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Jonathan Doe
03-09-2009, 11:52 AM
I need help from the fellow Calgunners on identifying a bullet shown below. It is my case work and I cannot find the info on this bullet. It is a JHP and looks like a Black Talon, but the base in enclosed and tip has I believe 8 points. I contacted the Winchester and they said it is not their bullet. This may be from Fiocchi.

Anyone seen this kind bullet before? Do you have any of them? Any help will be greatly appreciated. If you don't want to be public, you can PM me.

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/5topgun/Bullet1pic01.jpg

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/5topgun/Bullet2pic01.jpg

Fjold
03-09-2009, 12:37 PM
Most JHPs have enclosed bases.

Jonathan Doe
03-09-2009, 12:49 PM
This particular one has enclosed base, but has black coating on the bullet just like Black Talon bullets. But bullet base of the Talon has open base with exposed lead. That is what puzzled me.

anyracoon
03-09-2009, 3:47 PM
Could have been "Moly Coated" What caliber?

Jonathan Doe
03-09-2009, 4:19 PM
Could have been "Moly Coated" What caliber?

It is 9mm Luger caliber and it is not reload I believe. There were Remington and G.F.L head stamp cartridge cases.

Jonathan Doe
03-09-2009, 5:51 PM
Where's Micro Stamping when we need it ? ;)

Maybe we need it in this case.:mad:

bohoki
03-09-2009, 5:54 PM
gfl contrary to popular opinion is not "gangsta for life"

if it fiocchi

so it might be this

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/33395-5.html

what is its weight (it looks mostly intact)

Jonathan Doe
03-09-2009, 6:26 PM
gfl contrary to popular opinion is not "gangsta for life"

if it fiocchi

so it might be this

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/33395-5.html

what is its weight (it looks mostly intact)

The description said it is 115 grains. My bullet is 124 grains. Anyone has any idea what this is?

Fate
03-09-2009, 6:57 PM
Does the GFL case have a NATO cross on it? Possible Fiocci Italian military surplus?

kermit
03-09-2009, 7:01 PM
Is the jacket steel? It could be some old german 9mm:

b. Pist. Patr. 08 S. m. E.

The cartridge case of this standard 9-mm semi-armor-piercing ammunition is the same as the ball ammunition, but the bullet has an iron or mild-steel core and a steel jacket. This ammunition may be identified by the black coloring of the bullet.
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-infantry-weapons/pistol-ammunition.html

Jonathan Doe
03-09-2009, 7:34 PM
The cases does not have the NATO cross, and it is a copper jacket with black coating. Cartridge cases found at the scene are R-P and G.F.L. I am still researching it, but I am coming up with nothing. Again, it is JHP with black coating like Black Talon and closed base. Someone somewhere have seen this. Come on, fess up.

USN CHIEF
03-09-2009, 7:43 PM
The cases does not have the NATO cross, and it is a copper jacket with black coating. Cartridge cases found at the scene are R-P and G.F.L. I am still researching it, but I am coming up with nothing. Again, it is JHP with black coating like Black Talon and closed base. Someone somewhere have seen this. Come on, fess up.

On advise from from Hoffmang, I take the 5th..:eek::D Besides, I was at home with my mom when this thing went down...

nick
03-09-2009, 7:58 PM
I'm still looking for pictures, but Fiocchi did make 123gr (not 124gr) black-coated bullets. They copied them from Winchester.

nick
03-09-2009, 8:01 PM
JHP bullets, of course :)

nick
03-09-2009, 8:07 PM
Also, maybe you should post it here, I'd expect there to be a lot of ammo buffs on this site:

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/

nick
03-09-2009, 8:08 PM
Finally, check what Chief's been reloading lately. I can't prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, but he's a shady character, being in the NAvy and all, and it's just like him to paint his bullets black :)

naimad
03-09-2009, 9:06 PM
http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php?topic=1618.0

chuck762
03-09-2009, 9:18 PM
Kinda looks like a PMC Starfire bullet but they aren't black as far as I know or at least the older ones i have aren't. Just a wild guess

Dr Rockso
03-09-2009, 9:27 PM
http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php?topic=1618.0
I think we may have a winner:
http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1618.0;attach=2789 ;image

nick
03-09-2009, 9:34 PM
The one he's got has smaller "teeth".

Dr Rockso
03-09-2009, 9:39 PM
The one he's got has smaller "teeth".
You might be right, kind of hard to tell. The one linked by naimad (picture above) says it's a bullet weight of 6.0g which is only about 93 grains...

nick
03-09-2009, 9:42 PM
I'm still trying to find the pictures of that 123 gr Fiocchi JHP that supposedly had black coating, per this guy on Glocktalk:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10855942

Dr Rockso
03-09-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm still trying to find the pictures of that 123 gr Fiocchi JHP that supposedly had black coating, per this guy on Glocktalk:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10855942
The guy who posted that is LE per his profile, I bet topgun could contact him if he needs more info about the ammo.

NeoWeird
03-09-2009, 10:52 PM
Alright, I may have some GOOD news for you.

I did some searching with my google-fu and everything point to the Black Talons and the SXTs, which only had 6 points and the open base. That is until I stumbled across this:

The Winchester XSZ:
http://www.gunpundit.com/2008/winchester_sxz.jpg

Now I couldn't find any information or pictures on whether it's base is open or not, however EVERYONE agrees it is the exact same bullet as the SXT except EVERY picture I could find of it shows it with 8 or 9 distinct jagged edged points instead of the 6 soft rounded points of the SXT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/DSCF1279.jpg
http://media.basspro.com/images/articles/sxz1.jpg
http://hires.basspro.com/is/servlet/izoom/BassPro/751-620-61person?layer=comp&wid=500&hei=500&fmt=jpeg&qlt=100,0&op_sharpen=0&resMode=trilin&op_usm=0.0,1.0,0.0,0&iccEmbed=0

NOW FOR THE GREAT NEWS:

From what I could find, it is specifically loaded for and sold exclussively by Bass Pro Shop. If these are in fact the bullets, you've now narrowed down where they came from to a relatively small sample of possible locations, and based on distancelocation, probably only one or two probable locations.

Here's hoping you are that lucky.

ETA: I just looked at BassProShop.com and the 9mm variety only come in 115 grain. You postive that's a 124 grain bullet?

Dr Rockso
03-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Those do look similar, but I don't think it's the same bullet
-topgun said he contacted Winchester who said it wasn't theirs
-115 gr vs 124 gr
-casings were stamped R-P or G.F.L. (Remington or Fiocchi)

My money is on the 123 gr Fiocchis that Nick found referenced on Glocktalk.

NeoWeird
03-10-2009, 12:01 AM
Those do look similar, but I don't think it's the same bullet
-topgun said he contacted Winchester who said it wasn't theirs
-115 gr vs 124 gr
-casings were stamped R-P or G.F.L. (Remington or Fiocchi)

My money is on the 123 gr Fiocchis that Nick found referenced on Glocktalk.

I know there are several inconsistancies, but at the same time all it would take is for a 9mm revolver to be used so the Winchester casings weren't left behind (it would be nice to know if there were more than two types of bullets recovered), and for Winchester to have overlooked this specialty brand of ammo. The 115 v 124 grain is the only dead kicker, and that's why I asked if he was dead sure.

Like I said in my first post, I thought I had it until I checked BPS and saw the grain. Watch him pull out a 9 gr pebble from the HP cavity and me be right. now that would be funny.

naimad
03-10-2009, 9:58 AM
This sounds like the stuff

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=8713

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 11:40 AM
Did any company make a black coated bullets other than Black Talon at all?

rtlltj
03-10-2009, 1:42 PM
Was that pulled out of someone's body or just found outside?

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 2:10 PM
Was that pulled out of someone's body or just found outside?

It appeared that they didn't go through soft tissue. I have spoken to several companies and they are pointing toward the Hornady TAP ammo. Does anyone on Calguns have Hornady black coated bullets?

Fate
03-10-2009, 3:06 PM
This thread shows that CSI is bullpuckey! By now, Grissom et al would have been able to read the scratches on the bullet and determine make, model of the handgun and likely what the shooter ate for breakfast that day. :D

Sounds like we're getting closer.

ivanimal
03-10-2009, 3:12 PM
El Dorado used to make a bullet called starfire, it is now marketed by PMC

http://www.pmcammo.com/cms/spaw2/uploads/files/Starfire-bullet-expand.gif

http://www.pmcammo.com/starfire.html

http://www.arizonagunrunners.com/Products/pmcammo/starfire.jpg

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 3:45 PM
This thread shows that CSI is bullpuckey! By now, Grissom et al would have been able to read the scratches on the bullet and determine make, model of the handgun and likely what the shooter ate for breakfast that day. :D

Sounds like we're getting closer.

Of course I know which pistol fired the bullet. :cool2: I just have not seen this particular bullet and trying to find out who manufactured / marketed the bullet. I have the pistol to compared it to also. I am surprised that with 1,000's of members here, no one can identify the bullet. Usually, you guys are good at it.

Dr Rockso
03-10-2009, 4:09 PM
Of course I know which pistol fired the bullet. :cool2: I just have not seen this particular bullet and trying to find out who manufactured / marketed the bullet. I have the pistol to compared it to also. I am surprised that with 1,000's of members here, no one can identify the bullet. Usually, you guys are good at it.
Just curious why you ruled out the Fioncci 123gr black coated ammo referenced on the THR and Glocktalk threads, supposedly they look almost exactly like Black Talons. Hard to tell since nobody seems to have a picture posted, but it seems consistent with the G.F.L. headstamps. Maybe you could try PMing the guy on glocktalk (Mwinter) who said he has a few.

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 4:53 PM
Just curious why you ruled out the Fioncci 123gr black coated ammo referenced on the THR and Glocktalk threads, supposedly they look almost exactly like Black Talons. Hard to tell since nobody seems to have a picture posted, but it seems consistent with the G.F.L. headstamps. Maybe you could try PMing the guy on glocktalk (Mwinter) who said he has a few.

I am not ruling out anything. I tried the thread, but I could not see the photo of the bullet. It was not coming up. Can you possibly post it?

Dr Rockso
03-10-2009, 5:12 PM
I am not ruling out anything. I tried the thread, but I could not see the photo of the bullet. It was not coming up. Can you possibly post it?
I spent a little bit looking but couldn't find any photos. Keep in mind that the thread is 'old/rare/weird ammo', it's possible that particular Fiocchi ammo just didn't make it to the US in significant quantities. But hey, at least there's somebody out there with some of it in their possession.

b.faust
03-10-2009, 5:19 PM
Could they have been custom reloads?
(i.e. the 'black coating')

Jonathan Doe
03-10-2009, 6:15 PM
I will be calling Fiocchi USA and Hornady tomorrow. I spoke to a technician at Cheaper Than Dirt and they haven't seen them either. I called them because they sell a lot of different types of ammo. I will try to post a better picture with better focused bullet.

CSACANNONEER
03-10-2009, 6:35 PM
Are you sure they were not reloads? Did the primers in the recovered brass have sealer on them? Have you checked the powder residue in the cases to determine what kind of powder was used? (Just kidding) But, the primer sealant would strongly point to factory primmed brass at least and, probably to factory ammo. Also, from what a buddy of mine (who works for Ventura County doing the same thing you do) told me, even factory bullets have slightly different lead mixtures in them. So, it would follow that bullet weights could also vary a grain or two. Also, it could have been manufactured by a smaller ammunition manufacturer using new primed brass and whatever bullets they could get.

Jonathan Doe
03-12-2009, 4:33 PM
The brass had red sealer on them and the primer looked to be brass coated. It looked very odd. I have spoken to Hornady re:TAP bullets and Fiocchi today and no luck. Fiocchi said it may have been a product line for just the Europe a long time ago, but he didn't have any data. It was so old.

SDgarrick
03-12-2009, 4:50 PM
:popcorn: