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biglou
02-18-2009, 1:46 PM
Myself and a co-worker/friend went to LCAction in San Jose today to buy Kel-Tec P3AT handguns. We show our ID's and the lady tells my friend that the change of address card that DMV gave him is not acceptable. He tells her that he used it two weeks ago at another shop to purchase a Rem. 870.
The clerk gets the manager and the manager tells him that ATF is here right now conducting an audit and that ATF is try to "get them" for using those change of address cards. ATF is telling them that anybody can write their address on them and they are not sufficient for proof of residence. He can't use his vehicle registration 'cause it had his old address (he just bought a new house). He has to go to DMV and get an "Official Printout" with his new address. Keep in mind we had of LE IDs with us. They let him make the purchase but he can't pick up the weapon without that paperwork. What I don't get is, if that is what DMV issues, why doesn't the ATF recognize it ?

DDT
02-18-2009, 1:52 PM
I always thought that DLs were not sufficient proof of residency for handgun purchases even if they did have your correct address.

tophatjones
02-18-2009, 1:54 PM
I'm not sure I understand. I thought the proof of residency was a Ca thing, not at the federal level. Also, there are specific forms of proof of residency that are approved by the DOJ. The following is taken directly from the FAQs section at the DOJ's website http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G

What documentation is acceptable to demonstrate proof of residency for handgun purchasers?

* Utility bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form

or
2. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

"Utility bill" means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired telephone connection or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection) or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.
* Residential lease that bears the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form

or
2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification card, or change of address attachment thereto.

"Residential lease" means either of the following:
1. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant)agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time

or
2. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.
* Property deed the bears the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form

or
2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

"Property deed" means either or the following:
1. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust

or
2. A valid Certificate of title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.
* Current, government-issued license, permit, or registration, other than a CA Driver License or CA Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form

or
2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

Examples of acceptable proof of residency:
1. Current DMV registrations.
2. Electricity, gas, cable bill with purchaser's name onit from within the last 3 months.
3. Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.

Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:
1. Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
2. Cellular phone bill.

kap
02-18-2009, 1:59 PM
Myself and a co-worker/friend went to LCAction in San Jose today to buy Kel-Tec P3AT handguns. We show our ID's and the lady tells my friend that the change of address card that DMV gave him is not acceptable. He tells her that he used it two weeks ago at another shop to purchase a Rem. 870.
The clerk gets the manager and the manager tells him that ATF is here right now conducting an audit and that ATF is try to "get them" for using those change of address cards. ATF is telling them that anybody can write their address on them and they are not sufficient for proof of residence. He can't use his vehicle registration 'cause it had his old address (he just bought a new house). He has to go to DMV and get an "Official Printout" with his new address. Keep in mind we had of LE IDs with us. They let him make the purchase but he can't pick up the weapon without that paperwork. What I don't get is, if that is what DMV issues, why doesn't the ATF recognize it ?

I got the exact same story from Turner's in Redondo Beach a several months ago. They would not accept my FFL03 license as proof and they would not let me purchase a rifle without the DMV printout stapled to my license. Sounds like some serious FUD being spread by the ATF.

biglou
02-18-2009, 2:04 PM
I always thought that DLs were not sufficient proof of residency for handgun purchases even if they did have your correct address.

I believe you are correct. They never questioned me. As we were walking out the door she said "Remember, bring a back a valid registration". This is what bugs me about this. The CA-DMV is an official state agency. If no other agency is not going to accept their change of address cards, then the DMV needs to issue something more viable.

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 2:08 PM
Could a C&R license be an acceptable form for documentation purposes?

Casual Observer
02-18-2009, 2:43 PM
Last I remember, when I did a change of address on my license, you can write down anything you want. It's not like the DMV is going to come to your house and check that you live there.

I could write down "1600 Pennsylvania Ave." on that form and I am pretty sure I'd get an ID in the mail with that address on it.

PIRATE14
02-18-2009, 2:47 PM
If you read the new 4473s it has to be a GOV'T issued document that has your current address on it......

CHK it out.....

We are going through a lot of hassels for this requirement.....

PIRATE14
02-18-2009, 2:49 PM
Last I remember, when I did a change of address on my license, you can write down anything you want. It's not like the DMV is going to come to your house and check that you live there.

I could write down "1600 Pennsylvania Ave." on that form and I am pretty sure I'd get an ID in the mail with that address on it.

Nobody said it has to CORRECT....that's your call....

Def has to GOV'T issued....

CSDGuy
02-18-2009, 2:54 PM
Well, the OP was doing a Handgun purchase. Those DL's would be certainly good for establishing "Identity" but not for "Residency". For a handgun purchase, you need BOTH established. That's why another piece of information (like Car registration or hard-wired/hard line utility bill, or even a grant deed/rental/lease agreement) is needed.

As to Casual Observer's idea of writing 1600 Pennsylvania Ave as your address, that'd be fine, but you wouldn't be getting a new ID/CDL in the mail with that address on it unless you actually reside there.

fullrearview
02-18-2009, 4:07 PM
Myself and a co-worker/friend went to LCAction in San Jose today to buy Kel-Tec P3AT handguns. We show our ID's and the lady tells my friend that the change of address card that DMV gave him is not acceptable. He tells her that he used it two weeks ago at another shop to purchase a Rem. 870.
The clerk gets the manager and the manager tells him that ATF is here right now conducting an audit and that ATF is try to "get them" for using those change of address cards. ATF is telling them that anybody can write their address on them and they are not sufficient for proof of residence. He can't use his vehicle registration 'cause it had his old address (he just bought a new house). He has to go to DMV and get an "Official Printout" with his new address. Keep in mind we had of LE IDs with us. They let him make the purchase but he can't pick up the weapon without that paperwork. What I don't get is, if that is what DMV issues, why doesn't the ATF recognize it ?


lol.... MY dl has my P.O. box on it, and when I do transfers I just Have to use two forms of ID.

sounds like they are mightier than tho!!! At least in their own minds.

Nodda Duma
02-18-2009, 6:28 PM
If you read the new 4473s it has to be a GOV'T issued document that has your current address on it......

CHK it out.....

We are going through a lot of hassels for this requirement.....

What about folks who are getting turned away for using FFL03?

-Jason

Codelphious
02-18-2009, 6:56 PM
Nobody said it has to CORRECT....that's your call....

Def has to GOV'T issued....

No, dude. As someone already posted, can be anything listed here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G, including, but not limited to a driver's license.

You could use a copy of your lease or deed, almost any utility bill, or just about any government issued permit, license or registration document (e.g. driver's license, ccw permit, vehicle registration).

ke6guj
02-18-2009, 7:09 PM
No, dude. As someone already posted, can be anything listed here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G, including, but not limited to a driver's license.

umm, I think the pirate knows what he's talking about. He's an FFL who actually has to deal with this on a daily basis.

You could use a copy of your lease or deed, almost any utility bill, or just about any government issued permit, license or registration document (e.g. driver's license, ccw permit, vehicle registration).Those first 3 items you listed may meet the state requirements, but there are federal requirements as well, and those first 3 would not meet the requirements, since they are not .gov issued.

Here is the new 4473, http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf . Look at question 20a and 20b. And then look at the instructions to the FFL regarding 20a and 20b.

LOW2000
02-18-2009, 8:26 PM
I don't understand how one FFL could refuse another FFL's license as proof of residency.

rbgaynor
02-18-2009, 9:16 PM
I've never had problems using my 03 FFL as a gov issued license.

tyrist
02-18-2009, 11:51 PM
Myself and a co-worker/friend went to LCAction in San Jose today to buy Kel-Tec P3AT handguns. We show our ID's and the lady tells my friend that the change of address card that DMV gave him is not acceptable. He tells her that he used it two weeks ago at another shop to purchase a Rem. 870.
The clerk gets the manager and the manager tells him that ATF is here right now conducting an audit and that ATF is try to "get them" for using those change of address cards. ATF is telling them that anybody can write their address on them and they are not sufficient for proof of residence. He can't use his vehicle registration 'cause it had his old address (he just bought a new house). He has to go to DMV and get an "Official Printout" with his new address. Keep in mind we had of LE IDs with us. They let him make the purchase but he can't pick up the weapon without that paperwork. What I don't get is, if that is what DMV issues, why doesn't the ATF recognize it ?

Peace officers, including reserve and retired peace officers, may present valid credentials issued by a California law enforcement agency in lieu of the other required residency documentation. This consideration is given to peace officers who do not want to provide documentation of their residence address for security reasons and who otherwise do not object to having their credentials copied by the firearms dealer for inclusion with the DROS record.

(PC section 12071)

The ID should have done the trick but most dealers don't know this.

PIRATE14
02-19-2009, 12:35 AM
No, dude. As someone already posted, can be anything listed here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#33G, including, but not limited to a driver's license.

You could use a copy of your lease or deed, almost any utility bill, or just about any government issued permit, license or registration document (e.g. driver's license, ccw permit, vehicle registration).

Don't confuse state law req's w/ FEDs......

PIRATE14
02-19-2009, 12:37 AM
Peace officers, including reserve and retired peace officers, may present valid credentials issued by a California law enforcement agency in lieu of the other required residency documentation. This consideration is given to peace officers who do not want to provide documentation of their residence address for security reasons and who otherwise do not object to having their credentials copied by the firearms dealer for inclusion with the DROS record.

(PC section 12071)

The ID should have done the trick but most dealers don't know this.

Pretty sure this will cover state but not FEDs....

tyrist
02-19-2009, 12:40 AM
Pretty sure this will cover state but not FEDs....

LE only dealers have only ever asked for my driver license and police ID...So unless they are violating federal law it works.

PIRATE14
02-19-2009, 12:52 AM
LE only dealers have only ever asked for my driver license and police ID...So unless they are violating federal law it works.

As far as I know...which is some...there isn't a federal waiver...for peace officers....

Now this is all new ground w/ the new forms....I think it'll be interesting to see how things hash out.....but there are more than a few areas where fed and cal state regs/laws don't mesh....

But if your fillin out a new yellow form and you don't show a .gov piece of paper w/ your physical location that matches........

tenpercentfirearms
02-19-2009, 5:30 AM
The state will let LEO waive their residency with department ID, but there is no federal provision to do so. I will e-mail my ATF rep and ask her about that.

My ATF agent has also instructed me not to accept the brown DMV cards unless they have been officially stamped. The other thing is all FFLs need to make sure they are filling out question 20b when the DL does not match the current address. Further, my agent specified to me that when I fill out 20b (I must), then I no longer have to keep a copy of the document I use for 20b. Therefore, the ATF would not know if it was stamped or an official print out or not. :TFH:

She also instructed me not to keep copies on alien proof of residency either. I just need to write down what they are and not keep copies so she has lest to find wrong when she audits me.

Your C&R 03 FFL should qualify as a government issued document with an expiration date. Sorry your FFL didn't accept it.