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glenizen
02-18-2009, 4:13 PM
Hi All,

This is my first post on Calguns. I want to report that I was denied the opportunity to take the Handgun Safety Certificate test at Rangemaster of Santa Maria last week because I wasn't purchasing from them. This occurred after I had phoned them to ask if they offered the test/certificate. They replied positively with nary a word about a requirement to purchase from them. I rode my motorcycle 50 miles round trip in the pouring frigging rain to have some ***** tell me that he wouldn't provide a certificate to me because I wasn't making the handgun transaction there. Is this legal?

The next nearest place I found that would provide the test/certificate was over 50 miles away in San Luis Obispo (cheers to John at Four Seasons Outfitters for excellent customer service).

What a pain in the ***** to go through just to purchase a handgun in this state. This is my first handgun purchase in California.

chickenfried
02-18-2009, 4:16 PM
It's hard for me to be mad at the stores doing this. There's a shortage of hsc certificates right now. So it's understandable that the store would reserve the certificates for those purchasing handgun from them.

Alaric
02-18-2009, 4:30 PM
Sorry to hear about your trouble getting the HSC. It's little tribulations like this that can present a fairly formidable barrier to entry to shooting activities for people new to the experience.

So what handgun did you end up buying? Have fun and be safe out there.

peepshowal
02-18-2009, 4:30 PM
It's a shame they didn't let you know about their store policy. Just one more hoop to jump through to get a firearm here. Glad you were not discouraged.

Enjoy your new handgun and welcome to Calguns.

bohoki
02-18-2009, 4:38 PM
act like you are going to buy one you need to have the hsc before you buy anyway after you get it walk

unless they try to get you to go through paperwork first but i dont think they can do that because you dont know that you will pass the test

Mazilla
02-18-2009, 4:47 PM
Lame.

looks like they lost your buisness, I know I would never make a purchase there after that. Customer service is a big factor for me, and you're still paying them to take the stupid test so your not asking for a freebie or anything.

DedEye
02-18-2009, 4:51 PM
That's a bad business move to say the least. Sorry you had to go through that crap.

What direction did you come from, North or South?

Fjold
02-18-2009, 4:57 PM
Even before the shortage of forms stores like Second Amendment Sports in Bakersfield did the same thing.

(I don't shop there, hell, I won't even go in there.)

Q
02-18-2009, 5:00 PM
There's a shortage of hsc certificates right now. So it's understandable that the store would reserve the certificates for those purchasing handgun from them.

Interesting. I didn't know there could be a shortage of certifcates?:confused:

Dr Rockso
02-18-2009, 5:22 PM
Interesting. I didn't know there could be a shortage of certifcates?:confused:
Yep, some shops have had to turn away customers because they were out.

dfletcher
02-18-2009, 5:44 PM
Hi All,

This is my first post on Calguns. I want to report that I was denied the opportunity to take the Handgun Safety Certificate test at Rangemaster of Santa Maria last week because I wasn't purchasing from them. This occurred after I had phoned them to ask if they offered the test/certificate. They replied positively with nary a word about a requirement to purchase from them. I rode my motorcycle 50 miles round trip in the pouring frigging rain to have some ***** tell me that he wouldn't provide a certificate to me because I wasn't making the handgun transaction there. Is this legal?

The next nearest place I found that would provide the test/certificate was over 50 miles away in San Luis Obispo (cheers to John at Four Seasons Outfitters for excellent customer service).

What a pain in the ***** to go through just to purchase a handgun in this state. This is my first handgun purchase in California.

Reminds me of the saying that if you gave $20.00 to a friend who disappeared and never paid you back, it was probably worth it. For $4.00 in gas you now know the folks at Rangemaster can never treat you poorly - and you found a good store as a bonus.

dwtt
02-18-2009, 6:42 PM
Is it legal for a FFL to deny someone who's not obviously ineligible the opportunity to take the test?

Creeping Incrementalism
02-18-2009, 6:44 PM
Yep, some shops have had to turn away customers because they were out.

I must be missing something here. How in the world could there be a shortage? They are just pieces of paper. Is this budget crisis related?

ke6guj
02-18-2009, 6:54 PM
one thing I rememver reading is that the instructors have to pre-purchase the certificates in order to have them to issue to test takers who pass. So, there is gonna be issue right up front in that the instructors aren't gonna want to stockpile a large quantity since that would be money out of pocket untill someone takes the test.

So, there probably isn't normally a large quantity of blank certs out in the wild, because the instructor would just normally restock when he gets low. Now, all of a sudden, every instructor is getting swamped and having to re-order to replenish.


Handgun Safety Certificates (HSCs) must be ordered in sets of ten, at a cost of $150 per set.
So, as you can see, having to pre-pay for certs to have on hand isn't something they are want to stockpile a large quantity of.

Meplat
02-18-2009, 7:25 PM
Welcome to the PRK!:D


Hi All,

This is my first post on Calguns. I want to report that I was denied the opportunity to take the Handgun Safety Certificate test at Rangemaster of Santa Maria last week because I wasn't purchasing from them. This occurred after I had phoned them to ask if they offered the test/certificate. They replied positively with nary a word about a requirement to purchase from them. I rode my motorcycle 50 miles round trip in the pouring frigging rain to have some ***** tell me that he wouldn't provide a certificate to me because I wasn't making the handgun transaction there. Is this legal?

The next nearest place I found that would provide the test/certificate was over 50 miles away in San Luis Obispo (cheers to John at Four Seasons Outfitters for excellent customer service).

What a pain in the ***** to go through just to purchase a handgun in this state. This is my first handgun purchase in California.

rkt88edmo
02-18-2009, 7:25 PM
That is totally ridiculous. Why are you getting an HSC if you aren't buying? The earlier you get the HSC the earlier it expires :)

DDT
02-18-2009, 7:28 PM
I must be missing something here. How in the world could there be a shortage? They are just pieces of paper. Is this budget crisis related?

They are in shortage because A) dealers have to pay up-front to order them and B) the state can limit them in number thus making it more difficult to legally transfer handguns which they have a desire to do.

Meplat
02-18-2009, 7:31 PM
Is that not restraint of traid?

The tests are laughable anyway.

If someone fails that test you should call him a cab as he is not compitant to drive either. Hell! he is not compitant to walk around by himself, call a groupe home.:eek:

Yep, some shops have had to turn away customers because they were out.

fairfaxjim
02-18-2009, 7:33 PM
That is totally ridiculous. Why are you getting an HSC if you aren't buying? The earlier you get the HSC the earlier it expires :)

I'm of the opposite opinion, better to have one and not need it than to stumble accross a great deal and then have to bother with an HSC to close it. Besides, people can't even loan you their handgun - legally - without one.

I became an HSC certified instructor, and keep some certificates around just to make sure all of my friends and neighbors have HSC's. If nothing else, the more of them that are issued, the more of us the BOF knows are out here.

G17GUY
02-18-2009, 7:43 PM
I'm of the opposite opinion, better to have one and not need it than to stumble accross a great deal and then have to bother with an HSC to close it. Besides, people can't even loan you their handgun - legally - without one.

I became an HSC certified instructor, and keep some certificates around just to make sure all of my friends and neighbors have HSC's. If nothing else, the more of them that are issued, the more of us the BOF knows are out here.


What if I already own a handgun but do not have a HSC. Can I barrow a handgun form say my uncle?

DDT
02-18-2009, 7:48 PM
Is that not restraint of traid?


I think the HSC is one of the many things that will not pass constitutional muster. This is probably the closest thing we have to a poll tax in CA. At least with DROS fees there is a requirement for the service to be available. If the HSCs aren't available then your civil rights are being violated, you cannot exercise your second amendment rights if you cannot transfer (borrow) a handgun to your possession even in your own home. Without access to an HSC "amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense."

DDT
02-18-2009, 7:48 PM
What if I already own a handgun but do not have a HSC. Can I barrow a handgun form say my uncle?

not legally.

glenizen
02-18-2009, 7:58 PM
Hey thanks for the sympathies everyone :)

I wouldn't be so pissed if they had stated that was their policy when I called. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I wouldn't wish the absolute worst on them either. As it is, they will never get any of my business. I am a member of two gun clubs and I've let everyone know what happened. Several of my peers have expressed similar sentiments.

To answer some questions posed by a few of you: I ordered a Nagant revolver through my gun club.

I am south of Santa Maria: civilian contractor (Army vet) at Vandenberg Air Force Base.

I am in search of a good, inexpensive .40 cal semi-auto.

Cheers.

Got Stuff?
02-18-2009, 8:13 PM
Originally Posted by G17GUY View Post
What if I already own a handgun but do not have a HSC. Can I barrow a handgun form say my uncle?


not legally.




How is this enforced?
Are HSC holders trained to know a fake? Do HSC holders have the resources to check certificate numbers for validity?
This could be one of the questions on the test for all I know...

Just curious.....

ke6guj
02-18-2009, 8:15 PM
How is this enforced?
Are HSC holders trained to know a fake? Do HSC holders have the resources to check certificate numbers for validity?
This could be one of the questions on the test for all I know...

Just curious.....the way it would be enforced would be if you even came in contact with LE and they determined that you currently were possessing a loaned handgun and did not have an HSC, then the officer could cite/arrest you for the violation.

Gryff
02-18-2009, 10:46 PM
This is my first post on Calguns. I want to report that I was denied the opportunity to take the Handgun Safety Certificate test at Rangemaster of Santa Maria last week because I wasn't purchasing from them.

Well, at least you know who to never buy from.

Steve O
02-18-2009, 11:42 PM
Wow. what!

What the hell is a Handgun Certification Test?
And why are you required to have one?

ke6guj
02-18-2009, 11:54 PM
Wow. what!

What the hell is a Handgun Certification Test?
And why are you required to have one?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo.php

Effective January 1, 2003, the Basic Firearms Safety Certificate Program was replaced with the Handgun Safety Certificate Program. These new statutes affect the general public in two principal ways. First, unless exempt, individuals must possess a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) prior to purchasing or acquiring a handgun. Second, unless exempt, individuals must perform a safe handling demonstration prior to taking delivery of a handgun from a licensed dealer.

wildog8812
02-18-2009, 11:55 PM
Same happened to me a few weeks back, it sucks but I found a different place to get one. Sorry to hear it man, I know i was pissed when they told me the same thing. They have printed a lot more and most shops are getting them in, so more local shops around you should have them.

Good luck buddy.

Steve O
02-19-2009, 12:48 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo.php

lol. what a joke.

"The intent of the California Legislature in enacting the Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) law is to ensure that persons who obtain handguns have a basic familiarity with those firearms....It is not the intent of the Legislature to require an HSC for the mere possession of a firearm [Penal Code (PC) section 12800]."

So does this imply that those who RECENTLY "obtain" a handgun have a HSC to show they have a familiarity with the firearm, but doesn't require those who ALREADY have possession of a handgun to have a HSC?

"It is a fact that a number of depressed, intoxicated, substance abusive, or enraged individuals commit suicide every year with firearms, principally handguns. The developmental issues associated with adolescence makes teenagers particularly susceptible to this unfortunate outcome."

lol.

TheBundo
02-19-2009, 1:47 AM
Does the state keep records of who has a HSC? Or just the gun shop and you?

Dont Tread on Me
02-19-2009, 2:13 AM
Wow, this made my blood boil! The start forces you to take a test before you can then buy a handgun but then make it hard to get hold of the certificates of passing! It also sets things up so dealers have to pay up front to discourage any stocking of the certificates. We should be able to download them from a Web page and print them.

BillCA
02-19-2009, 2:36 AM
DDT is correct - this should not pass constitutional muster. The requirement to obtain a special state card before exercising a right is the same as a Poll Tax.

Further, should the state wish to curtail handgun sales, all the state needs to do it either stop issuing the cards or exhaust the existing supplies without reordering them. Existing cards would still be valid for a limted time of course. Less drastic is that the state could let the demand exceed the supply (in these tight budget times) and 'ration' the cards, thereby throttling sales.

If there really is a shortage of forms out of CAL-DOJ, I sense the need for documentation to support a future 2A constitutional challenge. Documenting that the state not only could run short of forms, but actually did, can show that the state violate the exercise of a right.

One is not required to have an HSC to possess their existing guns. At least I can find no such statute. You only need one if you wish to "acquire" a gun - retail sale, PPT sale, loan or transferof a handgun.

the way it would be enforced would be if you even came in contact with LE and they determined that you currently were possessing a loaned handgun and did not have an HSC, then the officer could cite/arrest you for the violation.

If the firearm itself is registered to "Mike Smith" and you are "John Smith", his nephew, there is the possibility that the above might occur. But California law does not require all handguns be registered nor is a handgun owner required to have an HSC card at all times. It's more credible with a gun made prior to the DROS requirement as it could be an intrafamily gift.

If I'd ridden 50 miles in the rain to be refused an HSC card, I'd have raised holy hades about it in the shop. Gee, I might get so mad I remove my rain jacket and slam it over the counter, spraying rainwater all over the rifle racks behind the counter. :mad:

Dark&Good
02-19-2009, 2:54 AM
I consider such "businessmen" being (mentally) below a frog's arse. The OP would've gone to them later for purchases, too, if they don't f'it'up. And... did I mention the patriotic side of it? I bet that some guys at that shop often bicch about the Kalifornia and Fed gun control, but to do something?... When they could earn some more MONEY instead???

Flintlock Tom
02-19-2009, 5:24 AM
Yep, some shops have had to turn away customers because they were out.

What a clever way for the state to restrict handgun sales.:TFH:

Nodda Duma
02-19-2009, 7:09 AM
The whole HSC thing reminds me of Jim Crow laws, except this is not just for blacks.

-Jason

RobG
02-19-2009, 7:42 AM
Shortage of "printed paper" forms:rolleyes::confused: Sounds like a great way to slow down hand gun purchases:TFH:

CSDGuy
02-19-2009, 10:18 AM
I deal with the HSC problem by being exempt...

cgseanp1
02-19-2009, 10:49 AM
Glad I'm an AZ resident:) I just had this great idea, there are gun shops in Yuma, which is only a few hours from me. Why don't I just drive there to buy my guns??:confused:

Kingofthehill
02-19-2009, 11:14 AM
Shortage of "printed paper" forms:rolleyes::confused: Sounds like a great way to slow down hand gun purchases:TFH:

When i took my HSC test last november at Oak Tree Gun Club, i got their last one. they were actually out for a little more than a WEEK!!!!!!!!

After i got my card i went up to purchase a consigned XD-40... as i was up at the shop, the Owner was selling his personal S&W .500 to a guy, told the guy to go down to get the HSC card.... I told them I got the last one and he blew a gasket... so he couldn't sell his gun to the guy because the guy didnt have one... and without one, you can't even start the paperwork.

then in December I sold a handgun to a CGN member and he didn't have his HSC... we went to Fort Courage in Simi and he was out as well :eek: had to go to Firing line in burbank for the deal.

JOe

DDT
02-19-2009, 12:18 PM
How is this enforced?
Are HSC holders trained to know a fake? Do HSC holders have the resources to check certificate numbers for validity?
This could be one of the questions on the test for all I know...

Just curious.....

Here is a very real example. There is an open carry event in San Diego at the end of this month. Let's say that one of the people in this event doesn't own a handgun. Now let's assume that person borrows a handgun from a friend or family member. If they don't obscure the serial number on said gun and PD run the numbers they could very easily be cited during the CPC 12031 check if they can't produce a valid HSC.

Army
02-19-2009, 12:34 PM
Glenizen, are you the "older" (in quotes, because I'm nearly at the quote age myself!) gentleman taking the HSC test, driving a rather massive custom 4WD van?

If so....Hi! I was the Soldier that walked in :)

Curious why you didn't just go to Dodge City in Santa Barbara. Rick has no problem with the HSC.

cgseanp1
02-19-2009, 12:43 PM
Glenizen, are you the "older" (in quotes, because I'm nearly at the quote age myself!) gentleman taking the HSC test, driving a rather massive custom 4WD van?

If so....Hi! I was the Soldier that walked in :)

Curious why you didn't just go to Dodge City in Santa Barbara. Rick has no problem with the HSC.

Not him unless his motorcylce is really a 4wd van. "I rode my motorcycle 50 miles round trip in the pouring frigging rain to have some ***** tell me that he wouldn't provide a certificate to me because I wasn't making the handgun transaction there."

Outlaw Josey Wales
02-19-2009, 2:05 PM
What a clever way for the state to restrict handgun sales.:TFH:

Almost as restrictive/clever as the one new handgun per month BS! :mad:

albacore
02-19-2009, 2:36 PM
Hi All,

The next nearest place I found that would provide the test/certificate was over 50 miles away in San Luis Obispo (cheers to John at Four Seasons Outfitters for excellent customer service).


Four Seasons is a great place. They are always super friendly.

glenizen
02-19-2009, 2:49 PM
Glenizen, are you the "older" (in quotes, because I'm nearly at the quote age myself!) gentleman taking the HSC test, driving a rather massive custom 4WD van?

If so....Hi! I was the Soldier that walked in :)

Curious why you didn't just go to Dodge City in Santa Barbara. Rick has no problem with the HSC.

Nope - as someone else pointed out I was on my motorcycle. But "Hi!" anyway:D

what2be
02-19-2009, 3:22 PM
Here is a very real example. There is an open carry event in San Diego at the end of this month. Let's say that one of the people in this event doesn't own a handgun. Now let's assume that person borrows a handgun from a friend or family member. If they don't obscure the serial number on said gun and PD run the numbers they could very easily be cited during the CPC 12031 check if they can't produce a valid HSC.

While possible, I find that as probable as getting cited for spitting on the sidewalk or jaywalking. Actually, the 2 options I mentioned are probably 100x more common that getting cited for being in possession of a handgun without a HSC.

DVLDOC
02-19-2009, 3:31 PM
act like you are going to buy one you need to have the hsc before you buy anyway after you get it walk




+1 :thumbsup:

stormbringer
02-20-2009, 12:57 PM
Its amazing that people are so cruel and mean spirited. I happen to be that person from the store that told him i had only five cards left and when he came into the store he had a very bad attitude towards us even before we told him that we only had 5 cards and were going to save them for the customers that bought thier guns with us, it seems only fair that they should get that card. Thats customer service I am watching out for my gun buying customers. I wonder why he didnt buy a card from the place that he bought his gun? I have to pay 150 dallars for a book of ten from the state, how many people can i supply with that? Then to get yelled at in my own store that im going to be sued for keeping him from his gun and violating his 2nd amendment rights . We at Range Master of Santa Maria pride our selves on being very open minded as well as giving the best service with in our means. To finish this off it amazes me that he also failed to mention that as he was walking out after yelling at me in front of our customers that i offered to give him an hsc card for free.

DDT
02-20-2009, 1:01 PM
While possible, I find that as probable as getting cited for spitting on the sidewalk or jaywalking. Actually, the 2 options I mentioned are probably 100x more common that getting cited for being in possession of a handgun without a HSC.

While I might quibble with you over the probability vis a vis the jaywalking etc. I agree that it is highly unlikely. I was merely pointing out one possible way and I'm sure that the PD would like nothing more than to be able to show a violation or two associated with the open carry event.

ke6guj
02-20-2009, 1:01 PM
stormbringer, thanks for posting your side of hte story.

Army
02-20-2009, 1:45 PM
Ah. I took it as you went to Rangemaster on one day, and 4 Seasons the next.

Well..........next time you get to 4 Seasons, we'll talk :)

fairfaxjim
02-20-2009, 1:47 PM
Its amazing that people are so cruel and mean spirited. I happen to be that person from the store that told him i had only five cards left and when he came into the store he had a very bad attitude towards us even before we told him that we only had 5 cards and were going to save them for the customers that bought thier guns with us, it seems only fair that they should get that card. Thats customer service I am watching out for my gun buying customers. I wonder why he didnt buy a card from the place that he bought his gun? I have to pay 150 dallars for a book of ten from the state, how many people can i supply with that? Then to get yelled at in my own store that im going to be sued for keeping him from his gun and violating his 2nd amendment rights . We at Range Master of Santa Maria pride our selves on being very open minded as well as giving the best service with in our means. To finish this off it amazes me that he also failed to mention that as he was walking out after yelling at me in front of our customers that i offered to give him an hsc card for free.

And now, for the rest of the story....

It is good to have both perspectives on this. So often everybody just jumps on for a bashing session and the other side gets lost.

StukaJr
02-20-2009, 3:00 PM
To look at it from Shop owner's point of view - they are offering a free service and not making any money from providing space, instruction and time of their sales staff to fascilitate the test. The collected fee goes straight to State coffers and the increased time each firearm sale takes longer to complete just means that higher prices do not figure into the higher profit - if State facility were to run it, I'd expect the price of the test being double or even tripple (just look at ridiculous biometrics fee).

Buyers may pass bad vibes about California gun laws onto gunshops, but they are equally hurt by the back hand of the same pendulum swing - whining about 10 day waiting periods just means that gunshop is required to provide free month long storage for already sold merchandise (try buying any other merchandise and ask to pick it up 20 days later)

To the "buyer" - why do you need HSC if for not buying a handgun? :| You have to understand shop's frustration when they can't sell a handgun because they have used up all certificates as a free service.

Dont Tread on Me
02-20-2009, 3:03 PM
This is another great example of how the anti gun legislations screws us. It places an incredible burden on those selling guns and inconveniences those wanting to buy them.

I can see both sides. I just wish we could expend some of this energy on impacting the mental midgets in Sacramento that inflict this crap on us.

andrewj
02-20-2009, 3:06 PM
Its amazing that people are so cruel and mean spirited. I happen to be that person from the store that told him i had only five cards left and when he came into the store he had a very bad attitude towards us even before we told him that we only had 5 cards and were going to save them for the customers that bought thier guns with us, it seems only fair that they should get that card. Thats customer service I am watching out for my gun buying customers. I wonder why he didnt buy a card from the place that he bought his gun? I have to pay 150 dallars for a book of ten from the state, how many people can i supply with that? Then to get yelled at in my own store that im going to be sued for keeping him from his gun and violating his 2nd amendment rights . We at Range Master of Santa Maria pride our selves on being very open minded as well as giving the best service with in our means. To finish this off it amazes me that he also failed to mention that as he was walking out after yelling at me in front of our customers that i offered to give him an hsc card for free.

First come, first served seems to be more fair, IMO

Cypren
02-20-2009, 3:21 PM
First come, first served seems to be more fair, IMO

Why? That only leads to someone who wants to buy a gun from the shop but doesn't have an HSC being told, "sorry, you're going to have to find another shop." The license may be issued by state law, but the shops have to buy them in packages from the state at a ridiculous cost and with no guarantee of being able to replenish supply in a timely manner. It seems only right that they should have the discretion to decide who they will sell them to when they have limited supply.

Remember, nothing that requires a license is a right in a legal sense. It is a privilege. We can go round in circles about how horrible it is and how this perverts the Constitution and so on and so forth, and I'll agree, but the current situation in California as of this moment is that handgun ownership is a privilege conferred by the state through a very unfair mechanism that hurts everyone but them.

I don't see anything wrong with the gun shop protecting its own business interests in this case.

ke6guj
02-20-2009, 4:35 PM
The license may be issued by state law, but the shops have to buy them in packages from the state at a ridiculous cost and with no guarantee of being able to replenish supply in a timely manner. It seems only right that they should have the discretion to decide who they will sell them to when they have limited supply.


And if they buy too many and aren't moving through their supply fast enough, they can't even sell them to another instructor.

Desert_Rat
02-20-2009, 9:37 PM
Simular experence here with Rangemaster a couple of years ago.All I wanted to do was shoot on their range,The tool behind the counter would not let me pay the 25 bucks for the test due to the fact that I was not purchasing,only shooting.He had me take the test and He graded it,and after I passed,He let me shoot,then He put the paperwork under the counter.I never stepped foot in there again.

EDITED INFO.After seeing this thread develop..
I did not know that those certs were purchased from the state.So the fact that the guy let me take the test and did not charge me was a pretty good service on his part.I did call the guy a tool in my original posting,due to the fact that while he was allowing me to take this test,He was acting "too cool for school"(typical of gun shop employees when dealing with people they don't know)I now think of that and wonder why did he let me take the test for free?Possibly because I bought a boat load of ammo ant wanted to shoot it on his range,,,possibly?

ke6guj
02-20-2009, 11:49 PM
I feel a ban coming.

edit: that was fast :D

Kestryll
02-21-2009, 12:01 AM
I feel a ban coming.

edit: that was fast :D

Good guess!

That was WAY over the line and uncalled for.
He won't be coming back.

ivanimal
02-21-2009, 12:31 AM
Wow!

Knight
02-21-2009, 12:58 AM
Aw, I missed it. :(

Guess we found out that the temper part of stormbringer's story is true, at least.

andrewj
02-21-2009, 1:25 AM
Why? That only leads to someone who wants to buy a gun from the shop but doesn't have an HSC being told, "sorry, you're going to have to find another shop." The license may be issued by state law, but the shops have to buy them in packages from the state at a ridiculous cost and with no guarantee of being able to replenish supply in a timely manner. It seems only right that they should have the discretion to decide who they will sell them to when they have limited supply.

Remember, nothing that requires a license is a right in a legal sense. It is a privilege. We can go round in circles about how horrible it is and how this perverts the Constitution and so on and so forth, and I'll agree, but the current situation in California as of this moment is that handgun ownership is a privilege conferred by the state through a very unfair mechanism that hurts everyone but them.

I don't see anything wrong with the gun shop protecting its own business interests in this case.

Then that leads to someone wanting to buy an HSC but being told, "sorry, you're going to have to find another shop". The fact of the matter is that someone is going to be turned away. Either way, the store loses.

I don't see anything wrong with the gun shop protecting its own business interests either. But keep in mind my interests are in the equation as well. If I dont get what I want, well then... :seeya: bye. I'll take my business elsewhere. I'll purchase my HSC elsehwere. And that gun I was eventually going to purchase will be, you guessed it, purchased elsewhere. That original store sure missed out on a lot, huh?

fairfaxjim
02-21-2009, 7:22 AM
And if they buy too many and aren't moving through their supply fast enough, they can't even sell them to another instructor.

That's correct, the numbers are assigned to the instructor who purchases them. And, they can only be returned to the state if they are voided or damaged for some reason, and only for replacements, not a refund.

I feel a ban coming.

edit: that was fast :D

Snooze you lose! Darn, I missed another one. I guess he proved stormbringer's point on the attitude, but I'll never know how.

hawk81
02-21-2009, 7:56 AM
You don't take tests to vote, why are we allowing them to make us take tests to exercise our 2nd ammendment right?

fairfaxjim
02-21-2009, 8:01 AM
Sorta looks like this thread has reverted to the "BANNED!" under new names.

kermit315
02-21-2009, 8:11 AM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/fordboy0720/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

rkt88edmo
02-21-2009, 8:12 AM
Why does Calguns censor people? How un-American is that? Oh, that's right, this is The People's Republic of Kalifornistan - not America.

I was a witness to the events described. Stormbringer is a liar.

Hi BadMFDog - We have some pretty clear rules here - and personal attacks, defeating the word filter, and profanity in general are not ok, period.

If people can discuss the issues civilly then they are pretty much welcome to do so.

Calling people "un-American" because they choose to enforce their own rules on their own property - how childish silly and having nothing to do with the constitution or being an American is that? This is not public property, we are not the government.

P.S. Duplicate accounts are not allowed.

Fate
02-21-2009, 8:47 AM
I have to pay 150 dallars for a book of ten from the state, how many people can i supply with that?Is this a trick question? :D

Pred@tor
02-21-2009, 9:57 AM
I had my HSC test done there and I didnt buy my pistol from them but I rented a bunch there the same day.

chickenfried
02-21-2009, 11:35 AM
:confused: If you were going to purchase the gun from the store, you'd be able to take the test.

I had to run around and find an HSC a couple of weeks ago I bear no ill will towards the stores with such a policy.

I'll take my business elsewhere. I'll purchase my HSC elsehwere. And that gun I was eventually going to purchase will be, you guessed it, purchased elsewhere. That original store sure missed out on a lot, huh?

andrewj
02-21-2009, 12:04 PM
:confused: If you were going to purchase the gun from the store, you'd be able to take the test.

I had to run around and find an HSC a couple of weeks ago I bear no ill will towards the stores with such a policy.

I understand that but the topic of the discussion is people who want to purchase an HSC without the intent of purchasing a handgun immediately after. I was one of them. I am 20 years old and firgured I might as well get my HSC test out of the way so when I am 21, I dont have to worry about it. BUT the main reason I NEEDED to take the test was to finalize my Intrafamilial handgun transfer.

Dark&Good
02-22-2009, 11:18 AM
One can't prove that the sun's gonna come up tomorrow. One can't prove that we'll be here tomorrow... or my business... Yes, it's highly probable, but let's just deal with the problems of today TODAY, and let's worry about other things if they become problems - here's a guy who would like to exercise his right to have a firearm, he needs a certificate (too bad, but this is a problem we're dealing with today), so let's get him his certificate, and when one of MY customers will need a certificate, I'll deal with that, too, as best as I can.
My business might go "crash!" one of these days, but I'll still have friends who want to help, as best as THEY can. After all, helping others is part of my business. And if someone places money above help, he lost my "business".

kermit315
02-22-2009, 11:23 AM
I understand that but the topic of the discussion is people who want to purchase an HSC without the intent of purchasing a handgun immediately after. I was one of them. I am 20 years old and firgured I might as well get my HSC test out of the way so when I am 21, I dont have to worry about it. BUT the main reason I NEEDED to take the test was to finalize my Intrafamilial handgun transfer.


see, that whole 18-20 year old age group is a grey area on this. They need HSC's, but cant buy guns from gunstores. So, if shops only give the cards out to those that are going to buy from them, 18-20 year olds would be screwed completely.

I can honestly say, the only solution to this is to abolish the HSC.

fairfaxjim
02-22-2009, 11:32 AM
see, that whole 18-20 year old age group is a grey area on this. They need HSC's, but cant buy guns from gunstores. So, if shops only give the cards out to those that are going to buy from them, 18-20 year olds would be screwed completely.

I can honestly say, the only solution to this is to abolish PC12000 - PC12809.

There, I fixed if for you.

kermit315
02-22-2009, 11:36 AM
even better.

retired
02-22-2009, 11:07 PM
If the OP had been advised during his phone call that due to a limited supply of HSC certificates, they were restricted to those who bought a gun from the store, this thread wouldn't have been made.

It sounds like his primary beef was the lack of communication during the call and IMO, that fault lies with whomever he spoke to and their failure to fully explain the store policy. I don't fault the store for the policy and quite honestly, I wasn't aware of their costs and restrictions for the certificates.

I'm not defending the OP's behavior as stated by Stormbringer, but I can understand why the OP would be upset for driving 50 miles in the rain when he didn't have to. Poor communication can result in someone losing business as it did here. Just my 2 cents.

fairfaxjim
02-22-2009, 11:19 PM
I'm not defending the OP's behavior as stated by Stormbringer, but I can understand why the OP would be upset for driving 50 miles in the rain when he didn't have to. Poor communication can result in someone losing business as it did here. Just my 2 cents.

The OP's, now removed and sanitized, behavior on here kind of tells me that he wouldn't be happy no matter how it worked out. I'm also not sure how it is anyone else's fault that he rode 50 miles on a motorcycle in the rain either. I still remember my father saying something about having sense enough to get in out of the rain. IIRC, Dad wasn't using it as a compliment either.

Peter W Bush
02-27-2009, 1:46 AM
Dont mean to threadjack, but am I the only one here that wants to vomit every time he thinks about the fact that we need a HSC to buy a handgun in this state? and dont get me started about the one a month law...

JDay
02-27-2009, 2:38 AM
You should remind them that the CA DOJ requires them to give the test to anyone 18 or older who asks to take it. They are an agent of the state after all.

rayra
02-27-2009, 3:13 AM
Target Range on Cohasset in Van Nuys has teh same crappy policy, with no apology about supposed shortages. They flatly won't give the exam to someone not putting more money in their pockets.

fairfaxjim
02-27-2009, 9:34 AM
You should remind them that the CA DOJ requires them to give the test to anyone 18 or older who asks to take it. They are an agent of the state after all.

Please post the PC/Reg or a link to it that says that I have to do anything with the HSC Certified Instructor card that I applied for, I paid for, and I am responsible for, as well as the certificates that I orderd, I paid for, and I am also responsible for. I am not an FFL, but I am a Certified HSC Instructor. I am not even actually REQUIRED to purchase ANY certificates from the DOJ. I could have the Instructor cert and only do safe handling affidavits. I am not an "Agent" of the state, I am simpy authorized by the state to implement specific aspects of a specific program. Having said that, I think EVERYONE should get an HSC, just to show the state that everyone wants to have the ability to exercise their right to obtain a handgun. Hell, I don't even charge the $10 bucks I can for doing it, I think it is that basic, and only recover my $15 out of pocket expense. But, telling me I HAVE to do it will not get you one from me at any price.

The HSC is also not specifically part of being an FFL. There are certain HSC responsibilities that the FFL has, but the actual issuing of HSC's is not one of them. That falls to the Certified Instructors. The dealer, or an employee may also be the Certified HSC Instructor, but that is not a requirement. The dealer is not actually even required to do the safe handling demo, but must have the affidavit that it was done by a Certified HSC Instructor. The HSC Instructor's manual is on the BOF website, the first chapter in it is "Firearms Dealers Responsibilities", and issuing HSC's is not included. The two primary HSC statutory responsibilities of licensed firearms dealers are: (1) confirming
handgun purchasers/recipients have obtained the required HSC; and (2) confirming handgun
purchasers/recipients have successfully performed the mandatory safe handling demonstration.
Now, does it make any sense for an FFL selling handguns to not issue HSC's? Not really. Does the HSC test BS make any sense? not reallly. However, common sense and logic are not part of CA firearms laws. Never lose sight of the real fact that these BS programs exist is to make buying handguns harder and to discourge as many people as possible from becoming hand gun owners.

cousinkix1953
02-28-2009, 5:28 AM
Why? That only leads to someone who wants to buy a gun from the shop but doesn't have an HSC being told, "sorry, you're going to have to find another shop." The license may be issued by state law, but the shops have to buy them in packages from the state at a ridiculous cost and with no guarantee of being able to replenish supply in a timely manner. It seems only right that they should have the discretion to decide who they will sell them to when they have limited supply.

Remember, nothing that requires a license is a right in a legal sense. It is a privilege. We can go round in circles about how horrible it is and how this perverts the Constitution and so on and so forth, and I'll agree, but the current situation in California as of this moment is that handgun ownership is a privilege conferred by the state through a very unfair mechanism that hurts everyone but them.

I don't see anything wrong with the gun shop protecting its own business interests in this case.

I know people, who said, "f--- it, I don't need this BS", and closed their doors for good. Maybe every gun dealer in the state should go on a strike. Nobody gets any more firearms or ammunition at all, until these stupid laws are repealed. People will get angry when they no longer have their 2nd Amendment rights even for a week...

tenpercentfirearms
02-28-2009, 6:29 AM
I don't sell LPKs unless you buy a lower or one of the few uppers I have in stock along with everything else. If I can sell a guy an LPK with his lower, he will also buy a buttstock, a compliance package and more. LPKs are a pretty vital part of upselling and so I cannot afford to just sell 10 of them to one guy who comes into the store.

Is that fair? Hell yes it is fair, fair to me and my entire reason for being a business owner...to make money.

In this case, it is the same thing. If the store runs out of HSCs, they cannot sell a handgun to someone who doesn't have one. Well actually, they could sell it to them and just sit on it until the HSC comes in and then start the DROS. However, basically no HSCs equals no handgun sales to people without HSCs or exemptions.

Now, we at Ten Percent Firearms stock plenty of HSCs. I order two books at a time and all three of us partners have HSC certification. So if Becky runs low, I can always sign them. If I run low, Becky can sign them. We usually have 10-50 HSCs in stock at all times.

I was talking to the HSC lady a few weeks back and she just happened to mention how slammed they were by the Obama panic. They were issuing HSCs like never before and they simply ran out. Being a government agency, they have contracts and preferred vendors and they couldn't get their vendor to produce more quickly enough, so they have to find another vendor. As is the case with government, they work very slowly.

They should be about caught up by now. However, this should be a lesson to FFLs. Stock plenty of HSCs. Seriously, they are $150 a book. If you have three books in stock at all times, that is only $450 in inventory waste. $450 of inventory waste is nothing. Running out of HSCs will probably cost you more than that.