolt has time to fully enter battery before the hammer is released and hits the firing pin again and fires

DJMAN
03-10-2009, 6:02 PM
People on this forum don't do this. "We are Calguners" we know the difference. :thumbsup:

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 6:05 PM
People on this forum don't do this. "We are Calguners" we know the difference. :thumbsup:

I am glad to know that. I hope no one on Calguns violate the law. We will fight the right way. By voting power I hope.

B.D.Dubloon
03-10-2009, 6:12 PM
Is it legal to have the full auto parts but not install them? I am thinking of getting the full auto ak parts from GB for like 20 bucks, just in case it ever becomes legal or I go somewhere I can use them. I won;t though if it is verboten.

BDD

rkt88edmo
03-10-2009, 6:17 PM
Is it legal to have the full auto parts but not install them? I am thinking of getting the full auto ak parts from GB for like 20 bucks, just in case it ever becomes legal or I go somewhere I can use them. I won;t though if it is verboten.

BDD


Just add shoestring

ETA: do not make a full auto firearm - buy one with the proper paper.

SJgunguy24
03-10-2009, 6:18 PM
Is it legal to have the full auto parts but not install them? I am thinking of getting the full auto ak parts from GB for like 20 bucks, just in case it ever becomes legal or I go somewhere I can use them. I won;t though if it is verboten.

BDD

Be careful with that. Constructive possession is illegal by Federal law.

B.D.Dubloon
03-10-2009, 6:19 PM
Be careful with that. Constructive possession is illegal by Federal law.

Fair enough, won't do it then. I figured it wasn't legit so I didn't order them, but I wanted to. Thanks for the metal.

SJgunguy24
03-10-2009, 6:23 PM
Fair enough, won't do it then. I figured it wasn't legit so I didn't order them, but I wanted to. Thanks for the metal.

No problem, there is no state law but it is a federal no no.

pl408
03-10-2009, 6:45 PM
do not get anywhere near a dias its a big NO NO!!
just get yourself a rubberband

SJgunguy24
03-10-2009, 6:48 PM
do not get anywhere near a dias its a big NO NO!!
just get yourself a rubberband


Thats constructive possession in the feds eyes.

elrcastor
03-10-2009, 6:48 PM
do not get anywhere near a dias its a big NO NO!!
just get yourself a rubberband

except for a form 4 one.

bwiese
03-10-2009, 6:50 PM
No problem, there is no state law but it is a federal no no.

WRONG.

Machineguns, SBRs, SBSes and DDs are illegal under CA law as well as Federal law and these suites of laws generally track/echo each other fairly well.

And 'constructive possession' applies under both CA law and Fed law for these items: the only area it does NOT apply to is CA-defined AWs/50BMGs.

pl408
03-10-2009, 6:52 PM
Thats constructive possession in the feds eyes.

I thought anything outside of the trigger housing was ok

asheron2
03-10-2009, 6:54 PM
Hmm. I thought the DIAS basically just helps you disconnect the disconnector each time the bolt carrier moves forward into battery. For as long as you have the trigger held down, the hammer will keep falling as the BC goes into battery. My impression is that it turns your AR into FA only, or controlled bursts if you can control the trigger.

Turby

your thinking of a lighting link :chris:

SJgunguy24
03-10-2009, 6:56 PM
WRONG.

Machineguns, SBRs, SBSes and DDs are illegal under CA law as well as Federal law and these suites of laws generally track/echo each other fairly well.

And 'constructive possession' applies under both CA law and Fed law for these items: the only area it does NOT apply to is CA-defined AWs/50BMGs.

Bill i'm talking about parts, not the entire firearm.

badicedog
03-10-2009, 7:00 PM
those little parts, will summon a hellstorm and the black ninjas with the MP5s to traumatize you, your family and kids... Is that worth it? I hope not, spend 50 have your trigger worked on by bill springfield, it will feel so crisp and you can fire as fast as your fingers can handle or bumpfire...

916Plinker
03-10-2009, 7:00 PM
Thread seemed to steer off-track. What was the brand lower in question??

B Strong
03-10-2009, 7:07 PM
Bill i'm talking about parts, not the entire firearm.

Parts can constitute constructive possession even when a compatible firearm isn't present - a complete M2 kits is an MG, an open bolt for an Uzi that is slotted to fit a semi-auto receiver is an MG, etc.

One single suppressor part is considered a suppressor.

Don't fool with NFA weapons and devices unless you're in possession of a tax stamp and forms for the weapon or device in question.

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 7:10 PM
Thread seemed to steer off-track. What was the brand lower in question??

The case is on going and I cannot disclose the actual brand name, but it is one of the popular brands that is sold on "private firearms sale" forum quite often.

pro defensive greg
03-10-2009, 7:14 PM
the ca game of be very very afraid continues...

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 7:22 PM
the ca game of be very very afraid continues...

Vey common OLL, but M-16 Bolt carrier assembly, M-16 hammer, M-16 selector, M-16 disconnector and M-16 trigger with drop in auto sear. Bad combination. Now it becomes select fire M-16.....:eek:

ohsmily
03-10-2009, 7:31 PM
These threads are great and all (this is your third), but you just keep telling everyone not to commit crimes.......you are stating the obvious over and over. I mean c'mon "remember guys, don't try to make a machine gun." The people who are going to try this crap aren't going to heed your warning and everyone else already knows not to do it. Everyone knows it is illegal.

As to the stories about what you are working on, it is very interesting. I am sure most of us are interested in hearing about a lot of the stuff you are examing, but not as part of a finger waving lecture.

B Strong
03-10-2009, 7:39 PM
the ca game of be very very afraid continues...


Although Topgun is a Ca. LEO, his advice is good for all 50 states on this subject.

bohoki
03-10-2009, 7:41 PM
man its hard enough building a rifle so you dont get thrown in prison in california why make one that will get you thrown in the slammer in every state

SJgunguy24
03-10-2009, 7:52 PM
These threads are great and all (this is your third), but you just keep telling everyone not to commit crimes.......you are stating the obvious over and over. I mean c'mon "remember guys, don't try to make a machine gun." The people who are going to try this crap aren't going to heed your warning and everyone else already knows not to do it. Everyone knows it is illegal.

As to the stories about what you are working on, it is very interesting. I am sure most of us are interested in hearing about a lot of the stuff you are examing, but not as part of a finger waving lecture.

?????? WTF is that sound advice coming from ohsmily:p?????

If anbody is trying to build a MG and you have more than 100 posts on Calguns.........I'll sponsor the beatdown blanket party.

CavTrooper
03-10-2009, 7:57 PM
I wonder how many of these types of firearms never find there way into the evidence locker or mysteriously go missing!? :eek:;)

bplvr
03-10-2009, 9:29 PM
I am glad to know that. I hope no one on Calguns violate the law. We will fight the right way. By voting power I hope.

I'll second DJMAN on that. We at CGN are in a constant struggle to stay legal do to all the confusing laws, and help others do the same. We are a community united to preserve our rights of legal firearm ownership .I honestly believe that most LEO's know that we are on their side and that we are not the enemy. JMHO

homerm14
03-10-2009, 9:34 PM
FYI they don't know the difference between full auto and bumpfire.

Who doesn't?

beerup949
03-10-2009, 9:45 PM
those little parts, will summon a hellstorm and the black ninjas with the MP5s to traumatize you, your family and kids... Is that worth it? I hope not, spend 50 have your trigger worked on by bill springfield, it will feel so crisp and you can fire as fast as your fingers can handle or bumpfire...


Who is this guy?

devildog999
03-10-2009, 9:48 PM
Those are the people that give us a bad name

Iminocca
03-10-2009, 11:23 PM
If you just have to get that FA thrill, there are several ranges in Vegas that rent full autos. Safe, legal, and oh so much fun!

Just plain stupid to mess with that stuff at home...

After my wife (ex now) and I were married, we spent part of our honeymoon at the MG shoot in Knob Creek, KY. Dropped a lot of money at the rental range! If I ever get back there I'd love to try the flamethrower if they still have them...

slick_711
03-10-2009, 11:32 PM
These threads are great and all (this is your third), but you just keep telling everyone not to commit crimes.......you are stating the obvious over and over. I mean c'mon "remember guys, don't try to make a machine gun." The people who are going to try this crap aren't going to heed your warning and everyone else already knows not to do it. Everyone knows it is illegal.

As to the stories about what you are working on, it is very interesting. I am sure most of us are interested in hearing about a lot of the stuff you are examing, but not as part of a finger waving lecture.

+1

While the intent is appreciated, you are preaching to the choir.

ke6guj
03-10-2009, 11:41 PM
I hope not, spend 50 have your trigger worked on by bill springfield, it will feel so crisp and you can fire as fast as your fingers can handle or bumpfire...
Who is this guy?http://www.triggerwork.net/index.html

oaklander
03-11-2009, 12:01 AM
Let me be clear on what Bill said.

The BOTTOM LINE is that you can't have any full auto FCG parts, even if they are not in a gun. You can't own them, possess them, have control over them - nothing!

There are exceptions, but most of us don't qualify.

FEDUPWBS
03-11-2009, 12:03 AM
Let me be clear on what Bill said.

The BOTTOM LINE is that you can't have any full auto FCG parts, even if they are not in a gun. You can't own them, possess them, have control over them - nothing!

There are exceptions, but most of us don't qualify.

Oak, what are the exceptions?:43:

oaklander
03-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Oak, what are the exceptions?:43:

LOL, if you hold the gun sidewayz and shout "what set you from?" then it's OK.
















Not really. . .

*You* know the exceptions, you clever dog!

stormy_clothing
03-11-2009, 12:36 AM
it's weird how eagerly pro gunners seem to want to rehash the same gayness over and over. The laws are retarded - being a speaking toucan able to repeat them over and over again makes you no hero.

If you want to experience a full auto gun, find some place that has them like the machine gun store in Las Vegas for rent

you'll be amazed at how fast you can waste 30 dollars in 223 ammo on a paper target.

I thought it would be cool to shoot them since the first ever gun I shot when I was 4 was a full auto ar and remembered it to be some great thing, it wasnt.

My grouping sucked and it was lame. The only thing positive is that the target was Osama and I'm pretty sure I killed him. Which hangs in my garage warning all those who might steal my tools. Maybe a full auto large caliber weapon just to get the blood flowing.

But sitting in jail forever and owing 12 billion dollars to some half *** agency dedicated to raping me of my rights just doesnt seem worth the hassle.

And trust me, some goody two shoes jerkoff person or park ranger will find you, hunt you down for a piece of that ***, I mean fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA actually de-orbitted a satellite and struck you down just to catch you.

Which on the gun mentioned is like what 50 years and 1.25 million dollars in fines total

Philthy
03-11-2009, 3:26 AM
Let me be clear on what Bill said.

The BOTTOM LINE is that you can't have any full auto FCG parts, even if they are not in a gun. You can't own them, possess them, have control over them - nothing!

There are exceptions, but most of us don't qualify.

Hypo: Can you possess the FA FCG if you do not possess an AR? It sounds stupid, but that is the only exception I could think.

eijjie33
03-11-2009, 4:21 AM
:rofl2::rofl2:LOL, if you hold the gun sidewayz and shout "what set you from?" then it's OK.
















Not really. . .

*You* know the exceptions, you clever dog!

hitman13
03-11-2009, 6:33 AM
There is no place you can try to test fire it full auto safely without bringing some attention.

Not True! not saying it would be wise, just saying that it is not true!

JDoe
03-11-2009, 7:00 AM
Topgun7 please keep the warnings coming, I've never seen them before and I'm sure many new guys haven't seen them either.

The whiners and miscreants will carry on as usual but there are many of us that want to know. :thumbsup:

freakshow10mm
03-11-2009, 8:06 AM
Oak, what are the exceptions?:43:
Lucky SOBs that have paperwork. You gotta get yours.:thumbsup:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P3060274.jpg

geeknow
03-11-2009, 8:22 AM
These threads are great and all (this is your third), but you just keep telling everyone not to commit crimes.......you are stating the obvious over and over. I mean c'mon "remember guys, don't try to make a machine gun." The people who are going to try this crap aren't going to heed your warning and everyone else already knows not to do it. Everyone knows it is illegal.

As to the stories about what you are working on, it is very interesting. I am sure most of us are interested in hearing about a lot of the stuff you are examing, but not as part of a finger waving lecture.

Ohsmily,
Respectfully, i think you are missing what he is saying. We are getting the benefit of a behind the scenes peek through topgun that would never be possible in any other venue.

what you are reading as a lecture should be looked at more as technical advice.

Vin496
03-11-2009, 8:24 AM
Topgun7 please keep the warnings coming, I've never seen them before and I'm sure many new guys haven't seen them either.

The whiners and miscreants will carry on as usual but there are many of us that want to know. :thumbsup:

You were actually unaware that having/making you rifle full auto was illegal? Really?

In case you didn't know pointing your gun at a Cop isn't a good idea either.

Just warning you.

"THE MORE YOU KNOW" ding ding ding

SCMA-1
03-11-2009, 8:37 AM
These warnings should not be taken lightly! The political climate of Commiefornia has changed for the worst considerably over the last 25 or so years which has in turn adversely affected RKBA. Policy flows from the top down and when you look at the current political make up of both houses of the CA legislature, you can get a pretty clear picture of where we stand relative to 2A and fundamental rights in general.

There was a time when nobody cared about these issues and LE had more important matters to tend to. Now it has become a priority. Much of the Calguns membership were not involved in the gun scene back when there was no such hysteria surrounding AW's, FA's, etc. I remember back in the day these so called "assault weapons" were actually pretty cheap because nobody really wanted them. B&B, B&E, Beach Cities Armory, Specialty Products West, etc....remember those names? Remember the Great Western Gun Show? Heck, B&B used to have weekly sales posted in major newspapers for HK's, Valmet's, AK's, AR-15's, Galils, etc. You could buy an HK-91 for $420; an HK-94 for $450. Galil 223's ran around $550 while Valmets were dirt cheap; $299 for M-82 Bullpups, $359 for M-76FS and $499 for heavy barrel 308 M-78. PolyTech Ak's ran around $250 while cheaper brands could be had for as low as $150 per unit. Daewoo K1 and K2 for $189 and $225 respectively. You could buy any of these for "cash and carry" back then and private party sales didn't even require a 4473; heck, once I walked out of the Great Western with 3 "assault weapons"; no waiting period, fingerprints, registration. Ammo was bought by the case; 8 to 10 cents per round was the norm for Chinese imported and all sorts of surplus regardless of caliber. People would "experiment" at the numerous "designated shooting areas" in broad daylight; these were free, non-controlled public target shooting spots in the national forests where people would go to shoot their guns without having to pay for a range fee. Places like Texas Canyon, Kentucky Canyon, and Hunt Canyon were where gun enthusiasts would go for the day to enjoy target shooting without the expense and regulation of a paying public range.

All this is gone now; Commiefornia has become........well, exceedingly Communist.:( Has the state become more safe with all this nonsense legislation? Absolutely not! Actually the state has become considerably less safe for one minority group as a result of all the new laws and they are gun owners. Certainly these gun laws are wrong-minded and even unconstitutional but they ARE the law; don't fall victim to them unwittingly. Gun arrests and prosecutions have risen to an overzealous pitch in Commiefornia; be knowledgeable and compliant with the laws but push the line at your own risk!

stay safe....

SCMA-1

gvazquez
03-11-2009, 9:32 AM
is it legal to have just the M-16 Bolt carrier assembly, M-16 hammer, M-16 selector, M-16 disconnector and M-16 trigger BUT WITHOUT the DIAS? and another question... almost all issued service rifles (m16s) I've seen do not have full auto only burst ( 3 round), is this what you are reffering to by selective fire? and would a DIAS put in one of those m16's with only burst convert it to full auto? could come in handy in Iraq or Afghanistan :43:

PIRATE14
03-11-2009, 9:51 AM
is it legal to have just the M-16 Bolt carrier assembly, M-16 hammer, M-16 selector, M-16 disconnector and M-16 trigger BUT WITHOUT the DIAS? and another question... almost all issued service rifles (m16s) I've seen do not have full auto only burst ( 3 round), is this what you are reffering to by selective fire? and would a DIAS put in one of those m16's with only burst convert it to full auto? could come in handy in Iraq or Afghanistan :43:

Do not have these parts in your possession....

SgtDinosaur
03-11-2009, 9:58 AM
For some reason I have no interest in owning anything full auto. I do wish it was legal to have 3 shot burst capability, though. But I can happily live without it if I have to. I suppose there are rare situations where a SAW would come in handy, but I have never been in one.

gvazquez
03-11-2009, 10:01 AM
ok.. so what parts are legal then? because from what I've read full auto BCG in AR is perfectly legal since it does nothing to the firing capabilities. so what other m16 parts could you have on that would still keep the rifle semi auto and legal? :confused:

Seesm
03-11-2009, 11:43 AM
SO what your saying is full auto is BAD? I am kidding of course as we all do or SHOULD know full auto or even 3 round burst is BAD! (In California anyway)

But I do however believe full auto is no big deal and in our 2a rights it does not say just 1 pull for every shot fired does it? NO it does not..

EVERYTHING I own legally configured but I do think we should be able to have what we want when we want it's America don't ya know?... (IF your a LEGAL gun owner that is and stricter laws for bad guys maybe?)

BTW if I had full auto capabilities I could not afford to shoot it now anyway!!

In my .22 I would think it very cool just well... cuz it would be cool. :)

bohoki
03-11-2009, 12:02 PM
Who doesn't?

normally bumpfire sounds like an increaseing or decreasing frequency followed by swearing and excessive manual bolt manipulation

M1A Rifleman
03-11-2009, 12:10 PM
Hmm, I thought the drop-in auto sears were the restricted parts requiring class 3 and tax stamp.

mdouglas1980
03-11-2009, 12:12 PM
This is kinda still on topic here but, Does anyone know the cost in involved in getting a Class 3 weapons license to have full auto weapons? I know that CA doesn't issue them but you can have them in AZ, OR, & NV. Practically all the states that border ours. I'm sure it is expensive and the "no knock" from the ATF as well would be interesting.

ke6guj
03-11-2009, 12:21 PM
Hmm, I thought the drop-in auto sears were the restricted parts requiring class 3 and tax stamp.yes, DIAS's are a controlled part, and you would need to buy a registered DIAS on a Form 4 to be legal. If you were in a free state, plan on spending $10,000 +/- (don't know the current market price) for one.

ke6guj
03-11-2009, 12:25 PM
This is kinda still on topic here but, Does anyone know the cost in involved in getting a Class 3 weapons license to have full auto weapons? I know that CA doesn't issue them but you can have them in AZ, OR, & NV. Practically all the states that border ours. I'm sure it is expensive and the "no knock" from the ATF as well would be interesting.

There is no "class 3" license to own a NFA firearm. You just have to be legally allowed to possess it and pay the $200 for the tax stamp. That's it, and no, you don't give up your 4th amendments right when you get a tax stamp.

Now, if you want to be a NFA dealer, then you have to get your 01FFL and spend an additional $500/$1000 per year for the 03 SOT (special occupational taxpayer). Thats it on the federal side, additional stuff on the state side as well.

mdouglas1980
03-11-2009, 12:31 PM
There is no "class 3" license to own a NFA firearm. You just have to be legally allowed to possess it and pay the $200 for the tax stamp. That's it, and no, you don't give up your 4th amendments right when you get a tax stamp.

Now, if you want to be a NFA dealer, then you have to get your 01FFL and spend an additional $500/$1000 per year for the 03 SOT (special occupational taxpayer). Thats it on the federal side, additional stuff on the state side as well.


cool thanks for the clarification :thumbsup:

freakshow10mm
03-11-2009, 12:38 PM
I am a Class 2 manufacturer, meaning I can make NFA weapons including suppressors and machine guns at will. The machine gun I posted in the pic above I made on Sunday because I was bored. I filed a Form 2 which tells the ATF's NFA branch in WV that I have made an NFA weapon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P3080279.jpg

A dealer's FFL will run $200 and the dealer only SOT status to deal in NFA weapons is $500 yearly.

A manufacturer's FFL will run $150 and the manufacturer (which also allows dealing) of NFA weapons runs $1,000 yearly or $500 yearly (gross receipts under $500K). As a manufacturer, like myself, you also have to register with the US State department under ITAR. This yearly fee is $2250 and is required even if you don't export.

Here is the Yankee Hill .45 Cobra suppressor that just arrived a half hour ago.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P3080280.jpg

RDIAS run $4-6K right now. Lightning Links run a bit cheaper.

If you possess parts that enable the weapon to fire on full auto, without the proper paperwork, you are in violation of the law. The bolt carrier doesn't have anything to do with the firing operation. The fire control group parts do. I could not recommend an M16 trigger, selector, disconnector or hammer in your AR15 semi auto lower, as it could produce full auto fire even if one component is in an otherwise semi auto group.

The sear in the MG pic above requires permanent modifications to the receiver. Once that hole is drilled into the receiver it is a machine gun. I got this receiver from a local gun shop last fall and drilled it for the auto sear.

I will make some DIAS that require no mods to the weapon. Drop it in below the rear takedown pin and fire away.

Here's some pics from quarterbore showing the difference.
DIAS
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/dias_colt.jpg
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/JCBDIAS_01.JPG

Lightning Link
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/nfalightninglink-01.jpg

Auto sear
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/m16_lower.jpg

bwiese
03-11-2009, 1:30 PM
I am a Class 2 manufacturer, meaning I can make NFA weapons
including suppressors and machine guns at will. The machinegun
I posted in the pic above I made on Sunday because I was bored.


I love the way you wrote that.

oaklander
03-11-2009, 1:40 PM
I don't think that exception works in California.

Hypo: Can you possess the FA FCG if you do not possess an AR? It sounds stupid, but that is the only exception I could think.

12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code.

m24armorer
03-11-2009, 6:05 PM
:lurk5:

Jonathan Doe
03-11-2009, 6:41 PM
I have a duty and responsibility to calssify the firearms properly when they come across my office. A lot of guns come in with a lot of questions. Mac's with disconnector disabled, AKs with disconnector modified or additional parts installed for full auto, AR's with similar situation. I do my best to keep them properly classified. I guess most of the people are very clear on the subject matters,but some don't know a lot about it. That is why I posted these threads. I never intended to offend anyone.

Californio
03-11-2009, 7:51 PM
I have a duty and responsibility to calssify the firearms properly when they come across my office. A lot of guns come in with a lot of questions. Mac's with disconnector disabled, AKs with disconnector modified or additional parts installed for full auto, AR's with similar situation. I do my best to keep them properly classified. I guess most of the people are very clear on the subject matters,but some don't know a lot about it. That is why I posted these threads. I never intended to offend anyone.

I enjoy your postings. Some the immature egocentric kids around here, looking at the world through an abdominal window, feel it's their duty to thread crap, appoint themselves as hall monitors of the SP (Spelling Police) etc., really don't add much to the conversation. It must be great to be a know it all. I myself like to see what is on the streets and learn from those on the inside. Please continue.

freakshow10mm
03-11-2009, 8:07 PM
I don't think that exception works in California.

EDIT: I misread that and thought it was about full auto bolt carriers, that is why I posted the below. Possession of a full auto fire control group is considered a machine gun.

A full auto bolt carrier in no way, shape, or form alters the weapon to fire automatically (full auto) if you have semi auto trigger group installed. There are a ton of AR makers that only use full auto carriers and they ship them to CA.

Skip to about 6:30 to learn how an M16 auto sear works. The weapon fires, the BC moves rearward and recocks the hammer. The auto sear tail holds the hammer cocked until the BC's shoulder hits the auto sear and releases the hammer. This goes on as long as you don't release the trigger or until the ammunition supply is exhausted. The full auto bolt carrier has a shoulder on the lower portion of it. If there is no auto sear to hit and no selector to hold off the disconnector, then full auto cannot occur.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ui288P4pGU&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=E3ADFA488DF34D2E&playnext=1&index=32

Jonathan Doe
03-11-2009, 8:12 PM
I have one of those chrome plated bolt carrier with engraving "NM" on it. I bought as a National Match part.

freakshow10mm
03-11-2009, 8:16 PM
National Match BCG are usually full auto carriers as in precision weapons their additional weight is ideal.

trinydex
03-12-2009, 10:08 AM
I had an occassion to examine a firearm. It was an AR type. The rifle had complete full auto fire control system and drop in auto sear. And, OLL without magazine lock device. Of course it went full auto. I don't know the full circumstances of arrest/ confiscation of the firearm. But, the guy who had it will be in deep trouble for having a full auto firearm. The sear was the ones they sell in the Shotgun News for about $100.

I know some gun owners and home made gunsmiths want to experiment with their firearms to make it full auto. DO NOT!!! There is no place you can try to test fire it full auto safely without bringing some attention. In my honest opinion, it is not worth the trouble.

Full auto also will cost you a lot of money. When I was in FBI SWAT school, I fired most rounds in semi auto, because I can control and place the shots more accurately without losing too much time. Of course there are times you need to fire full auto, but then controlled burst fire is necessary, except when you have to bail out with your team.

Do not make your firearms full auto, and do not try to make a silencers.:eek: Don't get into trouble.

how was fbi swat school?

freakshow10mm
03-12-2009, 11:37 AM
These pics are for FEDUPWBS. He wanted to see the MG with Beta mag and the MG with suppressor mounted.;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P3060270.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P3060271.jpg

Rob454
03-12-2009, 3:06 PM
IThere is no place you can try to test fire it full auto safely without bringing some attention. In my honest opinion, it is not worth the trouble.

. Of course there are times you need to fire full auto, but then controlled burst fire is necessary, except when you have to bail out with your team.

.


There are plenty of places where you can fire fully auto and nobody will ever know. Other than that I cant think of any time when i NEEDED a fully automatic rifle as a civilian.

BTW i agree with your post except for the part where there is no place to fire one.

freakshow10mm
03-12-2009, 3:11 PM
Can't think I've NEEDED the right to free speech, but it's nice to have.

It's called the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs.

stormy_clothing
03-12-2009, 5:25 PM
The only thing I really wish I could legally own is a suppressor for my g21 glock like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/P3080280.jpg

not a big deal but I would spend the money to have a nice one if I could.

Jonathan Doe
03-12-2009, 5:31 PM
Believe it or not, I see fair amount of silencers come through my office also. I have seen some real nice home made ones in the past. I think the guy knew what to do and how to do it.

GhillieGuy
06-25-2009, 12:20 AM
Also, is it even worth traveling with in your automobile? I can't seem to figure out what goes through peoples heads that do it. Of course 99% of the people here would love to shoot/own/make a full auto, but 99.9999% of us don't becuase of the risk involved. Plus, this just makes another great reason to go to vegas and rent a FA at that range. :D

GhillieGuy
06-25-2009, 12:25 AM
Believe it or not, I see fair amount of silencers come through my office also. I have seen some real nice home made ones in the past. I think the guy knew what to do and how to do it.

Sorry, I know I'm bringing up a dead thread! With the issue with silencers, what is the need? Unless you plan on commiting a crime there is no need what-so-ever to own a silencer. Yea, they're fun, but how much fun can a "poof" be?! The only convieniance would be no need to wear ear-muffs. But a $700 dollar can and a tax stamp wouldn't be worth it to me (if i lived in another state).

Seesm
06-25-2009, 12:42 AM
I woudl like to have a silencer to be able to shoot more on my property without pissing off the neighbors....

Stanze
06-25-2009, 1:40 AM
Sorry, I know I'm bringing up a dead thread! With the issue with silencers, what is the need? Unless you plan on commiting a crime there is no need what-so-ever to own a silencer. Yea, they're fun, but how much fun can a "poof" be?! The only convieniance would be no need to wear ear-muffs. But a $700 dollar can and a tax stamp wouldn't be worth it to me (if i lived in another state).

It's called the "Bill of Rights", not the "Bill of Needs". The only reason we can't have suppressors is because we are oppressed in this Police state by freedom hating bill writers, bill signers and the people who elect and support them. Yes, Free(er) America can legally own suppressors after all the red-tape and taxes, but at least they can do so.

Your anti-gun logic (Yes, NFA items are a 2nd amendment issue) on a pro-gun forum astounds me.

Maser
06-25-2009, 2:13 AM
Believe it or not, suppressors were added to the NFA list due to them being abused by poachers and NOT by Mafia style assassins you see portrayed in movies. And of course on the issue of FAs, SBSs, SBRs, and AOWs, they are on the list because BATF classes them as "non-sporting firearms". Really annoys me that they have the nerve to tell us what is sporting and what isn't. I've been to a few MG shoots in AZ and my uncle's ranch in NV and I can tell you there is PLENTY of sporty ways to use them. They are NOT evil like the Government wants you to believe.

I for one am not into the whole FA scene. IMHO, other than being fun, they don't appeal to me and are WAY too expensive to feed. If I have a semi auto centerfire firearm in my paws and I am in the mood to have it shoot FA, I am not going to be dumb enough and modify it to shoot FA and not only spend a good amount of time in jail, but also potentially ruin the firearm so it doesn't shoot anymore. It's just not worth it. Fun to me is not worth spending 15 years in prison. If I was FA fun, I can easily bump fire the gun and that's pretty much virtual FA firing. Of course I don't recommend doing it unless you practice first with it and DO NOT bump fire a semi auto handgun. It's too dangerous.

packnrat
06-25-2009, 5:37 AM
I see no problem for any one to own a fa rifle/pistol, if you can afford to feed it it should be go for it.

I would love to own a .50bmg machine gun,
I just would have to save up all year to shoot it for sixety seconds.
As for mufflers for a gun, that would be perfect here, I could build up a hunting round or a good plinking round and not bug people with in a mile. ( leagle to shoot in this county if your prop is more than 5 acres).

But this is Ca, so have to load up and go else were to test fire, just to keep the peace.

.

Jonathan Doe
06-25-2009, 5:56 AM
My partner is working one a case which a Glock pistol has a full auto control device and functions prefectly. Actually, the control looks better than the factory Glock 18. I guess the guy will be in big trouble.

AJAX22
06-25-2009, 6:27 AM
My partner is working one a case which a Glock pistol has a full auto control device and functions prefectly. Actually, the control looks better than the factory Glock 18. I guess the guy will be in big trouble.

A number of those conversion devices are actually coming in from Europe these days. (you can usually tell where the device is from based on the details of how it was made)

I'm actually surprised that you don't run across more of them what with the ready availability overseas, the low cost and the reliable function.

The conversion component is unregulated in most countries. (as are silencers in much of the world)

As the economy continues to get worse I suspect you'll see an increase in the amount of suppressors that cross your desk. Most of the ones produced domestically (for black market sale) come out of machine/auto shops which are hard up for work and looking to make anything they can sell to make a little extra money.

Typically the risk/reward isn't there for these kind of things, but as skilled machinists get more desperate, the reward will probably look increasingly better.

B Strong
06-25-2009, 7:05 AM
Sorry, I know I'm bringing up a dead thread! With the issue with silencers, what is the need? Unless you plan on commiting a crime there is no need what-so-ever to own a silencer. Yea, they're fun, but how much fun can a "poof" be?! The only convieniance would be no need to wear ear-muffs. But a $700 dollar can and a tax stamp wouldn't be worth it to me (if i lived in another state).

Having significant hearing damage myself from a life time of shooting, my opinion is that suppressors should be available as health and safety devices.

And contrary to popular fiction, cans don't make crime easier. You're not going to pull a drive by with a can and not attract attention, and you can't fire one off in a crowded place without notice either.

B Strong
06-25-2009, 7:07 AM
My partner is working one a case which a Glock pistol has a full auto control device and functions prefectly. Actually, the control looks better than the factory Glock 18. I guess the guy will be in big trouble.

There was a guy marketing them out of Argentina on another gun site years back, and they banned him rfn.

If the one you're examining has the selector on the back plate, it could be one of his.

Jonathan Doe
06-25-2009, 7:09 AM
The "silencer" does not silence the sound of the gun shot. There is not "silent" gun even with the "silencer". It suppresses much like a flash suppressor that reduces the flash.

mydogsmonkey
06-25-2009, 8:33 AM
yeah i for one would really enjoy using a supressor especially when i'm out at the desert and shooting, no hearing protection would be awesome

nick
06-25-2009, 10:06 AM
Having significant hearing damage myself from a life time of shooting, my opinion is that suppressors should be available as health and safety devices.

And contrary to popular fiction, cans don't make crime easier. You're not going to pull a drive by with a can and not attract attention, and you can't fire one off in a crowded place without notice either.

+1. Movies make for poor education :)

AJAX22
06-25-2009, 12:10 PM
I disagree with Bstrong on one point... You can fire off a single round just about anywhere (including crowded public places) and no one will notice.

No one gets up out of their easy chair for just one bang.... someone may glance up, or look around... but if there is no second loud sound or something to grab and hold their attention, they basically just go on with their business.

when I was young (and very very dumb) I tested this theory with a starter pistol... its amazing how apathetic our society is with regard to a lot of things.

WHenderson
06-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Hmm. I thought the DIAS basically just helps you disconnect the disconnector each time the bolt carrier moves forward into battery. For as long as you have the trigger held down, the hammer will keep falling as the BC goes into battery. My impression is that it turns your AR into FA only, or controlled bursts if you can control the trigger.

Turby

A DIAS has no interaction with the disconnector.
The DIAS catches the hammer every cycle and holds it until the bolt carrier trips the DIAS and releases the hammer. The bolt carrier trips it just as it goes into battery.
As long as you hold the trigger (with an M16 fire control group and a DIAS) the hammer will keep falling, to be caught by the DIAS, when again, it's tripped by the bolt carrier and releases the hammer.
The addition of a DIAS and M16 fire control parts produces select fire. You can select semi or full automatic.
The addition of a DIAS to a regular AR-15 will do absolutely nothing.
Adding an M-16 fire control group, and a DIAS to an AR-15 is a hit and miss possibility (to get the intended result). Not all parts work in all guns.


is it legal to have just the M-16 Bolt carrier assembly, M-16 hammer, M-16 selector, M-16 disconnector and M-16 trigger BUT WITHOUT the DIAS? and another question... almost all issued service rifles (m16s) I've seen do not have full auto only burst ( 3 round), is this what you are reffering to by selective fire? and would a DIAS put in one of those m16's with only burst convert it to full auto? could come in handy in Iraq or Afghanistan :43:

Select fire is the ability to select between semi-automatic and full automatic fire. A three round burst is considered full automatic.
You could not put a DIAS (drop in auto sear) in an M-16, it already has an auto sear. The internal cavity of an M-16 is milled differently than an AR-15, a DIAS wouldn't fit in any case. An M-16 with a burst capability has a slightly different fire control group than a M-16 without burst. To convert the burst to full auto you need to replace the fire control group. Another fire control group for M-16's is a 4 position selector fire control group producing safe, semi, full, and burst. There are known engineering and functional defects with the 3 round burst and 4 position fire control groups.

Turby: Your statement is absolutely correct for a known DIAS device for the AR-10. It uses a long arm, to release the disconnector with each cycle. The AR-10 DIAS (the one I saw pictures of, there's probably more) does not require a change of the fire control group. And it does make the rifle full auto only while it's in the receiver, even set on semi. There is no such similar "drop in" device I know of for the AR-15. Although it is how the Lightning Link works in an AR-15, it trips the disconnector with the bolt carrier at full battery. Most but not all Lightning Link rifles are full automatic only (unless customized to select fire).

Californio
06-25-2009, 1:32 PM
The "silencer" does not silence the sound of the gun shot. There is not "silent" gun even with the "silencer". It suppresses much like a flash suppressor that reduces the flash.

I saw a show were New Orleans SWAT goes around at night and shoots Nutria with suppressed .22's without spooking the public, very useful in varmint eradication in the city.

http://www.nutria.com/site.php

Many CA counties do not allow poison control of ground squirrels because of the second kill effect of the poison. It is too bad State Law does not allow an exemption for varmint eradication. The damage to my families property from ground squirrels is massive and the property is in one of the counties that does not allow poison, air guns just don't do the job.

Moto4Fun
06-26-2009, 9:57 AM
Are there ranges in Vegas that let you handle the full auto weapon outside of shouldering it and pointing the trigger? The term "rent" seems very deceiving relative to my experience. I "rented" an MP5 at a range and thought I would have a little time to fondle the gun and play with the controls a little bit. Once I signed the waiver, my "handler" grabbed 2 pre loaded mags and the gun and took me into the range. He loaded it, cycled the bolt, put the selector on full auto and handed it over. He then let me fire off the first mag while keeping his hand on my shoulder. Once I finished the mag he grabbed the gun changed mags and handed it back to me. When I finished that one, he took the gun and reeled in my target, made some slight compliment about my group and hustled me out of there. I felt raped. I wanted to load the magazines, I wanted to change them, I wanted to have the ability to buy another box of ammo and shoot it some more. But it was not like that at all. It was like a $50 carnival game.

Are there ranges that will actually rent you the gun and let you spend some time getting to know it?

Is it possible for California ranges to rent FA rifles and sub-machine guns? If they were more available to rent and shoot in a controlled environment, I would spend the money to shoot them.

sandsnow
06-26-2009, 3:58 PM
[QUOTE=Moto4Fun;2689623]

Are there ranges that will actually rent you the gun and let you spend some time getting to know it?

QUOTE]

I know exactly what you mean, but I don't have any current info.

One of the shops in Vegas was cool about it. I got to insert the mag into the M3 grease gun, cycle it and blast away. I think it was The Gun Store. That was back in the '90s.

When SOF was there at the Desert Sportsmen Range, there was a guy who rented FA's. I got to load the individual rounds into a cloth belt using a hand crank machine. again back in the 90s.

In both cases I spoke up before I handed over my money on exactly what I wanted to do.

Give those that rent FA's a call and ask them.