PDA

View Full Version : Odds the Saiga-12 will be listed as a "destructive device?"


pfl101
02-21-2009, 6:53 AM
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm concerned that this will come to pass given the "large" magazine (10 rounds in CA; drums in other states). I know the Benelli auto-loader hasn't been listed but would the ability to accept larger quantitites make this gun more prone to listing?

FEDUPWBS
02-21-2009, 6:55 AM
Dupe.

pfl101
02-21-2009, 7:29 AM
A quick search of the terms "Saiga 12 destructive" yielded no answer to this specific question.

I want to hear from people who were around when the Streetsweeper was listed by the BATFE as a destructive device. Perhaps they have information regarding the process leading to that decision that would be of use regarding the Saiga-12.

motorhead
02-21-2009, 8:36 AM
for dd fans, a member has 3 streetsweepers up for sale on the ak files.

ke6guj
02-21-2009, 10:18 AM
here's two threads that I found right away, one from 3 weeks ago.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150731
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=128705

CCWFacts
02-21-2009, 10:30 AM
I can't tell you how likely or unlikely it is, but...

Under fed. law, anything with a bore > 0.5" is a DD. That includes all 12 ga shotguns of course. However, the Treasury can make a determination that some gun is particularly suitable for sporting use, and, traditionally, all shotguns except a very very few (Street Sweeper or whatever) have been found to be suitable for "sporting use", even guns like "cruiser" shotguns that obviously have no sporting use.

However, if they do declare Saigas to be DDs, in some ways, that's a Win for us.

Stormfeather
02-21-2009, 10:53 AM
for dd fans, a member has 3 streetsweepers up for sale on the ak files.

Doesn't do us any good here in California.

bohoki
02-21-2009, 1:34 PM
the rub is that as imported they are approved sporting arms and are modified here all the ones declared dd are so as they came in or were as built

so i highly doubt they can specify ones with pistolgrips and 10 round mags are dd and ones with the "saiga" stock and 5 round are not

i'm thinking now what if someone made an ar-10 upper that used 20 ga

could they declare using one makes your lower a dd?

oops odds i give are 100:1 against

CSACANNONEER
02-21-2009, 1:54 PM
i'm thinking now what if someone made an ar-10 upper that used 20 ga

could they declare using one makes your lower a dd?

How about a 50BMG upper? It would be the same thing.

CCWFacts
02-21-2009, 1:57 PM
How about a 50BMG upper? It would be the same thing.

It would not be the same thing. 50 BMG is not a DD because the bore diameter is not over 0.5" (using the way they define bore diameter), whereas 12 ga is over 0.5". 12 ga is a DD "by default", but traditionally all ordinary shotguns have been found to have "sporting use". The only ones that I know of that have been excluded from sporting use have been "Street Sweeper" types with revolving cylinders. Even "cruiser" shotguns (18" barrel, pistol grip), which are obviously not usable in any sports, have non-DD status only by virtue of being found suitable for sporting use.

That finding could, in theory, change pretty easily.

nicki
02-21-2009, 6:56 PM
This carry over from the "Klinton Administration" needs to be dealt with.

With the Heller decision, perhaps a owner of a streetsweeper would be willing to challenge the executive order as a violation of the 2nd amendment.

The streetsweeper was reclassified as a "destructive device" because it was suited for police or military purposes rather than sporting purposes.

Here is the rub, the government position is that the streetsweeper should be classified as a "destructive device" because it meets the definition of a "militia arm" as defined by the Miller decision.

Heller didn't overturn Miller, what it did was overturn the activist Fed judege concept that the 2nd amendment is a "collective right".

If this is not dealt with guys, this is a toe in the door that could lead to a ban on most if not all semi and pump action shotguns.

One could argue that "Sportsmen" are limited to 3 rounds already. Limiting 12 guage shotguns to only single shot, over under or side by side would still allow hunters to hunt.

Semi and pump can easily be converted into destructive devices so deadly that they are banned by the Geneva Convention for modern warfare.

Just my 2 cents.

Nicki

pfl101
02-21-2009, 7:14 PM
Nicki, et.al., thanks for the thoughtful responses. I appreciate it, as a newb who's trying to catch up and get in the game ASAP.

At any rate, I have one on the way and can't wait to show up at my local range, where shotguns are allowed. The look on their faces will be priceless when the Saiga pops out of the case...

cousinkix1953
02-22-2009, 1:57 AM
This carry over from the "Klinton Administration" needs to be dealt with.

With the Heller decision, perhaps a owner of a streetsweeper would be willing to challenge the executive order as a violation of the 2nd amendment.

The streetsweeper was reclassified as a "destructive device" because it was suited for police or military purposes rather than sporting purposes.

Here is the rub, the government position is that the streetsweeper should be classified as a "destructive device" because it meets the definition of a "militia arm" as defined by the Miller decision.

Heller didn't overturn Miller, what it did was overturn the activist Fed judege concept that the 2nd amendment is a "collective right".

If this is not dealt with guys, this is a toe in the door that could lead to a ban on most if not all semi and pump action shotguns.

One could argue that "Sportsmen" are limited to 3 rounds already. Limiting 12 guage shotguns to only single shot, over under or side by side would still allow hunters to hunt.

Semi and pump can easily be converted into destructive devices so deadly that they are banned by the Geneva Convention for modern warfare.

Just my 2 cents.

Nicki
The Miller case was about chopping off the barrel and buttstock of a shotgun. The result is a concealed gangster's weapon that is useless for hunting, trap shooting or much any kind of recognized sporting use.

There have been propsed assault weapons bans that include semi-automatic shotguns like the Remington model 1100 before. John Kerry was all for banning them until he got his own free bee at that miner's union BBQ in West Virginia.

I can think of several so-called sporting weapons that are heavily used by the police and military units. Do we ban them now; because the SWAT teams and army snipers are shooting people, with that same bolt Remington model 700 also owned by thousands of hunters?

tygerpaw
02-22-2009, 6:51 AM
I can think of several so-called sporting weapons that are heavily used by the police and military units. Do we ban them now; because the SWAT teams and army snipers are shooting people, with that same bolt Remington model 700 also owned by thousands of hunters?

Remember when the DC snipers were running around, before they found them and the Bushmaster AR rifle? The Dems in Congress were saying that we must ban "sniper" weapons because they are too accurate, that to be able to shoot someone from 200 to 300 yards is just so dangerous, that no one should be able to have that kind of weapon.... Well, that was with a Republican controlled congress and president. Just as quickly as they spent almost a trillion dollars, they can ban your Remington 700 because it is "too accurate".

Welcome to the Obamanation!

hawk81
02-22-2009, 7:20 AM
They can only ban our weapons if we lay back and allow them to. People we are going to have to put up a real fight.

CSACANNONEER
02-22-2009, 7:32 AM
It would not be the same thing. 50 BMG is not a DD because the bore diameter is not over 0.5" (using the way they define bore diameter), whereas 12 ga is over 0.5". 12 ga is a DD "by default", but traditionally all ordinary shotguns have been found to have "sporting use". The only ones that I know of that have been excluded from sporting use have been "Street Sweeper" types with revolving cylinders. Even "cruiser" shotguns (18" barrel, pistol grip), which are obviously not usable in any sports, have non-DD status only by virtue of being found suitable for sporting use.

That finding could, in theory, change pretty easily.

There has been a lot more speculation about making 50BMGs DDs than making AR10 lowers DDs. Also, I am talking about having to register a lower as a DD. Please note the post I qouted and was responding to.

cousinkix1953
02-22-2009, 7:39 PM
Remember when the DC snipers were running around, before they found them and the Bushmaster AR rifle? The Dems in Congress were saying that we must ban "sniper" weapons because they are too accurate, that to be able to shoot someone from 200 to 300 yards is just so dangerous, that no one should be able to have that kind of weapon.... Well, that was with a Republican controlled congress and president. Just as quickly as they spent almost a trillion dollars, they can ban your Remington 700 because it is "too accurate".

Welcome to the Obamanation!
Sure do. One idiot reporter found a Russian 5.45x39mm empty casing on the street. So he assumed the shooters were probably packing a Russian AK-74 assault rifle. ROPFLMAO. Not likely.

The antis are not satisfied banning so called assault rifles. They will not stop with Saturday night specials. Of course anything with a scope on it is a sniper's rifle in their book too.

I know of one hypocrite in Santa Cruz area. One day he asks how much his Daddy's old Nazi ASTRA 400 is worth. The next is where can he get some 9mm Largo ammo for it. If you catch this pothead on a bad day; then he demands that everybody else turn in their handguns. He doesn't lead us to the next San Francisco buy back program; because 50 bucks (no questions asked) isn't enough for a drug user's cheap Spanish made pistol...