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View Full Version : CADOJ: "Notice of no longer in possession" form no longer used


Juno05
02-27-2009, 1:38 AM
Summary: The CADOJ's "notice of no longer in possession" form is no longer used by the agency, a field representative said on Feb. 27, 2009. The form was used too often by lying criminals, the rep. said, so the DOJ took the form off of its Web site.

I have a pistol that I bought legally in California. I am a California resident. I want to sell it to a friend in Washington state. I realize I need to go through a dealer to sell it to him, but does the sale have to START in California, or can I legally transport the weapon up there and sell it to him through a dealer in Washington?

From (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=147498) the (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=149350) threads (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=151464) I've searched, it seems that I have to start in California. But I'd prefer to be sure, and the DOJ's Web site doesn't get that in-depth about the issue in its FAQ.

Thanks for any help offered, Calgunners.

Mssr. Eleganté
02-27-2009, 5:34 AM
Nothing in Federal or California law prevents you from taking the handgun up there yourself and handing it to the transfer FFL. You should check Washington State law, but I doubt there is anything to worry about there.

Juno05
02-27-2009, 8:12 AM
Ah, cool. So I can just head up there and do it that way. Perfect! When I get back to California, however, do I need to fill out any other forms to tell them the gun's not mine?

TRICKSTER
02-27-2009, 8:32 AM
Ah, cool. So I can just head up there and do it that way. Perfect! When I get back to California, however, do I need to fill out any other forms to tell them the gun's not mine?
I remember reading somewhere that CA. DOJ has a form for out of state sales that you can send in, stating that you no longer have the firearm and to take it out of your name, but I cant find the info on that at this time.

Juno05
02-27-2009, 9:36 AM
I saw that on one of the threads I was looking for. I can call the CADOJ and ask them for a copy of the form, or where to get one. That's easy. Thanks all.

fairfaxjim
02-27-2009, 9:56 AM
For some reason the DOJ took it off of their Forms page. It is still available at:http://www.mendocino.courts.ca.gov/forms/FirearmFD4036.pdf
Don't ask me why the Mendocino Courts have it on line.

Juno05
02-27-2009, 10:00 AM
Sweet. Mendocino comes through in the clutch. Thanks all!

Juno05
02-27-2009, 12:01 PM
To double-check, I called a friend in Washington with an FFL. He says I don't need to go through an FFL if I am physically present with the gun and I'm just selling it to the friend in a private-party transfer. I wouldn't be violating federal law by doing that, he says, and no transfer paperwork would be required.

I'm so confused. It feels like I could just file the paperwork down here so the CADOJ takes my name off the gun and then be done with it. I keep a copy of my friend's driver's license and his concealed weapons permit just to cover me, and then I'm done.

I think I need to call the CADOJ anyway.

Juno05
02-27-2009, 3:10 PM
This gets more and more awesome.

The form (http://www.mendocino.courts.ca.gov/forms/FirearmFD4036.pdf) recommended above, that can't be found on the CADOJ's Web site? CADOJ field representative Mike Kelly said that form is no longer used by the CADOJ.

"We've had people lie to us," he said. "Criminals will say they don't have the gun anymore, but they do, so we've stopped using it."

So much for that route.

However, Kelly said that California doesn't care whether I use a Washington FFL to sell my pistol to my friend. There's no state law that says I can't sell a pistol up there. It will, however, remain in my name in California until I sell it to someone in California (such as an FFL). So even if I use a Washington FFL to transfer it, California still thinks the gun is mine.

The BATFE agent, a man by the name of Betzler, had to quote U.S. law to me. He reaffirmed what's been said before —*I can't do a direct, FTF sale of the pistol, as that would be interstate commerce and violation of the Gun Control Act. I have to use a Washington FFL to do the transfer paperwork.

ke6guj
02-27-2009, 3:21 PM
To double-check, I called a friend in Washington with an FFL. He says I don't need to go through an FFL if I am physically present with the gun and I'm just selling it to the friend in a private-party transfer. I wouldn't be violating federal law by doing that, he says, and no transfer paperwork would be required. and that would be incorrect. That is a violation of federal law.

OK, I see that BATF did set you straight that you need to use a WA FFL to facilitate the transfer. But, see, even FFLs don't know all the laws, and their advice could make you a felon if you took them at their word and did not confirm the info yourself.


(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

domokun
02-27-2009, 3:25 PM
Does this mean once a pistol sold in CA is DROS and then sold outside of CA and never re-enters the state, it's forever registered in your name? I'm specifically thinking about in states where FTF PPTs between to residents of the state are legal. There must be a mechanism to unregister the name or stop the legal liability of owning it once it's been sold to another party out of state.

Is this another effort to get CA gun owners to stop buying handguns if they don't want to be forever registered to the handgun once it's sold out of state?

TRICKSTER
02-27-2009, 3:31 PM
Typical DOJ move. Criminals lie on the form, so now, honest people can't use it anymore.
Criminals lie when they purchase guns, so does that mean we no longer need to fill out any forms to purchase them?

jasilva
02-27-2009, 3:33 PM
It really doesn't matter whether DOJ keeps it in their records. If you follow the Federal law and use an FFL for the transfer and keep the paperwork showing the transfer your covered legally.

Juno05
02-27-2009, 3:42 PM
It really doesn't matter whether DOJ keeps it in their records. If you follow the Federal law and use an FFL for the transfer and keep the paperwork showing the transfer your covered legally.

That's my understanding, too. And you can bet I'll have a notarized copy of my friend's driver's license, his CWP and the receipt of sale, just to be triple-sure.

The CADOJ field rep. said that legal liability wouldn't necessarily fall to the last listed owner. You'd be a step in the chain though -- have your paperwork handy if you get a call so you can show them the gun's not yours anymore, that you sold it to Dude X of State Y, and that you went through an FFL, so it isn't your problem anymore.

But yes, in essence, the gun remains in the name of the last in-state owner, unless that state participates in California's firearms registry.

fairfaxjim
02-27-2009, 3:48 PM
This gets more and more awesome.

The form (http://www.mendocino.courts.ca.gov/forms/FirearmFD4036.pdf) recommended above, that can't be found on the CADOJ's Web site? CADOJ field representative Mike Kelly said that form is no longer used by the CADOJ.

"We've had people lie to us," he said. "Criminals will say they don't have the gun anymore, but they do, so we've stopped using it."

Using that logic, CA DMV should stop issuing Driver's licenses - illegal aliens lie to get them, and even make phony ones.

Those guys at DOJ are about the biggest crate of lemons I have ever heard of. Criminal lie about EVERYTHING, that's what criminals do, and why they become criminals. I will bet you that the genius that made that decision had needed a law degree to get his job too. Un F'ing believeable!

And so let's see, the legislators and local politicos keep wanting to pass laws that you are a criminal yourself if you don't report a gun stolen - whether you knew it was stolen or not, but the DOJ BOF WON'T LET YOU TELL THEM YOU DON'T FREAKING OWN ONE ANYMORE!! The inmates are certainly in charge of the asylum!

grywlfbg
02-27-2009, 4:01 PM
The tin-foil hat folks here are worried that the jack-booted-thugs will show up on their doorstep with a list of all the guns they own and demand that they be turned over.

"It says here you own 5 handguns."

"I sold 3 of them to people out of state."

"We don't believe you."

Waterboarding commences.

:TFH:

marklbucla
02-27-2009, 4:06 PM
I guess this explains why I haven't heard back from them in the past month over a Walther I just sold out here FTF.

I guess that P22 is going to be forever in my name.

domokun
02-27-2009, 4:10 PM
The tin-foil hat folks here are worried that the jack-booted-thugs will show up on their doorstep with a list of all the guns they own and demand that they be turned over.

"It says here you own 5 handguns."

"I sold 3 of them to people out of state."

"We don't believe you."

Waterboarding commences.

:TFH:

Heh...It's more about keeping accurate records. Having accurate records helps reduce the amount of time BOF/ATF agents spend chasing after details needed to complete a trace. Letting us law abiding citizens update our own records helps them keep the records up to date and clean. It also is one step towards a pointed need to have all guns registered in a centralized database when they are sold by anyone on a national basis to help ease the tracking of firearms sold. However, it wouldn't serve its true intended purpose due to the fact that criminals by definition don't obey the law! :rolleyes:

fairfaxjim
02-27-2009, 4:22 PM
Heh...It's more about keeping accurate records. Having accurate records helps reduce the amount of time BOF/ATF agents spend chasing after details needed to complete a trace. Letting us law abiding citizens update our own records helps them keep the records up to date and clean. It also is one step towards a pointed need to have all guns registered in a centralized database when they are sold by anyone on a national basis to help ease the tracking of firearms sold. However, it wouldn't serve its true intended purpose due to the fact that criminals by definition don't obey the law! :rolleyes:

Trying to control criminals by criminalizing and restricting law abiding citizens will never accomplish the desired result. Ask Canada how that national registry is working for them.

big50_1
02-27-2009, 5:09 PM
Interesting thread-I sent a S&W pistol to the manufacturer for servicing. They found the frame cracked and offered me a gun in exchange. So, as I understand this thread, CADOJ records has me owning two guns, the old (assuming S&W destroys the frame; in any case, I don't have the frame.) and the new instead of only the new!

I know that you can get a list from CADOJ of all the guns under your name but having sold a number over the years over GunBroker and Auction Arms, I wonder what the point would be to get a copy of what guns CA says I have since there isn't a form to record not having them? Does that make sense (what I said)?

Juno05
02-27-2009, 5:23 PM
S&W could have informed the CADOJ that your old weapon was destroyed. Guess you'd have to ask both.

I with you, though. I might as well just buy another pistol in California if it will always be in my name in this state, despite my moving to another someday.

rayra
02-27-2009, 5:31 PM
The tin-foil hat folks here are worried that the jack-booted-thugs will show up on their doorstep with a list of all the guns they own and demand that they be turned over.

"It says here you own 5 handguns."

"I sold 3 of them to people out of state."

"We don't believe you."

Waterboarding commences.

:TFH:

Thanks for admitting you don't know much history.

-

As for myself, I'm not concerned about DOJ's foolishness. I keep proper records of my own, about where my weapons move on to if and when they do. If I need to demonstrate that I'm no longer the legal owner, I can readily do so.

And truly, there isn't much point in worrying about being permanently registered, because that evil is already done and undoable, regardless of a NLIP filing. All that will do is add an entry in a database. The history that you owned the gun, that YOU are a gun owner, will remain on file forever.

SteveH
01-13-2010, 10:32 PM
The tin-foil hat folks here are worried that the jack-booted-thugs will show up on their doorstep with a list of all the guns they own and demand that they be turned over.

"It says here you own 5 handguns."

"I sold 3 of them to people out of state."

"We don't believe you."

Waterboarding commences.

:TFH:

Could become an issue during a divorse.

tenpercentfirearms
01-14-2010, 6:00 AM
A poor spelling necroposter! The worst. ;)

However, this thread is relevant to the other thread talking about using the no longer in possession form. So I am glad you like the dead.

NiteQwill
01-14-2010, 6:57 AM
How do people find these posts?

Fate
01-14-2010, 7:40 AM
How do people find these posts?

:xeno:

ke6guj
01-14-2010, 12:24 PM
For those just now seeing this thread for the first time, be aware that it is no longer current. since the OP was posted, CADOJ has put a new NLIP form on the website. If they weren't accepting the NLIP anymore, why would they make a new form and still host it?

bruss01
01-14-2010, 1:24 PM
For those just now seeing this thread for the first time, be aware that it is no longer current. since the OP was posted, CADOJ has put a new NLIP form on the website. If they weren't accepting the NLIP anymore, why would they make a new form and still host it?

Link please?

dantodd
01-14-2010, 1:32 PM
Link please?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/BOF4546NLIP0209.pdf

ke6guj
01-14-2010, 1:33 PM
Link please?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/BOF4546NLIP0209.pdf

note the 02/09 revision date of the form. This form was being updated right around the time that this thread was started.

zinfull
01-14-2010, 3:09 PM
Yeah it is a big difference. NOW they want to know who you sold you gun to.

jerry

AlliedArmory
03-11-2010, 2:15 PM
was snooping around and found this. How many of you guys fill out this form when you sell a gun?

ke6guj
03-11-2010, 2:19 PM
well, since I've never sold a handgun, or other firearm that was registered to me in AFS, never.

but I were to sell one, I'd send one in.

paul0660
03-11-2010, 2:24 PM
I use them when I give guns to my kids, and they fill out this: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf
And darn right THEY pay the $19.

rkt88edmo
03-11-2010, 2:42 PM
Does the new one incorporate an affidavit to do away with those lying scoundrels? Was the "we aren't using the form anymore" just DOJ FUD?

ke6guj
03-11-2010, 2:49 PM
here is the old form, http://www.mendocino.courts.ca.gov/forms/FirearmFD4036.pdf and here is the new form, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/BOF4546NLIP0209.pdf , that was being revised around the same time they said that "we aren't using the form anymore". Note that the new form required more info from the filer stating the disposition of the firearm.