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View Full Version : Sig P226R Navy and the P228R


Spyrish
03-08-2009, 6:47 PM
Hi,

I was just wondering if they were on the list.

I know the P226 Navy is, but the P226R Navy is not on the list. Same with the P228R- not on the list, but the P228 is on the list.

Does the R for rail make a difference?

leelaw
03-08-2009, 6:59 PM
Yes, the R (rail) designation makes a difference.

It's silly, but until the specific mode you want is listed (or NeRFs come to fruition), pass on it.

MotoGuy
03-08-2009, 8:19 PM
I believe the Navy only comes with a rail. The P226 Navy I bought new from a CA dealer last summer had a rail.

Spyrish
03-08-2009, 9:18 PM
Cool, thanks. That's what I thought. I do have one of the first Navy's no rail and wanted another with the rail.

TwitchALot
04-16-2009, 8:11 PM
Yes, the R (rail) designation makes a difference.

It's silly, but until the specific mode you want is listed (or NeRFs come to fruition), pass on it.

I'm not so sure about this one. The law states:

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of
subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same
manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from
the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in
grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter
the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine
well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the
firing mechanism of the firearm.

Number 4 being the point of contention. Now, a rail is not a purely cosmetic feature, but what modification would fall under the 4th category that wouldn't fall under the first three? What's the point of the last point if no other modification is purely cosmetic? In one sense, the rail is purely cosmetic, because it doesn't change how the firearm functions or whether it would pass any of California's safety tests. At the same time, it's not purely cosmetic because it could serve another purpose beyond cosmetics.

Suppose that instead, Sig made a P228F, where the F stands for a fiber optic sight. Would this qualify under the 4th point? The DOJ says, "All handguns listed on the roster are approved with or without night sights." But this is not a night sight - it's a fiber optic sight. It's cosmetic, but it is not purely cosmetic, because it would serve to help see the sights better. Eh? I'd say I could argue yes, but I'd also say that the state could argue no, because it's not "purely" cosmetic.


As for handguns approved with the R on the list already - I think that's more of a better safe than sorry sort of deal for manufacturers. But as far as the letter of the law goes, I don't think it's very clear at all what that 4th point was meant to apply to. I want to believe rails qualify, and I think you could win at trial if you had to, but I also believe you could go to trial based on the fact that you have a railed gun in the first place (where the original model is approved on the list), because the state may very well argue it's not PURELY cosmetic.

But then, what is? What's the point of that 4th point if not to allow the sale of handguns that are mechanically completely identical (for "safety" purposes) but are otherwise cosmetically different? I think you could easily make the case the 228R is as safe, and qualifies as safe, under the law because the 228 is approved. But it's a risk. I don't think it's clearly illegal/legal at all. An argument could be made both ways in court, and the "R" could get you in court, if the state wanted. But I also think you'd stand a decent chance of winning, so...

esskay
04-16-2009, 8:52 PM
I believe the Navy only comes with a rail. The P226 Navy I bought new from a CA dealer last summer had a rail.

IIRC, Sig made 226 Navy models without a rail initially and then later started making them with rails, but I don't think they actually changed the "P226 Navy" model designation.

1911su16b870
04-16-2009, 9:00 PM
I have an old 226 Navy w/o the rail. I may be talked/traded/consider selling with the right offer! :D

jimrod
04-16-2009, 9:09 PM
SIG website states the current Navy model with rail is CA compliant, however, they submitted the non-rail version to the CA DOJ for approval and apparently have not submitted the new, railed version. The DOJ doesn't take kindly to handguns that don't match the gun they tested exactly (rails, finish, frame and slide material, etc.) - the only exception is day sights vs. night sights as it doesn't matter which the gun comes with. I know it doesn't make sense, especially when your talking something so insignificant as a rail vs. no rail. There are instances where dealers bring in guns that are a stretch of the rostered gun list either knowingly or not, so you may find an occassional NAVY with a rail NIB at a dealer.

TwitchALot
04-16-2009, 9:22 PM
SIG website states the current Navy model with rail is CA compliant, however, they submitted the non-rail version to the CA DOJ for approval and apparently have not submitted the new, railed version. The DOJ doesn't take kindly to handguns that don't match the gun they tested exactly (rails, finish, frame and slide material, etc.) - the only exception is day sights vs. night sights as it doesn't matter which the gun comes with. I know it doesn't make sense, especially when your talking something so insignificant as a rail vs. no rail. There are instances where dealers bring in guns that are a stretch of the rostered gun list either knowingly or not, so you may find an occassional NAVY with a rail NIB at a dealer.

Jim, see my post above.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of
subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same
manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from
the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating,
oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in
grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions,
material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel,
the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the
firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter
the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine
well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the
firing mechanism of the firearm.

The DOJ might not like OLL's either- but they are legal (provided obviously, you actually follow the law).

jcal0820
04-16-2009, 9:29 PM
To clarify, is the Navy P226 or P226R the Navy SEAL issued version?

jimrod
04-16-2009, 9:31 PM
Thanks for the heads up on finish, don't understand why the roster would even specify finish at all if the penal code is flexible on this item.

9mmlaw
04-17-2009, 6:14 AM
Since Navy Seals have been using the 226 longer than Sig has been making the railed model I assume it is a non-railed version, however, I am not sure if Sig even makes a non-railed 226 anymore.

TwitchALot
04-17-2009, 10:24 AM
I contacted the DOJ today, and the R does make a difference. If the DOJ abides by the cited PC I posted, Sig Sauer doesn't seem to believe it, because they seem to have to test guns even though there are only cosmetic changes to the guns. So, at least in practice, it seems like the section I cited is useless. :( :confused:

jasilva
04-17-2009, 11:32 AM
To clarify, is the Navy P226 or P226R the Navy SEAL issued version?

Just an FYI, the "Navy SEAL" version of the P226 and the standard version are identical except for the globe and anchor emblem on the slide, and about a $100.

esskay
04-20-2009, 9:07 AM
IIRC for that premium, didn't Sig advertise some sort of special phosphate type coating that they put on the Navy versions (including small parts)

jasilva
04-20-2009, 12:05 PM
IIRC for that premium, didn't Sig advertise some sort of special phosphate type coating that they put on the Navy versions (including small parts)

It's not listed in the catalog. But if you look at the specs, everything that matters for function is identical, sights, grips, frame and slide materials, etc.

calixt0
04-20-2009, 12:17 PM
as far as i can tell there is no p226r. if you look at sigs website there are all types of P226 but P226r is not one of them. All the ones I see on their website there is no seperate version with R for rail. All the P226's I see on their website all have rails under the barrel.


sorry just to add. i know 2 different people that have P226's one is just a standard 226 and one is the navy and they both have rails...

TZL
04-20-2009, 12:26 PM
I don't know about the Sig 228R, but the Sig 229 R is on the list, its functionally the same as a 228R from what I know....

jimrod
04-20-2009, 8:34 PM
All current SIG P226 Navy's have rails, whereas the original version which was submitted to the CA DOJ did not. Original Navy's had phosphate internals per gov't specifications to protect against corrosion from salt water and SIG eliminated the special treatment on commercial Navy's sometime after the rail was introduced. I've heard that SIG reintroduced the phosphate coating on the commercial guns but have not seen a current example to confirm it.

Here's the s/n prefixes and their cofigurations in the order of their introduction to the market:

NSW-Navy : NON-RAIL, two 10 rounds mag.
U-Navy : NON-RAIL, two/three 15 rounds mag. (3 mags for the overrun deal.)
U/UU-Navy : RAIL, two 15 rounds mag. UU has the US made frame.
Value from high to low : NSW - U - UU

chefdude
04-20-2009, 9:00 PM
not to thread jack but the Sig P220Combat and p226combat have phosphate coting...

jimmytheshank
02-20-2011, 7:47 PM
I have an old 226 Navy w/o the rail. I may be talked/traded/consider selling with the right offer! :D

Hope you still have it, cause I'm sending you a PM!

Shane916
02-20-2011, 8:31 PM
You're right the R isnt listed on the roster for navy's, however most shops carry them and will happily DROS it for you as the 226 navy. Don't bother getting advice from BOF on the matter.

Plisk
02-20-2011, 8:53 PM
This is interesting that only non-railed models are on list for the Navys. I'm going to talk to my Sig rep about this. The P228R and P228 are both on-list. Check again.

To answer some questions said in the thread. Yes, the Navys did originally come non-railed. And the first 500 I believe had a special run in their Serial number "NSW XXX" Then in 2004 any applicable model that would accept a rail had them, they became mandatory. Prior to '04 both models were available. As for the SEALs, or any other members of the NSW that have them in arsenal, all of theirs are non-railed frames with 1-piece and Multi-piece slides. If they use weapons lights, they use Surefire (or equivalent) clamp on light-rail mounts.

The only special features to the Navy are a darker more matte Nitron finish, along with the Navy Anchor on the slide. The ejection port cover on the barrel is shaped differently on top from other Sigs, and is coated all the way around. So no shiny part on top. There is no phosphate coating on the parts, as others have said, that is only on the Combat models. New Navys are also shipping with 3 magazines.

Shane916
02-20-2011, 10:31 PM
I realized the thread was from 2009 after I posted lol. For the NSW version of the 226, Sig created and serialed something around 2000.

jeffrice6
02-21-2011, 12:01 AM
NSW's were 1 of 2000 and had no rails... Absolutly Beautiful =)

jimmytheshank
02-21-2011, 11:56 AM
NSW's were 1 of 2000 and had no rails... Absolutly Beautiful =)

Yup,

Sig shoulda just stuck to the non-rail type, or offered both varieties.
The rail is a good thing, but I like the old style a LOT better.

SIGSHOOTR
02-21-2011, 11:36 PM
I need some clarity here-- so do all P226 Navy pistols have the phosphate coating? How can you tell- what does it look like? My pistol's serial # starts with UU and on the case, the label reads "NSWG" and has the anchor on the slide. Manufacture year is 2010. It came with 3 10 round mags. I read after I had bought the gun that these guns were supposed to have some kind of certificate, mine did not. What differentiates a Navy from a regular P226? Is it just the phosphate coating and the anchor on the slide? If so, and the newer guns do not have this coating-- then WTF is SIG marketing this gun as "identical to the pistol carried by the US Navy SEALs..."? Lastly, is mine a German made frame? It says Exeter, NH on it I still love this gun in every way, but a bit puzzled after reading some of the threads here. Thanks in advance for any info.

Plisk
02-22-2011, 7:43 AM
I need some clarity here-- so do all P226 Navy pistols have the phosphate coating? How can you tell- what does it look like? My pistol's serial # starts with UU and on the case, the label reads "NSWG" and has the anchor on the slide. Manufacture year is 2010. It came with 3 10 round mags. I read after I had bought the gun that these guns were supposed to have some kind of certificate, mine did not. What differentiates a Navy from a regular P226? Is it just the phosphate coating and the anchor on the slide? If so, and the newer guns do not have this coating-- then WTF is SIG marketing this gun as "identical to the pistol carried by the US Navy SEALs..."? Lastly, is mine a German made frame? It says Exeter, NH on it I still love this gun in every way, but a bit puzzled after reading some of the threads here. Thanks in advance for any info.

Ok.

I mis-spoke in my last post. The Navy's don't have a "darker more matte phosphate finish" They have a darker more matte Nitron finish. Same finish as all the other Sigs. They DO NOT have the extra phosphate coatings like the Combat models do. It's a plain jane 226 as far as parts and coatings are concerned. Your "UU" serial is the same as mine. It's a recent US manufacturer. NSWG stands for Naval Special Warfare Group. This model is a tribute model to the NSW guys that carry a Sig pistol, typically a 226 but they carry others such as 229 and 239. The only physical difference between a Navy and 226 is the darker matte Nitron finish, the anchor, and a Combat barrel. See my above post about that.

Your gun is a US made frame most likely unless it says "Made in Germany". Some new frames are, some aren't. Sig is marketing as the Navy SEALs pistol because SEALs do carry 226s. Except theirs are not new. None of their pistols (at least the West Coats Teams) have Railed models. All of theirs are German Rail-less frames with a mix of 1-piece and multi-piece slides. The fact that they advertise it as "the same as Navy SEALs" is just marketing. The SEALs are the most publicly accepted and admired Special Forces unit. Why not try to make bank off of it? It's also a tribute to all the guys in NSW. It's the same with the "Combat" models. No combat unit anywhere has those, it's purely commercial.

I love mine too. The more matte finish I like, and the 3rd mag they ship with is a nice bonus. Only thing left to add is an X300, SRT, and about 5000 rounds downrange. That should be a good start. :D

SIGSHOOTR
02-22-2011, 9:21 AM
Ok.

I mis-spoke in my last post. The Navy's don't have a "darker more matte phosphate finish" They have a darker more matte Nitron finish. Same finish as all the other Sigs. They DO NOT have the extra phosphate coatings like the Combat models do. It's a plain jane 226 as far as parts and coatings are concerned. Your "UU" serial is the same as mine. It's a recent US manufacturer. NSWG stands for Naval Special Warfare Group. This model is a tribute model to the NSW guys that carry a Sig pistol, typically a 226 but they carry others such as 229 and 239. The only physical difference between a Navy and 226 is the darker matte Nitron finish, the anchor, and a Combat barrel. See my above post about that.

Your gun is a US made frame most likely unless it says "Made in Germany". Some new frames are, some aren't. Sig is marketing as the Navy SEALs pistol because SEALs do carry 226s. Except theirs are not new. None of their pistols (at least the West Coats Teams) have Railed models. All of theirs are German Rail-less frames with a mix of 1-piece and multi-piece slides. The fact that they advertise it as "the same as Navy SEALs" is just marketing. The SEALs are the most publicly accepted and admired Special Forces unit. Why not try to make bank off of it? It's also a tribute to all the guys in NSW. It's the same with the "Combat" models. No combat unit anywhere has those, it's purely commercial.

I love mine too. The more matte finish I like, and the 3rd mag they ship with is a nice bonus. Only thing left to add is an X300, SRT, and about 5000 rounds downrange. That should be a good start. :D

Hey Plisk-- Thanks very much for all the helpful info. Much appreciated. I just got off the phone with Sig Sauer in Exeter and the rep told me that the newer Navy pistols do in fact have the phosphate coating inside. He said that they had stopped putting the phosphate coat for 2-3 years but then started up again with the newer models. I gave him my serial number and he confirmed that it had the phosphate coat. Could he be BS'ing me? :rolleyes: When I mentioned that I had 3 mags without the phosphate coating, he said that since I live in CA those guns were shipped with standard 10-rd double stacks and that all the new Navy pistols come with standard blued mags. Hmmmm. What do ya think?

Plisk
02-22-2011, 11:33 AM
Hey Plisk-- Thanks very much for all the helpful info. Much appreciated. I just got off the phone with Sig Sauer in Exeter and the rep told me that the newer Navy pistols do in fact have the phosphate coating inside. He said that they had stopped putting the phosphate coat for 2-3 years but then started up again with the newer models. I gave him my serial number and he confirmed that it had the phosphate coat. Could he be BS'ing me? :rolleyes: When I mentioned that I had 3 mags without the phosphate coating, he said that since I live in CA those guns were shipped with standard 10-rd double stacks and that all the new Navy pistols come with standard blued mags. Hmmmm. What do ya think?

They do have the coating? Sweet, I'm going to give my Rep a call and confirm this for mine too! I don't think he's BSing you. But if he is, I'll find out soon and confirm/deny. Yea, all the Navy's we have coming through are the full metal blued mags. Not like the phosphate mags with the plastic nub on the end. I like the blued ones better, they look like big boy mags and not cheapy plastic filled mags.

All you've told me sounds correct, I'll confirm/deny the coating soon.

SIGSHOOTR
02-22-2011, 12:35 PM
They do have the coating? Sweet, I'm going to give my Rep a call and confirm this for mine too! I don't think he's BSing you. But if he is, I'll find out soon and confirm/deny. Yea, all the Navy's we have coming through are the full metal blued mags. Not like the phosphate mags with the plastic nub on the end. I like the blued ones better, they look like big boy mags and not cheapy plastic filled mags.

All you've told me sounds correct, I'll confirm/deny the coating soon.

Great! look forward to what you learn. Thanks.

hybridatsun350
02-22-2011, 12:58 PM
Hope you still have it, cause I'm sending you a PM!

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3641/necropostkitten.jpg

SIGSHOOTR
02-23-2011, 12:37 PM
NSW's were 1 of 2000 and had no rails... Absolutly Beautiful =)

Wow-- do you have a pic of the original NSW P226? Would love to see how they looked like.

1911su16b870
02-23-2011, 1:42 PM
Here is mine...

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/19/img0105ir.jpg

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7797/img0106eo.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/77/img0107gd.jpg

SIGSHOOTR
02-23-2011, 2:37 PM
Here is mine...

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/19/img0105ir.jpg

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7797/img0106eo.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/77/img0107gd.jpg

Wow! Beautiful! Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:

SIGSHOOTR
02-24-2011, 3:16 PM
Just an FYI, the "Navy SEAL" version of the P226 and the standard version are identical except for the globe and anchor emblem on the slide, and about a $100.

Actually, according to the folks at Exeter-- for the 2009 to present production 226R Navy pistols, SIG reintroduced the phosphate coating. It also has a combat barrel. As Plisk mentioned, the Navy has a darker matte nitron finish. And fyi: it's an anchor on the slide since it's a Navy pistol. The globe and anchor belongs to the Marines.

Plisk
02-24-2011, 8:06 PM
Actually, according to the folks at Exeter-- for the 2009 to present production 226R Navy pistols, SIG reintroduced the phosphate coating. It also has a combat barrel. As Plisk mentioned, the Navy has a darker matte nitron finish. And fyi: it's an anchor on the slide since it's a Navy pistol. The globe and anchor belongs to the Marines.

Put in an email to my Rep yesterday, I'll hear back soon about the coating. Yea it is the Navy Anchor, not the Marine Eagle, Globe, and Anchor.

The Navy is not listed on Sig Sauer's website anymore.... I hope I didn't break Sig showing them the list error.

Mr310
02-24-2011, 8:29 PM
Hmm. I have a down payment on a sig 226 navy and it has a rail. It's already at an FFL in California so I assume there's no problem?

Plisk
02-24-2011, 8:30 PM
Hmm. I have a down payment on a sig 226 navy and it has a rail. It's already at an FFL in California so I assume there's no problem?

Problems arise when you actually DROS it. 99.9% chance your dealer will DROS it as the Navy that's on-list. Don't bring it up to them.

Mr310
02-24-2011, 8:34 PM
Problems arise when you actually DROS it. 99.9% chance your dealer will DROS it as the Navy that's on-list. Don't bring it up to them.

Ah. Thanks for the heads-up. I was a bit confused after I had read similar posts on the forum but was afraid to bring it up for the reason that I thought the gun wasn't allowed. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle. ;)

SIGSHOOTR
02-24-2011, 8:37 PM
Put in an email to my Rep yesterday, I'll hear back soon about the coating. Yea it is the Navy Anchor, not the Marine Eagle, Globe, and Anchor.

The Navy is not listed on Sig Sauer's website anymore.... I hope I didn't break Sig showing them the list error.

Wow... it really is gone from the site! Geezus. Plisk, what did you do? :D

Plisk
02-24-2011, 9:06 PM
Wow... it really is gone from the site! Geezus. Plisk, what did you do? :D

I think I made an oopsie.

Plisk
02-25-2011, 11:59 AM
Ok, no one fret.

I talked to my rep and he told me that the Navy's have ALWAYS had the phosphate coating along with the "Combat" barrels. They were the first models to get that coating because that feature is what the NSW issue pistols have in them. They brought that feature into the Navy, and it reciprocated (along with the Combat Barrel) into the Combat models. The Navy pre-date them, so they were the original P226 Combat sort of. And the reason it was removed from the website? Not my fault! They are re-doing the photos for the model. It will go back up soon.

SIGSHOOTR
02-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Ok, no one fret.

I talked to my rep and he told me that the Navy's have ALWAYS had the phosphate coating along with the "Combat" barrels. They were the first models to get that coating because that feature is what the NSW issue pistols have in them. They brought that feature into the Navy, and it reciprocated (along with the Combat Barrel) into the Combat models. The Navy pre-date them, so they were the original P226 Combat sort of. And the reason it was removed from the website? Not my fault! They are re-doing the photos for the model. It will go back up soon.

:thumbsup: