Open Carry - Hold Your Horses

[Liberty1]

If you've done any reading here you'll know that I'm not one to discourage UOC.

But those whom I do wish to give pause to are any noobs just considering this self defense and activist option.

Be sure to read up at californiaopencarry.org (californiaopencarry.org)and I mean everything. Study and know the actual penal code sections and discuss your OC aspirations and questions here and at OCDO.

The law and case laws are vast and there are still many LEOs who are not fully trained or aware of the memos. What I wish to avoid, is what I call "Darwin Arrests" of individuals who have not done all that they could in preparation for a UOC event/outing to help make it successful and uneventfully.

Ask yourself can you post at least $5000 for bail (that would be the 10% for the bail bondsman) and another $5000 for an attorney's retainer (even for a false arrest)?

CA is not yet in the position legally where you can just strap on and walk the dog without risk. Evaluate your risk and take steps to minimize it. Copy other successful UOC events.

And at a minimum:

*have a recording device and USE IT! (batteries must be NEW!)
*know the laws and carry the brochures
*use the buddy system and have friendly witnesses
*and always be polite but firm in your understanding that you are engaged in NO CRIME and know your rights and how to articulate them intelligently

What is going to happen in the courts regarding the 2nd A. may already be ordained and may not positively be effected by what we do here before incorporation. But what we here are most certainly engaged in is a battle for the hearts and minds of the public on this a very devisive issue for CA. Always keep that in mind with any OC events.

Our CA Open Carry pioneers are making me and our Calguns brothers and sisters very proud! Be Smart, be Safe and Carry On!




And if you haven't seen the thread or haven't donated yet, please help Theseus' false school zone charge - Open Carry Legal Defense Fund by making a donation today! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150893)




.

[eflatminor]

Good advice, which I am currently following.

One other point to consider. Have the bail money ready IN CASH, if you can. Also, have a lawyer ready-to-go BEFORE you UOC and make sure you've either memorized that attorney's phone number or someone you trust has it and will make the call if you're arrested. Lastly, you might consider "arming" your non-UOC buddy with a video camera. Nothing like a friend filming the shake down, should it occur.

That's how I walk my dog!

[Liberty1]

Good advice, which I am currently following.

One other point to consider. Have the bail money ready IN CASH, if you can. Also, have a lawyer ready-to-go BEFORE you UOC and make sure you've either memorized that attorney's phone number or someone you trust has it and will make the call if you're arrested. Lastly, you might consider "arming" your non-UOC buddy with a video camera. Nothing like a friend filming the shake down, should it occur.

That's how I walk my dog!

You strap a video camera on your dog? ;)

[fairfaxjim]

Good advice, which I am currently following.

One other point to consider. Have the bail money ready IN CASH, if you can. Also, have a lawyer ready-to-go BEFORE you UOC and make sure you've either memorized that attorney's phone number or someone you trust has it and will make the call if you're arrested. Lastly, you might consider "arming" your non-UOC buddy with a video camera. Nothing like a friend filming the shake down, should it occur.

That's how I walk my dog!

"May it please the court, we would like to submit and mark as defense exhibit #1, Mr. Eflatminor's DOGCAM video tape of the incident in question." :D

[pullnshoot25]

"May it please the court, we would like to submit and mark as defense exhibit #1, Mr. Eflatminor's DOGCAM video tape of the incident in question." :D

That isn't a bad idea, actually. I can train a dog to heel perfectly with anyone and carry the camera on its back.

[jlh95811]

"May it please the court, we would like to submit and mark as defense exhibit #1, Mr. Eflatminor's DOGCAM video tape of the incident in question." :D

All we see is butt and feet sir. This in no way helps your case.

Thanks OP. We really do need to be on our P's and Q's.

But: I'm a little weary of having a guy with a video camera walking around filming a guy with a gun. They may think you are about to document your "vengence upon mankinds' wrongdoing" or something to that affect.

[big jon]

sorry I had to do it.















http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/jhunter63/hpim0827.jpg

[tyrist]

Just remember no metropolitian areas because you will be too close to a school

[eflatminor]

jlh, you raise and interesting point. For the record, it's my lady friend with the video camera...though Lucy the dog might actually like a dogcam. At any rate, the video is just a back up she would pull out if necessary.

Regarding urban areas, I'm lucky in that regard. There are no schools in the section of downtown LA where I live; it's all industrial, where many films and commercials are shot.

[Liberty1]

sorry I had to do it.















http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/jhunter63/hpim0827.jpg

but where is the open carry? :p

[jlh95811]

jlh, you raise and interesting point. For the record, it's my lady friend with the video camera...though Lucy the dog might actually like a dogcam. At any rate, the video is just a back up she would pull out if necessary.

Regarding urban areas, I'm lucky in that regard. There are no schools in the section of downtown LA where I live; it's all industrial, where many films and commercials are shot.

I can see it now. "Sir, put your hands where we can see them!"
She whips out a video camera; "GUN!" pop pop pop pop.

I hope you don't believe in Jynx's cause I mean no ill intent. Just kidding around. But seriously. Some police are very jumpy and folks have been shot for wielding cellphones.

[jlh95811]

but where is the open carry? :p

He's holding his horse.

[tyrist]

jlh, you raise and interesting point. For the record, it's my lady friend with the video camera...though Lucy the dog might actually like a dogcam. At any rate, the video is just a back up she would pull out if necessary.

Regarding urban areas, I'm lucky in that regard. There are no schools in the section of downtown LA where I live; it's all industrial, where many films and commercials are shot.

I can tell you that you are very wrong. Schools are everywhere.

[ANDREWMENDEZ]

A bunch of SoCal Departments have been issuing letters, since the OPEN CARRY SAN DIEGO, a couple weeks back! They are becoming well aware that it is, Indeed legal, and are aware that we are ready to sue!!!

[Liberty1]

A bunch of SoCal Departments have been issuing letters, since the OPEN CARRY SAN DIEGO, a couple weeks back! They are becoming well aware that it is, Indeed legal, and are aware that we are ready to sue!!!

Can you get some of those letters pretty please with sugar on top and send them to Bweise?

I don't know how ready to sue anyone is. Rights have been violated all over the state in just about every encounter (some worse then others) and I only know of one suit in the early planning stages.

But if a threat of a suit and knowledge that we record the detentions keeps everyone legal it then protects their liability as well as us constitutionally and that is all any OCers wants. No Larry H. Parkers here...

[pullnshoot25]

A bunch of SoCal Departments have been issuing letters, since the OPEN CARRY SAN DIEGO, a couple weeks back! They are becoming well aware that it is, Indeed legal, and are aware that we are ready to sue!!!

Dude, don't tease and not please, POST THOSE PUPPIES!

[pullnshoot25]

but where is the open carry? :p

Saddle scabbard!

[eflatminor]

tyrist, remember that I'm just walking my dog. Same route we always take. There are definately no schools on that route.

[tyrist]

tyrist, remember that I'm just walking my dog. Same route we always take. There are definately no schools on that route.

Downtown LA has so many schools there is no way you can be in downtown la without being within 1000 feet.

[Liberty1]

Downtown LA has so many schools there is no way you can be in downtown la without being within 1000 feet.

I guess he is not "knowingly within" then. I think I know where he lives and it's not quite downtown downtown if you know what I mean.

[ANDREWMENDEZ]

Dude, don't tease and not please, POST THOSE PUPPIES!

As requested.....
I cant take the credit though!!
Originally Posted by hoffmang!

OPENLY CARRIED FIREARMS

Scenario:
You respond to a "Man with a gun" call at a local shopping mall. You locate the suspect walking through the mall. He is armed with a handgun carried in a belt holster. You detain the individual and determine that the handgun is unloaded. The subject has two fully loaded, highcapacity magazines for the weapon in his pocket. The subject explains that he is a believer in the Second Amendment and is carrying the weapon because he has a right to do so. What are your options as the handling deputy?

Discussion:
Earlier this year, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller (128 S.Ct 2783) that the Second Amendment provided an individual right for persons to "keep and bear arms". Just as the right to free speech does not include the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, the Heller decision recognized reasonable limits on the exercise of that right. Prior to the Heller decision, case law in the 9th Federal Circuit (including California) held that the Second Amendment did not apply to individuals. In many respects, Heller is a landmark case. When a landmark decision is made, the Supreme Court does not decide all questions relating to the issue. It rules on the primary question, and then leaves it to lower courts to define the limits of the ruling through subsequent cases. Heller does not appear to impact any of California's weapons laws, but it does expose those laws to new challenge.

We have seen recent evidence of various gun rights advocacy groups attempting to raise those challenges. In several recent events, law enforcement officers have been presented with situations similar to the one above. Some of these events were audio recorded (and possibly video-recorded as well). It appears that the subjects were attempting to lure the officers into taking unfounded enforcement efforts to bring attention to their cause and/or to form the basis for court action.

This is also occurring at a time when law enforcement has been presented with several tragic events involving "active shooters". This presents a significant challenge to responding deputies. It is difficult to determine the intent of an armed person. If deputies casually approach an armed individual who proves to be an "active shooter", the consequences can be tragic for the deputy and public. On the other hand, appropriate officer safety measures in contacting armed persons may seem excessive to those who believe they are only securing a constitutional right.

We are not aware of any instances involving armed persons where the proper use of officer safety measures has produced liability for the agency or officer/deputy. Penal Code §12031(e) provides you with the authority to inspect any firearm carried in public to determine if it is loaded. Refusal to submit to an inspection is cause to arrest for a violation of §12031. This is an inspection authority and no probable cause is required to conduct an inspection. It should be noted that the purpose of this inspection is limited to a determination of whether or not the weapon is loaded.

You have the ability to run a records check of the weapon's serial number if it is visible to you during the course of the weapon inspection. Considerable case law holds that you are not required to "close your eyes" to things you observe during the lawful performance of your duties. Your authority to detain the subject while conducting the 12031(e) inspection is limited.

Once it is established that the weapon is being lawfully carried, and there are no other circumstances justifying the detention of the subject, the detention must end. As a general rule, with some exceptions discussed below, it is not illegal to carry an unloaded firearm in a public place. Here is a partial listing of circumstances where the simple possession of an unloaded firearm, in public, is prohibited:

• Within 1,500 feet of a public or private school (grades K-12) (626.9 PC). (Note: specific exceptions exist for residences, and for the transportation of firearms within containers.)

• Upon the grounds of a university or college (626.9 PC)

• By persons with felony convictions or by drug addicts (12021(a)(1) PC)

• By persons with specified misdemeanor convictions (12021(a)(2) +12021(c)(1) PC) (Note: The specified crimes are primarily assaults, batteries, domestic violence and weapons violations.)

• In connection with street gang activity (12021.5 PC)

• With the intent of committing a felony (12023 PC)

• While wearing a mask to conceal identity (12040 PC)

• Possession of a concealable firearm by a minor (12101 PC)

• By persons adjudicated with mental disorders under specified conditions (8103(a)(1) WIC)

• By persons who have been detained under 5150 WIC as a danger to self or others within the preceding five years. (8103(f)(1) WIC)

When is a firearm considered "Loaded"?
The short answer is that it depends on the circumstances. Ordinarily, a firearm is loaded if the ammunition is placed into the weapon in a manner that it could be fired. If the suspect is being charged with carrying the firearm with the intent to commit a felony (12023 PC), then a special definition of "loaded" applies. The firearm is considered "loaded" if the weapon, and ammunition capable of being fired in the weapon, are in the immediate possession of the subject (12001(j) PC). Penal Code § 171e provides a similar definition of "loaded" for firearms carried in the state capitol or offices (171c PC), and in the residences of designated elected officials (171d PC). Deputies should be familiar with this special definition, and be careful not to apply it to circumstances not involving a violation of sections 171c, 171d, or 12023.

The majority of offenses involving the carrying of a loaded weapon fall under 12031 PC. Section 12031(g) defines a weapon as being loaded when the ammunition is in, or attached to, the firearm. It specifically provides that a weapon is loaded if there is ammunition in the firing chamber, magazine or clip. The California Court of Appeal considered the question of when a weapon is loaded in the case of People v. Harvey Lee Clark (45 Cal App. 4th 1147). The defendant had a single-shot shotgun which had no shell in the chamber. It had a buttstock shell holder which held live rounds. The court clarified the "attached to" language of 12031(g) holding that the weapon was unloaded since the rounds could not be fired from the buttstock holder.

High Capacity Magazines (more than 10 rounds):
Effective January 1, 2000, it became a felony to manufacture, import, sell, keep for sale, give, or lend, a high-capacity magazine. There is no prohibition on the simple possession of a high capacity magazine.

Conclusion:
Law enforcement officers have the duty to protect the safety and rights of all members of our society. The "Open Carry" movement provides a very unique situation where a lawfully armed person will present an apparent threat to others. Penal Code § 12031(e) is your primary tool to resolve these cases. It is also very important to remain cognizant of the agendas that various advocacy groups may possess. The best advice for dealing with any individual who may be trying to test you is: Remain professional, know the law, and enforce it fairly.

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department
NEWSLETTER
Field Operations Support Services
VOLUME 09 NUMBER 01 DATE: January 5, 2009

John D. Williams
LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF DEPT.

[fleegman]

Ask yourself can you post at least $5000 for bail (that would be the 10% for the bail bondsman) and another $5000 for an attorney's retainer (even for a false arrest)?

Ten large for exercising my constitutional and legal rights? I don't think so! I will gladly be a guest of the taxpayers of LA County for as long as it takes, and I will be as big a burden as possible on the system, and when I get out I will be an unending nightmare for the sum*****es who put me there.

[Liberty1]

As requested.....


Thought you were talking about NEW ONES! :cool:

[pullnshoot25]

As requested.....
I cant take the credit though!!
Originally Posted by hoffmang!

OPENLY CARRIED FIREARMS

Scenario:
You respond to a "Man with a gun" call at a local shopping mall. You locate the suspect walking through the mall. He is armed with a handgun carried in a belt holster. You detain the individual and determine that the handgun is unloaded. The subject has two fully loaded, highcapacity magazines for the weapon in his pocket. The subject explains that he is a believer in the Second Amendment and is carrying the weapon because he has a right to do so. What are your options as the handling deputy?

Discussion:
Earlier this year, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller (128 S.Ct 2783) that the Second Amendment provided an individual right for persons to "keep and bear arms". Just as the right to free speech does not include the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater, the Heller decision recognized reasonable limits on the exercise of that right. Prior to the Heller decision, case law in the 9th Federal Circuit (including California) held that the Second Amendment did not apply to individuals. In many respects, Heller is a landmark case. When a landmark decision is made, the Supreme Court does not decide all questions relating to the issue. It rules on the primary question, and then leaves it to lower courts to define the limits of the ruling through subsequent cases. Heller does not appear to impact any of California's weapons laws, but it does expose those laws to new challenge.

We have seen recent evidence of various gun rights advocacy groups attempting to raise those challenges. In several recent events, law enforcement officers have been presented with situations similar to the one above. Some of these events were audio recorded (and possibly video-recorded as well). It appears that the subjects were attempting to lure the officers into taking unfounded enforcement efforts to bring attention to their cause and/or to form the basis for court action.

This is also occurring at a time when law enforcement has been presented with several tragic events involving "active shooters". This presents a significant challenge to responding deputies. It is difficult to determine the intent of an armed person. If deputies casually approach an armed individual who proves to be an "active shooter", the consequences can be tragic for the deputy and public. On the other hand, appropriate officer safety measures in contacting armed persons may seem excessive to those who believe they are only securing a constitutional right.

We are not aware of any instances involving armed persons where the proper use of officer safety measures has produced liability for the agency or officer/deputy. Penal Code §12031(e) provides you with the authority to inspect any firearm carried in public to determine if it is loaded. Refusal to submit to an inspection is cause to arrest for a violation of §12031. This is an inspection authority and no probable cause is required to conduct an inspection. It should be noted that the purpose of this inspection is limited to a determination of whether or not the weapon is loaded.

You have the ability to run a records check of the weapon's serial number if it is visible to you during the course of the weapon inspection. Considerable case law holds that you are not required to "close your eyes" to things you observe during the lawful performance of your duties. Your authority to detain the subject while conducting the 12031(e) inspection is limited.

Once it is established that the weapon is being lawfully carried, and there are no other circumstances justifying the detention of the subject, the detention must end. As a general rule, with some exceptions discussed below, it is not illegal to carry an unloaded firearm in a public place. Here is a partial listing of circumstances where the simple possession of an unloaded firearm, in public, is prohibited:

• Within 1,500 feet of a public or private school (grades K-12) (626.9 PC). (Note: specific exceptions exist for residences, and for the transportation of firearms within containers.)

• Upon the grounds of a university or college (626.9 PC)

• By persons with felony convictions or by drug addicts (12021(a)(1) PC)

• By persons with specified misdemeanor convictions (12021(a)(2) +12021(c)(1) PC) (Note: The specified crimes are primarily assaults, batteries, domestic violence and weapons violations.)

• In connection with street gang activity (12021.5 PC)

• With the intent of committing a felony (12023 PC)

• While wearing a mask to conceal identity (12040 PC)

• Possession of a concealable firearm by a minor (12101 PC)

• By persons adjudicated with mental disorders under specified conditions (8103(a)(1) WIC)

• By persons who have been detained under 5150 WIC as a danger to self or others within the preceding five years. (8103(f)(1) WIC)

When is a firearm considered "Loaded"?
The short answer is that it depends on the circumstances. Ordinarily, a firearm is loaded if the ammunition is placed into the weapon in a manner that it could be fired. If the suspect is being charged with carrying the firearm with the intent to commit a felony (12023 PC), then a special definition of "loaded" applies. The firearm is considered "loaded" if the weapon, and ammunition capable of being fired in the weapon, are in the immediate possession of the subject (12001(j) PC). Penal Code § 171e provides a similar definition of "loaded" for firearms carried in the state capitol or offices (171c PC), and in the residences of designated elected officials (171d PC). Deputies should be familiar with this special definition, and be careful not to apply it to circumstances not involving a violation of sections 171c, 171d, or 12023.

The majority of offenses involving the carrying of a loaded weapon fall under 12031 PC. Section 12031(g) defines a weapon as being loaded when the ammunition is in, or attached to, the firearm. It specifically provides that a weapon is loaded if there is ammunition in the firing chamber, magazine or clip. The California Court of Appeal considered the question of when a weapon is loaded in the case of People v. Harvey Lee Clark (45 Cal App. 4th 1147). The defendant had a single-shot shotgun which had no shell in the chamber. It had a buttstock shell holder which held live rounds. The court clarified the "attached to" language of 12031(g) holding that the weapon was unloaded since the rounds could not be fired from the buttstock holder.

High Capacity Magazines (more than 10 rounds):
Effective January 1, 2000, it became a felony to manufacture, import, sell, keep for sale, give, or lend, a high-capacity magazine. There is no prohibition on the simple possession of a high capacity magazine.

Conclusion:
Law enforcement officers have the duty to protect the safety and rights of all members of our society. The "Open Carry" movement provides a very unique situation where a lawfully armed person will present an apparent threat to others. Penal Code § 12031(e) is your primary tool to resolve these cases. It is also very important to remain cognizant of the agendas that various advocacy groups may possess. The best advice for dealing with any individual who may be trying to test you is: Remain professional, know the law, and enforce it fairly.

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department
NEWSLETTER
Field Operations Support Services
VOLUME 09 NUMBER 01 DATE: January 5, 2009

John D. Williams
LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF DEPT.

Dude, this one is way old... like, way old.

[Liberty1]

I will gladly be a guest of the taxpayers of LA County for as long as it takes

Well that is one tactic and the Public Defenders Office has told me that they will defend in custody defendants without a means test. And that is the fastest way to get to trial too if you don't waive time.

[eflatminor]

Downtown LA has so many schools there is no way you can be in downtown la without being within 1000 feet.

I would agree with you tyrist...but you're wrong. I've gone to great lenghts to confirm that not only are there no K-12 schools within 1000' of my route, there are no schools of any kind.

[N6ATF]

Downtown LA has so many schools there is no way you can be in downtown la without being within 1000 feet.

:fud:

[Librarian]

I would agree with you tyrist...but you're wrong. I've gone to great lenghts to confirm that not only are there no K-12 schools within 1000' of my route, there are no schools of any kind.

Doesn't look impossible - representative map of LA-area public school zones:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj284/Librarian_bucket/LA1000ftschool.jpg

Almost certainly incomplete, and circles are not good descriptions of the zones.

[curtisfong]

LA-area public school zones:
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj284/Librarian_bucket/LA1000ftschool.jpg


Anybody care to overlay that with a map of shooting incidents? You know, to prove that "school zone" gun control laws "work"...

[N6ATF]

Here:

http://www.geocities.com/cus_ag/Black-background.gif

[yellowfin]

I see a big black screen there, N6.

[N6ATF]

Exactly. ;)

[mcsoupman]

Here:

http://www.geocities.com/cus_ag/Black-background.gif

Almost spit out my Drink! :thumbsup:

[tyrist]

There are also numerous private schools and charter schools in LA as well so only showing public schools is misleading.

[Librarian]

There are also numerous private schools and charter schools in LA as well so only showing public schools is misleading.
Only showing public schools is merely a data limitation - those are available in a convenient place.

If you have a list of the private or charter schools by lat/long, someone will be happy to add them to the map :) Otherwise, my personal experience with Google Earth's incomplete list is about a minute a point to collect the data.

More importantly, the circles do not represent the actual school zones, but a 1000' radius from the point identified as the school's address. Since most school addresses are not in the center of the actual property, and very few school properties are circular, the 'dot' indicators are not accurate.

As I said the first time, it's representative and almost certainly incomplete. It's not good enough to plot a course avoiding school zones. And if one reads the cautions, it is not misleading.

It does suggest it may be possible to do that. It also suggests that for many areas, that process may be difficult.

Google Maps does have a way of painting polygons onto maps; I did that for a couple of schools, laying out 'reasonably close' to 1000' boundaries parallel to the observed school boundaries. Takes me about 10 minutes per school - someone skilled probably could cut that in half (and with a good drawing tool, make it more accurate), but I don't happen to see a way of automating that without metes-and-bounds descriptions of the school properties.

All of which is peripheral; if eflatminor - or anyone - says he's done his homework, I believe him. Folks are beginning to 'get' that a mistake here can be costly.

[CitaDeL]

Only showing public schools is merely a data limitation - those are available in a convenient place.

If you have a list of the private or charter schools by lat/long, someone will be happy to add them to the map :) Otherwise, my personal experience with Google Earth's incomplete list is about a minute a point to collect the data.

More importantly, the circles do not represent the actual school zones, but a 1000' radius from the point identified as the school's address. Since most school addresses are not in the center of the actual property, and very few school properties are circular, the 'dot' indicators are not accurate.

As I said the first time, it's representative and almost certainly incomplete. It's not good enough to plot a course avoiding school zones. And if one reads the cautions, it is not misleading.

It does suggest it may be possible to do that. It also suggests that for many areas, that process may be difficult.

Google Maps does have a way of painting polygons onto maps; I did that for a couple of schools, laying out 'reasonably close' to 1000' boundaries parallel to the observed school boundaries. Takes me about 10 minutes per school - someone skilled probably could cut that in half (and with a good drawing tool, make it more accurate), but I don't happen to see a way of automating that without metes-and-bounds descriptions of the school properties.

All of which is peripheral; if eflatminor - or anyone - says he's done his homework, I believe him. Folks are beginning to 'get' that a mistake here can be costly.

One question.

The penal code governing school zones states the following;

626.9 (b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

Should a person be expected to 'reasonably know' where a school zone is without the zone being posted in any fashion and without any reliable depiction, map, chart, or illustration to indicate where the imaginary perimeter of such a zone begins or ends?

And a second question for simple indulgence;

Why would gunowners want to spend any time on attempting to accurately chart the presence of school zones that they otherwise would not reasonably be aware existed?

[Decoligny]

One question.

The penal code governing school zones states the following;



Should a person be expected to 'reasonably know' where a school zone is without the zone being posted in any fashion and without any reliable depiction, map, chart, or illustration to indicate where the imaginary perimeter of such a zone begins or ends?

And a second question for simple indulgence;

Why would gunowners want to spend any time on attempting to accurately chart the presence of school zones that they otherwise would not reasonably be aware existed?

That is exactly the way I look at it. I will research a specific area if I intend to be walking around with a gun, but if I am driving through an area, there is no way I would reasonably know where any schools are.

[Librarian]

One question.

The penal code governing school zones states the following;



Should a person be expected to 'reasonably know' where a school zone is without the zone being posted in any fashion and without any reliable depiction, map, chart, or illustration to indicate where the imaginary perimeter of such a zone begins or ends?

And a second question for simple indulgence;

Why would gunowners want to spend any time on attempting to accurately chart the presence of school zones that they otherwise would not reasonably be aware existed?

Oh, I agree with this - I was just responding to tyrist.

Better we should spend our time getting the silly law repealed.

[swhatb]

Here:

http://www.geocities.com/cus_ag/Black-background.gif

that's night time travel, right :p

[CA_Libertarian]

CitaDel brings up an important point.

If you are caught accidently entering a school zone, having a map of the school zones is going to be useful to the prosecution. It shows knowledge. When it comes to 626.9, ignorance is bliss.

[sorensen440]

Great advice Liberty1

[jlh95811]

Great advice Liberty1


Excellent contribution sorensen! :thumbsup:
Family guy reference. :D

[mcsoupman]

I have a question. It was stated to be ready to have a lawyer handy. I prefer not have lawyers around too much. No offense to any CGN lawyers, just usually means I am not in trouble.

Where is a good place to start to have a name and number handy? Not sure I want to rely on a random Public Defender. Does NRA membership help with this?

Thanks

[retired]

Ten large for exercising my constitutional and legal rights? I don't think so! I will gladly be a guest of the taxpayers of LA County for as long as it takes, and I will be as big a burden as possible on the system, and when I get out I will be an unending nightmare for the sum*****es who put me there.


I can guarantee you fleegman, you do not want to be in one of L.A. County's jails. You can confirm that with BWO and IIRC, he was in Twin Towers (my apologies BWO if I got this wrong), one of the newest facilities.

If you were lucky enough to be be in MCJ, across the street, you would quickly learn you don't want to be there. The old part of the jail was built in 1963 and the "new" part was opened in 1978.

I worked there for 4yrs. from 1976-1980 as a new deputy and again from 1997-2003 as a sgt. Trust me, you don't want to be there. I hated being there and I was paid to be and was able to go home at night.

Also, if you intend to be, "As big a burden as possible...," you will be accommodated by being housed in the discipline or "hole." If you continue to be a "burden," you will be one of those fortunate ones to get a special diet. Have you ever heard of "jute balls.":D All of the necessary healthy stuff, none of the taste.:eek:

[pullnshoot25]

I can guarantee you fleegman, you do not want to be in one of L.A. County's jails. You can confirm that with BWO and IIRC, he was in Twin Towers (my apologies BWO if I got this wrong), one of the newest facilities.

If you were lucky enough to be be in MCJ, across the street, you would quickly learn you don't want to be there. The old part of the jail was built in 1963 and the "new" part was opened in 1978.

I worked there for 4yrs. from 1976-1980 as a new deputy and again from 1997-2003 as a sgt. Trust me, you don't want to be there. I hated being there and I was paid to be and was able to go home at night.

Also, if you intend to be, "As big a burden as possible...," you will be accommodated by being housed in the discipline or "hole." If you continue to be a "burden," you will be one of those fortunate ones to get a special diet. Have you ever heard of "jute balls.":D All of the necessary healthy stuff, none of the taste.:eek:

My friend works in the jails, he said the inmates love those jute balls. Has the recipe changed or what?

[The Nomadd]

you may be ready to sue and the DAs and the politicians know that as well, but do you know what the DAs and the politicians are discussing and planning about this issue? This is what needs to be determined in regards to being effective, there is more than one card in a poker game. Pulling an ace on the first deal don't mean shi* imo I think the DAs will bait and switch, meaning they will befriend the movement as they are now under the guise of fairness in law enforcement to gather information on the movement. Then when the timing is right you will see a State wide referendum to ban any type of carry in all public spaces, just like Hawaii and Londonistan. just my .02c all this is irrelevent unless some type of public space carry can be made out of Heller.

Okay, I know I'm going to sound stupid for asking this, but in the last few days, I've noticed the term "Londonistan" being used. WTF is it? Google didn't help much.

[jlh95811]

Okay, I know I'm going to sound stupid for asking this, but in the last few days, I've noticed the term "Londonistan" being used. WTF is it? Google didn't help much.

London+
Afganistan
or
Pakistan
or
Californiastan
or any other with 'istan' as the suffix = Londonistan

Essentially any state and/or nation that has an oppressive government. :thumbsup:

[The Nomadd]

London+
Afganistan
or
Pakistan
or
Californiastan
or any other with 'istan' as the suffix = Londonistan

Essentially any state and/or nation that has an oppressive government. :thumbsup:

Gotcha! Had a feeling that was what it might have meant.