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View Full Version : Is it a secret or am I just ignorant?


Charlie50
02-23-2009, 7:49 AM
Many of us have seen several pistols including various Vector Arms pistols, AR pistols, etc. recently available at some pretty high prices (translation: I'm cheap). I assume it was a private party who sold the “defanged” pistol to an FFL licensee who can then re-sell it here in the “Golden State” to the public - but I know I'm missing something. In short, how do they do it? I travel a fair amount, have many friends and relatives in gun friendly states. What is preventing the rest of us from going through the various hoops to obtain what we want at half the cost? I apologize in advance for the boring question as I am sure this subject has been covered somewhere in CALGUNS but I am not seeing a clear answer my question.
I would like to legally build my own a CA legal .233 AR and I like some of the Vector arms products. Some guys have made their AR pistols from 80% lowers and then making them “single action”. I see some exceptions listed in the California Firearms Laws including the following:
Requirement of Handgun Safety, Functionality and Testing Requirements
Exceptions:
“Private party transfers of handguns occurring through a firearms dealer. (Penal Code 121125). Is this one of the exceptions that is allowing the importation of these pistols? Thanks in Advance, This website has got to be the best for us stuck here in the “Golden State”.
:confused

DDT
02-23-2009, 8:04 AM
Importation cannot be done via PPT.

I don't know about Vector arms but most off roster pistols currently on the CA market were either owned before the roster went into effect, or came via Personal importation or LEO purchase.

Personal Importation happens when a CA resident legally owns a firearm in another state (either through dual residency or having owned it before moving to CA) the roster doesn't apply to personally imported guns so that is one way to get them in.

LEO exception. There is also an exception to the roster for police officers. Many police officers are gun collectors and since they are not limited by the "safe handgun roster" many of the firearms they sell are not rostered.

These must be transferred as a PPT. If they are mailed to an FFL for a sale they would have to be sold to a roster exempt entity. In other words, if you want an off roster firearm and you can't import it as a personal importer you must do a face to face PPT.

As you figured out in your post many AR style pistols are either built here and registered under the single-shot exemption or imported in single-shot configuration.

Most non-roster handguns have a very limited distribution and thus garner a higher price here in CA.

The good news is that it is quite likely that the roster will not stop you from owning any handgun you like in the near future. There is a move afoot to find a legal path to import handguns that are not on the roster. This model (like OLL for AR-style rifles) is called NeRF for Non-Rostered Firearms. There appears to be a final hurdle that those working on the project are dealing with. Wait time seems to be the interminable "2 weeks." Here is a VERY LONG thread you can read to catch up on NeRF: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=136084&highlight=roster+nullified

hawk1
02-23-2009, 8:07 AM
I think you'd understand a bit better if you searched it on your own.
First understand the difference between a PPT and a dealer sale. Then do a search on single shot exemptions.

Charlie50
02-23-2009, 8:44 AM
Thanks DDT and hawk1 for the info. It is a bit confusing to a newbie on this subject. I will do some more homework and hopefully have some better questions shortly... 2500 for a vector arms (uzi config.) just kills me. I go back to the days I could buy them for less than $300 at Traders. I had no interest in most stamped meta "black guns" then, snobbery is sometimes painfully expensive.

383green
02-23-2009, 8:49 AM
I go back to the days I could buy them for less than $300 at Traders. I had no interest in most stamped meta "black guns" then, snobbery is sometimes painfully expensive.

I had no interest in .50BMG until the ban was announced. Boy, that hurt my wallet! :(

I feel your pain.

Anyway, welcome to Calguns. You're certainly in the best place to learn this stuff!

CSACANNONEER
02-23-2009, 9:19 AM
I had no interest in .50BMG until the ban was announced. Boy, that hurt my wallet! :(

I feel your pain.

Anyway, welcome to Calguns. You're certainly in the best place to learn this stuff!

Try driving thousands of miles each year just to get to a few FCSA matches on top of all the other 50 related expenses! It sure makes paying thousands for a small caliber handgun to plink with seem like a bargin!

AJAX22
02-23-2009, 3:09 PM
Typically the inflated prices reflect increased legal exposure for the FFL, machine work/modification which has to be done out of state, multiple shipping charges and a goodly portion goes to a legal 'war chest' or retainer for the buisness.

When an FFL is prepared to fight it out with the BOF over ANY infringement, it certainly makes the BOF think twice before they get publicly spanked and the prosecuters get a big black mark on their record.

You as a private individual are probably less prepared to stand up to the CA DOJ trying to push you around, whereas these FFL's went into it already prepared for a down and dirty fight.

Yes, stuff costs more in CA than it does elsewhere, but the simple fact that it is an OPTION is amazing and would not exist as such if it were not for these FFL's.

I suggest you pay the higher fees and consider it a donation to the fight. Most of these guys are pouring every cent back into the effort of bringing in more/nastier toys.

More things will not become available in the long run if they can't afford the cost to keep on fighting.

Meplat
02-23-2009, 7:37 PM
Excellent post. It deserves a sticky!:43:


Typically the inflated prices reflect increased legal exposure for the FFL, machine work/modification which has to be done out of state, multiple shipping charges and a goodly portion goes to a legal 'war chest' or retainer for the buisness.

When an FFL is prepared to fight it out with the BOF over ANY infringement, it certainly makes the BOF think twice before they get publicly spanked and the prosecuters get a big black mark on their record.

You as a private individual are probably less prepared to stand up to the CA DOJ trying to push you around, whereas these FFL's went into it already prepared for a down and dirty fight.

Yes, stuff costs more in CA than it does elsewhere, but the simple fact that it is an OPTION is amazing and would not exist as such if it were not for these FFL's.

I suggest you pay the higher fees and consider it a donation to the fight. Most of these guys are pouring every cent back into the effort of bringing in more/nastier toys.

More things will not become available in the long run if they can't afford the cost to keep on fighting.

truthseeker
02-23-2009, 8:14 PM
Typically the inflated prices reflect increased legal exposure for the FFL, machine work/modification which has to be done out of state, multiple shipping charges and a goodly portion goes to a legal 'war chest' or retainer for the buisness.

When an FFL is prepared to fight it out with the BOF over ANY infringement, it certainly makes the BOF think twice before they get publicly spanked and the prosecuters get a big black mark on their record.

You as a private individual are probably less prepared to stand up to the CA DOJ trying to push you around, whereas these FFL's went into it already prepared for a down and dirty fight.

Yes, stuff costs more in CA than it does elsewhere, but the simple fact that it is an OPTION is amazing and would not exist as such if it were not for these FFL's.

I suggest you pay the higher fees and consider it a donation to the fight. Most of these guys are pouring every cent back into the effort of bringing in more/nastier toys.

More things will not become available in the long run if they can't afford the cost to keep on fighting.

If I didn't know you were talking about firearms it would sound like you were talking about a BLACK MARKET!

And that is exactly what the Anti-gun crowd is trying to do. They are trying to change laws so that it will NOT be worth the effort to jump through all of their hoops (which they call regulations), to purchase a firearm.

I am elated that I found this website when I did, because without it I don't think there would be any other place to find out about the "regulations (infringements)" that the anti-gun crowd are constantly pushing.

Without this website, because of how many stupid regulations that CA has regarding firearms, I would have probably had to defend myself in court already since I was born and grew up in Florida before I came here in the military.

This website is a breath of fresh air for anyone in CA that likes to use firearms of any kind! And that is why I tell everyone that I speak with, that is interested in firearms, to join here and read up!

MAILMAN187
02-23-2009, 11:11 PM
Good stuff Ajax...
I wondered where I had heard that before....?

If I didn't know any better I'd say you and FEDUP were the the same guy. :)