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diddler
02-18-2009, 10:31 PM
All,

Discussing sailing with a friend of mine over dinner, and the notion of guns came up. I believe I've read that you can pretty much carry a gun (concealed and loaded) as though you were in your home. Made me wonder, what about shooting the gun while you're out in the water.

S'pose we were out in the SF bay, shooting at driftwood or something. Can't imagine you'd fall under the jurisdiction of any of the surrounding cities, (though perhaps if you're within xxx yards of their shores?) but there must be Coast Guard rules.

Or you leave the bay, sailing out in the open ocean. At what point do you fall away from rules about discharging firearms just for giggles? All the way out to international waters?

The questions that keep me up at night..... Not really, I'm about 8 minutes from crashing.

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 10:42 PM
Get sufficiently far offshore and you're fine. SF Bay I wouldn't do, too likely to be within some city limits or incorporated area.

darksands
02-18-2009, 10:49 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Zonmar-en.svg/402px-Zonmar-en.svg.png

Ships sailing the high seas are generally under the jurisdiction of the flag state (but this is obsolete as of November 16, 1994), since due to cases of piracy and slave trade, any nation can exercise jurisdiction under the doctrine of hostis humani generis presuming they enter the nation's sovereign waters. Mare liberum still applies to this day as not all nations have ratified the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea Treaty, yet some nations still abide by the doctrine. Mare Liberum is the 'freedom of the sea,' where all jurisdictions are quashed in modern legal systems except those under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; this will be the case until all nations have signed and ratified the treaty. For these reasons international law is obfuscated.


From Wiki of International Waters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters

OldGunTard
02-18-2009, 11:27 PM
All,
...
S'pose we were out in the SF bay, shooting at driftwood or something. Can't imagine you'd fall under the jurisdiction of any of the surrounding cities, (though perhaps if you're within xxx yards of their shores?) but there must be Coast Guard rules.

Or you leave the bay, sailing out in the open ocean. At what point do you fall away from rules about discharging firearms just for giggles? All the way out to international waters?
...


The law aside, in terms of best practices, shooting at stuff on the bay would be a poor idea given the generally accepted concept of bullets skipping off the surface and continuing on to who knows where. In contrast, at sea, pointed offshore, it sounds like fun, if there's something to shoot at.

Oh, and for that Great White moving to overturn your boat, maybe you should have a twelve gauge slug gun.

rayra
02-18-2009, 11:31 PM
Don't worry about limits, instead worry about the fact that bullets can ricochet off of water as if off of concrete, and they'll travel a helluva long way, too. I would not shoot on a bay or similar enclosed body of water.
Shoot on water only if it is clear downrange all the way to the visual horizon. From a small boat that's 3-6mi, iirc.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
02-18-2009, 11:39 PM
A gun fired at 60 second intervals can be a distress signal. Hoffmang would be the one to ask about guns as they relate to boats, as he's somewhat of a boater when he gets the chance and is pretty up to speed on how the two areas of law merge. He's up to his eyes in the Jay LaSuer mess tho right this minute.

paintballergb
02-18-2009, 11:41 PM
I was always under the impression that you could shot from a boat as long as it was completely stopped.

hoffmang
02-18-2009, 11:49 PM
Due to duck hunting there are no specific restrictions on firing from a boat.

In the Bay, most all of the counties consider all of the county a no discharge area unless hunting. That puts shooting in a boat in the proper "Bay" likely against the county ordinances as you're technically still in one of the counties.

Inside the three mile limit you may be violating MARPOL which basically says you can't throw trash or other stuff in the water inside the 3 mile limit.

Past the three mile limit you can discharge but you need to be careful as a fired shot is also considered a distress signal under the rules of the road.

All this said, it's not uncommon for folks in the Delta to shoot from a boat into a levy but those are generally in county waters that are not barred from discharge like SF, Alameda, and San Mateo Counties.

-Gene

Mulay El Raisuli
02-19-2009, 6:55 AM
Ships sailing the high seas are generally under the jurisdiction of the flag state (but this is obsolete as of November 16, 1994)....


I just gotta ask, what happened on that date?

The Raisuli

P.S. to Rayra, Elmer Keith used to pop sharks with his trusty .44Mag. I was thinking that a stiff .45 Colt load (perhaps with .45ACP FMJ slugs) would do just as well.

CHS
02-19-2009, 8:21 AM
Here's a question...

At 3 miles out you're no longer within the state of California, right?

So can we rent a big boat, get all our OLL's on it, go out 3.5 miles, then take off our bullet buttons, prince 50's, and raddlocks and have an AW party? At that point we're in Fed waters, right? And there is no Fed AWB.

We can have a SoCal one and a Norcal one and we'll call it the "California Assault Weapons Party".

I'll even buy the pizza.

Doheny
02-19-2009, 8:39 AM
I just gotta ask, what happened on that date?


Dude, where you been???

On October 7, 1994, President Clinton transmitted to the Senate the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and the 1994 Agreement relating to the Implementation of Part XI of the United Nations Convention. The package was referred to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. On November 16, 1994, the U.N. Law of the Sea Convention entered into force but without accession by the United States. The 1994 Agreement entered into force on July 28, 1996, again without US ratification.

The United States had provisional membership in the International Seabed Authority (ISA) and its organs and bodies through November 16, 1998. The opportunity for provisional membership, providing time for adherence to the convention and agreement, ended on November 16. Since the Senate had not given its advice and consent to US adherence, the President could not bring those documents into force for the United States. Since November 16, 1998, the United States has observer status at the ISA.

(ok, maybe I found that somewhere...)

RobG
02-19-2009, 9:26 AM
Due to duck hunting there are no specific restrictions on firing from a boat.

Other than,

CA DF&G section: 507.5. Scull Boats.
Migratory game birds may not be taken by a scull boat or similar watercraft while under motorized power. The motor shall be removed from its mountings before any take or approach is attempted.

This section shall not prohibit shooting migratory game birds from scull boats or similar watercraft with motor attached if beached or anchored; nor shall it prohibit the use of a motor for the sole purpose of picking up dead or injured birds.

tincan715
02-19-2009, 10:00 AM
All,
S'pose we were out in the SF bay, shooting at driftwood or something. Can't imagine you'd fall under the jurisdiction of any of the surrounding cities, (though perhaps if you're within xxx yards of their shores?) but there must be Coast Guard rules.




Actually a good bit of San Francisco Bay is within the city limits of San Francisco. Part of Red Rock Island near the Richmond side of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge is actually in San Francisco. Back in the days of the oyster pirates San Francisco had the only effective law enforcement agency in the Bay Area so much of the bay was made part of the city.

hoffmang
02-19-2009, 11:46 AM
Other than,

[I]CA DF&G section: 507.5. Scull Boats.

Thanks for pointing that out!

-Gene

sierratangofoxtrotunion
02-19-2009, 1:10 PM
Actually a good bit of San Francisco Bay is within the city limits of San Francisco. Part of Red Rock Island near the Richmond side of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge is actually in San Francisco. Back in the days of the oyster pirates San Francisco had the only effective law enforcement agency in the Bay Area so much of the bay was made part of the city.

Interesting, I always wondered why on maps San Francisco County extends all over the place.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
02-19-2009, 1:12 PM
Due to duck hunting there are no specific restrictions on firing from a boat.

I truly was tired last night when I wrote my reply, I completely forgot about duck hunting!

AaronHorrocks
02-19-2009, 2:06 PM
Here's a question...

At 3 miles out you're no longer within the state of California, right?

So can we rent a big boat, get all our OLL's on it, go out 3.5 miles, then take off our bullet buttons, prince 50's, and raddlocks and have an AW party? At that point we're in Fed waters, right? And there is no Fed AWB.

We can have a SoCal one and a Norcal one and we'll call it the "California Assault Weapons Party".

I'll even buy the pizza.

You're not thinking big enough. Get a larger boat with a machineshop on it.
Go out into "international waters" where you then manufacture on-site loads of F/A receivers and nessisary parts. Have yourself one heck of a weekend shooting. Then cut the receivers in half, dump them over the deck and head home. :D

DDT
02-19-2009, 2:39 PM
and 2 tankers for the tannerite.

fusionstar
02-19-2009, 2:55 PM
man.. time to get a boat.

TenSeven
02-19-2009, 3:08 PM
So can we rent a big boat, get all our OLL's on it, go out 3.5 miles, then take off our bullet buttons, prince 50's, and raddlocks and have an AW party?




Where do I sign up!?!?

sierratangofoxtrotunion
02-19-2009, 4:23 PM
3 miles out of the Golden Gate is pretty far out for a lot of vessels that don't actually require a crew. This nautical chart has gray lines for 3 miles and 12 miles.

http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18680.shtml

Also of note are marine sanctuaries, of which on that chart there are three: Cordell Bank, Gulf of the Farallones and Monterey Bay. To get outside of those you have to go WAY. WAY. OUT. (ETA: From the Golden Gate, it looks like you'd have to get at least 35-45 miles out before you're out of the sanctuaries)

I had a hunch that some activities aren't going to be allowed in those sanctuaries, so I looked it up: http://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/library/national/15cfr922a.pdf

"Depositing or discharging" of damn near anything except water or fish guts or the part of your lunch you didn't eat seems to be pretty much verboten. Shooting a gun at the empty ocean may fall under "discharging... material or other matter of any kind." I donno if this has ever been tested.

CHS
02-19-2009, 7:57 PM
Go out into "international waters" where you then manufacture on-site loads of F/A receivers and nessisary parts. Have yourself one heck of a weekend shooting. Then cut the receivers in half, dump them over the deck and head home. :D

I'm down :)

Satex
02-19-2009, 8:46 PM
Take into account that firing a firearm on a maritime vessel at sea is considered to be a distress signal.

CHS
02-19-2009, 9:39 PM
Take into account that firing a firearm on a maritime vessel at sea is considered to be a distress signal.

International waters = suppressors :)

diddler
02-19-2009, 9:49 PM
International waters = suppressors :)

Hey, I like the way this guy thinks! :cool:

AaronHorrocks
02-20-2009, 8:36 AM
Take into account that firing a firearm on a maritime vessel at sea is considered to be a distress signal.

The only distress I'll be in is due to not enough ammo! :thumbsup:

sierratangofoxtrotunion
02-20-2009, 9:34 AM
Take into account that firing a firearm on a maritime vessel at sea is considered to be a distress signal.

If you're doing mag dumps, everybody will figure out that you're either being raided by pirates or you're just shooting for the halibut and either way they won't come knocking. Firing once every 60 seconds will be recognized as a distress signal.

AaronHorrocks
02-20-2009, 9:41 AM
ARRRR! :chris:

TheBundo
02-20-2009, 10:11 AM
I used to have a boat that I kept at San Leandro, then later at Caliente Isle in the Delta. It was quite large, and slept 6, and was actually Yacht Certified, meaning it had different rules (no limit on the number of people on board, etc.) When parked in San Leandro, I went in both directions, and frankly, going south, I NEVER ran into another boat in the water. I went down into the Alviso area, and even went to the old ghost town of Drawbridge. Going north, you saw more boats, sometimes a huge number, like on New Years when 2000 came in, about 13 of us went and watched the fireworks from underneath them off The Embarcadero. We saw the whale down by the Dumbo Bridge 2 days before it was reported in the media. The Delta was a lot more fun in the end. When had one of those things to launch the clay and shot at them there. 1000 miles of waterway makes for a lot of fun spots. One of the best was Lost Isle. Party Central

CCWFacts
02-20-2009, 10:46 AM
You're not thinking big enough. Get a larger boat with a machineshop on it.
Go out into "international waters" where you then manufacture on-site loads of F/A receivers and nessisary parts. Have yourself one heck of a weekend shooting. Then cut the receivers in half, dump them over the deck and head home. :D

I'm pretty sure vessels are still under the laws of the country that is their flag (registration). So I would think that it's illegal to manufacture an MG (without the manuf. FFL) on any US-flagged vessel anywhere in the world.

I think the ship would need to be flagged with some other country that doesn't restrict it. Fortunately there are plenty of such countries but you would need to find one.

It will turn out to be an awfully expensive MG shoot. It's cheaper to go to Vegas and do the tourist MG thing.

Shotgun Man
02-20-2009, 11:44 AM
I used to wonder about this when I sailed my boat to Catalina. There would be times when not another boat was in sight. It is 26 miles from the closest point in CA to Catalina. So is there international water within the Catalina Channel?

AaronHorrocks
02-20-2009, 12:18 PM
I'm pretty sure vessels are still under the laws of the country that is their flag (registration). So I would think that it's illegal to manufacture an MG (without the manuf. FFL) on any US-flagged vessel anywhere in the world.

I think the ship would need to be flagged with some other country that doesn't restrict it. Fortunately there are plenty of such countries but you would need to find one.

It will turn out to be an awfully expensive MG shoot. It's cheaper to go to Vegas and do the tourist MG thing.

Then just fly this flag!
http://www.piratecorner.ca/images/Booty_Pirate_Flag.jpg
:chris:

Mulay El Raisuli
02-20-2009, 1:18 PM
Dude, where you been???

On October 7, 1994, President Clinton transmitted to the Senate the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea and the 1994 Agreement relating to the Implementation of Part XI of the United Nations Convention. The package was referred to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations. On November 16, 1994, the U.N. Law of the Sea Convention entered into force but without accession by the United States. The 1994 Agreement entered into force on July 28, 1996, again without US ratification.

The United States had provisional membership in the International Seabed Authority (ISA) and its organs and bodies through November 16, 1998. The opportunity for provisional membership, providing time for adherence to the convention and agreement, ended on November 16. Since the Senate had not given its advice and consent to US adherence, the President could not bring those documents into force for the United States. Since November 16, 1998, the United States has observer status at the ISA.

(ok, maybe I found that somewhere...)


Well, its not like this comes up a lot on a 2A forum. :-)
Still, you used the word "obfuscated" before & that do seem to fit the situation.

The Raisuli

shawnyteee
02-20-2009, 1:56 PM
Here's a question...

At 3 miles out you're no longer within the state of California, right?

So can we rent a big boat, get all our OLL's on it, go out 3.5 miles, then take off our bullet buttons, prince 50's, and raddlocks and have an AW party? At that point we're in Fed waters, right? And there is no Fed AWB.

We can have a SoCal one and a Norcal one and we'll call it the "California Assault Weapons Party".

I'll even buy the pizza.


Your little party sounds like something similar to Somalian pirate party I've been hearing about.

bombadillo
10-29-2010, 9:19 PM
So when is the party?? I want to go boating but not have that horrific accident that we have while boating frequently. Building suppressors, little machine shop, and doing some FA shooting with a suppressor may be kinda nice! :D I think somebody could start a really fun charter business doing this.

Carnivore
10-30-2010, 4:44 PM
Well that isn't how it really works. The 12 nm mark is the limit that a given country has control of other country's but not individuals. Meaning that at 12 nm (nautical miles) allows Mexican fedaralis to run their boats out but doesn't allow the coast guard to tell them what to do. You and I are still under the laws of any given country sometimes more then one when you are out in "international waters". I have a 23' boat and am out 50 miles or more and still have to have a California fishing license, and are subject to fish and game laws etc. You will be in trouble for doing several of the things mentioned here. Other wise there would be 100s of people having "accidents" out 12 miles never to return. Now the bullet button issue is separate and I would say it was legal (not being a lawyer) but be ready for a fight if the park rangers were to come out and "see" what you were doing.

In some cases like gambling aboard ships you can do it even if it is illegal on its own. There are certain limitations to legally do it. You can't just take a boat out and gamble on it and return but if it is going to be used on a international trip or will be over a certain period (2 days I believe) then it is legal. Then again that is if the ship is under a USA flag. When the ship is registered out of another country once it is off the dock they are held to the registered places laws.

Peter.Steele
10-30-2010, 5:03 PM
In some cases like gambling aboard ships you can do it even if it is illegal on its own. There are certain limitations to legally do it. You can't just take a boat out and gamble on it and return but if it is going to be used on a international trip or will be over a certain period (2 days I believe) then it is legal. Then again that is if the ship is under a USA flag. When the ship is registered out of another country once it is off the dock they are held to the registered places laws.


http://www.suncruzcasino.com/schedules/

US flag casino cruises. Trip lengths are just over 5 hours. That particular one sails from Myrtle Beach, SC. They have a similar thing - think it's even the same company - that sails out of Jacksonville, FL.

hoffmang
10-30-2010, 7:25 PM
Well that isn't how it really works.

You're mixing a whole lot of complex admiralty, state, federal, and international law together and also blurring the Exclusive Economic Zone issues.

F&G goes way out due to the EEZ. Criminal law doesn't go very far because county law is certainly stuck at the 3 mile range which is also where the MARPOL discharge rules stop/start. Sailing under a US flag means USN/USCG/US Customs can board you basically at will anywhere on the globe.

-Gene

luckystrike
10-30-2010, 7:33 PM
Here's a question...

At 3 miles out you're no longer within the state of California, right?

So can we rent a big boat, get all our OLL's on it, go out 3.5 miles, then take off our bullet buttons, prince 50's, and raddlocks and have an AW party? At that point we're in Fed waters, right? And there is no Fed AWB.

We can have a SoCal one and a Norcal one and we'll call it the "California Assault Weapons Party".

I'll even buy the pizza.

count me in!