CGF Coalition Lawsuit: DC Handgun Roster

[hoffmang]

Today in cooperation with Alan Gura and SAF, we filed this complaint (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/dc-roster/Hanson-v-DC-Complaint-2009-03-09.pdf) in the District of Columbia stating that the California Handgun Roster, as adopted by the District of Columbia, is unconstitutional.

There are three guns and issues at issue in this case.

1. An XD-45 Tactical Bi-Tone which couldn't be rostered because it's a different color than its rostered functional identical equivalents.

2. A Para P13 that was once rostered but fell off when Para Ordnance didn't pay the annual fee.

3. A Buntline style High Standard 9 shot .22 revolver - the same gun that the Supreme Court ordered DC to register in DC v. Heller.

Here is the press release (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/dc-roster/DC-Handgun-Roster-PR-2009-03-09.pdf) that went over the wire minutes ago:



SAF CHALLENGES D.C. HANDGUN BAN SCHEME


For 
Immediate 
Release:
 
 
 
 
 Contact:

 Alan
 Gottlieb
 (425)
454*-7012

BELLEVUE, WA – The Second Amendment Foundation and three Washington, D.C. residents today filed a lawsuit challenging a regulation by District of Columbia city government that arbitrarily bans handguns based on a roster of “acceptable” handguns approved by the State of California.

The District is using this list despite a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court last summer that protects handguns “that ordinary people traditionally use for self-defense.” This scheme could eventually bar the ownership of any new handguns.

Attorney Alan Gura, representing the plaintiffs in this case, noted that District bureaucrats “told Tracy Ambeau Hanson her gun was the wrong color.” Americans are not limited to a government list of approved books, or approved religions, he said. A handgun protected by the Second Amendment doesn’t need to appear on any government-approved list either.

“The Springfield XD-45 is approved for sale in Washington,” Gura noted, “so long as it is black, green, or brown, but her bi-tone version is supposedly ‘unsafe’.”

Added SAF founder Alan Gottlieb, “The Supreme Court’s decision is crystal clear: Handguns that are used by people for self-defense and other lawful purposes cannot be banned, whether the city likes it or not. The city needs to accept the Second Amendment reality and stop this nonsense.”

Hanson, one of the individual plaintiffs in the case, wondered, “Do we really need a gun-fashion police? I just want to be able to exercise my Second Amendment rights without interference from the District government.”

Joining Hanson are Gillian and Paul St. Lawrence. Gillian St. Lawrence’s handgun would once have been allowed, until its listing expired, leaving her to observe, “I didn’t realize that my constitutional rights had an expiration date.”

Her husband sought to own the same type of handgun that the Supreme Court had ordered District officials to allow Dick Heller to possess. However, that particular model is no longer manufactured, and its maker is no longer available to process the handgun’s certification through the bureaucracy.

“The Supreme Court’s decision should really be the last word on whether I can own this model handgun,” said Mr. St. Lawrence.

“The so-called ‘safe’ gun list is just another gun-grabbing gimmick,” said Gura. “This is the same old, tried and failed D.C. handgun ban by another name. The city can’t get around the Second Amendment by declaring most normal guns ‘unsafe,’ and gradually shrinking the number of so-called ‘safe’ guns to zero.”

Valuable assistance is being provided by the CalGuns Foundation.

“CalGuns Foundation was saddened to see the California Handgun Roster adopted in D.C.,” CalGuns Chairman Gene Hoffman added. “Our state has a reputation as being a leader on many fronts. Unfortunately, this has included violating the rights of law abiding gun owners. After nearly a decade ofexperience with the California Handgun Roster, the CalGuns Foundation is uniquely able to assist in this case.”

The Second Amendment Foundation (www.saf.org) is the nation’s oldest and largest tax-exempt education, research, publishing and legal action group focusing on the Constitutional right and heritage to privately own and possess firearms. Founded in 1974, The Foundation has grown to more than 600,000 members and supporters and conducts many programs designed to better inform the public about the consequences of gun control.

-END-


Special thanks to the following Calgunners.

1. Brett Thomas/the_quark: Realizing that Heller's gun wasn't registerable in DC.

2. Ivan Pena/Ivanimal: Making a personal sacrifice to this case.

3. Two CGN'ers who wish to remain nameless: They want to remain "lowpro" but they were indispensable helping pull these guns together.


These things take a lot of work and a lot of money. The work on the CGF side is all volunteer. With that I would ask each and every one of you to consider a donation to the Calguns Foundation (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate) to help us offset expenses so far and moving forward. We plan to bring this to a victory and repatriate the decision to California.

And thus we begin the CGF offense.

-Gene

[7x57]

Heh, heh, heh. Smashing through the low countries on the way to the backside of the Maginot line? Naw, that'd never work. :43:

7x57

[MudCamper]

What's the time line on this? And Gene, if you had to guess, what will be the most likely outcome? And if we win this in DC, could it help us with the roster here in CA?

[pavlov]

This is great news. Keep up the good works guys!

[wolf13]

Great news!

[wash]

This is very pleasing to me.

I like your little fib.

I will try to donate a little more at the San Jose gun show.

[yellowfin]

I can't wait to see what possible nonsense the other side has to argue this.

[7x57]

What's the time line on this? And Gene, if you had to guess, what will be the most likely outcome? And if we win this in DC, could it help us with the roster here in CA?

Let's try to guess at the reasoning behind this.

Think of it as getting the roster declared unconstitutional without having to wait for incorporation to challenge it in CA. Then, when the 2A is incorporated against the states, we already have a ruling that it violates the 2A rather than having to start there. It saves a step, and litigation steps seem to take years.

It is not the same circuit, but if the DC circuit finds it unconstitutional, that should carry some weight in the ninth circuit. I also wonder if it will be easier to get it struck down in this context as well. The fact that it bans Dick Heller's exact gun seems to make the point really really well. At least, it's terribly ironic.

7x57

[Liberty1]

Three Cheers!!!

[sorensen440]

This is refreshing to hear !

[383green]

Wow, Gene, you weren't exaggerating about that Liberty Bell comparison! I feel like a maroon for not anticipating this action!

:patriot:

[Can'thavenuthingood]

Geeez I love this place:)
And I was just thinking the forums have been a bit less exciting the last few days.

I saw that term 'coalition' and got all excited all over again.
Love teamwork.

Vick

[nick]

NIce. Well, the lawsuits take money... And I have a paycheck coming in this week...

[383green]

Making a wild guess here: Will this case be called Hanson et. al. v. DC, and just Hanson for short?

ETA: Durr, never mind. I should have read the actual complaint.

[Racefiend]

I like the way CGF operates :) I feel all warm and tingly being able to experience the rebuilding of our 2nd amendment one step at a time.

[hoffmang]

Gents,

Here is an excellent story by Mike Stollenwork (http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m3d9-Federal-law-suit-filed-after-DC-refuses-to-register-handgun-because-its-the-wrong-color), who is also doing heavy lifting on this case. He has photos and backgrounds of the Plaintiffs.

We're at stage 1 of a federal lawsuit. It will take time for a decision to be rendered in the District Court.

A ruling that the CA Handgun Roster is unconstitutional in the DC Circuit will be highly persuasive sister circuit jurisprudence.

-Gene

[Liberty1]

Gents,

Here is an excellent story by Mike Stollenwork (http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m3d9-Federal-law-suit-filed-after-DC-refuses-to-register-handgun-because-its-the-wrong-color), who is also doing heavy lifting on this case. He has photos and backgrounds of the Plaintiffs.

We're at stage 1 of a federal lawsuit. It will take time for a decision to be rendered in the District Court.

A ruling that the CA Handgun Roster is unconstitutional in the DC Circuit will be highly persuasive sister circuit jurisprudence.

-Gene

Ha, I just sent Mike a message about this Breaking News. I should have known he was involved.

Hanson's gun the WRONG (http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m3d9-Federal-law-suit-filed-after-DC-refuses-to-register-handgun-because-its-the-wrong-color) color? That is rich in the age of Obama!

[glockman19]

You could also add a couple of Kimbers to the list that have identical working parts to ones on the list, but maybe different color/finish or grips.

Greta news.

If it is found unconstitutional in DC...How does that help us here? will it establish that our list is unconstitutional too?

[domokun]

Down with the roster! :43:

[7x57]

Hanson's gun the WRONG (http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m3d9-Federal-law-suit-filed-after-DC-refuses-to-register-handgun-because-its-the-wrong-color) color. That is rich in the age of Obama!

For those that didn't click, Hanson is a black woman. :rofl2:

Hmm. D'ya suppose she has a dream that someday all guns will be accepted regardless of color? I'm just sayin'. :43:

Hey, maybe we can figure out how to get the DC council to make gun owners ride in the back of the bus? Nah, probably even they aren't that stupid. :(

7x57

[wash]

After reading the article, I hope someone from CGF can personally thank all of the plaintiffs for their participation in this matter.

We are rooting for them!

[trashman]

Great news, Gene - just saw the post on ofarmsandthelaw...

--Neill

[bwiese]

You could also add a couple of Kimbers to the list that have identical working parts to ones on the list, but maybe different color/finish or grips.

Yes, I'm sure this is applicable to Kimber. But both ParaOrdnance & Springfield Armory are the worst in this regard - both changed SKUs/model #s every time they sneezed - sometimes even if the gun itself didn't change (but was part of a 'package', say, with extra mags or holster, etc.) If you look at Roster traffic over a several year period, you'll see a huge number of Paras & Springers go on & off the list. Browning Buckmark and Ruger Mk??? 22LR auto pistols also have their share of Roster traffic due to trivial changes.


If it is found unconstitutional in DC...How does that help us here? will it establish that our list is unconstitutional too?

Like Gene said, the finding in a DC circuit that the Roster is BS will have 'great weight' out here. Going thru DC was, happily, a short circuit that nicely presented itself at the right time.

I believe this will also help stop spreading CA laws further in other states - no more "let's just copy CA's laws". This can open up a whole 'nuther round of screwups.

[7x57]

I believe this will also help stop spreading CA laws further in other states - no more "let's just copy CA's laws". This can open up a whole 'nuther round of screwups.

I hadn't thought of that, but I sure hope so. It may seem a bit disloyal, but having come to California from America keeping CA laws from metastasizing to the rest of the body is almost more important to me than getting rid of them here. As I told my father-in-law once, "you may not plan to ever live in California, but California will come looking for you."

7x57

[tiki]

I certainly enjoyed reading this, but I doubt it will have much effect. Personally I think with Pelosi and Feinstein over there, we'll probably see the roster requirement go away in D.C. before this hits SCOTUS. I can't imagine they would go ahead with this case knowing that it has virtually no chance of being upheld by SCOTUS.
Of course I hope that it does go to the judges, but I'm not holding my breath on this one. We'll probably see the CA list get challenged in the 9th after incorporation. I think they may go with it for a while to see if the makeup of the court changes in a year or so, but I doubt they will take it to the current court.

[10001110101]

Just dropped another donation to CGF after reading.

This just brings a big grin to my face. :D

Paul Helmke's reaction probably went something like this: :confused: :eek: :mad:

A big thanks to all involved! :thumbsup:

[xxdabroxx]

This is good news, but i could see DC dropping the idea of the roster prior to it getting to some judges. I hope that it does make it to the court room, but either way it is a win. Great job guys, if all the 2A groups were as proactive as CGF, think of where we would be now.

So DC said, where California did not, that you cannot possess a non-rostered handgun; because they will only issue permits for handguns on california's roster?

I like that the Chief of Police is being sued both as an individual and in her official capacities. (keep other gun grabbers from getting bright ideas so quickly)

[grammaton76]

Oh, c'mon, we want DC to adopt as many CA laws as possible now, particularly when they're lifted word-for-word from our statutes.

Heck, in DC you get to go straight up to federal.

[Flintlock Tom]

Gene,
I take my hat off to you and the team that put this together.

Donation sent.

[M. D. Van Norman]

And thus we begin the CGF offense.

Outstanding!

[blackberg]

one word: Woot!

-bb

[thedrickel]

Good work Gene and crew. Too bad the Glock21SF w/ ambi mag release didn't make the cut tho.

[Monte]

This is a pleasant surprise. Thanks to everyone involved. Good work, as always.

[12voltguy]

Gents,

Here is an excellent story by Mike Stollenwork (http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m3d9-Federal-law-suit-filed-after-DC-refuses-to-register-handgun-because-its-the-wrong-color), who is also doing heavy lifting on this case. He has photos and backgrounds of the Plaintiffs.

We're at stage 1 of a federal lawsuit. It will take time for a decision to be rendered in the District Court.

A ruling that the CA Handgun Roster is unconstitutional in the DC Circuit will be highly persuasive sister circuit jurisprudence.

-Gene


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A BIG THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hoffmang]

This is good news, but i could see DC dropping the idea of the roster prior to it getting to some judges. I hope that it does make it to the court room, but either way it is a win.

DC now can't moot this case directly as they could always re-institute the requirement. However, if Congress passes the DC voting rights act that strips DC of gun control power, we could be mooted.

I'm ok with that as I'd prefer to end DC being recalcitrant. However, it doesn't look like the Federal bill will pass so we'll happily have California's Roster ruled unconstitutional in the DC Circuit.

-Gene

[yellowfin]

I hadn't thought of that, but I sure hope so. It may seem a bit disloyal, but having come to California from America keeping CA laws from metastasizing to the rest of the body is almost more important to me than getting rid of them here. As I told my father-in-law once, "you may not plan to ever live in California, but California will come looking for you."

7x57 I have a very long fight ahead of me to get that message to Pennsylvanians to help the fight in NY.

[thedrickel]

BTW whoever came up with the idea to use the XD-45 Bi-tone is a ****in genius!!! ;)

[nobody_special]

I am intrigued by your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Oh wait -- I'm already signed up for Calguns alerts.

Woooo-hooo! Way to go guys. :thumbsup: I've been wondering when this would happen. :D

[dirtyJ]

Aww, this is one of my favorite talking points to pro and anti gun people alike! Now you're gonna do away with it and make me have to change my nice little script I've got made up. Yeesh, make it harder for the little guy :). (no seriously, awesome stuff here :))

[IGOTDIRT4U]

BTW whoever came up with the idea to use the XD-45 Bi-tone is a ****in genius!!! ;)


Yeah, it's like the Kimber Warrior II is legal in CA, but the Desert Warrior is not on the list although it is the same gun, different color.

Good work guys. Timing is great. DC now gets to defend another costly suit or give up. And then comes Nordyke.

[CapS]

It's been said before, but I don't care:
Having all the abovementioned (and anonymous) stalwarts on our side is a gift that keeps on giving!

An old mantra that I remember from some part or another of my misspent youth says, "With minds like these, we could rule the universe!"

I'm very glad you guys are on our side.

/Cap :tank:

[wash]

I just got done reading the complaint linked in the first post.

It's a very good read and goes in to further detail about why that Bi-tone XD isn't on the CA list. The reason for it's inclusion in the case is even better than the coincidence of Obama's parentage.

That and the High Standard revolver were very well and carefully chosen.

[tgriffin]

Hmmmm. Any possibility for California Heller incorporation being accelerated as a result of this?

Either way, well done CGF.

[thedrickel]

It's too bad Heller just wouldn't sell HIS Hi-Standard to another DC resident . . . that would have been the perfect example.

[xxdabroxx]

I was a little unclear on that, did they give heller a pass on the high standard, but not the rest of the citizens?

[CaliforniaCarry]

I was a little unclear on that, did they give heller a pass on the high standard, but not the rest of the citizens?

Yes. It sounds like DC did, in fact, let Heller register his revolver, but then enacted this law that prevents other citizens from registering the same.

[fairfaxjim]

Oh, c'mon, we want DC to adopt as many CA laws as possible now, particularly when they're lifted word-for-word from our statutes.

Heck, in DC you get to go straight up to federal.

+1 Mayor Fenty and gang could be the best thing that ever happend to CA gun owners if they keep it up long enough. That saves tons of legal time and effort.

Gene, Bill, et. al., when do you guys sleep? I can't even find time to read and study all the action that has gone down lately. Keep up the good work!

[Liberty1]

And don't forget to donate like they vote in Chicago, early and often!

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate

[Joe]

tagged

great work guys!

[B Strong]

The type of work that the CGF is doing in this case and others is what brought me to finally join the site, as opposed to lurking, and the work that hoffmang et al are doing is far more valuble than the chest pounding and the "I'll never give up my gun" histronics you find on other gun boards.

Keep up the good ork, I'll be making montly donations to the cause.

[radioburning]

This is great news! Bringing the fight to them!

Just donated. I encourage anyone who hasn't yet to do so now.

[lioneaglegriffin]

How will this effect energy being spent on NERF's or will they both go a full speed ahead. Other than that.....

:King: thank you

:jump: im giddy as a f***ing school girl.

[lioneaglegriffin]

Just dropped another donation to CGF after reading.

This just brings a big grin to my face. :D

Paul Helmke's reaction probably went something like this: :confused: :eek: :mad:

A big thanks to all involved! :thumbsup:

LMAO

[hoffmang]

How will this effect energy being spent on NERF's or will they both go a full speed ahead. Other than that.....


NRF ties very neatly into our strategy here. I leave it to the reader to think about how and why.

-Gene

[geeyoffthehook]

I want to see how this turns out.

[wash]

Is there any hope of going after registration itself?

[DarkHorse]

NRF ties very neatly into our strategy here. I leave it to the reader to think about how and why.

-Gene

I'm thinking simply here:

If the roster goes away, we should be able to get any handgun/frame we want anyway, right? It seems that even the phrase "NRF" would go away, as there would be no roster for a handgun/frame to not be one (that sounds weird, but I think it's correct). Or, once the NRF situation becomes solid, the roster becomes pointless, as it won't actually prevent any person from obtaining any particular handgun/frame. Although, DOJ would never give up the roster voluntarily, even w/NRF's, as it provides revenue. But, perhaps manufacturers would strike back by letting everything fall off-roster, and start selling bare frames, "CA parts kits," etc.

Man, too much to figure out right now...

[7x57]

NRF ties very neatly into our strategy here. I leave it to the reader to think about how and why.


One simple way, after incorporation: to demonstrate that certain off-list firearms are "widely chosen by Americans for personal defense" or something like that. That provides a clear link to Heller.

7x57

[peepshowal]

This is excellent news! Thank you to all involved.

[GuyW]

I believe this will also help stop spreading CA laws further in other states - no more "let's just copy CA's laws". This can open up a whole 'nuther round of screwups.

This raises the specter of gun-friendly states like Texas helping CA gunnies by passing some dumb law - say, adopting a CA law word-for-word, and then running it up thru their legal system...

....dunno if it has any validity, tho...
.

[Davidoff]

Thanks again CGF!!

I'll pledge $20 for next payday. Do I get the Yanni CD with that or do I have to bump it up to $25?:43:

[truthseeker]

I forget what show I was watching, but they had Heller talking about his win in DC.

He was saying that they are going to submit lawsuit "Heller II" soon, which this lawsuit is probably what he was referring to.

He also said they have "Heller III and IV" in the works.

Can't wait to see how this unfolds!

[C.G.]

:cheers2: again, Gene! :notworthy:

[bwiese]

This raises the specter of gun-friendly states like Texas helping CA gunnies by passing some dumb law - say, adopting a CA law word-for-word, and then running it up thru their legal system...

....dunno if it has any validity, tho...
.

Guy,
In a state like TX that would do far more harm than good.

In a screwed up state with way-too-many-gun-laws-already (say, NY or MA) additional laws can create such interference that they can become somewhat useful even if short-term pain is introduced.

[thegratenate]

My take on how NeRFs and this case go together, is that once the NeRFs hit the streets it will make the "same gun, different color" argument go away in favor of the "same gun" argument.

This is truly a breathtaking time in history.

I am honored to be rubbing digital elbows with such historical figures before the next chapter is even written.

A couple of more rounds like this and that "charter of negative rights" will really feel like a burr in the side of our anointed leader, he may even have to break down and read the damn thing to figure out what rules he will be held to.

[yellowfin]

I'm wondering how NY can get BB's officially endorsed. Currently they lack an opinion or ruling in favor of them. Any advice on how to go about getting that done?

[thegratenate]

:cool::D

[hoffmang]

I forget what show I was watching, but they had Heller talking about his win in DC.

He was saying that they are going to submit lawsuit "Heller II" soon, which this lawsuit is probably what he was referring to.


Mr Heller is not involved in this one so this is not the case he was referring to.

-Gene

[elenius]

Mr Heller is not involved in this one so this is not the case he was referring to.

-Gene

Is it possible/likely that this case will be "combined" (forgot the legal term) with "Heller II", i.e. that they will be heard at the same time?

[bwiese]

I'm wondering how NY can get BB's officially endorsed. Currently they lack an opinion or ruling in favor of them. Any advice on how to go about getting that done?

NY laws and the way regulatory law works are likely so different than CA's laws that it's probably irrelevant.

And apparently in some areas in NY, you can have "pre ban" rifles conforming to the old Fed ban.

[Ding126]

Let's try to guess at the reasoning behind this.

Think of it as getting the roster declared unconstitutional without having to wait for incorporation to challenge it in CA. Then, when the 2A is incorporated against the states, we already have a ruling that it violates the 2A rather than having to start there. It saves a step, and litigation steps seem to take years.


7x57

Exactly..use the other states to indirectly help CA. Brilliant !!!

[7x57]

Exactly..use the other states to indirectly help CA. Brilliant !!!

This was all DC's idea, so I think it's more a case of wait until they fall into the pit, then climb over the body to get out. :D

7x57

[hoffmang]

Is it possible/likely that this case will be "combined" (forgot the legal term) with "Heller II", i.e. that they will be heard at the same time?

You are correct. We could get consolidated, but I think our case has a unique enough set of facts that we will not. We are in front of the same district court judge which actually argues against consolidation also.

-Gene

[ke6guj]

And apparently in some areas in NY, you can have "pre ban" rifles conforming to the old Fed ban.Yup, IIRC, some NY gunnies have offered trades like 2-for-1 deals, as in "I'll trade you two new lowers for one "pre-ban" lower". That way, they can increase the number of "pre-ban" rifles in NY. Same thing applies to "pre-ban" mags as well, IIRC.

[hoffmang]

BTW whoever came up with the idea to use the XD-45 Bi-tone is a ****in genius!!! ;)

I wonder who that ****ing genius is? Hrm...

Also hat tip to leelaw and a friend who provided a needed item in a hurry as well...

-Gene

[tiki]

Gene,
Do you have a rough estimate of what we are talking about in time before it gets heard, where it gets heard and how long for the appeal?

[kenusmc]

This is great news, this same color or alloy verse stainless thing stopped me from getting the SIG I wanted.

Keep on fighting never give up/never surrender

[Sinestr]

As a fairly new CG member and long time NRA member, why I ask have I seen more tangible action here in three months then in my American Riflemen magazine in years. I think the NRA should take some cues from CG. The surgical strikes I'm seeing made by the CGF is what will bring real CHANGE. Hats off to Gene and the Cal Guns Foundation. :thumbsup:

[bwiese]

As a fairly new CG member and long time NRA member, why I ask have I seen more tangible action here in three months then in my American Riflemen magazine in years. I think the NRA should take some cues from CG. The surgical strikes I'm seeing made by the CGF is what will bring real CHANGE. Hats off to Gene and the Cal Guns Foundation. :thumbsup:

NRA, its CA staff and its attorneys have been behind the scenes doing lotsa stuff statewide and nationally.

We at CGF (along with many Calgunners) work with them, we focus on certain things, they on others - sometimes we take one aspect, they another. This has been a successful partnership since the early OLL days, which resulted in AB2728 and freezing the list of banned AWs and stopping regulatory creep where the DOJ wanted to redefine 'detachable magazine' term.

American Rifleman is a mass circulation magazine with general focus on guns, and it doesn't always go into deep detail on focused legal issues.

NRA really doesn't toot its own horn enough. (And sometimes it's best they don't on certain secret squirrel stuff.)

[Of course, when other gun groups screw up, it's inevitable that NRA gets the blame - truly unfortunate.]

[Liberty1]

As a fairly new CG member and long time NRA member, why I ask have I seen more tangible action here in three months then in my American Riflemen magazine in years. I think the NRA should take some cues from CG. The surgical strikes I'm seeing made by the CGF is what will bring real CHANGE. Hats off to Gene and the Cal Guns Foundation. :thumbsup:

Don't think NRA is not involved. CGF works closely with the coalition of which NRA is a strong but often silent partner. Boy I do wish CGF had their budget however.

Your continued support of the NRA IS crucial to our continued successes.

[bwiese]

Don't think NRA is not involved. CGF works closely with the coalition of which NRA is a strong but often silent partner. Boy I do with CGF had their budget however.

Your continued support of the NRA IS crucial to our continued successes.

Yep Andrew, there's Money Flowing West. :)

The road to a fully-realized RKBA runs thru California.

[7x57]

The surgical strikes I'm seeing made by the CGF is what will bring real CHANGE.

"Those special forces guys did more in one mission than the Third Army did in a month. The Third Army should act like Special Forces."

Um, no. Monocultures don't work for gun rights any more than they do biologically.

Aside from the fact that the NRA does a lot of things it doesn't get credit for because it wouldn't be strategic to act too visibly, sometimes all that matters is how many armored divisions you have and how much ground you can hold. Only the NRA really has the sledgehammer and the armored divisions. No congressman shakes in his boots for fear the CGF will rate them badly--but quite a few do worry about their NRA rating (mostly elsewhere, granted, but no doubt a few even in Sacramento). That keeps bad bills from even getting started, and that means one less law that CGF has to hack or challenge. OTOH, it's hard to do precision work with armored divisions, so it's a good idea to have someone else on the team. It's called combined arms.

IOW, part of the reason groups like CGF can pick stuff off is that the NRA "occupies the ground." They don't do everything best, but they are the only group that can litigate and lobby effectively, in every state. And because they do that, the opportunity is there for smaller groups to do what they do best without fear that the center will collapse and the flag will be lost while they're busy sniping at officers.

I doubt there is a single CGF board member who wants the NRA to try to be a bigger CGF. They each play a particular role that is not easily duplicated and they cooperate very well together. Oddly enough I have mostly met CG people at NRA meetings. Why? Because they work well together. When they talk I don't really detect a hairsbreadth of difference in goal, but rather some discussion of optimal strategy and who can make what happen.

7x57

[wildhawker]

The road to a fully-realized RKBA runs thru California.

...And Calguns is the grading and paving crew

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/wildhawker/Paving.jpg

[7x57]

Don't think NRA is not involved. CGF works closely with the coalition of which NRA is a strong but often silent partner.

I probably had just heard too many complaints by the NRA's detractors, but I was surprised to find out how often the NRA is willing to back someone else's play without credit. The whiners like to say that the NRA does whatever it pleases without regard for anyone else, and it's true that sometimes American Rifleman is written that way. But what I witness actually happening is that the NRA does whatever makes sense without much regard to who looks good.

I think that's called teamwork.

Basically, sometimes I hear complaining about issues I don't understand well enough to really evaluate. But whenever I actually know what is going on, I am pleased with the NRA's role. That tends to make me rather suspicious about what might really be behind those complaints, and rather annoyed at the pointless griping.

From what I see in California, I think the NRA wants to win more than it wants to look good, which is admirable.

7x57

[hoffmang]

...And Calguns is the grading and paving crew


I'd like to think of the Calguns Foundation as more like this:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/emoticons/steamroller.png

Though a special forces one at that...

-Gene

[wash]

I think I should support the NRA more.

For the longest time all I heard about them is how they were doing nothing in CA and building fancy firing ranges thousands of miles away.

It's too bad that they couldn't have been more open about what they were doing for CA, I would have given more money if I had known.

[lioneaglegriffin]

NRF ties very neatly into our strategy here. I leave it to the reader to think about how and why.

-Gene

bingo. ;)

[Electricboy]

Thank you for the great work. and the NRA donated money to add a handgun facility to the Ukiah gun club

[Anthonysmanifesto]

As a fairly new CG member and long time NRA member, why I ask have I seen more tangible action here in three months then in my American Riflemen magazine in years. I think the NRA should take some cues from CG. The surgical strikes I'm seeing made by the CGF is what will bring real CHANGE. Hats off to Gene and the Cal Guns Foundation. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the team!

If there was no NRA - there could be no "surgical strikes".

[7x57]

I think I should support the NRA more.


Then my work here is done. :D


For the longest time all I heard about them is how they were doing nothing in CA and building fancy firing ranges thousands of miles away.


It's funny, isn't it--gunnies at the ranges and gun stores are *much* more dispirited than they need to be.


It's too bad that they couldn't have been more open about what they were doing for CA, I would have given more money if I had known.

Actually, it's really really easy to find out quite a bit about what they do. I seem to repeat this periodically, so it apparently isn't widely known (well, I found out by accident myself) which makes this something of a public service announcement. Go to http://www.calnra.com/ [[note to self--check that page more often than you have been]] and find your local member's council (http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/index.shtml). Go to the meetings and help out, and wait for an opportunity to go to one of the meetings Paul Payne holds periodically. Go to that, and and listen to the discussion.

Interestingly enough, you tend to hear the inside story on what's going on from the people making it happen. Also interestingly enough, it wouldn't be too unlikely to meet some of the CGF board there to talk strategy with the NRA (and why not--they are NRA too, it seems).

So this is my frustration in hearing the griping and complaining about the NRA--it really just isn't all that hard to find out what the NRA is doing. I stumbled on to the MC's less than (I think) a year ago, so it obviously doesn't take mind-boggling effort to do it (the biggest effort is just fighting the traffic down to Orange County where Paul tends to call his meetings). That tells me that people who say the NRA isn't doing anything here are not doing much to help out.

Well, so that leads to *my* criticism of the NRA in California--publicize the member's council's better! I only discovered they exist by accident, and if I hadn't I wouldn't sell the NRA to dispirited CA gun owners nearly so well because I wouldn't *know* much for myself.

7x57

[Shotgun Man]

I haven't read all the replies only about 6-7 pages for me, but isn't this likely to be mooted by the legislative movement afoot to strip DC of gun regulation authority?

[Dr Rockso]

I haven't read all the replies only about 6-7 pages for me, but isn't this likely to be mooted by the legislative movement afoot to strip DC of gun regulation authority?
Last I heard it doesn't look like that's likely to pass.

[Rumpled]

I got the email yesterday and could hardly believe that CGF was listed right there.
Felt good to see that.

I can't believe (well I can) that DC was so stupid to just directly cite the CA list in their law. They couldn't pay their overpaid special magistrate or whatever to actually write their own law?

[Gray Peterson]

Very nice all around. As the saying goes: The best is yet to come. :43::D

[WokMaster1]

Just want to say warm hello & a very good morning to Mayor Adrian Fenty. :seeya: I'm sure he is curious as to why a California gun foundation is R E A C H I N G all the way out to DC & kicking his butt.:D

Gene, talk about a long range ballistic missile approach.:D

[sgtlmj]

First post here. This thread actually brought me to this site, as I was wondering if the new DC lawsuit would have an effect on the CA list. Kind of ironic that the DC Council, hoping to make their laws as restrictive as possible by parroting CA, may actually have the reverse effect, and help out the CA folks in the process.

Good show!

[glockfu]

This is great... THANK YOU!

On a side note, I want to donate... I tried to but don't want to provide an address. Is there a way to do this through paypal?

[oaklander]

This is great... THANK YOU!

On a side note, I want to donate... I tried to but don't want to provide an address. Is there a way to do this through paypal?

If you want to donate anonymously (more or less), you can send a cashier's check (or a personal check without your address) to:

The Calguns Foundation
3200 Bridge Parkway Suite 202C
Redwood City CA 94065
650-275-1015

[Racefiend]

This is great... THANK YOU!

On a side note, I want to donate... I tried to but don't want to provide an address. Is there a way to do this through paypal?

Go here:

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate

and click on the blue paypal link

[glockfu]

Go here:

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/donate

and click on the blue paypal link

That's what I did but when I sign into paypal to make the payment, it shows my mailing addresses. I don't see an option to click "none". How can I make the donation without the mailing address?

[xxdabroxx]

What are you worried about, send the money! :thumbsup: they aren't going to spam you, take off your :TFH:

[tube_ee]

Actually, it's really really easy to find out quite a bit about what they do. I seem to repeat this periodically, so it apparently isn't widely known (well, I found out by accident myself) which makes this something of a public service announcement. Go to http://www.calnra.com/ [[note to self--check that page more often than you have been]] and find your local member's council. Go to the meetings and help out, and wait for an opportunity to go to one of the meetings Paul Payne holds periodically. Go to that, and and listen to the discussion.

It's up to the NRA to let potential supporters in California know what it is doing for us, if it wants our money.

It's called advertising.

Telling me to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to find out why I should give you money is going to result in you not getting my money.

If California gun owners think (and many of us do... I used to) that the NRA is not doing jack for us, then that is 100% the NRA's fault, and it's 100% the NRA's job to correct that impression.

--Shannon

[bwiese]

It's up to the NRA to let potential supporters in California know what it is doing for us, if it wants our money.

It's called advertising.

Telling me to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to find out why I should give you money is going to result in you not getting my money.

If California gun owners think (and many of us do... I used to) that the NRA is not doing jack for us, then that is 100% the NRA's fault, and it's 100% the NRA's job to correct that impression.


So precious money that could be used to fight the antis should be used to reach to you instead because you can't go to a website?

Ssheesh.

[7x57]

If California gun owners think (and many of us do... I used to) that the NRA is not doing jack for us, then that is 100% the NRA's fault, and it's 100% the NRA's job to correct that impression.

While the NRA should in fact do a better job on this, much of the blame goes to gunnies unconsciously believing what the media says about the NRA and the "other" gun-rights groups that seem to make NRA-bashing their main fundraising technique. I'm getting pretty intolerant of that sort of thing in a pro-gun organization. My money is contingent on working *with* the NRA or covering something the NRA doesn't do as well, not making all the good work they do harder.

I am strenuously avoiding naming names here.

7x57

[wildhawker]

It's up to the NRA to let potential supporters in California know what it is doing for us, if it wants our money.

It's called advertising.

Telling me to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to find out why I should give you money is going to result in you not getting my money.

If California gun owners think (and many of us do... I used to) that the NRA is not doing jack for us, then that is 100% the NRA's fault, and it's 100% the NRA's job to correct that impression.

--Shannon

Should I UPS you TV dinner tonight, since it's up to me to know you'll be hungry tomorrow? Surely someone would also send the latest copy of AMERICA'S 1st FREEDOM so you can see where your advertizing, er, contributions are going.

If you want to know how the war is really going, join up (or at least take the initiative to inform yourself).

Bill nailed it: ssheesh.

[DedEye]

It's up to the NRA to let potential supporters in California know what it is doing for us, if it wants our money.

It's called advertising.

Telling me to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to find out why I should give you money is going to result in you not getting my money.

If California gun owners think (and many of us do... I used to) that the NRA is not doing jack for us, then that is 100% the NRA's fault, and it's 100% the NRA's job to correct that impression.

--Shannon

That website IS advertising.

[WokMaster1]

What are you worried about, send the money! :thumbsup: they aren't going to spam you, take off your :TFH:

It's Fenty, bro....:hide:

[Sam]

It's ironic, Obama has kept the gun industry strong and Fenty has kept the gun rights movement strong. Good stuff. Thanks calguns!

[hoffmang]

First post here. This thread actually brought me to this site, as I was wondering if the new DC lawsuit would have an effect on the CA list.

The reason Alan Gura, CGF, and SAF brought this case was that we got to make excellent case law in DC that we can immediately import into California. The same basic arguments also show that California's implementation is unconstitutional.

It will take one more case to make it final, but it should be very easy to adopt the DC Circuit Court rulings in the Ninth Circuit.

-Gene

[bdsmchs]

So many threads in just the most recent weeks making me so happy :)

It's a good time to be a Californian!!

[Sinestr]

I'm glad to hear the NRA is working with CGF on some of these issues, it's very reassuring as a gun owner. I think CG is the perfect place for those gun owning detractors that belive nothing can be done to restore 2A rights!

[bdsmchs]

All of the people, in my experience, that bash the NRA for doing nothing are the same people that have never:

- Written/phoned/faxed their elected officials about gun laws/rights.
- Attended an NRA members council meeting, or other NRA event.
- Donated to the NRA/CRPA/JPFO/CGF/etc outside of their normal yearly dues.
- ASKED the NRA questions like "So what have YOU done for me?"

I've done all of the above. I've straight up asked H. Paul Payne and Ed Worley "What did the NRA do about issue X?", and I've gotten no-BS answers from them, detailing to me EXACTLY how the NRA helped for that issue and has helped California.

If you sit at home and get your NRA mag, and just pay your annual dues you're right in that it will look like the NRA doesn't do a whole lot. You need to GET INVOLVED. We all have a finite amount of time, and we can't all make this a full time thing, but getting involved doesn't have to mean spending 10's of hours per week doing things. Just do a little bit here and there. Donate some money when you have extra cash, attend a members-council meeting only a few times a year.

Once you get involved, and actually meet and talk to the true movers and shakers you will realize that the NRA does a whole lot more than send you a free magazine each month.

Also, what 7x57 said is exactly correct. The NRA is the behemoth mechanized infantry holding the ground with the millions of dollars to lobby for our gun rights in all 50 states AND at the federal level. And they absolutely provide support for the surgical strike teams like CGF :)

[Sinestr]

I have been mailing the Pelosi's, Feinstein's, Schummers, & Clintons for a long time. I always participate with the NRA in my local area, and support pro 2A candidates, and this I will continue to do. Have taken some heat for the battle to on personal fronts. It's always good to see a chunk taken out of the other sides A**.:D

[Fate]

Wondering how I missed this thread yesterday. Wow...great news. For all the grief we CA gun owners receive from the sit on their hands "free-staters", the CGF sure kicks a lot of legal arse. :D

[artherd]

CGF & NRA:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/USA-unpack-D9R_01.jpg/800px-USA-unpack-D9R_01.jpg

[trinydex]

Let's try to guess at the reasoning behind this.

Think of it as getting the roster declared unconstitutional without having to wait for incorporation to challenge it in CA. Then, when the 2A is incorporated against the states, we already have a ruling that it violates the 2A rather than having to start there. It saves a step, and litigation steps seem to take years.

It is not the same circuit, but if the DC circuit finds it unconstitutional, that should carry some weight in the ninth circuit. I also wonder if it will be easier to get it struck down in this context as well. The fact that it bans Dick Heller's exact gun seems to make the point really really well. At least, it's terribly ironic.

7x57

aha, i was wondering how this was possible without the incorporation decision.

[19Delta]

I am a noob to this site but I'm very impressed with this site's willpower. I'll be sure to donate.

[artherd]

Click the link in my signature! Funds donated go directly to RKBA causes like this, with practically no overhead.

[lioneaglegriffin]

I am a noob to this site but I'm very impressed with this site's willpower. I'll be sure to donate.

wellcome to CalGuns, good decision in investing in your state's future.

[ontargetrange]

Having attended the UCLA symbosium last month I had the opportunity to meet with and discuss the Heller case with Garu -- he did say they were working on additional suits and hoped that DC would try some "stupid" tricks -- they were looking forward to it. Now it appears they have opened the door for Kalifornia to get out from under the DOJ oppression -- the list.

I hope everyone will contribute to the cause as much as they can. We need to win these fights now and set up other successes in the future.

[N6ATF]

Garu?

[ke6guj]

I think there may be some dislexia there, probably meant Gura :D

[N6ATF]

Dislexia indeed.

[cousinkix1953]

Let's try to guess at the reasoning behind this.

Think of it as getting the roster declared unconstitutional without having to wait for incorporation to challenge it in CA. Then, when the 2A is incorporated against the states, we already have a ruling that it violates the 2A rather than having to start there. It saves a step, and litigation steps seem to take years.

It is not the same circuit, but if the DC circuit finds it unconstitutional, that should carry some weight in the ninth circuit. I also wonder if it will be easier to get it struck down in this context as well. The fact that it bans Dick Heller's exact gun seems to make the point really really well. At least, it's terribly ironic.
7x57

Exactly right. Those DC appreals court rulings often become final after the Supremes reaffirm those decisions and put their own stamp of approval on them. Case closed.

Remember that we are dealing with the same kind of idiots, who used to call the GLOCK a dangerous handgun and a terrorists' weapon. They wound up looking like fools; when Sarah Brady's favorite Saturday night special became the favorite of law enforcement agencies. Our anti-gun politicians wouldn't spend our tax dollars buying junk handguns, would they???

[cousinkix1953]

It's up to the NRA to let potential supporters in California know what it is doing for us, if it wants our money.

It's called advertising.

Telling me to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to find out why I should give you money is going to result in you not getting my money.

If California gun owners think (and many of us do... I used to) that the NRA is not doing jack for us, then that is 100% the NRA's fault, and it's 100% the NRA's job to correct that impression.
--Shannon
The big three networks (ABC, NBC and CBS) REFUSE to run any kind of advertisements from the National Rifle Association. They won't do so, until federal laws and FCC regulations, force them to sell commercial time (at market rates) to any lawful enterprise. We used to own the public airwaves; but enforcing such laws has become non-existent, except when somebody say, "f---" on the air.

You won't hear any of these ads on the network affiliates in Frisco (KGO KCBS etc) or Smell A (KABC, KFI etc) either. Gun related advertisements seem to show up in Fresno (KMJ) or Santa Cruz (KSCO) and other outlying areas. These facilities are not owned by the likes of Citadel, GE and Viacom; so anti-gun beauracrats in the Rotten Apple do not control their advertising polices from the east coast!

I have seen NRA ads on CNN during the 90s too. Putting a series of 60 second commercials on 10 thousand watt KSCO costs about $500.00, from what the owners say on the radio...

[cousinkix1953]

I'd like to think of the Calguns Foundation as more like this:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/emoticons/steamroller.png

Though a special forces one at that...
-Gene
Now, if somebody can PhotoShop the faces of Feinstein, Boxer, Perata etal under the steamroller's front wheel, we would have a nice picture...

[1911_sfca]

AWESOME! Just read the complaint. I love it when a plan comes together.

[bdsmchs]

I love it when a plan comes together.

So does the A-Team :)

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/A-Team_Hannibal_t-shirt_small-1.jpg

[rweller]

CRPA Foundation joins Calguns and SAF Foundation in Washington DC lawsuit challenging the use of California's approved guns list - CRPA - Story (http://www.crpa.org/dept.aspx?dept_id=08)

[7x57]

CRPA Foundation joins Calguns and SAF Foundation in Washington DC lawsuit challenging the use of California's approved guns list - CRPA - Story (http://www.crpa.org/dept.aspx?dept_id=08)

Thanks, CRPA. :thumbsup:

7x57

[bdsmchs]

CRPA Foundation joins Calguns and SAF Foundation in Washington DC lawsuit challenging the use of California's approved guns list - CRPA - Story (http://www.crpa.org/dept.aspx?dept_id=08)


From the article:

DC did not completely adopt the California “unsafe handgun” law, which generally bans the sale of handguns not tested and approved for sale by the California Department of Justice. California’s law has exceptions, such as for private party consignment sales, that factually distinguish the DC case and may legally distinguish the DC challenge from a potential California challenge to the California law.

Nonetheless, there is the potential that the DC suit could affect California law. So CRPA will be submitting friend of the court amicus briefs in the case and coordinating the efforts of other amicus brief submissions through its litigation arm, the 501(c)(3) CRPA Foundation. Contributions to the CRPA Foundation are tax deductible.


Can someone please back this up? Also, is the CRPA doing anything other than the amicus briefs?

I'd just like to know in a little more detail just how involved CRPA truly is. I *HOPE* this is the new face of the CRPA we've all been looking forward to.

[hoffmang]

CRPA Foundation joins Calguns and SAF Foundation in Washington DC lawsuit challenging the use of California's approved guns list - CRPA - Story (http://www.crpa.org/dept.aspx?dept_id=08)

Ralph,

I suggest that again you please be more accurate instead of misleading. CRPA is going to file an Amicus brief. Attempting to claim more than that is bad form.

This is not the place to try to spin.

-Gene

[wildhawker]

Ralph,

I suggest that again you please be more accurate instead of misleading. CRPA is going to file an Amicus brief. Attempting to claim more than that is bad form.

This is not the place to try to spin.

-Gene

It was also posted in the CRPA forum (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2168566&highlight=CRPA#post2168566) in response to some of my inquiries as well.

[rweller]

Wasn't trying to mislead. My apologies. Posted the link to the story that says it all.

Ralph

[bdsmchs]

I suggest that again you please be more accurate instead of misleading. CRPA is going to file an Amicus brief. Attempting to claim more than that is bad form.


Ehhh, that's what I had pretty much suspected.

I guess it's a start?

[bsim]

Now, if somebody can PhotoShop the faces of Feinstein, Boxer, Perata etal under the steamroller's front wheel, we would have a nice picture...

18955
:TFH:

[xxdabroxx]

Rolling around the steam roller, think looney toons, would be better. thats a little tougher free transform though.

[bwiese]

Ehhh, that's what I had pretty much suspected.

I guess it's a start?

Certainly is. Let's not jump all over Ralph for some issues of phrasing during quick typing.

[Librarian]

Rolling around the steam roller, think looney toons, would be better. thats a little tougher free transform though.

Hey, those three are public servants; they should volunteer for the photo shoot.

What's it cost to rent a 'roller?

Stand over here, babe .... a little closer together ... cue the 'roller driver ...

[wildhawker]

Hey, those three are public servants; they should volunteer for the photo shoot.

What's it cost to rent a 'roller?

Stand over here, babe .... a little closer together ... cue the 'roller driver ...

One big enough for those three? A lot.

But I'd be more than happy to donate one of ours, operated even.

[artherd]

CRPA Foundation joins Calguns and SAF Foundation in Washington DC lawsuit challenging the use of California's approved guns list - CRPA - Story (http://www.crpa.org/dept.aspx?dept_id=08)

Kicking out a press release asking for donations claiming joint support of the case... Without permission...

...when all you're going to do, maybe, is file an amicus, is kind of bad form no?

I have to ask, does anyone in the CRPA own a business? Is this the kind of thing you do in private industry?

[n6nvr]

The big three networks (ABC, NBC and CBS) REFUSE to run any kind of advertisements from the National Rifle Association. They won't do so, until federal laws and FCC regulations, force them to sell commercial time (at market rates) to any lawful enterprise. We used to own the public airwaves; but enforcing such laws has become non-existent, except when somebody say, "f---" on the air.

You won't hear any of these ads on the network affiliates in Frisco (KGO KCBS etc) or Smell A (KABC, KFI etc) either. Gun related advertisements seem to show up in Fresno (KMJ) or Santa Cruz (KSCO) and other outlying areas. These facilities are not owned by the likes of Citadel, GE and Viacom; so anti-gun beauracrats in the Rotten Apple do not control their advertising polices from the east coast!

I have seen NRA ads on CNN during the 90s too. Putting a series of 60 second commercials on 10 thousand watt KSCO costs about $500.00, from what the owners say on the radio...

KFI is a clear chaneel station operated by Clear Channel Corporation. They might be affiliated with Fox if any. I wouldn't be surprised if the NRA couldn't advertise there they just don't want to foot the bill. Several of the commentators are not anti-gun.

They are pretty anti-buffoon though.

[glockwise2000]

I certainly enjoyed reading this, but I doubt it will have much effect. Personally I think with Pelosi and Feinstein over there, we'll probably see the roster requirement go away in D.C. before this hits SCOTUS. I can't imagine they would go ahead with this case knowing that it has virtually no chance of being upheld by SCOTUS.
Of course I hope that it does go to the judges, but I'm not holding my breath on this one. We'll probably see the CA list get challenged in the 9th after incorporation. I think they may go with it for a while to see if the makeup of the court changes in a year or so, but I doubt they will take it to the current court.


Pardon my ignorance. What is SCOTUS?:confused:

BTW, donation sent to CGF.:D

This kind of topic makes me smile.:)

[383green]

Pardon my ignorance. What is SCOTUS?:confused:

Supreme Court of the United States

[glockwise2000]

After reading the article, I hope someone from CGF can personally thank all of the plaintiffs for their participation in this matter.

We are rooting for them!


Who ever those peeps are THANK YOU:patriot:.

glockwise2000

[xxdabroxx]

So as of now, DC residents can own any pistol they want?

[Monte]

So as of now, DC residents can own any pistol they want?

Eh? Why do you say that? :confused:

[xxdabroxx]

My bad got confused for a second. Our side moved that this should be settled based on the motion of summary judgment. Then if that is approved the roster is nullified in DC. (i'm trying to catch up on how all this works) At which point DC residents could own any handgun they want.

[Monte]

Ah, gotcha. I got a little excited there for a moment. Thought I'd missed something. ;)

[DDT]

My bad got confused for a second. Our side moved that this should be settled based on the motion of summary judgment. Then if that is approved the roster is nullified in DC. (i'm trying to catch up on how all this works) At which point DC residents could own any handgun they want.

hmmm... if a roster is not constitutional in D.C. and Nordyke incorporated the 2A and the D.C. roster is the same roster as we have in CA.......

No roster for CA.

[N6ATF]

My bad got confused for a second. Our side moved that this should be settled based on the motion of summary judgment. Then if that is approved the roster is nullified in DC. (i'm trying to catch up on how all this works) At which point DC residents could own any handgun they want.

Unless the traitorous council convenes an emergency session and votes in a new unique roster they had prepared precisely in case of the CA roster getting struck down. History repeats itself, they will do anything to be in contempt of SCOTUS and humanity until they breathe their last breaths.

[bdsmchs]

hmmm... if a roster is not constitutional in D.C. and Nordyke incorporated the 2A and the D.C. roster is the same roster as we have in CA.......

No roster for CA.

That's part of the logic for challenging the DC roster. If/When we get incorporation in CA (which happened yesterday), it speeds up eliminating CA's roster.

There are currently 4 direct or indirect challenges to CA's roster. 1 or 2 of those 4 will come to fruition very very soon now.

[M. Sage]

Gene, I think you missed your calling. Had you been a general, nobody would have been able to stand before you. Your forte would have been big, complex set-piece battles where you draw the enemy into untenable positions, surround and eradicate them. :thumbsup:

[383green]

Gene, I think you missed your calling. Had you been a general, nobody would have been able to stand before you. Your forte would have been big, complex set-piece battles where you draw the enemy into untenable positions, surround and eradicate them. :thumbsup:

I think it's quite helpful that the enemy has never had to fight in their lifetimes, and are suddenly discovering that they don't even know how. :43:

[SwissFluCase]

I think it's quite helpful that the enemy has never had to fight in their lifetimes, and are suddenly discovering that they don't even know how. :43:

The dog fights for it's lunch. The rabbit fights for it's life...

Regards,


SwissFluCase

[383green]

The dog fights for it's lunch. The rabbit fights for it's life...

Are we the dog or the rabbit? I hope that we're the dog, because my dogs always win fights with rabbits. :confused:

[SwissFluCase]

Are we the dog or the rabbit? I hope that we're the dog, because my dogs always win fights with rabbits. :confused:

Pre 2008 we were the rabbit. The anti's in in this fight for political points. We are in this fight for keeps, and by a stretch, our lives.

Of course we are going to outfight the anti's. It is inevitable.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

[383green]

Pre 2008 we were the rabbit. The anti's in in this fight for political points. We are in this fight for keeps, and by a stretch, our lives.


Ok. So, now with Heller and Nordyke, does that make us the Rabbit of Caerbannog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog)? :43:

[SwissFluCase]

Ok. So, now with Heller and Nordyke, does that make us the Rabbit of Caerbannog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog)? :43:

The anti's are up the creek without a HHG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch). :31:

Regards,


SwissFluCase

[383green]

Luckily for us, the antis don't know anything about armaments. And some of them can't count to three, either. :D

[Dr Rockso]

Luckily for us, the antis don't know anything about armaments. And some of them can't count to three, either. :D
They sure do like to skip the number 2.

[gazzavc]

Ok. So, now with Heller and Nordyke, does that make us the Rabbit of Caerbannog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog)? :43:

Now with post incorporation we have "The Holy Hand Grenade Of Antioch"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch

[383green]

So, we're the dreaded vorpal bunny, and we possess the only weapon that can defeat us? Sweeeet.

:31:

[CCWFacts]

So, if the Supreme Court tosses the California roster in DC, and because we have Nordyke, does the roster then also automatically turn into a cloud of unpleasant vapor here in California? If so, the roster could be gone within weeks, right?

[CSDGuy]

So, if the Supreme Court tosses the California roster in DC, and because we have Nordyke, does the roster then also automatically turn into a cloud of unpleasant vapor here in California? If so, the roster could be gone within weeks, right?
If this comes to pass as quickly as a few weeks, will someone be kind enough to AM to provide her a pillow to soften her landing when she faints upon learning of more vaporware?

[383green]

If this comes to pass as quickly as a few weeks, will someone be kind enough to AM to provide her a pillow to soften her landing when she faints upon learning of more vaporware?

She has been so helpful to our cause, that I think we should spring for much more than a mere pillow.

http://www.holmanstudios.com/images2004/furniture/seat_faintingcouch.jpg

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-fainting-couch.htm

[383green]

If this comes to pass as quickly as a few weeks, will someone be kind enough to AM to provide her a pillow to soften her landing when she faints upon learning of more vaporware?

She has been so helpful to our cause, that I think we should spring for much more than a mere pillow.

http://www.holmanstudios.com/images2004/furniture/seat_faintingcouch.jpg

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-fainting-couch.htm

[madmike]

Ok. So, now with Heller and Nordyke, does that make us the Rabbit of Caerbannog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog)? :43:

Let's hope the anti's don't have "The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch"

-madmike.

Oops, too slow on the button...

[hoffmang]

So, if the Supreme Court tosses the California roster in DC, and because we have Nordyke, does the roster then also automatically turn into a cloud of unpleasant vapor here in California? If so, the roster could be gone within weeks, right?

It still will take another case. However, the mirror CA case is quite easy and is simply a dare. We dare the 9th to create a circuit split on the CA Roster.

However, Congress may end up altering the plan slightly. We'll see.

-Gene

[rbgaynor]

However, Congress may end up altering the plan slightly. We'll see.

-Gene

Gene, are you referring to efforts to strip the City of its ability to regulate firearms? I really hope that doesn't happen...DC is too valuable of an ally ;)

[M. D. Van Norman]

And it would be so poetically ironic if the California roster were to evaporate due to the hubris of our opponents.

[yellowfin]

If this comes to pass as quickly as a few weeks, will someone be kind enough to AM to provide her a pillow to soften her landing when she faints upon learning of more vaporware? Might have to cut her down from the ceiling fan instead.

[Bruce3]

does anyone know when the outcome of the DC roster case will be known? please don't say "TWO WEEKS!"

[hoffmang]

Two weeks!

Had to.

The MSJ has about 20 days in which DC is supposed to respond. DC is asking for more time to respond and to consolidate our case with Dick Heller's case. Ours would move a lot faster if not consolidated so we've asked not to be consolidated.

The court may not grant an extension to DC to file a reply to the SJ. If DC is forced to reply then we could get a district court ruling in 90-100 days.

-Gene

[artherd]

And it WILL be so poetically ironic WHEN the California roster ... evaporates due to the hubris of our opponents.

Fixed it for ya :)

[DDT]

Someone please tell me that AM helped in the effort to implement the Roster in DC.

[xxdabroxx]

However, Congress may end up altering the plan slightly. We'll see.

-Gene

What does this mean? I'm out of the loop in the political stuff, i try to keep up though.

[Californio]

It is interesting in the history of the world that Social Zealots would rather die than reach a common sense solution, this behavior has been borne out over and over again in human history.

I really hope Congress stays out of it and DC is allowed to go down in political flames.

[wash]

What does this mean? I'm out of the loop in the political stuff, i try to keep up though.
He's referring to the bill with the poison pill.

The democrats are trying to add two congressional seats for D.C. so that they can have a majority that is filibuster proof or something, but the republicans added to the bill that D.C. has to roll back all of their gun laws if the bill passes.

But it really isn't poison. The politicians are just afraid of black people with guns and they aren't concerned with the repercussions of any legislation if it does not effect them.

[wash]

Two weeks!

Had to.

The MSJ has about 20 days in which DC is supposed to respond. DC is asking for more time to respond and to consolidate our case with Dick Heller's case. Ours would move a lot faster if not consolidated so we've asked not to be consolidated.

The court may not grant an extension to DC to file a reply to the SJ. If DC is forced to reply then we could get a district court ruling in 90-100 days.

-Gene

MSJ? What's that? Isn't Heller done? What's the case they want to consolidate in to the roster case? SJ, is that like MSJ?

[elenius]

MSJ? What's that? Isn't Heller done? What's the case they want to consolidate in to the roster case? SJ, is that like MSJ?

Motion for Summary Judgment. Just figured that one out myself :)

[hoffmang]

MSJ? What's that? Isn't Heller done? What's the case they want to consolidate in to the roster case? SJ, is that like MSJ?

To echo:

MSJ = Motion for Summary Judgement.

Heller was the case we all saw Alan Gura argue in DC. Heller II is Dick Heller's follow up with Stephen Halbrook and NRA representing Dick Heller.

-Gene

[elenius]

To echo:

MSJ = Motion for Summary Judgement.

Heller was the case we all saw Alan Gura argue in DC. Heller II is Dick Heller's follow up with Stephen Halbrook and NRA representing Dick Heller.

-Gene

What is the status of Heller II and what is at stake there?

[2009_gunner]

What is the status of Heller II and what is at stake there?

It looks like DC considers semi-auto pistols to be machine guns, and so has banned them. Really!

http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008/07/28/heller-v-dc/
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/07/heller_ii_is_fi.php
http://www.dcwatch.com/issues/gun080728.htm

From reading a bit, it also looks like it's impossible to buy a gun in DC. The city won't allow a gun store to open, and residents can't buy guns in neighboring states.

[hoffmang]

What is the status of Heller II and what is at stake there?

It's an "all that and the kitchen sink" challenge to DC's laws. It's very early and Halbrook has laid out a very long timeline for it. It does include AW challenges and challenges to registration as well as a duplicate challenge to the CA Handgun Roster.

-Gene

[elenius]

It's an "all that and the kitchen sink" challenge to DC's laws. It's very early and Halbrook has laid out a very long timeline for it. It does include AW challenges and challenges to registration as well as a duplicate challenge to the CA Handgun Roster.

-Gene

Excellent!
So nothing has been filed yet?

[hoffmang]

Excellent!
So nothing has been filed yet?

It's been filed but its timelines are much longer than our case.

-Gene

[Warhawk014]

very exciting stuff. cant wait to see this come to fruition. after the roster we go after the aw ban correct.

[scc1909]

Just made a modest donation to the Foundation. Keep up the good work!