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View Full Version : Sanity check me, Barnes copper solids in handguns


artherd
10-24-2005, 1:56 PM
18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B):
[/quote]a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;[/quote]

How about the california AP statutes? I couldn't find anything furthur on 'primarily designed'.

The Barnes are obviously sold & marketed as hunting bullets, however relying on a bare and undefined 'primarily designed' does not instill one with a sense of great confidence.

12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
(b) "Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily to penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has either of the following characteristics:
(1) Has projectile or projectile core constructed entirely, excluding the presence of traces of other substances, from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium, or any equivalent material of similar density or hardness.
(2) Is primarily manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape, cross-sectional density, or any coating applied thereto, including, but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(c) "Body vest or shield" means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma protection for the wearer or holder.


Any relivant case law?

blacklisted
10-25-2005, 11:03 AM
18 USC 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."


I've been wondering about this myself recently, and from what I have seen, handgun ammunition that is specifically marketed as armor piercing is what the laws usually refer to.

(b) "Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily to penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has either of the following characteristics:
(1) Has projectile or projectile core constructed entirely, excluding the presence of traces of other substances, from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium, or any equivalent material of similar density or hardness.
(2) Is primarily manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape, cross-sectional density, or any coating applied thereto, including, but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.


The fact that it says "and" and not "or" gives me some hope here. But if the hunting bullets were tested for body armor penetration and are marketed to military/LE as such, then I think that they can be construed as have been designed for that purpose. I think that the "primarily" in "primarily designed" will definately not apply if the bullets are primarily designed for hunting, which they are. I don't know if any judges have yet interpreted the language in this particular statute, but isn't this similar if not the same as the federal law?

12320. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.

12321. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, manufactures, imports, sells, offers to sell, or knowingly transports any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.

I don't think any manufacturer would sell this stuff in California if they felt it was not legal.

I'd like to apologize in advance if this doesn't make any sense, because I have been lacking sleep lately due to school and I'm about to fall asleep right now. :)

M1A Rifleman
10-25-2005, 11:37 AM
AFAIK regarding this issue is that your both correct in that the laws were constructed to pertain to ammo maufactured to be AP through the use of coatings or internal structure.

However, the actual intent of the performance or use of the ammo means nothing, as the bureacrats in CA and elsewhere have tried with some success to outlaw any ammo that can punch through LEO vests etc. Recall the

- surplus Russian and Chinese 7.62 ammo that was deemed to be AP even though it was not designed as such

- Banning of the AR 15 type pistol (was used in Clear & Present Danger movie) since it uses 5.56 mm rifle ammo, it was deemed as a pistol that use AP ammo as rifle ammo goes through vests

- Ted Kennedy tried without success this year to ban ANY ammo that punches through LEO vests - this would have banned all rifle ammo


Basically we are sort of hanging by a thread in that the only thing that has kept arms and ammo available are the pro-gun groups, pro-gun politicians, some LEO types. Without their support we are SOL.

knight_dive
03-03-2006, 12:57 PM
I don't believe the Barnes bullets are made from Beryllium copper, but rather pure copper. Beryllium copper is a high performance, high hardness alloy used in non-sparking tools, cutting tools, and molds. I think it would be cost prohibitive to us Beryllium for bullet making and high hardness isn't a benefit for expanding bullets anyway.

Nothing I can confirm mind you, just my .02

jdberger
03-04-2006, 1:19 AM
I don't believe the Barnes bullets are made from Beryllium copper, but rather pure copper. Beryllium copper is a high performance, high hardness alloy used in non-sparking tools, cutting tools, and molds.

and golf clubs
http://www.golfkleinanzeigen.de/imgupload/a404-1.jpg