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View Full Version : underestimating 22lr.


luisdeleon
03-09-2009, 11:25 PM
just wanted to share some thoughts i had. i see a lot of people saying 22lr is too small of caliber for hunting med. size game. my family in central america hunt deer with 22lr(stinger ammo). no scopes, no stopped deer. dogs chasing at full sprint at about 200 yards. one shot gets the job done. they do have a different way of hunting in other countries, but no regulation on caliber. or the use of dogs. was they way my grandpa did it, the way my uncles did it. and i tell you they always came home with a deer. ohh and these deer aren't your california white tail size. there white tail with a mule deer size(big). last time i was up the i was 15 and the deer they caught was bigger than me. i just see that, that ammo and caliber will cause some damage to 2 & 4 legged predators. just my thoughts

thanks,

luis

PolishMike
03-09-2009, 11:27 PM
Ehh, i would like to see that.

Its no bb gun but you would need a pretty lucky shot to take down anything bigger than a rabbit.

Jpach
03-09-2009, 11:40 PM
My dad and his brother used to go kill deer with .22s back in the day growing up. He said he would either shoot them in the head or just shoot them over and over again. ^^^^Dont be fooled by ballistic gellatin and the like. Nothing quite simulates living tissue except for...well, living tissue.

luisdeleon
03-09-2009, 11:44 PM
i'm not kidding, cci stinger ammo. i don't expect anyone to belive me, but i am telling the truth, my uncles to this day still hunt with 22lr, and i saw first hand when it got skinned where it hit. like i say people underestimate that round. and again just something that has been going through my mined, after all the talk about 22lr. round.

recshooter
03-09-2009, 11:47 PM
Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

luisdeleon
03-09-2009, 11:49 PM
My dad and his brother used to go kill deer with .22s back in the day growing up. He said he would either shoot them in the head or just shoot them over and over again. ^^^^Dont be fooled by ballistic gellatin and the like. Nothing quite simulates living tissue except for...well, living tissue.

the one i saw was just above the front leg. looking at it sideways, one bullet. and people i'm pretty sure it not like tv with high cap rifles when they shoot and the deer goes down in an instant. but it does do the job.

luisdeleon
03-09-2009, 11:53 PM
Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

this isn't in the usa, it's just how other countries do it. i think there is too mush B.S. here in the us when it comes to deer hunting

knuckled
03-09-2009, 11:55 PM
i just see that, that ammo and caliber will cause some damage to 2 & 4 legged predators. just my thoughts



I think the reason most people wouldn't recommend .22lr against 2/4 leg predators is because:

1) you don't usually have the time for a perfect (or even necessarily a good) shot

2) your life depends on a quick stop.

So people usually wanna throw a big(ger) chunk of lead for "stopping power"

Where there is time etc...it's not unheard of for snipers to use a .22lr since there is no immediate threat.

I'm sure most anybody here would take a .22lr if it was there only choice for self defense.

audihenry
03-10-2009, 12:12 AM
this isn't in the usa, it's just how other countries do it. i think there is too mush B.S. here in the us when it comes to deer hunting

Of course. Speaking in terms of handguns, the vast majority here think that anything under .45 is a waste of time. European and other countries tend to prefer smaller calibers.

PolishMike
03-10-2009, 12:14 AM
Of course. Speaking in terms of handguns, the vast majority here think that anything under .45 is a waste of time. European and other countries tend to prefer smaller calibers.

Mostly because their governments limit the calibers.

audihenry
03-10-2009, 12:26 AM
Mostly because their governments limit the calibers.

That has always been the case there. Look at their V12 engines and how much displacement they put out. As a result, they innovated where the U.S. just went higher and higher displacement with huge inefficiencies. Case in point: Viper V10.

nick
03-10-2009, 12:34 AM
European police generally carries larger calibers though. So I'd say it might have less to do with the alleged innovation (.32 ACP is .32ACP both in Europe and in the US, and the same guns are available in both places) rather than getting what they can, as it's better than nothing.

That being said, smaller calibers mostly can do the job. And "stopping power" (which is mostly a myth anyway, unless you're talking .50 or 20mm rounds here) isn't nearly as important as shot placement when it comes to actually stopping someone. What you do need the more powerful round for is penetration, and a larger wound channel doesn't hurt, either.

audihenry
03-10-2009, 12:52 AM
I would love to see some kind of test of large vs. small calibers with moving faux-targets and how many consistent/deadly shots one can get with either.

randy
03-10-2009, 1:03 AM
I'm not going for it. Do I believe you can kill a deer with a 22 YES I do. Do I think you are going to make a single shot kill on a deer on the run chased by dogs? No I don't. Nor why would anybody want to? Heating up wild animals before you harvest them only makes the meat taste terrible.

If you believe it happened then for you it did. People believe in creatures from outer space too. When they land on the corner of the 405 and 101 fwy then call me.

nick
03-10-2009, 1:05 AM
I'm not going for it. Do I believe you can kill a deer with a 22 YES I do. Do I think you are going to make a single shot kill on a deer on the run chased by dogs? No I don't. Nor why would anybody want to? Heating up wild animals before you harvest them only makes the meat taste terrible.

If you believe it happened then for you it did. People believe in creatures from outer space too. When they land on the corner of the 405 and 101 fwy then call me.

What's your phone #?

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-10-2009, 2:55 AM
What's your phone #?

867-5309

Kid Stanislaus
03-10-2009, 4:36 AM
Several years ago I read that more people are killed in LA county every year with .22 caliber guns than any other. I'm sure that's because the huge OVERWHELMING number of guns owned are in that caliber. I'd sure hate to have to stop some VERY LARGE prison hardened criminal loaded to the gills on meth, PCP, heroine and Jack Daniels with a .22, but then again maybe a .454 Casull wouldn't do much better?

Ford8N
03-10-2009, 4:43 AM
867-5309:party:

Fjold
03-10-2009, 6:03 AM
Shooting deer etc with a 22rf is a little different here. You have dogs to track down wounded animals so it doesn't matter how far they run. In areas where you can't use dogs the loss rate for wounded animals would be very high.

luisdeleon
03-10-2009, 6:15 AM
Shooting deer etc with a 22rf is a little different here. You have dogs to track down wounded animals so it doesn't matter how far they run. In areas where you can't use dogs the loss rate for wounded animals would be very high.

so true!

Mute
03-10-2009, 6:52 AM
I once killed a grizzly bear just by looking at it mean.

GTKrockeTT
03-10-2009, 7:12 AM
I once killed a grizzly bear just by looking at it mean.

nice to meet you Mr. Bauer.

nick
03-10-2009, 7:17 AM
nice to meet you Mr. Bauer.

bears have feelings, too.

MonsterMan
03-10-2009, 7:40 AM
Chris McCandless killed a Moose in Alaska with a Remington Nylon 66 .22LR. I definitely believe that killing a deer with a .22LR can be done. That being said, I also think that you should choose your tool for the right job. If that is the only tool you have, than that is the one you pick. If you have other options, like a 30.06, 308, .243, etc, then you should choose those.

Sutcliffe
03-10-2009, 7:57 AM
Just take the right shot. It doesn't leave a whole lot of margin for error. Unless you are really good with it, I'd stick to the larger calibers.

trinydex
03-10-2009, 8:22 AM
That has always been the case there. Look at their V12 engines and how much displacement they put out. As a result, they innovated where the U.S. just went higher and higher displacement with huge inefficiencies. Case in point: Viper V10.

don't see where you're going with this example...

the viper doesn't have to spin nearly as fast in order to make its hp figures (nor could it spin faster), it also makes torque at rpm figures unimagineable in those european cars.

it's two different philosophies, two entirely different ways to get to two different platforms that try to win a race.

i actually also don't know which legendary v12 engines you're referring to... current f1 rules call for a v10 no? the v12s that do immediately come to mind are the waste-of-time lamborghinis, next in line would be the enzo (is there even a racing series where an enzo participates?).

on the flip side of the coin the c6r does well with american v8 power, porsches do great without the other half of a v12 motor, ferrari itself does fine in f1 and the countless other series that the modena v8s participate in...

Bird of Fire
03-10-2009, 12:21 PM
That has always been the case there. Look at their V12 engines and how much displacement they put out. As a result, they innovated where the U.S. just went higher and higher displacement with huge inefficiencies. Case in point: Viper V10.

The larger an engines bore/stroke, the more difficult it is for it to reach VE in comparison to say a small short stroke 4 cylinder N/A. Once cylinders are pressurized, all bets are off.

This isn't an america vs *.country, or dumb pride, this is just science.

FWIW the bugatti veyron makes what....1,000hp using a 8.0 liter w16 motor with 4 turbos?

The saleen TT makes 1001 using a 7.0 liter V8 with only two turbos.

HP per CI or L is a ******** argument anyways. Bottom line is all that matters, not how you get there.

You'd really be hard pressed to convince me that europe innovated a single thing in the ICE performance wise.

SDgarrick
03-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Chris McCandless killed a Moose in Alaska with a Remington Nylon 66 .22LR. I definitely believe that killing a deer with a .22LR can be done. That being said, I also think that you should choose your tool for the right job. If that is the only tool you have, than that is the one you pick. If you have other options, like a 30.06, 308, .243, etc, then you should choose those.

'Twas a Caribou.

Alaric
03-10-2009, 1:14 PM
Here's a good (and tragic) example of the potential deadliness of .22LR: http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/10/1m10gaono234657-suspect-admitted-shooting-cop-juro/?zIndex=64492

The officer who was killed was sniped from 386 feet away by a gangbanger using a scoped .22 rifle.

RIP.

ZirconJohn
03-10-2009, 1:27 PM
Many conversations with local hillbillies (I say that with a great deal of respect), and when I hear from not only one local, but many who's family line have hunted these parts since childhood. The fact is 'yes', local blacktail deer from small, medium to large taken with a .22LR.

I also know several local wild boar (we call'em 'hawg')... hawg population control hunters travel california and kill over-populated hawg infestations... with dowgs and a .22 wheel-gun... aaawwwwoooooo-woo-woo-woo!

Now, they also carry .30-30 to .30-06 from open sight to scopes etc... that's long shot stuff respective. However, the up close and personal dowgs and .22LR is the ticket!

Now, I don't care if you hunt and want to tote a gosh-dang .300 Ulrtra Mag to drop a blacktail that for most cases are not too much larger than a large jack rabbit with horns... go own'n git'er done son!

I used to know this one feller hunt blacktail here with a .300 Ultra Mag... he's in prison for arson now, as well he should be and for a long time!

Shoot what you want... this is an 'can it be done' thread? - Oh hale yes!!!

Alaric
03-10-2009, 1:34 PM
Many conversations with local hillbillies (I say that with a great deal of respect), and when I hear from not only one local, but many who's family line have hunted these parts since childhood. The fact is 'yes', local blacktail deer from small, medium to large taken with a .22LR.

I also know several local wild boar (we call'em 'hawg')... hawg population control hunters travel california and kill over-populated hawg infestations... with dowgs and a .22 wheel-gun... aaawwwwoooooo-woo-woo-woo!

Now, they also carry .30-30 to .30-06 from open sight to scopes etc... that's long shot stuff respective. However, the up close and personal dowgs and .22LR is the ticket!

Now, I don't care if you hunt and want to tote a gosh-dang .300 Ulrtra Mag to drop a blacktail that for most cases are not too much larger than a large jack rabbit with horns... go own'n git'er done son!

I used to know this one feller hunt blacktail here with a .300 Ultra Mag... he's in prison for arson now, as well he should be and for a long time!

Shoot what you want... this is an 'can it be done' thread? - Oh hale yes!!!

Someone's been watching too much Larry the Cable Guy... :p

Agreed though, .22lr will definitely, er, get the job done in most cases; as long as the job doesn't require taking down a Kodiac Bear.

Timberwolf
03-10-2009, 1:37 PM
nice to meet you Mr. Bauer.

Uh uh - that was Davy Crockett that tried to "kill a bar by grinnin' it to death"

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2009, 3:49 PM
these deer aren't your california white tail size. there white tail with a mule deer size(big).

Just for the record, there are no white tails in California. Well, there could be a few close to the borders but, the typical deer you will find in Ca. are either coastal blacktails or mule deer.


Ehh, i would like to see that.

Its no bb gun but you would need a pretty lucky shot to take down anything bigger than a rabbit.

No, just good shot placement. I've dropped a deer at +/- 125 yards with a single round of .22lr. This was a long time ago and I was broke and hungry. The statute of limitations has long past and, no, I would not condone anyone trying this due to the fact that it's against the law here. Never the less, a .22lr will kill a deer instantly!

luisdeleon
03-10-2009, 4:01 PM
Just for the record, there are no white tails in California. Well, there could be a few close to the borders but, the typical deer you will find in Ca. are either coastal blacktails or mule deer.




No, just good shot placement. I've dropped a deer at +/- 125 yards with a single round of .22lr. This was a long time ago and I was broke and hungry. The statute of limitations has long past and, no, I would not condone anyone trying this due to the fact that it's against the law here. Never the less, a .22lr will kill a deer instantly!

thanks for clearing that one up for me. and agree with you on the second part.

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 4:13 PM
Believe it or not, there are countries where possession of firearms is illegal, people convert air rifles. They make it pretty powerful and there are some instances that murders by the air rifles and hunting deer and other similar size animals with the modified air rifles are common.

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2009, 4:14 PM
thanks for clearing that one up for me. and agree with you on the second part.

Isn't it funny how all the deer crossing signs in Ca. depict a breed of deer that isn't even native to the state?

hybridatsun350
03-10-2009, 4:19 PM
22lr can be very deadly, but that doesn't make it an ethical means of killing medium sized game.

HP per CI or L is a ******** argument anyways. Bottom line is all that matters, not how you get there.

Horsepower per liter is some BS made up by the Honda guys to make 160 hp sound hugely impressive. When it comes down to it all that matters is horsepower, but this is way off topic.... :TFH:

Jicko
03-10-2009, 4:26 PM
i'm not kidding, cci stinger ammo. i don't expect anyone to belive me, but i am telling the truth, my uncles to this day still hunt with 22lr, and i saw first hand when it got skinned where it hit. like i say people underestimate that round. and again just something that has been going through my mined, after all the talk about 22lr. round.

:useless:

Show us some proofs... oh.. maybe they don't have cameras down there... just like urban legends...

:inquis:

Bird of Fire
03-10-2009, 4:42 PM
22lr can be very deadly, but that doesn't make it an ethical means of killing medium sized game.



Horsepower per liter is some BS made up by the Honda guys to make 160 hp sound hugely impressive. When it comes down to it all that matters is horsepower, but this is way off topic.... :TFH:

Werd X 8439828493

I'm just a huge gearhead primarily and always hate seeing the "but my tiny XY engine makes 150 horsepower!" without any understanding of how it does so, or @ what RPM. All things being equal the bigger motor will make more power 8 days a week. :)

A 160 horsepower honda 4 cylinder is impressive - if the mode of transportation has 2 wheels anyways ;)

Model X
03-10-2009, 4:47 PM
That has always been the case there. Look at their V12 engines and how much displacement they put out. As a result, they innovated where the U.S. just went higher and higher displacement with huge inefficiencies. Case in point: Viper V10.

maybe by hp/liter they are inefficient. However in efficiency that actually matters, they get the same, if not better, gas mileage.

Canute
03-10-2009, 5:27 PM
maybe by hp/liter they are inefficient. However in efficiency that actually matters, they get the same, if not better, gas mileage.

My 2008 Corvette, which dynoed at 400 hp at the wheels when it was new (~450 crank), will get about 30mpg on the freeway if I'm gentle. The Viper is kind of like the Desert Eagle as far as I'm concerned, and the Vette is a nice .45 caliber Glock :).

jlh95811
03-10-2009, 5:30 PM
Small deer maybe.
Hogs - Not buying it. Their skin is so thick I've seen 243 not penetrate over an inch. It died but only after about a 1000 yard run and track.(good spotting scope)

But against a man I would not even try it. If I owned only a .22 and had an intruder I'd just be at the mercy of his will; which if shot by a .22 will just make his will more ill intended. Unless shot placement is perfect and possibly even multiple shots.

I much more trust my 10 rounds of .45 especially because in that situation you're only likely to get maybe 4 into the bad guy. Let's not play "Quieres Mas Macho?" here. We would all be dropping figurative logs in our Fruit of The Looms if we actually HAD to shoot someone running right for us starting from likely just a few yards away.

That is why my Benelli is my home defense weapon of choice. 3 1/2 inch magnum 00 buck is going to make sure he doesn't get to me as long as I pull the trigger first.

Bizcuits
03-10-2009, 5:52 PM
Several years ago I read that more people are killed in LA county every year with .22 caliber guns than any other. I'm sure that's because the huge OVERWHELMING number of guns owned are in that caliber. I'd sure hate to have to stop some VERY LARGE prison hardened criminal loaded to the gills on meth, PCP, heroine and Jack Daniels with a .22, but then again maybe a .454 Casull wouldn't do much better?

Why not? I'd have total confidence in a Ruger 10/22 with a 50rd drum.

Some Guy
03-10-2009, 6:12 PM
Story of an 11 year old kid killing 2 intruders with 22.(site wouldnt let me copy it) Look towards the bottom.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

pullnshoot25
03-10-2009, 6:19 PM
I have a box of the 1750FPS .22 ammo from Aguila in the case I ever need to... you know... kill stuff.

I think the .22LR is the greatest little caliber ever. I freaking love it.

pullnshoot25
03-10-2009, 6:20 PM
Small deer maybe.
Hogs - Not buying it. Their skin is so thick I've seen 243 not penetrate over an inch. It died but only after about a 1000 yard run and track.(good spotting scope)

But against a man I would not even try it. If I owned only a .22 and had an intruder I'd just be at the mercy of his will; which if shot by a .22 will just make his will more ill intended. Unless shot placement is perfect and possibly even multiple shots.

I much more trust my 10 rounds of .45 especially because in that situation you're only likely to get maybe 4 into the bad guy. Let's not play "Quieres Mas Macho?" here. We would all be dropping figurative logs in our Fruit of The Looms if we actually HAD to shoot someone running right for us starting from likely just a few yards away.

That is why my Benelli is my home defense weapon of choice. 3 1/2 inch magnum 00 buck is going to make sure he doesn't get to me as long as I pull the trigger first.


But you know what people say.... a .22 in the pocket is better than a .45 in the car!

jlh95811
03-10-2009, 7:26 PM
Why not? I'd have total confidence in a Ruger 10/22 with a 50rd drum.


Better be fully auto

bowfin
03-10-2009, 7:44 PM
First off, hunting with dogs can help cover for less than adequate marksmanship and or killing power in a firearm. In fact, I believe that there are some packs of deer hounds that could be successful even without the humans carrying a firearm. Same with wild boar, guys with good dogs kill them with spears or knives once the dogs bring it to bay.

Secondly, the .22 long rifle cartridge has kill umpteen thousands of hogs, cattle, bison, and whatever other large animal that needs to be butchered on the farm or ranch. I've done it, I've seen it. The .22 SHORT has the distinction of killing one of the largest (former world record) Kodiak bear ever taken. The Indian girl shot it while gathering berries. She was afraid to move away because it was so close, so she held the gun out at arm's length and put it inches from its ear. Once it went down, she fired all of her cartridges through her single shot rifle into head until she ran out, then ran for help that was no longer needed.

People who haven't seen anything killed with a .22 tend to dismiss its potential too hastily. However, I believe no one should choose a .22 (or even a .22 centerfire) if something more suitable is available. If that is all you have, fine. If you have better, than no excuse for not using it.

bowfin
03-10-2009, 8:16 PM
m freeman,

Everybody deserves to have an accurate .22, and I think that the most accurate gun most people own is their favorite .22. My brother has a 10/22 with a beat up old Tasco World Class scope that he refuses to replace, because he can knock over .45 ACP cases at 25 yards all day long.

Mine used to be a Wincester 490, almost a rimfire copy of the Winchester Model 100 semiautomatic deer rifle. Right now, I've been fooling with my 5mm Remington 591 now that ammunition is back on the market for it. A little too explosive for small game or coon hunting, I am afraid.

7x57
03-10-2009, 9:18 PM
Much of this thread is an apples vs. oranges comparison of killing vs. stopping. There also seems to be much confusion between possibility vs. advisability.

If you want to kill someone or something, .22 lr is lethal, no doubt about it. The problem is, the thing we want to do with guns is usually not killing per se. In a self-defense situation, your only real goal is (and legally only can be) to stop your attacker. If he dies, well, that's the hazard of being the sort of person who has to get shot to stop hurting other people. That's why .22 LR is a bad self-defense cartridge; it may well kill the attacker, but it isn't as likely to stop him immediately as a more suitable round. If you do shoot until the attacker is stopped, I suspect he is *more* likely to die from several .22 rounds than from one or two (typical case) reasonable rounds. IOW, when used successfully as a self-defense round, I suspect .22 is *more* lethal because you're likely to have to shoot multiple times.

The next time someone says "guns are only designed to kill," BTW, you can ask them why .22 LR isn't a popular self-defense cartridge. They won't know, but you can tell them the reason: self-defense guns are designed to stop, not kill per se. Killing is a side effect of having enough holes punched in the right place to stop.

For hunting, you *do* intend to kill, but you intend to do it immediately, instantly if possible. Again .22 is a poor choice for medium and large game not because it isn't deadly, it is a poor choice because the animal is more likely to suffer and more likely to be wasted by running off and dying without being recovered. So hunting demands more than defense in one sense: you want to immediately kill and not simply stop. But the hunter is a sniper, primarily shooting animals that are not pumped full of adrenaline, and that makes so much difference that you still need more power in a "stopping" round for dangerous game than you would to hunt the same animal if you didn't have to worry about defense. There is a reason why PH's for dangerous game generally carry more gun than their clients, and that reason is adrenaline.

As for advisability, sure you *can* hunt anything with just about anything. You can take elephant with a bow, and with .22 LR. Should you? Not if you have better tools available. If someone depends on game to live, and what they have and/or can afford shells for is a .22, then that is ethical. Survivial is involved. Would it be ethical for me? No, my survival isn't on the line, and I can afford to shoot something less likely to merely wound the animal. Another variable is the hunter's skill: a subsistence hunter is likely to be much, much better than I am. If you can reliably stalk into or ambush at close range and take a head shot (IIRC the way Canadians indians do/did hunt moose with .22 LR) then even if survival isn't at stake you can ethically hunt with a cartridge that I cannot. So it is not *advisable* or ethical for most of us to hunt with a .22, even though it is certainly *possible* to be successful. But that may not be true for someone else, due to necessity or economics or skill.

So in spite of the fact that some people some places hunt big game with .22 rimfire, very few of *us* should. I don't even regard .223 or any centerfire .22 caliber cartridge as adequate for deer (.243 is my idea of a minimum "good" deer cartridge). That is NOT the same as saying it cannot be successful, or that no one out there has a good reason to do it anyway, or that the reason it isn't a good idea is that the cartridge isn't lethal enough.

7x57

Bizcuits
03-10-2009, 9:45 PM
Better be fully auto

You've obviously not played much Call of Duty lately... The joy of video games is you become very fast at clicking and pulling :)

jlh95811
03-10-2009, 10:04 PM
Actually I do play. Always getting guys going, "He's cheating. He's got his 1911 on full auto!"

pepsi2451
03-11-2009, 12:12 AM
A .22 will take down deer fine, just aim for right between the glowing eyes in your spotlight.;) No I have never done this, all my deer where take legally, but I have talked to plenty of people who have. It wouldn't be my first choice for deer even if it was legal, but I guess if your spotlighting a nice quiet .22 is good. As for 2 legged predators, I know I can put 10 rounds in a small group pretty fast with a 10/22.

boingo96
03-11-2009, 1:57 AM
I have to agree with those on here about the .22lr for self defense. If you search articles on the net, you will find many stating that the .22lr is a common weapon of assassins. They are quiet and inexpensive. No to mention that the round does not penetrate through the target. The round if it does not kill instantly will bounce around the insides and cause more damage than a through and through round will. Internal bleeding and the possibility of the round making its way through the vessels and stopping the heart by blocking a major vessel. Nasty way to go. I would prefer my wife firing 10 rounds of 22lr into an intruder than the large caliber. The 22 would lose velocity as it went through drywall where as a 40 or 45 caliber would not slow down at all. If the mental part of hearing the gun go click then boom does not slow down an intruder, do you really think the large caliber would? If the intruder is that crazed (doped up) then she has her trusty back up buoy knife.:D

jlh95811
03-11-2009, 9:23 AM
I have to agree with those on here about the .22lr for self defense. If you search articles on the net, you will find many stating that the .22lr is a common weapon of assassins. They are quiet and inexpensive. No to mention that the round does not penetrate through the target. The round if it does not kill instantly will bounce around the insides and cause more damage than a through and through round will. Internal bleeding and the possibility of the round making its way through the vessels and stopping the heart by blocking a major vessel. Nasty way to go. I would prefer my wife firing 10 rounds of 22lr into an intruder than the large caliber. The 22 would lose velocity as it went through drywall where as a 40 or 45 caliber would not slow down at all. If the mental part of hearing the gun go click then boom does not slow down an intruder, do you really think the large caliber would? If the intruder is that crazed (doped up) then she has her trusty back up buoy knife.:D

.22's don't go boom. They go "psst". It may or may not get his attention. The very load boom of my 1911 firing a 230gr +P Fed Tact HP will get a scare out of him first.

ck867
03-11-2009, 9:34 AM
I believe the OP started this thread in regards to hunting with a .22 ARguing about it's stopping power for self defense is another story. While I do not believe a .22 would be a good self defense round, there are articles that state that more deaths are caused by .22 due to availability. Also lets not forget the virginia tech incident where a 9mm and .22 pistol did plenty of damage.

mif_slim
03-11-2009, 9:49 AM
My dad told us of stories of back in the days when they get huge racks with 22LR. I believe you can bag a deer with a 22LR. My dad has proff. haha, old old old pictures and the rack mounted.

As for 22LR shooting 200 yards.....ummm....thats a 41~42 inch drop. I know, I practice with 22LR for Long-Range shooting. Bagging a deer at 200 yards with a 22LR....possible? I think you can hit it, dont know if it'll penetrate any vitals though.

lead chucker
03-11-2009, 11:46 AM
Much of this thread is an apples vs. oranges comparison of killing vs. stopping. There also seems to be much confusion between possibility vs. advisability.

If you want to kill someone or something, .22 lr is lethal, no doubt about it. The problem is, the thing we want to do with guns is usually not killing per se. In a self-defense situation, your only real goal is (and legally only can be) to stop your attacker. If he dies, well, that's the hazard of being the sort of person who has to get shot to stop hurting other people. That's why .22 LR is a bad self-defense cartridge; it may well kill the attacker, but it isn't as likely to stop him immediately as a more suitable round. If you do shoot until the attacker is stopped, I suspect he is *more* likely to die from several .22 rounds than from one or two (typical case) reasonable rounds. IOW, when used successfully as a self-defense round, I suspect .22 is *more* lethal because you're likely to have to shoot multiple times.

The next time someone says "guns are only designed to kill," BTW, you can ask them why .22 LR isn't a popular self-defense cartridge. They won't know, but you can tell them the reason: self-defense guns are designed to stop, not kill per se. Killing is a side effect of having enough holes punched in the right place to stop.

For hunting, you *do* intend to kill, but you intend to do it immediately, instantly if possible. Again .22 is a poor choice for medium and large game not because it isn't deadly, it is a poor choice because the animal is more likely to suffer and more likely to be wasted by running off and dying without being recovered. So hunting demands more than defense in one sense: you want to immediately kill and not simply stop. But the hunter is a sniper, primarily shooting animals that are not pumped full of adrenaline, and that makes so much difference that you still need more power in a "stopping" round for dangerous game than you would to hunt the same animal if you didn't have to worry about defense. There is a reason why PH's for dangerous game generally carry more gun than their clients, and that reason is adrenaline.

As for advisability, sure you *can* hunt anything with just about anything. You can take elephant with a bow, and with .22 LR. Should you? Not if you have better tools available. If someone depends on game to live, and what they have and/or can afford shells for is a .22, then that is ethical. Survivial is involved. Would it be ethical for me? No, my survival isn't on the line, and I can afford to shoot something less likely to merely wound the animal. Another variable is the hunter's skill: a subsistence hunter is likely to be much, much better than I am. If you can reliably stalk into or ambush at close range and take a head shot (IIRC the way Canadians indians do/did hunt moose with .22 LR) then even if survival isn't at stake you can ethically hunt with a cartridge that I cannot. So it is not *advisable* or ethical for most of us to hunt with a .22, even though it is certainly *possible* to be successful. But that may not be true for someone else, due to necessity or economics or skill.

So in spite of the fact that some people some places hunt big game with .22 rimfire, very few of *us* should. I don't even regard .223 or any centerfire .22 caliber cartridge as adequate for deer (.243 is my idea of a minimum "good" deer cartridge). That is NOT the same as saying it cannot be successful, or that no one out there has a good reason to do it anyway, or that the reason it isn't a good idea is that the cartridge isn't lethal enough.

7x57

Good post! I agree with that 100%

locktime
03-11-2009, 11:56 AM
Fire a .22 LR in a short barrel revolver in an enclosed area with no hearing protection and you won't hear pssst. You may not hear much for a while.

I can't say much positive about the .22 LR for big game hunting or as first choice as a defensive load, but I wouldn't want to get hit by one.

And if you shoot a .22 pistol at an intruder in a dark hallway, he's not going to be thinking "Hey, that's just a .22, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and not worry about it."

escon1
03-11-2009, 8:26 PM
I once killed a grizzly bear just by looking at it mean.

Are you Chuck Norris?;)

luchador768
03-11-2009, 10:05 PM
John Hinkley did a lot of damage with his .22, physically and to the second ammendment.

bigthaiboy
03-12-2009, 12:05 AM
John Hinkley did a lot of damage with his .22, physically.....

And so did Sirhan Sirhan.

Gio
03-12-2009, 1:06 AM
.22's don't go boom. They go "psst". It may or may not get his attention. The very load boom of my 1911 firing a 230gr +P Fed Tact HP will get a scare out of him first.

Would you like to hear my Walther P22-CA Target which has a 5" barrel? The guys next to me this last Saturday were asking me what kind of caliber handgun I was shooting. It is even louder when CCI Mini-Mags are used, I believe I was using Winchester Wildcats when I was asked. I did not shoot aby CCI roounds last weekend as it is too expensive and is primarily for my AR-22 Build ;)

As for hunting with a .22LR I can certainly see it especially with the aid of dogs tracking down the injured game.

Just my take on it though, what do I know :43:

-Gio

walter
03-12-2009, 1:09 AM
anyone who talks Deleted about 22LR should try getting shot by one, it ain't no joke

Gio
03-12-2009, 1:16 AM
anyone who talks about 22LR should try getting shot by one, it ain't no joke

:rofl: Good one, I know I would not want to get shot by one :thumbsup:

-Gio

eccvets
03-12-2009, 2:53 AM
I got a 5-7 and I'm sure it will stop someone... its something like a .22 hehe :)

SDgarrick
03-12-2009, 6:14 PM
Doin' what you can with what you got.

Capt. Speirs
03-12-2009, 7:29 PM
22lr and Boar hunting anyone? I think the reason we have laws on what caliber to use with deer for instance is, they want a clean kill and so do you. If the deer suffers for too long it will taint the meat, right?

pullnshoot25
03-12-2009, 8:29 PM
22lr and Boar hunting anyone? I think the reason we have laws on what caliber to use with deer for instance is, they want a clean kill and so do you. If the deer suffers for too long it will taint the meat, right?

My friend wants to take my .22mag with him to Texas for pig hunting. I have complete confidence he can make the shot.

Of course, he is packing my .44mag in case things get a little weird :)

N6ATF
03-13-2009, 4:44 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5802132

Robber lets victim get his .22 rifle, victim shoots him in the head.

fusionstar
03-13-2009, 5:26 PM
not many things can survive a .22 caliber hole in the lungs, heart, kidney, arteries, brain, spine. I can assure you that the 22lr is underpowered compared to deer calibers .243 + BUT it will get the job done.

Jonathan Doe
03-13-2009, 5:44 PM
I probably see about 30 -40% of the bullets recovered from the coroner's office after autopsy are 22 LR bullets. Guns in 22 LR caliber is small enough to carry concealed easily compared to bigger and heavier center fire firearms.

luisdeleon
03-13-2009, 5:51 PM
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5802132

Robber lets victim get his .22 rifle, victim shoots him in the head.

see. i'm telling you does some damage.

12voltguy
03-14-2009, 12:55 PM
Chris McCandless killed a Moose in Alaska with a Remington Nylon 66 .22LR. I definitely believe that killing a deer with a .22LR can be done. That being said, I also think that you should choose your tool for the right job. If that is the only tool you have, than that is the one you pick. If you have other options, like a 30.06, 308, .243, etc, then you should choose those.

if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail:D

saki302
03-14-2009, 1:48 PM
Getting the job done, and getting the job done QUICKLY are two totally different things.

If you were racing in Le Mans, would you race with a Fiesta? Sure, it'll finish the race, but...

Point is, pick your defensive gun like you are expecting to be in a gunfight.

That said, a .22 in the pocket is better than a roll of nickels. But for ever small .22, there's a .32 or .380 not much larger.

-Dave

PS- I still call BS on the 'bouncing around' theory. There isn't enough energy in the .22LR to bounce around. to cross the body cavity multiple times, you'd need at least 24-36" of penetration. Good luck with that!

You may get a single deflection at best, and I doubt you'd ever see anything bounce BACK. I'm willing to bet multiple wound tracks just reflect being shot multiple times (how easy is it to rapid fire a .22? VERY easy!).