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View Full Version : Guardsmen to conduct urban training at Arcadia in April


FrankoUSA
02-20-2009, 10:08 AM
http://www.carrollspaper.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=7451&TM=55111.9 :eek:

TRICKSTER
02-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Something about this doesn't sound right.

dfletcher
02-20-2009, 10:17 AM
Something about this doesn't sound right.

As in a little pre "post ban" training perhaps?

DDT
02-20-2009, 10:19 AM
If they're looking for a weapons dealer couldn't they just look in the yellow pages?

Foulball
02-20-2009, 10:20 AM
Hmmm, Urban searching of volunteers homes? Who in the hell would volunteer for that?

Decoligny
02-20-2009, 10:21 AM
"Where are you hiding the Jews....I mean the Guns?"

The SS getting the sheep conditioned by using "voluntary" searches. This way they won't be so quick to get upset when they become mandatory searches.

nick
02-20-2009, 10:26 AM
Trust the media to never ask useful questions. Such as what the purpose of this exercise was.

bulgron
02-20-2009, 10:31 AM
Wouldn't this violate the Posse Comitatus Act, if they ever did it for real?

BTW, exercise or no, if armed men come knocking on my door asking me if they can please search my house, I'm not just saying 'no' I'm saying "HELL NO!"

Cypren
02-20-2009, 10:33 AM
This sounds to me like a training exercise designed to simulate situations that our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan encounter all the time -- an urban cordon with house to house searches. Replace "weapons dealer" with "bomb maker" and you'll have the right idea. It sounds like the scenario has just been adapted to something that would be a little more plausible in an American town since they don't happen to have a convenient Afghan town within driving distance.

Of all of the organizations within the government, the military is the last one I'm worried about going house to house and stomping on our rights; culturally, there's too much respect for the Constitution and the firm policy that "we do not deploy against American civilians." Unless a drastic shift occurs within military culture (which will take decades to accomplish), I don't think it's especially likely that we'll see troops turned against us.

If we see jackbooted thugs hunting gun owners, it's probably going to be federal law enforcement, since culturally, they've already been trained to see American civilians as "the enemy."

FrankoUSA
02-20-2009, 10:38 AM
Wouldn't this violate the Posse Comitatus Act, if they ever did it for real?

BTW, exercise or no, if armed men come knocking on my door asking me if they can please search my house, I'm not just saying 'no' I'm saying "HELL NO!"


Read This:

http://www.northcom.mil/About/history_education/posse.html

TRICKSTER
02-20-2009, 10:39 AM
Why "arms dealer"? What country are they training for? Urban training looking for insurgents or terrorist I can sort of understand, but why use "arms dealer"?
Why would it take a entire Guard Unit to search for one arms dealer?

haodoken
02-20-2009, 10:41 AM
Seriously you guys are reading too much into this. :TFH: People volunteered to participate. Search for weapons...hmmm sounds like Iraq/Afghanistan based training here in US but to give troops a little interaction with real people. Saves money and give citizens a chance to see what the Nat'l Guardsmen are doing to prep for overseas duty. Most training is geared for Iraq/Afghanistan based training. Weapons Dealers/Insurgents are common place over there. Anyhow training not in CA anyways it's in IOWA. There are less liberal states who actually LIKE their military folks and don't mind seeing them run around and do training.

My $0.02

bulgron
02-20-2009, 10:42 AM
If we see jackbooted thugs hunting gun owners, it's probably going to be federal law enforcement, since culturally, they've already been trained to see American civilians as "the enemy."

If you take a 19 year old kid, put him through boot camp, and you then stick him in the middle of Iowa and tell him to go conduct a door to door search of civilian homes for "arms dealers", do you really think he's going to argue the finer points of federal law?

I suppose we can rest our hopes on the officers who would be ordering that young soldier to conduct the search. But I've noticed that politicians are adept at moving officers out of the way until they find one that will do their bidding.

I mean, it isn't like the US Army has never been involved in iffy activities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) on US soil before.

That said, I agree that the bigger danger likely rests with our rapidly militarizing civilian law enforcement agencies. And it isn't just about the feds either. My brother was a legal observer during the protests of the Republican National Convention last year in St. Paul and he has some real disturbing stories to tell about the tactics and equipment used by the St. Paul police in their efforts to control the protesters.

dasmi
02-20-2009, 10:43 AM
I've got no problem with military folks. But they aren't supposed to be used to search Americans homes, and that's what this training smells like.

haodoken
02-20-2009, 10:47 AM
Why "arms dealer"? What country are they training for? Urban training looking for insurgents or terrorist I can sort of understand, but why use "arms dealer"?
Why would it take a entire Guard Unit to search for one arms dealer?

Overseas, there are many people who sell AKs, hence searches for "Arms Dealers"/Suppliers. We are over there to stop the spread of weapons to insurgents and armed militias. When I deployed searches for weapons was commonplace and often resulted in seized caches of arms that would have been used on us.

Cordon and Search is a large operation. First you need to surround the area so no one can flee with the guns. Then you need to search each house. Image several blocks, lots of real estate. You try to search many houses at once to use element of surprise and not give the insurgent time to flee/escape. Basic military tactics but you do need to practice to stay proficient.

haodoken
02-20-2009, 10:50 AM
I've got no problem with military folks. But they aren't supposed to be used to search Americans homes, and that's what this training smells like.

Wow, the paranoia is high here ain't it. Umm...people who volunteered to participate are being searched. No volunteer = No search.

Cheaper to use training area at home than to go to a specialized training area. Trust me the Nat'l Guard does not have deep pockets especially smaller states like IOWA.

bulgron
02-20-2009, 10:54 AM
Read This:

http://www.northcom.mil/About/history_education/posse.html

Well, from that link, I get the impression that the national guard can assist in law enforcement activities?

This does not give me the warm and fuzzies, although I note that our armed forces acted with restraint during the chaos in New Orleans post Katrina.

bulgron
02-20-2009, 10:57 AM
Wow, the paranoia is high here ain't it. Umm...people who volunteered to participate are being searched. No volunteer = No search.

Ummm.... This is a training exercise, which is okay insofar as it goes. The paranoia comes in when you worry about an army being trained to disarm a civilian population, which means that the army thinks that it might have to disarm a civilian population, notably OUR civilian population.

Never mind that they arguably have a good reason for it (due to Iraq and Afghanistan). Our forefathers repeatedly and forcefully warned us to be wary of standing armies, and so you have to expect us to look askance at stories like this.

Cypren
02-20-2009, 11:00 AM
I suppose we can rest our hopes on the officers who would be ordering that young soldier to conduct the search. But I've noticed that politicians are adept at moving officers out of the way until they find one that will do their bidding.

Yes, that's generally where my hopes lie. I don't think most of the low-level grunts will put up much of a fight on principle unless ordered to do something really atrocious, like fire on a peaceful demonstration (and by that I mean a real one, not the left-wing radical version where "peaceful" means "hasn't actually killed anyone yet, just destroyed half the town"). But I would expect a number of the NCOs to protest over lesser matters.

But as you say, politicians can move officers around until they find one willing to cross the line. I think the culture overall is such that they'd have a hard time ordering house to house searches at the moment, though. But give them a few decades of reshaping the academies, command staff and training procedures and putting authoritarian generals in command and they can certainly create a military just as vicious and oppressive as the Red Army. It's not that it can't happen here; I just don't think it can happen here on any large scale right now.

That said, I agree that the bigger danger likely rests with our rapidly militarizing civilian law enforcement agencies. And it isn't just about the feds either. My brother was a legal observer during the protests of the Republican National Convention last year in St. Paul and he has some real disturbing stories to tell about the tactics and equipment used by the St. Paul police in their efforts to control the protesters.

Yeah, this is what worries me most. SWAT teams are used for all kinds of routine warrant service now, and some police departments seem to be recruiting for their SWAT groups from the most aggressive candidates they can find -- kids who seem to want to play Rainbow Six for a living and are just looking for an excuse to shoot people without consequences.

I don't dispute the need for SWAT in major urban centers -- there really are some incidents (such as the North Hollywood shootout) that need a paramilitary response -- but the trend of using paramilitary operators as routine law enforcement is very dangerous, and the current push towards every small town in the country getting a SWAT team would be laughable if it weren't so scary. Military tactics are designed from the perspective that the opposition is not innocent and is fair game for violence, and that collateral damage is acceptable. That view has no place in any system of justice.

Doheny
02-20-2009, 11:00 AM
Seriously you guys are reading too much into this.

Yup, way too much. Take off the tinfoil hat and step away from the keyboard...

FrankoUSA
02-20-2009, 11:03 AM
Well, from that link, I get the impression that the national guard can assist in law enforcement activities?

This does not give me the warm and fuzzies, although I note that our armed forces acted with restraint during the chaos in New Orleans post Katrina.



maybe with the help of Canada :eek: you could get the warm and fuzzies



http://www.northcom.mil/News/2008/CAP%20-%20For%20Public%20Posting%20-%2028%20May%2008.pdf

TRICKSTER
02-20-2009, 11:14 AM
Seriously you guys are reading too much into this.

If this happened last year I would tend to agree with you, but given who we have as the current POTUS and AG, well lets say that I wouldn't rule anything out.

Shotgun Man
02-20-2009, 11:26 AM
Is this part of the change we've been hearing about?

Geodetic
02-20-2009, 11:38 AM
Just saw this on Drudge: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Executive-Order-Establishment-of-the-White-House-Office-of-Urban-Affairs/ :confused:

Repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment and reinstitution of the AWB are under "Urban Policy" on whitehouse.gov

TRICKSTER
02-20-2009, 11:43 AM
When you have a President who stated that "Assault weapons that have only one purpose, to kill people." and "I think it is a scandal that this president (Bush) did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban." a little tinfoil thinking is justified.

Desertfox
02-20-2009, 12:53 PM
If you take a 19 year old kid, put him through boot camp, and you then stick him in the middle of Iowa and tell him to go conduct a door to door search of civilian homes for "arms dealers", do you really think he's going to argue the finer points of federal law?

I suppose we can rest our hopes on the officers who would be ordering that young soldier to conduct the search. But I've noticed that politicians are adept at moving officers out of the way until they find one that will do their bidding.

I mean, it isn't like the US Army has never been involved in iffy activities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) on US soil before.

That said, I agree that the bigger danger likely rests with our rapidly militarizing civilian law enforcement agencies. And it isn't just about the feds either. My brother was a legal observer during the protests of the Republican National Convention last year in St. Paul and he has some real disturbing stories to tell about the tactics and equipment used by the St. Paul police in their efforts to control the protesters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaTiRM_0T24&eurl=

Meplat
02-20-2009, 1:13 PM
I would if I knew I was clean. Just to learn what they are up to. I don't think the average guardsman is the enemy, he is our friend, his orders on the other hand?????????

After 45 years of being a gun enthusiast, I'm not really sure I don't have something that Di Fi or Barbi Boxer consider evil. So, no thanks, no searches.




Hmmm, Urban searching of volunteers homes? Who in the hell would volunteer for that?

bubbagump
02-20-2009, 1:33 PM
This smells funny to me.

rrr70
02-20-2009, 1:35 PM
If you take a 19 year old kid, put him through boot camp, and you then stick him in the middle of Iowa and tell him to go conduct a door to door search of civilian homes for "arms dealers", do you really think he's going to argue the finer points of federal law?

I suppose we can rest our hopes on the officers who would be ordering that young soldier to conduct the search. But I've noticed that politicians are adept at moving officers out of the way until they find one that will do their bidding.

I mean, it isn't like the US Army has never been involved in iffy activities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) on US soil before.

That said, I agree that the bigger danger likely rests with our rapidly militarizing civilian law enforcement agencies. And it isn't just about the feds either. My brother was a legal observer during the protests of the Republican National Convention last year in St. Paul and he has some real disturbing stories to tell about the tactics and equipment used by the St. Paul police in their efforts to control the protesters.


What about Wako? Didn't they use Army resources?

ryno066
02-20-2009, 1:36 PM
This sounds to me like a training exercise designed to simulate situations that our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan encounter all the time -- an urban cordon with house to house searches. Replace "weapons dealer" with "bomb maker" and you'll have the right idea. It sounds like the scenario has just been adapted to something that would be a little more plausible in an American town since they don't happen to have a convenient Afghan town within driving distance.

Of all of the organizations within the government, the military is the last one I'm worried about going house to house and stomping on our rights; culturally, there's too much respect for the Constitution and the firm policy that "we do not deploy against American civilians." Unless a drastic shift occurs within military culture (which will take decades to accomplish), I don't think it's especially likely that we'll see troops turned against us.

If we see jackbooted thugs hunting gun owners, it's probably going to be federal law enforcement, since culturally, they've already been trained to see American civilians as "the enemy."

Not to foil hat it but.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

rrr70
02-20-2009, 1:44 PM
Not to foil hat it but.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

How log will it be until The Great One overturns the law prohibiting gun confiscation?

DDT
02-20-2009, 2:02 PM
Forever; he doesn't have the authority to overturn laws.

Meplat
02-20-2009, 2:29 PM
Waco............ They claimed a drug nexus (without evidence) to get the NG to lend them equipment. They borrowed a British military aircraft with FLIR for recon so they could avoid Posse Comitatus. The feds will lie cheat and steal without remorse to do whatever they want and no one ever calls them on it. I watched the congressional hearings on Waco, and Ruby Ridge both and our elected representatives would shake there heads and tisk-tisk and say too bad this happened. But it was medals, promotions and pats on the back all around for the perpetrators. :chris:

BTW, they also use British resources to spy on US citizens to avoid constitutional inconveniences.


What about Wako? Didn't they use Army resources?

our

Casual Observer
02-20-2009, 2:50 PM
What about Wako? Didn't they use Army resources?

As stated above, technically no.

The National Guard did lend some vehicles to the feds and (supposedly) there were some Delta Force guys there "advising", which isn't suprising since the FBI's HRT teams (which were at Waco) do train with Special Forces teams.

fairfaxjim
02-20-2009, 3:01 PM
Tinfoil too tight or not? It is interesting that a "suspected arms dealer" is the target of the exercise. Tends to paint a picture to the general public that having arms warrants the full court press of the US Army. Given the present administration, I can see how that might be a good message to send, if even indirectly. Will perpare the folks for the real deal. Why not look for drug dealers supporting insurgent groups? How about an Al Qaeda cell leader? Oh yeah, reminds too many people how they never got big Bin himself.