View Full Version : Movie Studio to get MGs
FeuerFrei
03-09-2009, 05:03 PM
Legal advice needed.
Question.
Can a private citizen of CA. create a movie company LLC/Trust or whatever to create "movies" of people/actors shooting various MGs on the movie companies property or elsewhere "on location"?
Would this allow MG possession and meet letter of the law.
What do you think? Possible?
bwiese
03-09-2009, 05:05 PM
You'd better be a real movie arms company and/or doing 'real' movies.
DOJ Dang. Weapons Permits are discretionary and are also renewed on a yearly basis and are audited so even if you got thru the hoops once, it'd only last a year or two max.
Real movies can be real bad.
I'm tempted to buy a red camera and do it.
FrankoUSA
03-09-2009, 05:12 PM
Put the movies on Youtube :lurk5:
bwiese
03-09-2009, 05:15 PM
You don't understand...
Your biz will be evaluated to even get the permit in the first place.
So you'd have to have some history, some funds, etc. to even get started.
Not worth the filing fee.
Although the idea of DOJ BoF-approved movie companies does raise interesting questions....
It's nice that the state of California sees Hollywood as a protected class of people.
AJAX22
03-09-2009, 05:22 PM
You don't understand...
Your biz will be evaluated to even get the permit in the first place.
So you'd have to have some history, some funds, etc. to even get started.
Not worth the filing fee.
Although the idea of DOJ BoF-approved movie companies does raise interesting questions....
It would be interesting to get a letter laying out the specific requirements for approval.
if we can get them to put it in writing, we can get it 'clarified' to the point where it may actually be do-able...
If a business depended on having the permit to continue to operate, could revocation of the permit constitute grounds for a civil tort for lost earnings?
I know some people in the biz. A camera and a little post production work should be able to convince anyone.
You might even be able to buy an existing production company for almost nothing if it doesn't have any valuable film rights or current projects.
Spaceghost
03-09-2009, 05:23 PM
I think I recall a member of this board complaining about how impossible it was to get a permit from the DOJ and he ran a real FX company. He was saying that since the DOJ wasn't letting any new companies get the required permits it created a monopoly for all the other companies that had them all ready. I also recall reading the new thing for many production companies is to film weapon intensive scenes out of State where the required permits and legal hoops are much easier to jump through anyways.
You don't understand...
Your biz will be evaluated to even get the permit in the first place.
So you'd have to have some history, some funds, etc. to even get started.
Not worth the filing fee.
Although the idea of DOJ BoF-approved movie companies does raise interesting questions....
thomasanelson
03-09-2009, 05:44 PM
As a movie armor I can tell you that CA requires an Entertainment Firearms Permit in order to "rent" guns from a movie rental house. It does not allow me to rent MGs. I would need to hire a Class 3 (? MG) FFL for those purposes. There are a few who work for the 6 rental houses. As an interesting side note, there are supposedly only four types of people who can be licensed to have MGs in CA. Federal LE, Military, Swat commanders of State LE and the 6 movie prop houses.
In the good old days, we would simply place our order and go pickup AK's and AR's.
thegratenate
03-09-2009, 06:50 PM
How long until someone decides to pursue legal action for this blatant discrimination? How many different ways are there to practice discrimination with one set of rules?
FeuerFrei
03-09-2009, 07:12 PM
Good feedback.
This is worth looking into.
Can they deny me the right to a legal occupation?
Can they discriminate based upon my business being profitable?
Who decides if the business is viable or not? DOJ?
It already sounds like a monopoly with regard to who is "allowed" a license.
Anybody should be allowed to create a legal business that generates any amount of money regardless of social/political or racial status.
This business would be created as a result of government mandated regulations and qualifications.
It cannot arbitrarily deny a citizen from starting a business. Even when all the requirements are fulfilled.
Maybe a lawyer can chime in.
curtisfong
03-09-2009, 07:23 PM
How long until someone decides to pursue legal action for this blatant discrimination? How many different ways are there to practice discrimination with one set of rules?
Never. California politicians are wholly owned by the entertainment industry. See also the MPAA/RIAA lobby.
JBBenson
03-09-2009, 07:28 PM
Can they deny me the right to a legal occupation?
Sort of. CA is not a "right to work" state. You often have to join a union to practice one's profession. I did. Legal extortion. Super annoying.
Thomasnelson is right, when I need guns on set I hire a prop master with an FFL. He/she often gets the weapons from a prop house in the valley. Then I get to play...uh, inspect them. Ahem.
Good idea, though.
bwiese
03-09-2009, 07:35 PM
You're forgetting that CA Dangerous Wpns Permits are entirely discretionary.
If they don't like they way you pick your nose you won't get one.
CSACANNONEER
03-09-2009, 07:35 PM
If you start a gun/movie company, you could legally charge actors with felonys to take roles involving them shooting. This is one of, if not the only way a felon can legally shoot in California!
thegratenate
03-09-2009, 10:24 PM
WTF,
Does the entire state of california think that entertainers are entitled to a separate set of rules?
What about all of those hippies who embrace the commune lifestyle, don't they think that we should all play by the same set of rules?
There are some threads that I just shouldn't open if I want to keep my hypertension under control.
yellowfin
03-09-2009, 10:45 PM
WTF,
Does the entire state of california think that entertainers are entitled to a separate set of rules?
What about all of those hippies who embrace the commune lifestyle, don't they think that we should all play by the same set of rules?
There are some threads that I just shouldn't open if I want to keep my hypertension under control.
They're probably not aware of it. I'd venture very few people know much about NFA laws in CA at all. Probably few non gunnies know about CCW law, or just about any of the topics we study here.
Cpl. Haas
03-09-2009, 11:20 PM
WTF,
Does the entire state of california think that entertainers are entitled to a separate set of rules?
Michael Bay throws cars through buildings, shuts down major LA freeway interchanges, and blows up more stuff in a day than Soldier415 will in his entire tour downrange (no offense to Soldier415, of course... Michael Bay is just crazier!)... Ridley Scott has rented UH-60 Blackhawks from the military, HH-65 Dolphins and boats from the Coast Guard, and National Guard personnel/equipment for his various films... and Steven Spielberg has purchased 747s, just to tear apart and strew across the Universal Backlot... not to mention the access to MGs, destructive devices, and other things not even folks in the free states can touch! The entertainment industry has also brought in over a billion dollars in revenue since the beginning of the year. Is it fair? I dunno... but Hollywood brings in the green, so exceptions are made. I'm sure if Bill Gates demanded a stealth fighter, they'd give him one of the old F-117As. :p
Prop houses are major businesses who make and spend major amounts of money. Independent Studio Services in Sunland is pretty much the only large-scale prop house in Hollywood that's not within the studio walls of Universal, Warner Brothers, etc. ISS also now has the largest weapons department now that Gibbons, Ltd. went out of business and ISS bought their stock. Gibbons was the largest cinema armory in the business, but they couldn't compete with the studio prop houses and ISS... all of whom rented other props. Most production designers just didn't want to make the extra trip out to Pasadena for guns... they could just walk downstairs at ISS and stop by the gun vault.
Part of the "good cause" requirement for the Dangerous Weapons Permit requires letters of recommendation from movie studios and production companies expressing an interest in renting from you. I was talking to John in the ISS weapons room a few months back about the likelihood of someone who didn't own an established production company getting an FFL, and he said if one of the letters of recommendation wasn't printed on Universal letterhead, the applicant had a snowball's chance in hell...
While the concept of setting up a small armory to cater to the entertainment industry sounds nifty in theory, the actual time and money needed to make it possible just isn't realistic if the payoff is to get some MGs. You'd need to rent the business property, purchase the weapons, hire someone to modify all the guns so that they can't fire live rounds and will properly cycle blank ammunition, buy or modify company vehicles that can securely transport the guns to and from sets and are approved by DOJ (John jokingly mentioned a Ford Focus with a safe welded in the trunk wouldn't cut it), and hire people who have documented experience working with firearms and can be trained how to supervise their use on movie sets (LEOs, military, instructors, etc).
And after all that, even if you get the permit, you might still go out of business because everyone will continue renting from ISS where larger inventory and better selections means a rental price you'll never be able to compete with.
And all for some cool guns that have modified barrels and can't fire anything but blanks anyway.
Is it doable? Sure...
Is it realistic? I don't think so.
Prop houses are major businesses who make and spend major amounts of money.
I know money talks and I know Hollywood money in California really talks but why should they get certain rights because of their occupation? California politicians are good at hiding discrimination behind the veil of public safety.
Seesm
03-10-2009, 02:00 AM
As a movie armor I can tell you that CA requires an Entertainment Firearms Permit in order to "rent" guns from a movie rental house. It does not allow me to rent MGs. I would need to hire a Class 3 (? MG) FFL for those purposes. There are a few who work for the 6 rental houses. As an interesting side note, there are supposedly only four types of people who can be licensed to have MGs in CA. Federal LE, Military, Swat commanders of State LE and the 6 movie prop houses.
In the good old days, we would simply place our order and go pickup AK's and AR's.
I have worked on a few low budget movies over the years doing stunts and was contacted by another Cal Gunner or maybe I replied like this (I forget) to his needs and wants of guns on his ULB movie set. I contaced my coordinator buddy was told he needed a licensed weapons wrangler I think is what it is called and I suspect someone like thomasanelson is "that" guy.... Glad to have you on here!! I know you want to do it right as if not you could end up in jail or killing someone... (to the OP)
NSR500
03-10-2009, 02:05 AM
I don't know how true this is, but I heard that the Porn Industry kinda killed the party with the MGs. That is why the DOJ started cracking down on these Entertainment Gun prop suppiers.
Scotty
03-10-2009, 07:22 AM
You could go into the manufacturing sector. The company I work for got a Type 10 license and I'm pretty sure a Class 2 permit also for some products we will be building. It only took about a month after they applied for it.
I didn't think that movie guns were required to fire only blanks.
They probably do that for safety concerns but I didn't think it was legislated.
Hkfanatic
03-10-2009, 07:39 AM
i have often wondered about this, say i wanted to start a legitamate buis. to MFG. firearms. including post samples for LE/mil and perform gunsmithing on registered NFA items.
now i jump through all the hoops, get my 02/07 FFL's get everything situated on a federal level. pay my SOT fee's etc...
because the permits are discressionary they can deny me the permits because they dont like me???? even if my buisness is 100% legit in the eyes of the federal gov. and in any other state i could conduct buissnes without an issue.
they can still within their power deny me right????
thomasanelson
03-10-2009, 08:38 AM
I didn't think that movie guns were required to fire only blanks.
They probably do that for safety concerns but I didn't think it was legislated.
As far as I know, they don't and aren't. Usuallly semi auto (and full auto for that matter) have "narrowed" barrels to allow for enough pressure to cycle properly. Revolvers, bolt action and single shot guns are usually un-altered. Even for those that are altered, it usually only requires changing the barrel to have a fully functioning firearm......this is probably why it requires a license for property masters (armors) to rent.
freakshow10mm
03-10-2009, 08:43 AM
As an interesting side note, there are supposedly only four types of people who can be licensed to have MGs in CA. Federal LE, Military, Swat commanders of State LE and the 6 movie prop houses.
That isn't true.
Cpl. Haas
03-10-2009, 09:17 AM
I didn't think that movie guns were required to fire only blanks.
They probably do that for safety concerns but I didn't think it was legislated.
You're right that it's not required to have the firearms altered... I should have been more clear. As stated above, semi-auto and full-auto firearms are modified with "cones" in the barrel in order to properly cycle blank ammo. Bolt-actions, revolvers, shotguns, and grenade launchers are unaltered.
While it's not illegal to keep unaltered barrels lying around, it would require purchasing a second barrel for each gun, since the original is altered in-house.
On a side-note: I find it kinda absurd that I've gone through the background check for the Entertainment Firearms Permit, can walk into ISS, load up my trunk with rifles, pistols, and shotguns, and drive away... Yet I still have to wait 10 days to pick-up my new .22 rifle. Really, DOJ? :confused:
CSACANNONEER
03-10-2009, 03:41 PM
I didn't think that movie guns were required to fire only blanks.
They probably do that for safety concerns but I didn't think it was legislated.
I have been on sets where the actors have live fired the same gun that they use to fire blanks from. This is one way to help the actor know what the recoil is supposed to feel like.
b.faust
03-10-2009, 03:46 PM
I work in film, and it's been my experience that there is an on sight armorer who checks the weapons out, loads them, gives them to the actor, re-checks them between every shoot, collects them, signs them all back in and locks them up for the night.
Any "non-firing" scenes always use dummy weapons to make it easier.
Case in point, I was on the movie "Constantine" and wanted to get the 'holy shotgun' in my office to build a CG proxy.
No dice. It was a 'real working weapon' and I couldn't get it near me without the armorer standing right there.
That's just my experience.
B.
I wonder what would happen if we arranged to become part owners in ISS and open a location in somewhere like Fresno with a big private range?
Cpl. Haas
03-10-2009, 04:53 PM
I work in film, and it's been my experience that there is an on sight armorer who checks the weapons out, loads them, gives them to the actor, re-checks them between every shoot, collects them, signs them all back in and locks them up for the night.
Any "non-firing" scenes always use dummy weapons to make it easier.
Yup... anytime there is a blank-fire adapted gun on set, there is an armorer within arm's reach of it; no raiding crafts services while the scene is being rehearsed and shot. I always make it a point to ensure there are one or two rubber, airsoft, or demilled guns on set for each BFA gun being used... that way if they need to run through a scene, I give 'em the rubber/airsoft/demilled gun to use and stand by to take it back as soon as they finish running the scene. Minimises the risk of damage to the gun, or the very unlikely chance that a blank round could somehow make its way into the gun when it wasn't supposed to be there.
The producer I like to work with was at Indian Dunes, on the set of the Twilight Zone Movie, when John Landis ordered live 12 gauge rounds fired in the vicinity of Vic Morrow in order to obtain a realistic foliage shredding effect... he quit the night before the helicopter crashed and decapitated Morrow and the two children. Needless to say, he takes set safety pretty seriously. Makes it easier to do my job without fighting with the director over why the actor can't just put the BFA gun in his mouth...
I wonder what would happen if we arranged to become part owners in ISS and open a location in somewhere like Fresno with a big private range?
They'd probably say something along the lines of "Why? We have about a dozen semi trailers that can be loaded and shipped anywhere... what film opportunities are there in Fresno that would make opening a new facility less than 5 hours away worth it?"
It's not a McDonalds... they're not looking to franchise.
Kid Stanislaus
03-10-2009, 06:15 PM
It's nice that the state of California sees Hollywood as a protected class of people.
Yeah, it just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!;)
As a movie armor I can tell you that CA requires an Entertainment Firearms Permit in order to "rent" guns from a movie rental house. It does not allow me to rent MGs. I would need to hire a Class 3 (? MG) FFL for those purposes. There are a few who work for the 6 rental houses. As an interesting side note, there are supposedly only four types of people who can be licensed to have MGs in CA. Federal LE, Military, Swat commanders of State LE and the 6 movie prop houses.
In the good old days, we would simply place our order and go pickup AK's and AR's.
Local regular LE guys get issued MG's all the time and i know there are 3 people that do not run a prop house licensed to handle MG's.
blackrazor
03-10-2009, 08:42 PM
I know a guy who does this, he rents out loads of guns to Hollywood on a regular basis, has dozens upon dozens of class III stuff, it's incredible. If you've got the funds, this is the easiest way to get your hands on ANYTHING you can imagine, not just the transferable stuff, but anything. Course, this guy is now on the Malibu city council... go figure.
cmaynes
03-10-2009, 10:54 PM
As someone who deals with movie guns a fair amount, I can say that ISS/Gibbons did have all the Class 3 Federal paperwork together, they also did have both live fire, and blank-converted weapons, as well as dummies. BUT Gibbons was restricted to pre 1986 weapons (as far as I know) whereas ISS was/is a dealer for a number of product lines such as HK and Milkor. the first 416 I actually shot was an ISS live fire prop.
It is a fools errand to think one could waltz in to the prop gun biz- even if you could get the paperwork done, it would cost millions to build any sort of useful inventory of military weapons given the current prices....
I guess one could say the Obama Presidency has the made the gun business very profitably lately....
Moving to Nevada would be about a million times easier. And has all sorts of other benefits as well-- like no income tax and shall issue CCW...
Gunaria
03-10-2009, 10:57 PM
CalGuns the Movie coming this Summer 2009.
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