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View Full Version : Question for open carry people.


Pronghorn
02-18-2009, 8:27 PM
What's the point behind carrying an unloaded weapon?

Not flaming, just curious.

DDT
02-18-2009, 8:29 PM
for many it is a political statement about being stripped of their right to carry a loaded weapon. Also, there is some protective value since you can carry ammunition or loaded mags.

Meplat
02-18-2009, 9:02 PM
It's better than no weqapon at all.

My grandfather told me when I was 5 years old: "Son, when a man needs a gun, he don't need an empty one." But, what can I say.



for many it is a political statement about being stripped of their right to carry a loaded weapon. Also, there is some protective value since you can carry ammunition or loaded mags.

Theseus
02-18-2009, 9:12 PM
For me it is the deterrent factor and the defense factor. I was not really trying to be an activist as such...it just seems that when you OC you automatically become an activist.

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 9:21 PM
If you need one, 5 seconds or less to load is a lot quicker than driving home, opening the safe, opening the ammo drawer...

LOW2000
02-18-2009, 9:28 PM
The "unloaded" in unloaded open carry only means you cant have the loaded magazine actually inserted in the weapon.

For people that compete, you know that a draw with a loaded weapon vs a draw and load from a mag carrier is only 1-2 seconds slower, if that.

Mstrty
02-18-2009, 9:53 PM
The "unloaded" in unloaded open carry only means you cant have the loaded magazine actually inserted in the weapon.

For people that compete, you know that a draw with a loaded weapon vs a draw and load from a mag carrier is only 1-2 seconds slower, if that.

+1 Yea what he said...:thumbsup:

LOW2000
02-18-2009, 9:59 PM
I need to make a vid some day and post on youtube of the time difference between a normal draw and a "UOC" draw.

Ironchef
02-18-2009, 10:01 PM
For me it is the deterrent factor and the defense factor. I was not really trying to be an activist as such...it just seems that when you OC you automatically become an activist.

Exactly. If you live in an area where you can listen to the local PD radio traffic, or otherwise learn of the daily goings on and you realize that there's not a safe place in the city free from roving surenos teens stabbing people at random, soccer mom's being 242'd and robbed as they walk into a Walmart..in broad daylight, etc., etc... then if have conditions like that, then you should probably want to UOC as you sneak around your community ready for crime to find you. I live in such a city and the things mentioned above all happened in the last couple weeks (surenos stabbed a 16 yo boy, then casually moved on to a park two blocks away and assaulted other park visitors..weekday afternoon, nice neighborhood, etc.).

If you must UOC...your primary reason should simply be self defense and deterrence. I can't think of very good secondary reasons that outweigh the risk of having to defend yourself in court..but then, in some cities, you can trust that cops will be cool (Antioch, I trust) and not beat you down and arrest you.

CitaDeL
02-18-2009, 11:28 PM
What's the point behind carrying an unloaded weapon?

Not flaming, just curious.

Ah- been asked and answered so many times. What's one more time?

1) Your weapon is significantly less effective locked in your safe at home.
2) Not everyone can get or wants a LTC concealed.
3) Its a political statement- "I am a gunowner and Im not a bad person."
4) Its a visiable deterent to crime. People put on their best behavior when they believe they could get shot.
5) Its a possible method of leverage to push authorities for shall issue LTC concealed.

MudCamper
02-18-2009, 11:30 PM
What's the point behind carrying an unloaded weapon?

Not flaming, just curious.

If you live in a county that does not issue CCWs, it's your only legal means available. Your choices are:

1 - unarmed
2 - sidearm with loaded mags handy

supersonic
02-19-2009, 10:53 AM
I live in a "shall never issue" city with a high violent crime/homicide rate, so I have 3 choices:

1. Don't carry at all because I'm "denied" the right to protect myself/others by politically-motivated L.E. brass; thereby leaving myself open to criminals w/ violent intent -at any given time or place - without the means to save my own/others' lives.

2. UOC: three seconds to locked 'n loaded. VERY high potential for lifesaving and/or threat deterrent.

3. Concealed Carry Loaded when going into a known danger zone anyway(esp. at night) . This one falls under the "better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six" way of thinking.

There is only ONE of those choices I simply don't make.;)

KWA-S
02-19-2009, 12:15 PM
Eh, I don't like UOC much, I'm paranoid that somebody will pull a gun on me or something of the sort and I won't have time to load, and the scum would relieve me of the weapon. Not to mention the proximity of local schools. Hopefully with Nordyke in 2 weeks, we'll get LOC.

I'd open carry to help desensitize sheeple to guns, if I was old enough to own a pistol and didn't live on campus.

supersonic
02-19-2009, 12:57 PM
Eh, I don't like UOC much, I'm paranoid that somebody will pull a gun on me or something of the sort and I won't have time to load, and the scum would relieve me of the weapon. Not to mention the proximity of local schools. Hopefully with Nordyke in 2 weeks, we'll get LOC.

I'd open carry to help desensitize sheeple to guns, if I was old enough to own a pistol and didn't live on campus.

So, what you're saying is: " I don't like OC because I'm afraid the bad guy will take away my gun. But I'll do it to "de-sensitize" people to it. But, I'm not old enough to own a handgun." ..................:shrug::banghead:

racer_X_123
02-19-2009, 1:01 PM
I live in Ventura County... we are a Shall issue county, but it takes like a year for the paperwork to go through... I am afraid of open carry because i dont want to get hassled by LEO that will arrest me for no reason... Is it safe to open carry, or is a gamble with the law...

Piper
02-19-2009, 1:05 PM
For me it is the deterrent factor and the defense factor. I was not really trying to be an activist as such...it just seems that when you OC you automatically become an activist.

Incorrect. When people try to take your rights away, you must become an activist.

MP301
02-19-2009, 1:29 PM
I live in Ventura County... we are a Shall issue county, but it takes like a year for the paperwork to go through... I am afraid of open carry because i dont want to get hassled by LEO that will arrest me for no reason... Is it safe to open carry, or is a gamble with the law...

Its a gamble... not because its illegal, but because it can still get you arrested and be expensive to defend....and you may not get your gun back....and an arrest, even if it does not result in a conviction..or even an arrest after your "checked out" by LE's, can result in you NOT getting your CCW permit due to LE's idea of "bad judgement"...

So, that said, I really take off my hat to those that have the stones to OC in CA, because the risk is great.

And unless and until a larger number of folks start doing it, the possibility of it becoming a big enough issue to push toward shall issue on CCW permits is very limited...

racer_X_123
02-19-2009, 1:37 PM
yeah, it is not worth the risk, time, money or gun. I guess i will wait until we can do it without hassel... or just move to a free state..

Decoligny
02-19-2009, 1:39 PM
Its a gamble... not because its illegal, but because it can still get you arrested and be expensive to defend....and you may not get your gun back....and an arrest, even if it does not result in a conviction..or even an arrest after your "checked out" by LE's, can result in you NOT getting your CCW permit due to LE's idea of "bad judgement"...

So, that said, I really take off my hat to those that have the stones to OC in CA, because the risk is great.

And unless and until a larger number of folks start doing it, the possibility of it becoming a big enough issue to push toward shall issue on CCW permits is very limited...

You should come on down to San Diego next weekend, there will be somewhere around 50 to 75 (estimated) people Open Carrying at Pacific Beach. We will be handing our Open Carry Pamphlets, and stopping into one/some of the local restaraunts for lunch.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=148494

Window_Seat
02-19-2009, 3:07 PM
Hopefully with Nordyke in 2 weeks, we'll get LOC.


Not to be mean/rude, but can this be potentially true, or is this wishful thinking for such a short amount of time?

Erik.

Decoligny
02-19-2009, 3:17 PM
Not to be mean/rude, but can this be potentially true, or is this wishful thinking for such a short amount of time?

Erik.

"Two Weeks" is a long standing joke in the CalGuns community.

Just do a search.

N6ATF
02-19-2009, 3:23 PM
Two weeks! is a common saying on Calguns, the origin of which will not necessarily be found easily in a search.

During the {San Jose Gun} show, an agent from the Department of Justice (Ignatius Chinn) showed up and answered some questions. He claimed that they were in the process of updating the AW list, and they should be done in about two weeks. At the time, this news was shocking. We figured that they might list some day, but that it would probably be several months if not longer.

pullnshoot25
02-19-2009, 3:43 PM
Well, almost posted something but you guys have it covered... killer :)

Kid Stanislaus
02-19-2009, 4:08 PM
yeah, it is not worth the risk, time, money or gun. I guess i will wait until we can do it without hassel... or just move to a free state..

I'm beginning to think NOTHING is worth the risk is this pathetic excuse for a free state. Everywhere you turn there is something that is prescribed or proscribed, hell you might as well be a Muslim in Saudi Arabia!!

CA_Libertarian
02-19-2009, 4:22 PM
yeah, it is not worth the risk, time, money or gun. I guess i will wait until we can do it without hassel...

Don't worry, there are some among us that will take on the risk and do the dirty work while the going is tough. I'm sure we'll welcome you to the movement when it gets easier.

http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2007/05/summer-soldier-and-sunshine-patriot.html
[i]n the famous passage from "The Crisis" where Thomas Paine wrote:

The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country

he was talking -- quite literally in the former case -- about the fair-weather friends of the Revolution.

(DISCLAIMER: This is a light-hearted jab, please don't take it personally! While I wish everyone were as motivated to fight for our rights, I understand that everybody has their own level of risk aversion. Some are more suited to quarterbacking, and some of us are meat shields. Some are simply there to cheer us on. So, by all means, be a cheerleader, just be the best damn cheerleader you can be! Support us morally and financially - donate to worthy organizations like the CalGuns Foundation and Madison Society (www.madison-society.com). Every little bit helps. Let them know you support open carry!)

racer_X_123
02-19-2009, 4:31 PM
Don't worry, there are some among us that will take on the risk and do the dirty work while the going is tough. I'm sure we'll welcome you to the movement when it gets easier.


No I totally get you what you are saying. I am a college student at the time being so it is not worth it financially for me to be a test case of open carry. Also I am a life member of the NRA and am an activist in terms of letters and phone calls.

So yeah, i guess i am a damn god cheerleader!

Meplat
02-19-2009, 4:38 PM
You might as well be a JEW in Saudi Arabia!



I'm beginning to think NOTHING is worth the risk is this pathetic excuse for a free state. Everywhere you turn there is something that is prescribed or proscribed, hell you might as well be a Muslim in Saudi Arabia!!

Window_Seat
02-19-2009, 4:59 PM
"Two Weeks" is a long standing joke in the CalGuns community.

Just do a search.

I recall and have now caught "back" up on that... I had just woken up from a nap...:D

Erik.

Pronghorn
02-19-2009, 6:07 PM
It seems like the penalty for unlicensed concealed carry is smaller than unloaded open carry. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Besides, OC is a tactical nightmare.

GuyW
02-19-2009, 6:34 PM
It seems like the penalty for unlicensed concealed carry is smaller than unloaded open carry. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Besides, OC is a tactical nightmare.

?

concealed carry is a misdemeanor/felony wobbler.

Open carry is legal.

What's your thought process?
.

KWA-S
02-19-2009, 6:46 PM
So, what you're saying is: " I don't like OC because I'm afraid the bad guy will take away my gun. But I'll do it to "de-sensitize" people to it. But, I'm not old enough to own a handgun." ..................:shrug::banghead:

Sorry about the difficult logic, there; last thing I wrote after a long day. I meant I'm paranoid that someone could, but I'm comfortable enough in my hometown to carry in a few years. Provided its still legal and we shrink the "safe" school zone by then.

Pronghorn
02-19-2009, 8:12 PM
?

concealed carry is a misdemeanor/felony wobbler.

Open carry is legal.

What's your thought process?
.


Concealed carry is an infraction/misdemeanor wobbler.

If open carry is legal, what's with all the arrests?

yellowfin
02-19-2009, 8:30 PM
Don't worry, there are some among us that will take on the risk and do the dirty work while the going is tough. I'm sure we'll welcome you to the movement when it gets easier.We are often under instructions from the people here to do nothing.

Decoligny
02-19-2009, 8:34 PM
Concealed carry is an infraction/misdemeanor wobbler.

If open carry is legal, what's with all the arrests?

All the arrests? How many arrests have you heard of? 150?

No, there have been only a very few arrests for Open Carry, and they have been based upon misunderstanding of the law by the Law Enforcement Officers, or based upon blatant misapplication of the law by Officers who believe that only they can carry weapons.

The most common arrest is probably the "loaded firearm" arrest which stems from a misunderstanding of Penal Code that applies only to those who are intent upon committing a Felony. If you are committing a Felony and you have an unloaded firearm on your person, and you have even a single cartridge for that firearm anywhere on your person, it is considered a loaded firearm according to the Penal Code. This is a crime.

However, if you are a law abiding citizen and you have an unloaded firearm on your person, and you have 500 cartridges for that firearm anywhere on your person, it is considered unloaded and no crime has been committed.

The cop who only knows the Felony half of the equation either unwittingly, or knowingly misapplies the Felony definition to the non-criminal carry.

Pronghorn
02-19-2009, 8:40 PM
All the arrests? How many arrests have you heard of? 150?

No, there have been only a very few arrests for Open Carry, and they have been based upon misunderstanding of the law by the Law Enforcement Officers, or based upon blatant misapplication of the law by Officers who believe that only they can carry weapons.

The most common arrest is probably the "loaded firearm" arrest which stems from a misunderstanding of Penal Code that applies only to those who are intent upon committing a Felony. If you are committing a Felony and you have an unloaded firearm on your person, and you have even a single cartridge for that firearm anywhere on your person, it is considered a loaded firearm according to the Penal Code. This is a crime.

However, if you are a law abiding citizen and you have an unloaded firearm on your person, and you have 500 cartridges for that firearm anywhere on your person, it is considered unloaded and no crime has been committed.

The cop who only knows the Felony half of the equation either unwittingly, or knowingly misapplies the Felony definition to the non-criminal carry.

I agree with you 100%.

If you OC in protest, I understand completely. If you OC for protection, it would be easier, and more effective to carry concealed. After all, concealed means concealed.

Meplat
02-20-2009, 11:02 AM
If you are fat & 40 and have no record, a job, and a family, most LEOs and DAs will look the other way because they see it as a guy just trying to unobtrusively exercise his right to defend himself and his family. Innocuous, if misguided.

They look at open carry as in your face activism. Some see it as a personal challenge. The nail that sticks up MUST be hammered down.

So we see that in reality the "penalty" for a crime is usually much less serious than the "penalty" for a non-crime.:thumbsup:


?
What's your thought process?
.

GuyW
02-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Concealed carry is an infraction/misdemeanor wobbler.


Violating PC 12025 is NOT an infraction.
.

GuyW
02-20-2009, 12:03 PM
If you are fat & 40 and have no record, a job, and a family, most LEOs and DAs will look the other way because they see it as a guy just trying to unobtrusively exercise his right to defend himself and his family.

To my knowledge, not around here.

DDT
02-20-2009, 12:06 PM
If open carry is legal, what's with all the arrests?

The arrests are moot. What's with all the convictions?

There aren't any unless they are violating some other law, school zone, loaded, concealed etc.

Cypren
02-20-2009, 12:11 PM
The arrests are moot. What's with all the convictions?

The arrests aren't moot, unfortunately -- they cost the DA nothing (they aren't politically unpopular -- quite the opposite in this state!) and he doesn't pay the bills, the taxpayers do -- and he knows he can force many people to settle or plead guilty due to the threat of expensive legal proceedings. It's the most horrific abuse of our farcical justice system, but it's commonplace: the threat of prosecution itself is oftentimes more odious than the punishment for a crime.

yellowfin
02-20-2009, 12:15 PM
The arrests aren't moot, unfortunately -- they cost the DA nothing (they aren't politically unpopular -- quite the opposite in this state!) and he doesn't pay the bills, the taxpayers do -- and he knows he can force many people to settle or plead guilty due to the threat of expensive legal proceedings. It's the most horrific abuse of our farcical justice system, but it's commonplace: the threat of prosecution itself is oftentimes more odious than the punishment for a crime.

Precisely why we need an official oppression law here.

CA_Libertarian
02-20-2009, 1:43 PM
Besides, OC is a tactical nightmare.

Yet another unfounded assertion from a member of the "CC is the only way" crowd.

OC vs. CC is personal preference. Visual deterrent, speed of response, and comfort vs. element of surprise? Each of us values each of these aspects subjectively. IMO, it's not even a tough call. If both OC and CC were completely unregulated, I'd OC 95% of the time. The other 5% is when it's cold enough to need a heavy coat.

DDT
02-20-2009, 1:46 PM
I think he was speaking of OC being a tactical nightmare in this specific situation. i.e. counterterrorism SpecOps operators in San Francisco with the associated school zones.