PDA

View Full Version : PPT hand gun: got pissed off at Stockade, Westminster


JSH
03-03-2009, 12:27 PM
A little bit lengthy since my English is my native language:

For it is close to my friend house, we decided to do PPT over there. I got there around 5:30. The senior sales person (might be store manager) ask me what if I need help, I told him I am waiting for my friend to do PPT. Then he said no later that 6PM because the store closes at 7PM. (sure, no problem for us since my friend was already on his way)

Then the senior started the application of putting down my info on the application package (thought he was nice). I told him I am not US citizen. He then changed the face faster than lighting, saying “you can not buy guns in US”, I then explained to him that I have valid passport, working visa with I-94 card, valid CA hunting license and other docs according to Federal law and CA law. But he still insisted that I am not eligible.

Another middle age person heard the argument, came and asked” do you have green card”, “no, I do not have it yet, but on the track on it”. “OK, according to the law, you can not buy guns”. Then I told him I bought two pistols already and no such law to prohibit me for buying firearm if I have valid passport and valid working visa (H1B) with valid stated issued hunting license. He then said those stores who sold guns to me broke the law, “those stores will soon be out of business”. I was about to leave:(.

Just at that time, a young person with shaved head came from inside the store, said I am eligible since I have all document. Then we started the application process (my friend just came in). I show him the unexpired car registration as proof of residence as required. But he said he needs three month utility bill as well. (I have them at home but since for last two purchases the car registration was accepted without any problem, I did not bring bills with me this time). I then told him only one proof of residence is needed: either car registration or utility bill is OK according to the law. But he said since you are neither US citizen nor green card holder, we need both documents. I have to educate him again that no such requirement exists in the law. Then he dug into the application package trying to find it, but couldn’t, and let me to bring the utility bill when I pick up the gun. I refused and walked away with my friend:mad:

It is sad that some gun store employees are not familiar with gun laws.

Called Mike at OC armory, went there finished the PPT within 15 minutes without attitude and arrogance:thumbsup:. We obey the law, but not "underground store law".

Rudolf the Red
03-03-2009, 12:38 PM
As a dealer, I am shocked that other dealers do not simply read the instructions on the forms. They might learn something!

In addition, the ATF and DOJ have these things called "phones". These "phones" allow people to talk to agents, ask questions, and learn stuff.

SONYEXEC
03-03-2009, 1:56 PM
I hate it when customer service types cop the attitude of " I know i"m right and you are wrong". I don't know why they don't say "I'm not 100% sure of X and don't want to risk violating a procedure so let me check with x,y or z before I complete this transaction for you." That's an honest answer and one I can understand and accept (although im sure their are a-holes out there that won't but that's another post) and accomodate. But, what do you expect for $8/hr

Gio
03-03-2009, 2:01 PM
Pee on them I say ;) If you were in the right and knew what you were doing I do not know why they could not of been a little more helpful or even picked up the phone to ask for help. I get a lot of looks and even the are you a U.S. Citizen question when I say I was born outside of the U.S. :D Good thing I was born a U.S. Citizen outside the Country :)

Glad OC Armory was able to help you out without any inconvinience to you and your friend :)

-Gio

12GAUGE
03-03-2009, 2:06 PM
What was the store?

1064chubbs
03-03-2009, 2:08 PM
Well at least you were able to finish the deal with a good dealer.

1064chubbs
03-03-2009, 2:08 PM
What was the store?

The Stockade in Westminster

PatriotnMore
03-03-2009, 2:27 PM
Brother I feel for you. Its getting to where I would rather go to the dentist then put up with some of the attitudes in gun store. I can tell you, the best experience I have had personally, has been at Fowlers gun room.

I am sure there may be others with different experiences, but for me, they were friendly, made the transaction quick, and I left feeling good about the store.

Saigon1965
03-03-2009, 2:29 PM
Yep - Mark his spot - LOL

Pee on them I say ;) If you were in the right and knew what you were doing I do not know why they could not of been a little more helpful or even picked up the phone to ask for help. I get a lot of looks and even the are you a U.S. Citizen question when I say I was born outside of the U.S. :D Good thing I was born a U.S. Citizen outside the Country :)

Glad OC Armory was able to help you out without any inconvinience to you and your friend :)

-Gio

nick
03-03-2009, 2:39 PM
Looking on the bright side, you discovered OC Armory :)

Wish they were closer to me...

The SoCal Gunner
03-03-2009, 2:39 PM
Brother I feel for you. Its getting to where I would rather go to the dentist then put up with some of the attitudes in gun store. I can tell you, the best experience I have had personally, has been at Fowlers gun room.

I am sure there may be others with different experiences, but for me, they were friendly, made the transaction quick, and I left feeling good about the store.

Stockade and Folwers are owned by the same people/person. I've had good experiences with PPTs at both and they usually do the transactions very quickly.

PatriotnMore
03-03-2009, 2:41 PM
I know, that's why I pointed it out. You can go to one place and get good service, and another, even owned by the same Co.. and get bad service.

JSH
03-03-2009, 2:49 PM
Thank you, fellows:)! Thanks for all FFL dealers support legal immigrants' gun right.

I feel that we, calgunners, should give support to new legal immigrants, because most of them came from "gun ban" countries or districts, and are educated with the fear of firearms. If no one make them firearm friendly, they will for sure join the gun ban family and vote for the favor of "gun control" lately when they become citizens.

jazman
03-03-2009, 3:08 PM
You did the right thing by "voting with your feet". If you are not treated right do not do business with the place, and find a place that will treat you correctly. Good job and congrats on your new gun.

Nevermore
03-03-2009, 3:34 PM
I've been fortunate that the FFLs with whom I've worked with so far have been familiar with gun purchases for non-citizens (I, too, am on track for a Green Card and am currently on an H-1B). But it is a major pain for the extra amount of paperwork.

In such cases, I'm glad to give my business to those FFLs who are happy to work with me in complying with the law without giving me the 'You're not allowed to buy guns because I'm ignorant of the law' speech.

RedDawn
03-03-2009, 3:39 PM
Glad it worked out for you.
Personally, I've never had good service at the Stockade either. You'd think they would go out of their way to provide better service to compensate for their higher prices.

Tho_Sun
03-03-2009, 3:46 PM
comment withdrawn

halifax
03-03-2009, 4:09 PM
I must have missed something here. Legal Aliens must prove 90 days residency by providing 3 consecutive months of utility bills (or equivalent) per ATF 4473 instructions:

SALE OF FIREARMS TO LEGAL ALIENS (PART 1): A buyer who is not a citizen of the United States must provide additional documentation (beyond a valid government-issued photo identification that contains the buyer’s name, residence address, and date of birth) to establish that he or she has resided in a State for at least 90 days prior to the date of the sale. See Definition 5. Examples of appropriate documents to establish State residency are utility bills from each of the last 3 months prior to the sale or a lease agreement which demonstrates 90 days of residency prior to the sale. (A licensee may attach a copy of the documentation to the ATF F 4473, rather than record the type of documentation in question 18b.)

Why is the dealer wrong?

JSH
03-03-2009, 5:03 PM
I must have missed something here. Legal Aliens must prove 90 days residency by providing 3 consecutive months of utility bills (or equivalent) per ATF 4473 instructions:


Why is the dealer wrong?

I provided the car registration which is the equivalent of 3 consecutive months of utility bills. they agreed to do DROP with it, but I must bring 3 consecutive months of utility bills when I pick it up, is that what the law says?

d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice" means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

Shane916
03-03-2009, 5:07 PM
i drove to grant boys in newport and bought my 10/22 and 3 banana clips.

Similar to this?

http://www.hahastop.com/pictures/Banana_Clip.jpg

Shane916
03-03-2009, 5:15 PM
I provided the car registration which is the equivalent of 3 consecutive months of utility bills. they agreed to do DROP with it, but I must bring 3 consecutive months of utility bills when I pick it up, is that what the law says?

d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice" means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.


The proof of residency you provided (car registration) suffices the state proof of residency. The 90 days of residency suffices the ATF requirement. You must comply with both, thus providing both.

JSH
03-03-2009, 5:27 PM
The proof of residency you provided (car registration) suffices the state proof of residency. The 90 days of residency suffices the ATF requirement. You must comply with both, thus providing both.

This is just one of the examples ATF gives. The car registration may also be another example of proof of residency which ATF did not mention but DOJ clarifies.

Anyway, did you know any dealer other than Stockade asks gun buyers providing 3 consecutive months of utility bills when picking up the gun after 10 days waiting period(DROS already finished).

Shane916
03-03-2009, 5:32 PM
Yes we require 90 days of consecutive bills for aliens to establish residency.

Here are the examples from the ATF:

Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include:

utility bills
lease agreements
credit card statements
pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.


You must provide one of these.

The CA DOJ and the ATF are two completely seperate enities with complete seperate requirements.

JSH
03-03-2009, 5:45 PM
Yes we require 90 days of consecutive bills for aliens to establish residency.

Here are the examples from the ATF:

Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include:

utility bills
lease agreements
credit card statements
pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.


You must provide one of these.

The CA DOJ and the ATF are two completely seperate enities with complete seperate requirements.


(B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?[Back]
An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication

ATF did not ask you to provide the proof after the sale finished. This is not a dealer sale, it is private party transfer, only CA requires FFL for PPT transfer, other states may not need FFL for PPT.

halifax
03-03-2009, 5:51 PM
I provided the car registration which is the equivalent of 3 consecutive months of utility bills. they agreed to do DROP with it, but I must bring 3 consecutive months of utility bills when I pick it up, is that what the law says?

d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice" means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.


What you are quoting is CA law. The 4473 is Federal and the Instructions attached to every 4473 give examples of what are "Acceptable documentaion to prove 90-day continuous residency" for legal aliens. Specifically:

utility bills, current bank statements, rent receipts, mortgage payments, lease agreements, personal property tax bills, documents issued by Federal, State, or local government agencies, first-class mail issued by government agency, insurance policies, or bill with current address or major credit card bill.

These examples are broad and varied. The most common proof is 90-days worth of utility bills. It has been on the 4473 for years so many dealers are more comfotable with it. Although not mentioned specifically, a dealer may infer that a vehicle registration at least 90 days old could be used per the bolded example above.

Shane916
03-03-2009, 6:03 PM
(B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?[Back]
An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication

ATF did not ask you to provide the proof after the sale finished. This is not a dealer sale, it is private party transfer, only CA requires FFL for PPT transfer, other states may not need FFL for PPT.

Indeed it is a PPT and not a dealer sale, however they are serving as a middleman which involves the same laws and regulations as a regular firearm purchase in regards to background checks/legal requirements. The buyer is still filling out a 4473 and to the best of my knowledge that requires 90 days proof of residency for legal aliens even on a PPT. We do start the DROS, but we don't release the weapon until the buyer brings in there 90 days proof of residency. It is likely the same for any FFL statewide.

JSH
03-03-2009, 6:13 PM
Have you phoned DOJ, ATF and other FFL dealers to confirm your following statement?

Indeed it is a PPT and not a dealer sale, however they are serving as a middleman which involves the same laws and regulations as a regular firearm purchase in regards to background checks/legal requirements. The buyer is still filling out a 4473 and to the best of my knowledge that requires 90 days proof of residency for legal aliens even on a PPT. We do start the DROS, but we don't release the weapon until the buyer brings in there 90 days proof of residency. It is likely the same for any FFL statewide.

As I know, no FFL, except Stockade and maybe you, will start DROS if a doc is missing. I might be wrong, correct me if any.

Josh
03-03-2009, 6:50 PM
DROS has nothing to do with the 4473 except for a reference box to bypass the federal background check with the state DROS background check. They have different requirements for paperwork. Also the form is not finalized untill the second portion is completed and the firearm is released. So you can fill out the form without everything being there, you just can not release the firearm.

The state proof of residency does not satisfy the federal requirement for proof of 90days continuous residency.

And i have talked to the ATF about this.

You have satisfied the state requirements which is why the DROS can be started as it deals with the state. The 4473 is federal and completely separate. The reason the federal requirements apply is because even though it is a PPT the state requries it go through a dealer and any transaction that is conducted through a dealer must be completed on a 4473 per federal law. Thus they are linked in this state.

halifax
03-03-2009, 7:00 PM
Have you phoned DOJ, ATF and other FFL dealers to confirm your following statement?



As I know, no FFL, except Stockade and maybe you, will start DROS if a doc is missing. I might be wrong, correct me if any.

Dealers do it all the time, I do. If the document isn't required to enter DROS data, e.g., HSC, DL, Lock Make Model#, it can wait. The firearm doesn't get released until the missing document is provided.

The DROS can always be cancelled.

JSH
03-03-2009, 7:12 PM
The state proof of residency does not satisfy the federal requirement for proof of 90days continuous residency.

And i have talked to the ATF about this.



I remember that I called CA DOJ and ATF two years ago when I was purchasing my first pistol. I got the confirm that the DMV issued vehicle registration is acceptable as the proof of residence as well as utility bill. Any law/regulation change within two years? I saw the state proof of residency is more restrictive and explicit than federal level, why it does not satisfy the federal requirement?

dachan
03-03-2009, 7:13 PM
JSH,
You own the Stockade an apology. Federal law requires FFL's (Federal Firearms License(es)) to collect 90days proof of residency when completing a 4473 from non-citizens.

JSH
03-03-2009, 7:37 PM
JSH,
You own the Stockade an apology. Federal law requires FFL's (Federal Firearms License(es)) to collect 90days proof of residency when completing a 4473.

Reason?

In the first post, I already mentioned I gave them my car registration at the beginning as the proof of residency, which, is acceptable at both state and federal level by other dealers I bought guns from.

I am not here to bash a dealer, I share my experience of how I got treated over there. I might have some misunderstanding of the process, but I did not deserve the attitude by the three different sales person with three difference answers without giving me explanation. If you got treated like that, I believe you would give them your apology, right?

walter
03-03-2009, 7:48 PM
what you experienced what not ignorance or dumbassness, but good old fashion racism/discrimination. welcome to america!

dachan
03-03-2009, 7:55 PM
You owe an apology because Stockade was mostly right and you are mostly wrong.

The subject of firearms sales to aliens was covered in a recent newsletter to FFL holders:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/1108fflnewsletter.pdf

It explains in most cases, a non-immigrant alien is prohibited from purchasing a firearm. As your immigration attorney can probably explain, until you receive your Alien Registration Card ("green card")) you are considered a non-immigrant alien.

Furthermore, the ATF does not accept car registration as documented evidence that the purchaser has resided in a State for 90 continuous days immediately prior to the date of the sale. It is possible that you were able to use your car registration in the past, but that was because those dealers made an error in accepting that documentation. Because of those errors, the ATF sent out clarified instructions in the forementioned newsletter.

As a followup to the newsletter, the newsletter FAQs on the ATF website was updated to clarify it is necessary to provide at least one utility bill per month to verify residence for the past 90days.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/fflnewsltrfaqindex.htm

The issue with car registration is that it doesn't prove residence over the 90 continuous days immediately prior to the date of the sale.

BTW, the proof of residency requirements for aliens on the 4473 are a result of the many security changes made after 9/11.

Trader Jack
03-03-2009, 8:12 PM
This is just one of the examples ATF gives. The car registration may also be another example of proof of residency which ATF did not mention but DOJ clarifies.

Anyway, did you know any dealer other than Stockade asks gun buyers providing 3 consecutive months of utility bills when picking up the gun after 10 days waiting period(DROS already finished).

You need 3 months of consecutive bills or bank statements to satisfy the ATF. You are forgetting the Ca. DOJ and the ATF are two separate requirements.
The dealer was wrong if they did not make you show the three months and those three months must be within 90 on one end or the other.:chris:

Trader Jack
03-03-2009, 8:13 PM
Thank you, fellows:)! Thanks for all FFL dealers support legal immigrants' gun right.

I feel that we, calgunners, should give support to new legal immigrants, because most of them came from "gun ban" countries or districts, and are educated with the fear of firearms. If no one make them firearm friendly, they will for sure join the gun ban family and vote for the favor of "gun control" lately when they become citizens.

Would your country support the American gun rights???:chris:

Josh
03-03-2009, 8:40 PM
I remember that I called CA DOJ and ATF two years ago when I was purchasing my first pistol. I got the confirm that the DMV issued vehicle registration is acceptable as the proof of residence as well as utility bill. Any law/regulation change within two years? I saw the state proof of residency is more restrictive and explicit than federal level, why it does not satisfy the federal requirement?

As you have experienced, just because a dealer does it does not mean its legal or right. The stockade says you cant buy a gun because you are here on a visa, but we all know thats not correct either

The ATF also changes their definition of various things on a regular basis.

As others have said, vehicle registration does not establish 90 previous days of residency as it is done on a yearly basis.

It must show specifically that you have been at a residence for the past 90 days.

The state requirement for proof of residenchy is more restrictive on what qualifies as proof but not as to a time frame.

Also I know a few people that are like you here on either a visa or green card and buy firearms. They all present their dealers with the documentation establishing 3months of residency.

dachan
03-03-2009, 9:04 PM
Just realized you stated you are still under a H1B visa but in possesion of a hunting permit, in which case you are considered a non-immigrant alien, normally prohibited by Federal law from purchasing a firearm, but exempted because you possess a hunting permit. Still car registration does not fulfill the Federal residency documentation requirements.

bear308
03-03-2009, 9:41 PM
what you experienced what not ignorance or dumbassness, but good old fashion racism/discrimination. welcome to america!

Really?

When we sold guns we made people in the ops situation provide 3 months worth. I remember doing it to a guy from Scotland. Looked a lot like me and was from the same country most of my ancestors came from. I must be one of those self-hating Scots you here so much about.

walter
03-03-2009, 11:37 PM
yea that's possible
i know alot of
mexican-americans who dislike mexicans
african-americans who dislike africans
asian-americans who dislike asians
WHITE-American who dislike WHITE-british
and so on and so forth

sometimes its skin color... sometimes its country of origin.. etc


Really?

When we sold guns we made people in the ops situation provide 3 months worth. I remember doing it to a guy from Scotland. Looked a lot like me and was from the same country most of my ancestors came from. I must be one of those self-hating Scots you here so much about.

battleship
03-04-2009, 12:11 AM
I have the green card and are still required to show 3 months of continuos utility bills to do the PPT or any new gun purchase. My car registration will not do alone. Thats my experience.

C_1
03-04-2009, 8:28 AM
Its funny how some gun shops dont really know the law really, but bad mouth other shops about how they are doing illegal things.. Ignorant.. But its their shop and they are just covering their *****es. Best thing you can do is avoid them and take your business somewhere else.

STAGE 2
03-04-2009, 11:09 AM
The stockade is a crappy store whether they were correct on the law or not. I used to shop there on a semi-regular basis despite their ridiculous prices. I brought someone in to do a PPT for a pistol that didn't have a magazine with it and one of the clerks (balding guy, dark hair, dark gotee) summarily started chewing out the person I was selling (with gratuitous use of the F bomb) to for the consequences he would face if he didn't bring in a proper magazine to do the handling demonstration with. It was one of the few times in life that I was literally stunned at the sheer rudeness.

I apologized to the guy for how he was treated and have since gone in several times to take up as much of their time as possible with stupid questions and havent purchased a thing.

Mac Bolan
03-04-2009, 11:32 AM
Sorry if you were treated wrong but from where I see it I would rather error on the side of to much info to the Feds than not enuogh and stand a chance of loseing my licence. just a thought ..................... Mac

bear308
03-04-2009, 11:53 AM
yea that's possible
i know alot of
mexican-americans who dislike mexicans
african-americans who dislike africans
asian-americans who dislike asians
WHITE-American who dislike WHITE-british
and so on and so forth

sometimes its skin color... sometimes its country of origin.. etc

Some more basis, I go to highland games, own a kilt. Have been saving to go to Scotland for some time. Yet I must have done that to the poor Scot because of racism/discrimination. It'd be like a guy wearing a Mecha(sp?) shirt and denying to DROS a gun to a Mexican.

bwiese
03-04-2009, 11:59 AM
I've been hearing good things about OC Armory all the way up here in SF Bay Area.

maxima
03-04-2009, 12:27 PM
The 4473 is Federal and the Instructions attached to every 4473 give examples of what are "Acceptable documentaion to prove 90-day continuous residency" for legal aliens. Specifically:

utility bills, current bank statements, rent receipts, mortgage payments, lease agreements, personal property tax bills, documents issued by Federal, State, or local government agencies, first-class mail issued by government agency, insurance policies, or bill with current address or major credit card bill.

These examples are broad and varied. The most common proof is 90-days worth of utility bills. It has been on the 4473 for years so many dealers are more comfotable with it. Although not mentioned specifically, a dealer may infer that a vehicle registration at least 90 days old could be used per the bolded example above.

Well explained. JSH is right.

halifax
03-04-2009, 1:52 PM
Well explained. JSH is right.

...a dealer may infer that a vehicle registration at least 90 days old could be used...

I used the terms may and could purposely. The dealer might decide that the instructions are vague and vehicle registration does NOT satisfy the 90-day residency requirement for aliens but would still work for POR for citizens.

The dealer is the one that has to deal with the ATF field agent during inspections, not the customer.

walter
03-04-2009, 2:35 PM
bottom line is, law or not the guy was a ***** and that shop does not deserve any calguns business, furthermore

used to shop there on a semi-regular basis despite their ridiculous prices. we need to stop doing this, lol

JSH
03-14-2009, 8:58 PM
In order to clarify the question that whether “vehicle registration is the acceptable document to prove 90-day continuous residency for non-resident aliens at federal (ATF) level (Form 4473)”, I called ATF Santa Ana field office again last week, since the last time I contact ATF was two years ago and got the “yes” answer, there could be changes for the law.

A very nice ATF field female agent named Helen answered the phone. She told me, according to the instruction of form 4473, vehicle registration is acceptable at Federal level for proving 90-days continuous residency for non-resident aliens. She also said that she would double check with their(ATF) headquarter to confirm it and call me back.

Yesterday afternoon, Helen called me back that she got the response from their headquarter attorney with the confirmation: “vehicle registration is acceptable to prove 90-days continuous residency for non-resident aliens at Federal (ATF) level, because vehicle registration is the proof for one year of continuous residency which for sure covers 90 days continuous residency. If the dealer does not feel comfortable to accept it, tell him to contact us(ATF).”

scotthmt
03-14-2009, 9:08 PM
yeah, some shops just dont know jack ****. I once tried to do a ppt on a pistol, me being the buyer of the pistol and my two forms of ID were my CA DL and CA ID card, the shop wanted my registration aswell, so since im young he wouldn't listen to me about the fact that i have 2 forms of government issued id its a green light and insisted that I need my car registration. So i had to make the seller wait 20 minutes while i went hom eand got my car motorcycle registration. I think there should be mole type secret shopped that go into gun shops and make sure theyre educated on the laws that they should ALREADY know

ke6guj
03-14-2009, 9:49 PM
yeah, some shops just dont know jack ****. I once tried to do a ppt on a pistol, me being the buyer of the pistol and my two forms of ID were my CA DL and CA ID card, the shop wanted my registration aswell, so since im young he wouldn't listen to me about the fact that i have 2 forms of government issued id its a green light and insisted that I need my car registration. So i had to make the seller wait 20 minutes while i went hom eand got my car motorcycle registration. I think there should be mole type secret shopped that go into gun shops and make sure theyre educated on the laws that they should ALREADY knowWell, I beleive you were wrong in this case. Neither a CA DL or CA ID is an acceptable POR.

12071(b)(8)(C)
(C) Commencing January 1, 2003, no handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation indicating that he or she is a California resident. Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed, or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice. The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.


d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice" means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf

Trader Jack
03-15-2009, 8:18 PM
yeah, some shops just dont know jack ****. I once tried to do a ppt on a pistol, me being the buyer of the pistol and my two forms of ID were my CA DL and CA ID card, the shop wanted my registration aswell, so since im young he wouldn't listen to me about the fact that i have 2 forms of government issued id its a green light and insisted that I need my car registration. So i had to make the seller wait 20 minutes while i went hom eand got my car motorcycle registration. I think there should be mole type secret shopped that go into gun shops and make sure theyre educated on the laws that they should ALREADY know

It is you who should learn about the law before you post something you know nothing about.:chris:

Shane916
03-15-2009, 8:24 PM
In order to clarify the question that whether “vehicle registration is the acceptable document to prove 90-day continuous residency for non-resident aliens at federal (ATF) level (Form 4473)”, I called ATF Santa Ana field office again last week, since the last time I contact ATF was two years ago and got the “yes” answer, there could be changes for the law.

A very nice ATF field female agent named Helen answered the phone. She told me, according to the instruction of form 4473, vehicle registration is acceptable at Federal level for proving 90-days continuous residency for non-resident aliens. She also said that she would double check with their(ATF) headquarter to confirm it and call me back.

Yesterday afternoon, Helen called me back that she got the response from their headquarter attorney with the confirmation: “vehicle registration is acceptable to prove 90-days continuous residency for non-resident aliens at Federal (ATF) level, because vehicle registration is the proof for one year of continuous residency which for sure covers 90 days continuous residency. If the dealer does not feel comfortable to accept it, tell him to contact us(ATF).”

Intriguing.

So if someone moves here and obtains a drivers license a few days later and completes a vehicle registration a few days later. Then this document they have obtained signifies they have lived here for over 90 days when in fact this can be done in less then a month?!

gotgunz
03-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Well, I beleive you were wrong in this case. Neither a CA DL or CA ID is an acceptable POR.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf

It might be a matter of interpretation; while neither a CA DL OR CA ID is acceptable I would think that a CA DL AND a CA ID would be.

What do I know though? I don't even have an HSC card and I never show my utility bills or car registrations when picking up firearms from dros.






(CCW's are cool like that, LOL).