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MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 7:14 PM
So I go into my local gun range the other night. I happened to notice a Siaga .223 on the wall for sale, and a GIANT flyer on the entrance door advertising "OLL's for sale" with "get them while you can" posted under the flyer...... hmmmmmm.

Well i get to talking with the staff about Siaga12's, which they don't touch and they don't sell them and they tell me "PRK sells them", and "they don't seem to think PRK arms is on the up and up". After some friendly conversation about what "PRK is doing" and what type of firearms they have been selling, I am informed by the range staff that, and I quote " PRK arms will be out of business in 6 months, and they will be raided by the ATF, and they are violating California's SPIRIT OF THE LAW." and finally, that,
"it is possible that the customers of PRK will ultimately be arrested and or charged by the ATF."

I kindly pointed out that the SPIRIT OF THE LAW is also being violated by them, and the selling of OLL'S...... Since they could ultimately be turned into assault weapons....

I also informed them that Saiga's could be considered a grey area.....as they are just off list ak-47's without pistol grips.....

And I told them that the DOJ has had no problem approving the MANY MANY MANY dros that PRK does on a weekly basis, with no problems what soever.....

And finally i asked "what does the ATF have to do with PRK selling California legal firearms in California (not to mention they are legal in ALL the other FREE states in the first place!)

The ATF? REALLY?

So......they told me it all comes down to the this "SPIRIT OF THE LAW" thing again.

I decided to call a truce, and go about my evening of blasting at paper targets.

So, I ask the members of calguns, what do you think?

Is there any truth to this nonsense, or are these guys just blowing smoke up my @ss?

Any input from my fellow calgunners would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

MAILMAN187/LOYAL PRK CUSTOMER

hoozaru
02-22-2009, 7:25 PM
you need a new range

Hopi
02-22-2009, 7:27 PM
So you mean a competing gun shop/range told you bad things about PRK?

I'm sure PRK has excellent representation, and I'm equally confident that they diligently follow CA law. They did not formulate a 6 month business plan culminating with jail time and 100K in legal fees.

Saigon1965
02-22-2009, 7:30 PM
Again - I don't have issues with dealers chosing not to sell the entire spectrum of OLLs - But to spread FUD - Down right wrong -

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 7:34 PM
So you mean a competing gun shop/range told you bad things about PRK?

I'm sure PRK has excellent representation, and I'm equally confident that they diligently follow CA law. They did not formulate a 6 month business plan culminating with jail time and 100K in legal fees.

oh.... i know all that! lol!
i just wanted to see what people had to say about this........

Don't you think they took it a little far? insinuating I may be arrested for buying a gun from PRK?

come on.....

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 7:38 PM
Again - I don't have issues with dealers chosing not to sell the entire spectrum of OLLs - But to spread FUD - Down right wrong -

I agree. it is their choice on what they are comfortable selling in their store.....
But to badmouth california firearms pioneers in the process? lol!

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 7:49 PM
gunstore = FUD and BS

I assumed that..... lmfao!

what is this "spirit of the law" nonsense?

how could that hold up in any ca court?

ohsmily
02-22-2009, 7:50 PM
You heard this information in a gun store from a gun store employee about a competing gun store? Damn, that is gospel. Watch out for the ATF, they will come kicking down your door in less than six months and PRK will be out of business. The ATF and DOJ are very spiritual and don't like when the spirit of the law is violated.

DB2
02-22-2009, 7:53 PM
Name of shop? Everything PRK does is within the law. They just happen to do EVERYTHING that is off list. These guy's just getting into the game are way behind, and butt hurt for the loss of money. There are no issues with PRK's representation either.

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 7:59 PM
Name of shop? Everything PRK does is within the law. They just happen to do EVERYTHING that is off list. These guy's just getting into the game are way behind, and butt hurt for the loss of money. There are no issues with PRK's representation either.

well i don't want to splash a bunch of "HatorAde" all over my local gunshops, but i will say it is the only one with an indoor range that i know of in my area.
i'll let you do the research on the exact city.....

Fjold
02-22-2009, 8:02 PM
Since the "exact city" is "the armpit of California" that narrows it down.


Why is it that so many people are afraid to name bad gunshops?

DB2
02-22-2009, 8:03 PM
I'm pretty sure I know what shop. I'm not an armpit native, but I work enough shows with PRK to figure it out.




well i don't want to splash a bunch of "HatorAde" all over my local gunshops, but i will say it is the only one with an indoor range that i know of in my area.
i'll let you do the research on the exact city.....

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 8:07 PM
Since the "exact city" is "the armpit of California" that narrows it down.


Why is it that so many people are afraid to name bad gunshops?

I live in the same city as prk.

good enough for you, sherlock?:D LMAO!

i just have a memebership at this range, and don't want the "stink eye" every time i want to "bust some caps":thumbsup:

spex
02-22-2009, 8:18 PM
Roger that mailman187 I know exactly of the shop you are referring to, that is why I purchased a Spikes ST-22 lower and will be doing the transfer at PRK, a much better price I might add.

Can'thavenuthingood
02-22-2009, 8:19 PM
Okay, without naming names, is this the range off Shaw behind COSTCO?

PRK folk are good to go, I seen'em in action:D

Vick

tonelar
02-22-2009, 8:43 PM
Why is it that so many people are afraid to name bad gunshops?

Cause they're gossiping over the backyard fence.

Also, wasn't this already covered in an earlier thread?

JeffM
02-22-2009, 8:47 PM
What else is new? :rofl2:

you should all swallow a handcuff key before the party- if y'all know what i'm saying.;)Dont worry there will be several badges there already, why not have a few more:D Oh yea we will also have an attorney or three there as well just to "keep it real". Oh and just in case, lots of video tape to document any policies/procedure violations. Its amazing who wants to come to high profile events, might get good face time. As AJAX said they would be barking up the wrong tree here 1000% legal. And they dont want it out there that what we are doing is perfectly legal. Thats what would be bad press that such a HUGE hole in thier gungrabbing was left open. Kind of like the border:confused:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=808272&postcount=189

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=808904&postcount=191

12voltguy
02-22-2009, 8:47 PM
Cause they're gossiping over the backyard fence.

Also, wasn't this already covered in an earlier thread?

that shop has no problem bad mouthing prk, maybe even "slander" & poster won't come out and name the shop..............why bother posting then at all:confused:

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 8:51 PM
Cause they're gossiping over the backyard fence.

Also, wasn't this already covered in an earlier thread?

sorry, i don't read EVERY THREAD EVER POSTED.

like i said before, i have a membership at this range. so don't bite my head off for asking a question.

it's not about cajones. it's about one gunshop putting out false info to try and scare customers away from another gunshop......
with really bad info....

it's apparent that that they are full of SH*t, and i thank my fellow calgunners for proving that.

That is what a forum is for...

JeffM
02-22-2009, 8:51 PM
that shop has no problem bad mouthing prk, maybe even "slander" & poster won't come out and name the shop..............why bother posting then at all:confused:

All the local people know what shop it is.

It's a small community here.

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 8:54 PM
All the local people know what shop it is.

It's a small community here.

Thank you!

man, people are snippy on this forum. wtf?

hoffmang
02-22-2009, 8:56 PM
I don't think anyone on Calguns needs to worry about PRK Firearms... Well, maybe those of you on a budget need to worry that you shouldn't look 'cause they will make you want to spend money...

-Gene

CSACANNONEER
02-22-2009, 9:02 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why the ATF would shut them down? Although, it could be argued that PRK has violated California ghosts, I mean the spirit of some California law, why would the ATF&E care? Ca. DOJ BOF might but that's not what the moron told you, right? He is so out of touch with reality that he's even unaware that ATF is now ATF&E so, I guess he could think that federal agencies gave a rat's *** about state laws.

MAILMAN187
02-22-2009, 9:38 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why the ATF would shut them down? Although, it could be argued that PRK has violated California ghosts, I mean the spirit of some California law, why would the ATF&E care? Ca. DOJ BOF might but that's not what the moron told you, right? He is so out of touch with reality that he's even unaware that ATF is now ATF&E so, I guess he could think that federal agencies gave a rat's *** about state laws.

That's an exellent point.....
Why the Atf(and e)?
Thant just makes no sense at all.
I even said "you mean the doj" and he said "No, the ATF".
This isn't the first shop to say this kind of stuff to me either.....
It's just the first time it irratated me I guess, so I posted a thread.

Thank you to those who have came to my defense.....

Smokeybehr
02-22-2009, 9:47 PM
Okay, without naming names, is this the range off Shaw behind COSTCO?

PRK folk are good to go, I seen'em in action:D

Vick

I wouldn't buy a single thing from the place that won't be named. Everything there was full retail, or more.

Now I know where to go for my goodies.

bwiese
02-22-2009, 9:52 PM
PRKArms is a righteous Leadership FFL and has the full protection of the law.

PRKArms has no problems.

One of the advantages of being an FFL in California (over being a regular prole like the rest of us Calgunners) is that the DOJ BoF has some regulatory responsibility to, and legal responsbilities regarding you, since the FFL is their agent.

DJMAN
02-22-2009, 10:37 PM
I wouldn't buy a single thing from the place that won't be named. Everything there was full retail, or more.

Now I know where to go for my goodies.

Its "The Range" 5151 N Gates.

Those guys need alot of help with firearm knowledge.

WIF

ke6guj
02-22-2009, 10:56 PM
That's an exellent point.....
Why the Atf(and e)?
Thant just makes no sense at all.
I even said "you mean the doj" and he said "No, the ATF".
This isn't the first shop to say this kind of stuff to me either.....
It's just the first time it irratated me I guess, so I posted a thread.

Thank you to those who have came to my defense.....
Its not just them. I had a shop, barely two weeks ago, say that the ATF is investigating the entire bullet button phenominum and everyone if gonna get arrested. He also said that he knew a guy that put a youth stock on an otherwise stock 870 and the ATF was ****ing him over because it was 1/8" under the legal limit of 30" because it was an illegal NFA item in CA. Could not explain that there was no 30" limit in CA or federal law for shotguns, and that it was 26". Now the fact that a PG-only 870 is already over 26" and a youth stock has to be at least 4" longer than that, I don't even think it would come close to 30".

Would not explain why ATF was enforcing CA law, and not CADOJ.

tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2009, 6:11 AM
Just remember, just because FFLs can DROS something in no way makes it CA legal. I could be DROSing AWs to my heart's desire and until they come into my shop for an inspection, I wouldn't know I was doing anything wrong.

So PRK is not legit because they are DROSing firearms. They are legit because they know how to read and follow the law.

I think some of my competitors also made similar claims about me and I am still going. Also sometimes though I think customers are full of it and like to start drama. I just ignore it all and try to have a good working relationship with the other shops around. There is plenty of business out there.

Sunwolf
02-23-2009, 6:51 AM
I swear ,gunners are their own worst enemies.Got a local shop within 3 blocks that won`t do oll`s,so I drive 100 miles to a shop that will.I don`t pitch a hissy fit because the local shop won`t conform to my desires I just drive.

FEDUPWBS
02-23-2009, 8:01 AM
that shop has no problem bad mouthing prk, maybe even "slander" & poster won't come out and name the shop..............why bother posting then at all:confused:


Slander sounds more like it. BUT it only adds to the taboo aspect of what we do. Probably drives people to us to see why the ATF&E is going to throw us in the slammer :thumbsup::TFH::eek:

Pvt. Cowboy
02-23-2009, 8:31 AM
So......they told me it all comes down to the this "SPIRIT OF THE LAW" thing again.

'Spirit Of The Law'? What the hell is that? It's certainly not a legal term. Sounds like a phrase used by desperate junior district attorneys who are losing their first case in court.

truthseeker
02-23-2009, 8:41 AM
"Spirit of the Law" has been discussed before. If there is NO law against any action, then it is NOT illegal. Kind of like pregnacy, either you are or you are not pregnant, there is no middle ground.

Now, whether a LEO/DA can arrest/prosecute you is another story. That is why everyone has their day in court.

DDT
02-23-2009, 9:16 AM
I thought the show was called "Spirit of the Wild"

CSACANNONEER
02-23-2009, 9:26 AM
Would not explain why ATF was enforcing CA law, and not CADOJ.

It could be because the DOJ refuses to do their job and give their interpretation of the law in the first place. But, that's just an off the wall guess.

ke6guj
02-23-2009, 10:47 AM
It could be because the DOJ refuses to do their job and give their interpretation of the law in the first place. But, that's just an off the wall guess.Could be, but I just felt like he was talking out his *** making **** up. Trying to explain that ATF was "f***ing someone up" for having an illegal NFA item in CA because he had an 870 under 30", which isn't even illegal, or an NFA item either(said it had an 18+" barrel, was NFA because it was under 30" OAL :confused:).

leelaw
02-23-2009, 11:16 AM
I got to the "they are violating the spirit of the law" and laughed.

"Spirit of the law" refers to discretion to NOT arrest/charge with a violation of the letter of the law, due to circumstances. IE: no homicide charges for self defense; no burglary charges for a starving 12 year-old stealing bread from a supermarket, etc.

Pretty much the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law can be summarized like this: if you are following the letter, then you can not be charged for violating the spirit. If you are violating the letter, you may or may not be charged, depending on interpretation of the spirit. If you're not breaking a written law with a stated punishment, you can't be charged. They're just.. stupid.

Beelzy
02-23-2009, 12:58 PM
That Spirit of the Law was really that Spirit of the Smoke being blown up your
arse. :p

Yeah the "Range" is always a good place for up to the minute facts. Too
bad they are 3yrs. behind on the OLLs. LOL!!!

The ONLY thing good about that place is you can shoot an AR with frangible
ammo there. That's it.

Cypren
02-23-2009, 2:21 PM
Is anyone else tickled by the fact that everyone is dogpiling on hearsay picked up at local gun stores and shooting ranges as inaccurate and laughable while relying on hearsay picked up on an Internet forum as the truth? Not that I'm impugning the general quality of the information here on Calguns, but really, how many posters have actually read the laws, court decisions and other material on which all of the advice here is based, rather than just repeating what they heard from someone else? That's all these guys at local places are doing.

Hopi
02-23-2009, 2:29 PM
Not that I'm impugning the general quality of the information here on Calguns, but really, how many posters have actually read the laws, court decisions and other material on which all of the advice here is based, rather than just repeating what they heard from someone else? That's all these guys at local places are doing.

You haven't been here very long. The proper legal citations and case law excerpts are always presented and available on Calguns when applicable. This community welcomes dissent and challenges to our interpretations, that's what makes us so strong.

The other gun store does not have the luxury of 'feigning ignorance', they know what they're doing when they slander PRK. Their intentions are clearly an effort to compensate for their lack of cojones.

ke6guj
02-23-2009, 2:35 PM
You haven't been here very long. The proper legal citations and case law excerpts are always presented and available on Calguns when applicable. This community welcomes dissent and challenges to our interpretations, that's what makes us so strong. exactly. Many times when a question is asked, the answer is given with supporting PC to back it up. We don't expect you to take our word for it. We want you to understand the law for yourself, and know why it is legal or not.

AJAX22
02-23-2009, 2:55 PM
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!

too funny,

The last time I heard about the 'spirit of the law' was when my mom was scolding me for hitting my brother with a stuffed animal (I wasn't hitting him, Meep Meep was)

YOURE ALL GOING TO JAIL!!!!!!!!! :D

just like wes, CWS, ammo bros, etc. etc. etc.

legal is like pregnant, you is or you ain't

Cypren
02-23-2009, 3:17 PM
You haven't been here very long. The proper legal citations and case law excerpts are always presented and available on Calguns when applicable. This community welcomes dissent and challenges to our interpretations, that's what makes us so strong.

I agree, there are some extremely knowledgeable posters here and I do enjoy the fact that specifics are often brought out. But there's also a lot of advice/commentary posted on this subforum which is not cited and is often just repeated hearsay from another contributor or "conventional wisdom" accumulated from reading the forum for a while. Even here, one must sort the wheat from the chaff.

My comments weren't meant as a shot at the Calguns community; I was just pointing out the irony of many posters dismissing all local stores as spreading ignorant gossip while accepting information here at face value.

deleted by PC police
02-23-2009, 3:52 PM
I agree, there are some extremely knowledgeable posters here and I do enjoy the fact that specifics are often brought out. But there's also a lot of advice/commentary posted on this subforum which is not cited and is often just repeated hearsay from another contributor or "conventional wisdom" accumulated from reading the forum for a while. Even here, one must sort the wheat from the chaff.

My comments weren't meant as a shot at the Calguns community; I was just pointing out the irony of many posters dismissing all local stores as spreading ignorant gossip while accepting information here at face value.

Stick around for a while, you will be as frustrated as the rest of the posters with regards to ffl's that don't know the law.

CSACANNONEER
02-23-2009, 4:06 PM
I agree, there are some extremely knowledgeable posters here and I do enjoy the fact that specifics are often brought out. But there's also a lot of advice/commentary posted on this subforum which is not cited and is often just repeated hearsay from another contributor or "conventional wisdom" accumulated from reading the forum for a while. Even here, one must sort the wheat from the chaff.

My comments weren't meant as a shot at the Calguns community; I was just pointing out the irony of many posters dismissing all local stores as spreading ignorant gossip while accepting information here at face value.

I won't say ALL stores but, I've heard incorrect and often dangerous legal advise from at least 90% of the ones I've been in (including the one I worked at for 6 years). Most shop owners and employees do not read the laws, they go by what the DOJ and ATF tell them or what they feel is what the laws should read. Just last week, I had a shop owner/employee (I don't know or care) tell me that .50cal bullets were illegal in Ca. Mind you, I'm talking about commercial bullets, not even loaded ammo! When I questioned him, he said, "Well, 50 caliber rifles are illegal so you don't need the ammo." This, of course is pure BS. If that gentleman had ever read this forum, he would have known that 50 cal rifles are not and have never been illegal in this state, let alone .510 dia. AMAX bullets. Members of this forum constantly cite PC and link directly to the source. No gun shop I've ever been in will actually cite their source for their misguided opinions and they will get made if you even dare question them. So, who are you going to believe?

leelaw
02-23-2009, 4:16 PM
Is anyone else tickled by the fact that everyone is dogpiling on hearsay picked up at local gun stores and shooting ranges as inaccurate and laughable while relying on hearsay picked up on an Internet forum as the truth? Not that I'm impugning the general quality of the information here on Calguns, but really, how many posters have actually read the laws, court decisions and other material on which all of the advice here is based, rather than just repeating what they heard from someone else? That's all these guys at local places are doing.

What part are you having an issue with, specifically?

MAILMAN187
02-23-2009, 4:44 PM
The ONLY thing good about that place is you can shoot an AR with frangible
ammo there. That's it.

not any more my friend......
i asked to shoot my ar and they said no more "frangible ammo allowed"
something about it not working and punching holes in the traps????
this was in early feb. when i was told this.

MAILMAN187
02-23-2009, 4:53 PM
I can hear it already......

"Um sir, we are revoking your range membership, please exit the building."

LMAO!

Can'thavenuthingood
02-23-2009, 5:08 PM
not any more my friend......
i asked to shoot my ar and they said no more "frangible ammo allowed"
something about it not working and punching holes in the traps????
this was in early feb. when i was told this.

Frangible was poking holes in the traps?

Vick

JeffM
02-23-2009, 5:21 PM
Frangible was poking holes in the traps?

Vick

Sounds like some igit was using FMJ, etc. and saying it was frangible. Sometimes it only takes one bad apple.

Can'thavenuthingood
02-23-2009, 5:29 PM
Yeah, I was gonna get some of that frangible stuff if its tearing up the indoor range traps.

Vick

thedrickel
02-23-2009, 5:37 PM
Problem is they're gougin mofo's and I can't afford none of their ****!

domokun
02-23-2009, 6:07 PM
Problem is they're gougin mofo's and I can't afford none of their ****!

:rofl:

PRKArms
02-23-2009, 9:03 PM
Dangerous bunch of guys over there at PRK... I hear they like to choke puppies and molest sea anemones while reciting the communist manifesto...

Experimentalist
02-23-2009, 9:57 PM
Dangerous bunch of guys over there at PRK... I hear they like to choke puppies and molest sea anemones while reciting the communist manifesto...

Now that is the product of a degenerate mind.

Leave the sea anemones alone.

MAILMAN187
02-23-2009, 10:35 PM
Problem is they're gougin mofo's and I can't afford none of their ****!

Didn't even read the thread, did you?
To busy eating "cup'o'noodles" and drinking that diet orange shasta.
What a dirtbag...
Lmao!!!!!!!!

DB2
02-23-2009, 10:44 PM
Didn't even read the thread, did you?
To busy eating "cup'o'noodles" and drinking that diet orange shasta.
What a dirtbag...
Lmao!!!!!!!!

Easy now, don't make Drickle "go postal" on you.:p

Knight
02-23-2009, 10:49 PM
It was brought up in another thread recently that many FFLs are showing a bitterness over losing their position as the most knowledgeable people in the firearms community. Stories like this lend credence to that theory.

It seems like the less they know, the louder they are shouting it.

MAILMAN187
02-23-2009, 10:52 PM
Easy now, don't make Drickle "go postal" on you.:p

So funny.:sleeping:


Don't worry. He knows what I'm talking about.:)
As for you? Well your #1,000,010.:thumbsup:

AJAX22
02-24-2009, 10:59 AM
Now that is the product of a degenerate mind.

Leave the sea anemones alone.

+ a billion


*edit*

Oh, and YOU'RE ALL GOING TO JAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DDT
02-24-2009, 1:17 PM
Dangerous bunch of guys over there at PRK... I hear they like to choke puppies and molest sea anemones while reciting the communist manifesto...

I have an aquarium full of sea anemones. I can work a trade for an AR-10 if you'd like. How about 20 anemones for 1 rifle. Seems like a good deal to me. I think they even like Jesus juice so they should be easy pickin's

MAILMAN187
02-24-2009, 5:43 PM
Oh, and YOU'RE ALL GOING TO JAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See you there......

I call top bunk!

M. Sage
02-24-2009, 6:59 PM
"Spirit of the Law" has been discussed before. If there is NO law against any action, then it is NOT illegal. Kind of like pregnacy, either you are or you are not pregnant, there is no middle ground.

That runs counter to the spirit of pregnancy. :D :p

Isn't it illegal to say things like this about a competitor? I know it's unethical.

MAILMAN187
02-24-2009, 8:53 PM
Isn't it illegal to say things like this about a competitor? I know it's unethical.

I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble....
It just really bothered me, and I wanted some opinions.
I bet they have new targets made up to shoot at already for sale......
Instead of a guy with a knife behind a dumpster, they'll have
A Mailman sitting at a computer!!!!
Just watch. :eek:

Trench Broom
02-24-2009, 9:49 PM
:popcorn: