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View Full Version : Follow up on my P-22/CADOJ dealings...


booknut
10-22-2005, 12:38 PM
Alright,
since someone 'messed up' my calguns internet website here and 'lost' all my previous posts about my P-22, letters, etc.
I have to start a new thread.
:D

I have a letter dated September 30, 2005 from Randy Rossi, Director of the Firearms Division, CADOJ.

He states:
Dear California Walther P-22 Owner:
This is a follow-up letter to the April 2005 letter from the California Department of Justice regarding your Walther P-22 pistol.

To reiterate, through no fault of your own, your P-22 pistol was sold in violation of California Penal Code section 12276.1(a)(4)(A), an assault weapon statute, because it has a threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor or illegal silencer.

The manufacturer of the Walther P-22 has established a "no cost to you" retrofit program to bring your P-22 pistol into compliance with California law. The retrofit program will end effective November 30, 2005. Owners/possessors of P-22 pistols that are not retrofitted could be subject to arrest and prosecution for violation of Penal Code section 12280(b). Consequently, we strongly urge you to immediately take part in the enclosed no cost offer to retrofit your P-22 pistol. This is your last chance to have your P-22 pistol retrofitted free of charge and avoid the possibility of being arrested and prosecuted for a violation of Penal Code section 12280(b).

Further, the Californai Department of Justice has taken steps to prevent the lawful sale/transfer of P-22 pistols that have not been retrofitted. Persons who attempt to sell/transfer a P-22 pistol that has not been retrofitted withing the state could be subject to arrest and prosecution for violating Penal Code sections 12280(a) and 12280(b).

If you no longer own/possess your Walther P-22 pistol, please complete the "Notice of No Longer in Possession" form on the reverse side of this letter and return it to the address indicated on this letter.

If you have questions regarding the enclosed shipping instructions or status of the retrofit of your P-22 pistol, please contact Smith & Wesson at 1-800-331-0852 ext. 2905. If you have questions regarding California firearms laws, please contact the Department of Justice, Firearms Division at (916)263-4887 or visit our website at: www.ag.ca.gov/firearms

Sincerely,

Randy Rossi, Director
Firearms Division

For Bill Lockyer
Attorney General

I have in my possession a Walther P-22 WITHOUT a barrel inserted. In fact the barrel is not even near the gun. The gun is locked up in it's factory case.

I also have in my possession a letter from Randy (or one of his agents), answering my earlier questions about barrel removal and compliance.
The answer was that removal of the barrel would keep the P-22 from being classified as an assault weapon.

Maybe this weekend I'll post all my letters...now that we have all this FRESH bandwidth! bwahahahahaha

Funny thing....I'm not shaking....yet! :D

Guess I should call in my buddies from SAF, CRKBA, NRA, GOA so they can back me up here :rolleyes:

For those who want to give me a load of crap over this, or tell me what a fool I am, or who my 'cellmate' is gonna be...

say what you want.
I'm standing MY ground... how about YOU!?
:cool:

OKAY, NOW I'M REALLY MAD! I JUST FOUND OUT I CAN ONLY HAVE 4 IMAGES PER POST AND I HAD TO ERASE MY FIFTH ONE!
I'M GONNA MOVE OUT OF THIS STATE IF ANY OLD SITE ADMINISTRATOR CAN BAN IMAGES OVER 4!

bwiese
10-22-2005, 1:52 PM
Booknut..

You're OK. You'll just get nasty insistent letters from DOJ driven by some mailing list software.

You should send a nice letter to Randy Rossi & Tim Riegert stating that you are going to maintain a P22 in disassembled state and are not assembling it while in CA. Ask them that if this is not legal, when can you preschedule your arrest? ;)

Remind them that nothing in CA law mandates this work be done by S&W either. YOU can do it, you can find a smith to do it, etc.

This is EXACTLY equivalent to a gripless FAL.

For safety's sake I would keep the bbl and the gun locked in separate boxes.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Forever-A-Soldier
10-22-2005, 11:35 PM
I don't understand why we can't just mail the barrels in. I still don't like the idea of shipping my gun and hoping it gets returned. All I can think of is PRK-DOJ thinks we won't be honest and send in a "spare" barrel for retrofit and keep the original. It's just one more hassle the PRK.gov wants to shove down our throats.

F.A.S. Out
(& stuck in the Sandbox)

Forever-A-Soldier
10-23-2005, 9:54 PM
Tech.Ted; thanks for the feedback. Been 14+ months since I broke mine down last (this little War thing has gotten in the way ;) ). I remember removing the muzzle nut, but I also thought there was a pin/screw/something that locked the barrel assembly onto the frame. If you can post pics to refresh my memory, that would be awesome. Though the Iraqis here have Walther P99s, no P22s to check out in person. Oh well, 3 more months left.

F.A.S. Out

saki302
10-24-2005, 12:27 AM
Hmm.. I wonder if you could 'roll your own' fix-

Grind off the threads of the barrel, make a new barrel nut which is smooth to match the barrel, and drill a roll-pin hole into it.

You could use thin washers to adjust the tightness if desired. This way, you can still disassemble your gun for cleaning :P

-Dave

Forever-A-Soldier
10-24-2005, 7:39 AM
Technical Ted; THANKS! Now I remember. When you take the barrel nut off, the sleeve comes out allowing you to remove it from the (sideplate? - according to the pic) but looks like a barrel ring. Anyway, I understand now. Hmmm... well looks like I'll just have to take mine out of state to the and buy another 1/2 dozen for the family that are PRK-approved! :D

Fricken' Kali. :mad: Thanks again T.T.!

F.A.S. Out

artherd
10-24-2005, 12:42 PM
CA DOJ has already opined (in a very good letter from Tim Rigert a Deputy AG and Bar certified attorney) that they do not consider 'constructive posession' of Category 3 (features based) AWs.

booknut
10-25-2005, 9:58 PM
Technical Ted
"Just so you know, smileys count as images in this new software."

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT! (mad face smiley here, if I could afford one)
First they start adding up things we can't put on our rifles, NOW they are telling us how many smileys we can put in our posts!(I would add a 'roll eyes' smiley, but I might want to put some in later)

What's next?
(BIG Smiley face here to indicate I'm just foolin' with ya'll (winky smiley here just to let you know I thought my idea of a BIG Smiley face and my little joke, was kool)


bwiese,
when can you preschedule your arrest?

I CAN DO THAT?!
Do I call my buddy Randy up and schedule this or 'what's-her-name'?
(Smiley face sticking toungue out here, just for teasing bweise about his little joke)

I've been brainstorming about how to get around this whole thing.
First, I either need a factory barrel with no threads, or the 5" with the threads cut off.
Then, turn a new sleeve with set screws and threaded holes for such.
Re-assemble and go shoot.

Someday I'll find the time to try it and I'll let all you guys know how it went.
(Thumbs up smiley here because I'm trying to be 'one of the crew' by sharing my idea...no matter how useless it may be)
Here it comes...LOOK OUT! CALGUNS SMILEY AVALANCHE...WOOOOOOO
:confused: :eek: :p :D

M1A Rifleman
10-26-2005, 7:01 AM
Thanks all for the good information. A buddy of mine has one of these and does not want to go through the hassel of returning for the repair - I am trying to convince him otherwise.

Regarding the return to Walther/S&W for the barrel conversion/repair: What is the reason that non AW permit holders are allowed to send the gun back, as it appears DOJ has determined it to be an AW? I thought only AW permit holders were allowed to send in/out of CA??

booknut
10-26-2005, 2:00 PM
I'm going to find my original letter and reply from DOJ and post it here for you guys.

I'm really sorry this info didn't make it out before everyone started sending off their handguns.
There's GOT to be a way to work around this and still be able to shoot the darn thing, which will be too late for many.

If they come to get me I'll just claim it's because of my disability...I have Adult ADD!

My letter - May 17, 2005

Booknut (not my real name)
P.O.Box 00000
Humboldt County, CA 9000000



Randy Rossi, Director
Firearms Division
Department of Justice
P.O.Box 820200
Sacramento, CA 94203-0200


Dear Mr. Rossi:

I received your letter and package concerning my Walther P-22 pistol. As I understand it, this pistol is considered an assault weapon because of itís threaded barrel.
In your letter, you state that I should see to it that the threads on the barrel are covered with a permanent fixture making them unavailable for attaching items such as flash suppressors, sound suppressors and the like. You recommend this work be done by the company known as Smith & Wesson.
While I am interested in cooperating and complying with our stateís firearms laws, I do have other questions which I hope you can answer.

1. Is the threaded barrel while attached to the handgun the sole violation of California law?
2. In the letter, you mention that having the pistol modified to have the threads permanently covered complies with California law. Does this relate solely to California Statute 2003 Dangerous Weapons Controls Law Chapter 2.3, Article 1, section 12276.1 (a)(4)(A)?
3. What other options are available for me to bring this pistol into compliance with state law?
4. Is the ability to modify the pistol exclusively that of Smith & Wessonís and if so, which statute/law makes that true?
5. You are basically allowing me to violate the assault weapons ban by continued possession of this handgun for 45 more days. Has there been some sort of legal extension granted to the owners of the Walther P-22 with threaded barrel, so we escape any legal action for the 45 days you have listed on my letter? Where may I get a copy of this directive?
6. If this violation is purely about the threaded barrel, can I just send the barrel out of state but keep the rest of the pistol? I believe that on your website, you mention that if the offending characteristics that make a firearm an assault weapon (not counting the AR15 and AK47 series ban), are removed, then the firearm is no longer an assault weapon. I understand that this originally applied to assault weapons prior to the bans taking effect, and it seems as though a new extension has been granted just for this pistol/assault weapon.
7. Other than the issue of the threaded barrel, does the Walther P22 pistol meet all other safety requirements for handguns allowed to be sold in this state?

Thank you for your time and help with this issue. I appreciate the manner in which your office is trying to remedy the situation. I hope you can extend your efforts towards answering my questions. Together, Iím sure we can clarify this problem in the best manner possible.

Sincerely,

Booknut (not my real name)


The CADOJ Reply - July 20,2005

Booknut
P.O.Box XXXX
Humboldt County, CA 90000000000


RE: Walther P-22

Dear Mr. Booknut:

This correspondence is in response to your letter dated May 17th, 2005 in which you posed seven specific questions regarding the Walther P-22 issue. For your convenience, preceding each of the seven answers the corresponding question from your letter is re-stated.

Q1: Is the threaded barrel while attached to the handgun the sole violation of California Law?
A1: Yes, as originally manufactured.

Q2: In the letter, you mention that having the pistol modified to have the threads permanently covered complies with California law. Does this relate solely to California Statute 2003 Dangerous Weapons Controls Law Chapter 2.3, article 1, section 12276.1(a)(4)(A)?
A2: Yes, because it is pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1(a)(4)(A), that the threaded barrel on the Walther P-22 make it an assault weapon.

Q3: What other options are available for me to bring this pistol into compliance with state law?
A3: Removal of the offending characteristic (threaded barrel) is the only option by which the Walther P-22 can be made lawful as a non-assault weapon.

Q4: Is the ability to modify the pistol exclusively that of Smith & Wessonís and if so, which statute/law makes that true?
A4: No. However, the Smith & Wesson retrofit is the only method that the Department of Justice has determined to be sufficient in eliminating the threaded barrel characteristic. As such, Walther P-22s retrofitted by Smith & Wesson do not require any additional examination by DOJ. While any person with the needed gunsmithing skills may perform the alteration to remove the threaded barrel characteristic, such alteration would require individual examination by DOJ Firearm experts to ensure the alteration suffices in making the P-22 compliant with state law. Additionally, as you are well aware, the Smith & Wesson alteration is being offered to Walther P-22 owners free of charge.

Q5: Has there been some sort of legal extension granted to the owners of the Walther P-22 with threaded barrel, so we escape any legal action for the 45 days you have listed on my letter? Where may I get a copy of this directive?
A5: California law does not provide any exception or extension for owners of Walther P-22s. As stated in the DOJ letter to Walther P-22 owners, the retrofit ďwill protect you from any enforcement action relating to the assault weapon statute for the pistol that has been retrofitted.Ē Prior to completion of the retrofit making the P-22 a lawful firearm, the Department does not have statutory authority to grant any sort of formal exception to existing law. However, based on the unfortunate circumstances in which P-22 purchasers were not at fault in acquiring a firearm later determined to be illegal, we are confident that local law enforcement and district attorneys throughout the state will follow the Departmentís lead in not taking any arrest/prosecution action against P-22 owners participating in the Smith & Wesson retrofitting program.

Q6: If this violation is purely about the threaded barrel, can I just send the barrel out of state but keep the rest of the pistol?
A6: Yes. Because the threaded barrel was the only characteristic that made the Walther P-22 illegal for sale, purchase or possession in California, removing the barrel and sending it out of state would make the pistol lawful.

Q7: Other than the issue of the threaded barrel, does the Walther P-22 meet all other safety requirements for handguns allowed to be sold in this state?
A7: Yes.

If you have any additional questions regarding this issue, please feel free to contact me at (916)263-0802

Sincerely,
Allison Merrilees
Deputy Attorney General
Firearms Division

bwiese
10-26-2005, 2:21 PM
Oh, BTW - DOJ is also violating its own rules/laws:

The P22 w/threaded bbl is an assault weapon in CA. DOJ/local DAs will not prosecute, however. But there's a further violation if sent for repair... the DOJ advocates you directly mail in your P22 AW to Walther/S&W!

Generally, assault weapons must be shipped/received via utilization of an FFL dealer w/CA AW permit. Type III AWs (of which the P22 is) must have offending features separated to be treated as a normal firearm; I'll bet the DOJ didn't tell folks to break down the gun before shipping.

No one's even thought of that one - at DOJ or elsewhere...

Hmm, let's see: DOJ has now established, with their own words & actions, that they are directing a repeated pattern of crimes. Doesn't CA have a state-level RICO charge we could bust DOJ with? <bseg> ;)

Oh, hold it, the Attorney General would be prosecuting his own organization... I believe the Feds come in when there are questions of state gov't crimes in which the state can't reliably prosecute itself???? After all, the 'people' are not being served when their gov't violates its own laws for its own convenience.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

bwiese
10-26-2005, 2:27 PM
Q4: Is the ability to modify the pistol exclusively that of Smith & Wessonís and if so, which statute/law makes that true?

A4: No. However, the Smith & Wesson retrofit is the only method that the Department of Justice has determined to be sufficient in eliminating the threaded barrel characteristic. As such, Walther P-22s retrofitted by Smith & Wesson do not require any additional examination by DOJ. While any person with the needed gunsmithing skills may perform the alteration to remove the threaded barrel characteristic, such alteration would require individual examination by DOJ Firearm experts to ensure the alteration suffices in making the P-22 compliant with state law. Additionally, as you are well aware, the Smith & Wesson alteration is being offered to Walther P-22 owners free of charge.

No P22 requires additional examination by DOJ. Writing a letter telling 'em you've modified it yourself with a nonthreaded bbl should be good enough (providing you found a nonthreaded bbl or were able to dethread your own bbl).

After that I don't think they have enough cause to execute a search warrant.
(You should contact a real attorney if in doubt on this).

You'll likely just get more nastygrams. Reply with a photo of mangled P22 and tell them to go f*** themselves, registered mail.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

M1A Rifleman
10-26-2005, 2:49 PM
[QUOTE=bwiese]Oh, BTW - DOJ is also violating its own rules/laws:

The P22 w/threaded bbl is an assault weapon in CA. DOJ/local DAs will not prosecute, however. But there's a further violation if sent for repair... the DOJ advocates you directly mail in your P22 AW to Walther/S&W!

Generally, assault weapons must be shipped/received via utilization of an FFL dealer w/CA AW permit. Type III AWs (of which the P22 is) must have offending features separated to be treated as a normal firearm; I'll bet the DOJ didn't tell folks to break down the gun before shipping.




This was my point/question earlier - as you posted, you need an AW permit to legally send in/out of state. Seems a bit weird DOJ would authorize this, but yet in the reply to the member above claim they have no authorization to give extensions to an arbitrary time limit. This smells bad!

artherd
10-26-2005, 3:35 PM
Yep, I caught this the first time the P22 business went around.

I don't have a P22, but asked several owners and none were directed to remove the gun from typeIII AW status.

Hey I'll sign on with a RICO class action to compell the feds to get involved :)


Oh, BTW - DOJ is also violating its own rules/laws:

The P22 w/threaded bbl is an assault weapon in CA. DOJ/local DAs will not prosecute, however. But there's a further violation if sent for repair... the DOJ advocates you directly mail in your P22 AW to Walther/S&W!

Generally, assault weapons must be shipped/received via utilization of an FFL dealer w/CA AW permit. Type III AWs (of which the P22 is) must have offending features separated to be treated as a normal firearm; I'll bet the DOJ didn't tell folks to break down the gun before shipping.

No one's even thought of that one - at DOJ or elsewhere...

booknut
10-27-2005, 8:24 AM
Bweise and Technical Ted... tsk, tsk, tsk!

You guys know better than that!
There is no such thing as, 'The Government' per say, it's just a collection of regular citizens attempting to do the right thing.
They want to go home and relax just like the rest of us.
You really wouldn't want to cause them any trouble, now would you?
(You might see a big condescending smiley here...if I weren't in the middle of a protest)

I think you all owe the folks in Sacramento, indeed any where in the state or on the internet they are hiding, a big fat apology. (wise-*** smiley not available)

(Big smiley will not be used here although most appropriate)

Yeah, I've thought of trying to use the RICO act for several fed/state errors.
One of those is the blackmailing of states by the feds over seatbelt/helmet/speed limit laws.
You know, where the feds say, "you can't have any highway funds unless you bow to our wishes".

Perhaps we should start a letter campaign to our support groups like the NRA, NRA-ILA, SAF, RKBA, GOA, and the rest.
"WE WANT THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA CHARGED WITH VIOLATING THE ASSAULT WEAPONS LAWS OF CALIFORNIA!"

Of course we should discuss this first and see what harm will come of it when it does go to court...it would, wouldn't it?

I'll phone Sarah Brady right away! Maybe she can get the DOJ's guns taken away from them! (Sorry, you won't see any devilish smileys here...move along)