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.454
02-17-2009, 5:49 PM
Mihail Kalasnikov is admitting he was "helped" by the German inventor and arms maker Hugo Schmeisser to create the AK-47 assault rifle (http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot.com/2009/02/michail-kalashnikov-admits-german-help.html)

-- The German inventor developed the first assault weapon Sturmgewehr 44 during WWII. After the end of the war Schmeisser was displaced and forced to work in the Soviet Union

Gryff
02-17-2009, 6:02 PM
You think?

Noobert
02-17-2009, 6:05 PM
OMG!!!!

audihenry
02-17-2009, 6:06 PM
The NAZIs are responsible for more of our modern world than you might imagine. Still, that site is a simple blog without credibility so I wouldn't consider that a conclusion.

eijjie33
02-17-2009, 6:06 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Jpach
02-17-2009, 6:11 PM
Hmmm. Im taking this with a very salty grain of salt.

.454
02-17-2009, 6:43 PM
Still, that site is a simple blog without credibility so I wouldn't consider that a conclusion.

You don't say? The source from which the article was translated is the second-largest (http://www.ziua.ro/index.php) Romanian newspaper.
Oh, I know...that doesn't add any credibility at all :rolleyes:

But let me tell you a little story... after the war the Russians disassembled piece by piece and brick by brick the entire I.A.R. aircraft factory situated in the town of Ghimbav in Romania. I.A.R. used to make a pretty neat and performant fighter airplane (not as well known as other WWII airplanes because of the relatively small production numbers) It was called I.A.R 80/81 fighter and it compared favorably to the German He-112 (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAR_81 )
In 1946 the Soviet troops loaded every single piece of the I.A.R. factory together with the working force in freight trains and reassembled the stolen aircraft factory back in the Russian motherland. Just a handful of the hundreds of displaced workers ever made it back home from the Soviet Union.

So I really don't understand what it is so incredible about the Kalashnikov getting forced "help" from Hugo Schmeisser to develop and mass produce the AK-47. It seems to me that you are pretty clueless of the persuasion methods employed by the Soviet comrades.

Linus
02-17-2009, 6:43 PM
Wait, were are all asking the wrong question. The right question is, 'What in the world have the Germans not been a part of?'

Nodda Duma
02-17-2009, 6:46 PM
I don't buy it. Kalashnikov worked on the design in 1944. Schmeisser didn't get to Izhevsk until late '46...about the time that the AK was going through acceptance trials.

Helped to produce the AK? Perhaps. Schmeisser worked in the Izhevsk factory into the 50's. But helped create it? That's just a load of BS.

-Jason

bohoki
02-17-2009, 6:48 PM
the real question is do you think the germans woudl have invented such a sloppy klacky gun

everything german sounds like a vault door when it locks up the ak is like a barn door

.454
02-17-2009, 6:49 PM
"No Senator...our Germans are better than their Germans".

Dr. Peter Venkman
02-17-2009, 6:55 PM
I don't see how much help Schmeisser could have been to Kalashnikov when all he did was put an integral piston and rotating bolt on a Simonov/Tokarev gas system.

.454
02-17-2009, 7:00 PM
I don't buy it. Kalashnikov worked on the design in 1944. Schmeisser didn't get to Izhevsk until late '46...about the time that the AK was going through acceptance trials.



You forgot a little detail...StG-43/44 was already in service in 1944 when Kalashnikov started his work on the AK-47.
Here is an easy question for you: where do you think the first Stg-43/44 captured by the Soviet comrades on the battlefield landed, once it arrived by overnight airmail in Moscow? The Kalashnikov bureau of reverse design, or however the Russkies may have called it.

Here is another clue for you:

Space Shuttle Columbia landing at Baikal airbase in Russia?

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8081/buranlanding9528169zr1.jpg

Nope, Buran, the Soviet space shuttle. 100% Russian engineering ;)

Dodge?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/GAZ_M-21.jpg

Nope, Volga.

audihenry
02-17-2009, 7:12 PM
Good for you. Now put a picture of the Saturn V next to a V2. :36:

.454
02-17-2009, 7:26 PM
Good for you. Now put a picture of the Saturn V next to a V2. :36:


As I quoted on a previous post:

"No Senator...our Germans are better than their Germans".

...to which the German rocket scientists intervened: "Nein, nein, ve are Swiss" :D

Here is another one:

B-29 Superfortress visiting the Soviet Union?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8756/tu4monin01531380cd8.jpg

Nope, Tupolev Tu-4, from which Tu-85 was developed

bbguns44
02-17-2009, 8:00 PM
Any of you taken college physics or math classes ? The textbooks are
full of Russian names. I don't get this slamming of Russians. They are not
stupid. They have problems but stupidity is not one of them.

Spiggy
02-17-2009, 8:01 PM
You forgot a little detail...StG-43/44 was already in service in 1944 when Kalashnikov started his work on the AK-47.
Here is an easy question for you: where do you think the first Stg-43/44 captured by the Soviet comrades on the battlefield landed, once it arrived by overnight airmail in Moscow? The Kalashnikov bureau of reverse design, or however the Russkies may have called it.
Walther and Schmeisser had produced and started trials of the prototype Mkb42 series starting in 1942. After many upgrades and revisions, it was adapted as the MP43 and MP44s respectively

the design had heavy influence from other piston drive guns of the time, of or including the ZB26 and BAR

.454
02-17-2009, 8:23 PM
Any of you taken college physics or math classes ? The textbooks are
full of Russian names. I don't get this slamming of Russians. They are not
stupid. They have problems but stupidity is not one of them.

What you didn't learned in school is the fact that in 1942 Stalin gave a directive to his espionage apparatus to steal whatever piece of technology they could lay their hands on from whoever they could (Germans, Americansky, Brits, didn't matter) then study it, make an absolute identical copy by reverse engineering, then study the copy again and find a way to make it simpler and cheaper vto manufacture using only the country domestic resources.
Why would they do that? For saving money, time and resources.
It is cheaper for a KGB spy to pay an Brit or an American traitor working the XYZ Arms Co. $250,000 and get the blueprints of a proven weapon in a matter of weeks if not days, than to pay the salaries of an entire team of Russian scientists, engineers and other specialists for 3-4 years, build an R&D facility for them, develop the weapon, build a factory to mass produce it - only to end up with a product that may or may not be competitive with the one developed by the American of British competitors.

Philthy
02-17-2009, 8:26 PM
Any of you taken college physics or math classes ? The textbooks are
full of Russian names. I don't get this slamming of Russians. They are not
stupid. They have problems but stupidity is not one of them.

I don't think it's Russian bashing, it's more Soviet bashing. Why should a person innovate and invent something if there is no private property and you can't get rich? Hero of the Soviet Union is nice, but it ain't a mansion in Bel Air.

Case in point: Communist China - home of the knockoff. Some companies just take Japanese motorcycles and reverse engineer them. Bootleg movies. Leevi's. However, once they hit full stride and start innovating (they have: there's that Chinese athletic company gunning for Nike - Li Ning, the ones who did the Spanish basketball chinese eyes ad). I think they will start to respect trademarks. Or I could be wrong.

As far as the blog, I don't know. Kalasnikov has always denied any connection to the STG. I remember seeing an interview when he met Eugene Stoner and I think they asked him that question. He vigorously denied any connection.

Philthy
02-17-2009, 8:37 PM
What you didn't learned in school is the fact that in 1942 Stalin gave a directive to his espionage apparatus to steal whatever piece of technology they could lay their hands on from whoever they could (Germans, Americansky, Brits, didn't matter) then study it, make an absolute identical copy by reverse engineering, then study the copy again and find a way to make it simpler and cheaper vto manufacture using only the country domestic resources.
Why would they do that? For saving money, time and resources.
It is cheaper for a KGB spy to pay an Brit or an American traitor working the XYZ arms development center $250,000 and get the blueprints of a proven weapon in a matter of weeks if not days, than to pay the salaries of an entire team of Russian scientists, engineers and other specialists for 3-4 years, build an R&D facility for them, develop the weapon, build a factory to mass produce it - only to end up with a product that may or may not be competitive with the one developed by the American of British competitors.

We're also talking about a country that was basically coming out of the dark ages, so it's not like they had a huge industrial base. They had lots of catching up to do.

The Soviets did lots of copying/stealing. But somehow they came up with the T34. Air cooled so the radiator wouldn't freeze, wide tracks. The Germans had to play catch up on that one.

FortCourageArmory
02-17-2009, 8:55 PM
Hmmm, let's see. STG was put into service in 1943. It saw service on the Eastern Front. Undoubtedly captured by the Soviets. Gas piston system nearly identical with the AK. Russian 7.62x39 intermediate round a very similar to the German 7.92 x 33mm. But the STG had NO influence on the AK. HA!!! Kalashnikov followed the principle and just made it cheaper and simpler. To say he wasn't influenced by the STG is laughable regardless what he said.

fd15k
02-17-2009, 9:09 PM
Buran only externally resembles Space Shuttle. It has(had) very different specs, and the flight shown on the posted picture was conducted in automatic mode, which Space Shuttle is not capable of.

Btw, I read Russian, and Kalashnikov himself, as well as the current Izhevsk director denied several times the version of AK-47 being a copy. Number of design concepts were adapter, but it is a totally different product.


You forgot a little detail...StG-43/44 was already in service in 1944 when Kalashnikov started his work on the AK-47.
Here is an easy question for you: where do you think the first Stg-43/44 captured by the Soviet comrades on the battlefield landed, once it arrived by overnight airmail in Moscow? The Kalashnikov bureau of reverse design, or however the Russkies may have called it.

Here is another clue for you:

Space Shuttle Columbia landing at Baikal airbase in Russia?

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8081/buranlanding9528169zr1.jpg

Nope, Buran, the Soviet space shuttle. 100% Russian engineering ;)

Dodge?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/GAZ_M-21.jpg

Nope, Volga.

dwa
02-17-2009, 9:17 PM
i don't think he directly ripped it off but he definitely took a good look at it. the m43 round i believe though was a parallel development.

slick_711
02-17-2009, 9:28 PM
And the FG42/MG42 were not inspected prior to the design of the M60? ;)

The STG 44 was certainly inspected, and used as a starting point for the design of the AK47. That is beyond contention. The round was already available and in production from the design of the SKS, so of course they went with that caliber. How much of a "base" the STG provided is debatable, but what does it matter? It won't change the time and combat proven record of the AK.

Whether he was standing on someone's shoulders or not, Kalishnakov is the name most remembered. Before Stoner, and certainly before Schmeisser. So who cares?

Solidsnake87
02-17-2009, 9:50 PM
Hmmm. Im taking this with a very salty grain of salt.

+1. Till I hear it from his mouth or a credible source I'm smooth ridin it like normal.

.454
02-17-2009, 9:54 PM
CIA slipped bugs to Soviets
Memoir recounts Cold War technological sabotage (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4394002)

The CIA learned of the full extent of the KGB's pursuit of Western technology in an intelligence operation known as the Farewell Dossier. Portions of the operation have been disclosed earlier, including in a 1996 paper in Studies in Intelligence, a CIA journal. The paper was written by Gus W. Weiss, an expert on technology and intelligence who was instrumental in devising the plan to send the flawed materials and served with Reed on the National Security Council. Weiss died Nov. 25 at 72.

According to the Weiss article and Reed's book, the Soviet authorities in 1970 set up a new KGB section, known as Directorate T, to plumb Western research and development for badly needed technology. Directorate T's operating arm to steal the technology was known as Line X. Its spies were often sprinkled throughout Soviet delegations to the United States; on one visit to a Boeing plant, "a Soviet guest applied adhesive to his shoes to obtain metal samples," Weiss recalled in his article.

Then, at a July 1981 economic summit in Ottawa, President Francois Mitterrand of France told Reagan that French intelligence had obtained the services of an agent they dubbed "Farewell," Col. Vladimir Vetrov, a 53-year-old engineer who was assigned to evaluate the intelligence collected by Directorate T.

Vetrov, who Weiss recalled had provided his services for ideological reasons, photographed and supplied 4,000 documents on the program. The documents revealed the names of more than 200 Line X officers around the world and showed how the Soviets were carrying out a broad-based effort to steal Western technology.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,981214-3,00.html

Polyakov's promotion to general in 1974 gave him access to a cornucopia of intelligence beyond his immediate mission: for example, a shopping list, several inches thick, of military technologies sought by Soviet spies in the West. "It was breathtaking," recalls Richard Perle, an Assistant Secretary of Defense for President Reagan. "We found there were 5,000 separate Soviet programs that were utilizing Western technology to build up their military capabilities." Polyakov's list helped Perle persuade Reagan to press for tighter controls on Western sales of military technology.

Anyone sees a pattern?

Pugster
02-17-2009, 9:59 PM
IIRC, the AK-47 also had features from many of the "good" weapon designs from that era (i.e. M1 Garand rotating bolt design).

Sampachi
02-17-2009, 9:59 PM
I too will take the salty grains...
When you compare the AK and the Stg44 next to one another, they really don't share as much as everyone thinks. I saw a picture of a very early AK prototype and it was incredibly bulky. If anything, I would think that Kalashnikov created it, and Schmeisser was forced to refine it.

mblat
02-17-2009, 10:26 PM
1. About Buran.

This is non-sense. If you ask two qualified engineers to solve the same task their solutions will be similar. The more difficult task is ( meaning limited number of solutions ) the more similar those solutions will be. Russians didn't stole Buran, as well as they didn't steel Concord.
Same task produced the same results.

2. About AK.
Was AK influenced by STG44? But of cause..... only American generals were stubborn enough to reject the concept of intermediate round and assault rifle right after the war. Russians after getting there asses kicked so hard weren't about to reject simple truth - side that throws most lead wins. Hence assault rifle with intermediate cartridge. M14 is truly fine weapon, quite possible best MBR of all times, but the point was that time of MBRs has passed.
Conisder this: what was the most important things about STG44? It wasn't how it worked. Surprisingly it was how it looked ( had free standing pistol grip ) and what it fired ( intermediate cartridge ). Based on that every single assault rifle in the word ( short of bullups ) are direct descendant of STG.

However..... truly what difference does it make...... Kalashnikov may have had help or not ( I think he did ). So what? What Russians were the only nation who used German help? Anybody heard anything about Wernher von Braun?

Dr Rockso
02-17-2009, 10:41 PM
1. About Buran.

This is non-sense. If you ask two qualified engineers to solve the same task their solutions will be similar. The more difficult task is ( meaning limited number of solutions ) the more similar those solutions will be. Russians didn't stole Buran, as well as they didn't steel Concord.
Same task produced the same results.

Yep, aside from external appearances there's really not a whole lot of similarities between Buran and STS (as I've heard is the case with the AK and the MP44, though I've never had the opportunity to handle an MP44). The Buran orbiter itself is really just a payload, it doesn't have any onboard rockets like the Shuttle. All things considered the Buran might have even been a better vehicle, but it didn't have enough advantages over the other launchers the Ruskies were using. Also, despite the ability to build some decent spacecraft, hanger construction is apparently a lost art in the former USSR. The only Buran orbiter that ever flew was destroyed in a hanger collapse several years ago.

timdps
02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
the real question is do you think the germans woudl have invented such a sloppy klacky gun

everything german sounds like a vault door when it locks up the ak is like a barn door

Not everything German sounds like a vault door... there is the G43. Sounds like a kid slamming doors while running down a hallway. SVT40 is much smoother.

tim

audihenry
02-17-2009, 11:39 PM
Also, despite the ability to build some decent spacecraft, hanger construction is apparently a lost art in the former USSR. The only Buran orbiter that ever flew was destroyed in a hanger collapse several years ago.

Nyet. The Buran was abandoned after the collapse of Communism. It was stored in one place after another (I actually saw it in Moscow when I visited in 1993 rotting by the side of the river) and until the accident you describe was in such bad shape that it was basically put out of its misery.

A lot of Americans tend to talk a lot of crap about Soviet technology and innovation. So be it. Anyone who isn't a blind hater will know that until its collapse and a little bit after, at which point apparently teachers stopped teaching for some reason, the Soviet Union produced some of the most brilliant mathematicians, physicists, chemists, and so on. You didn't hear about Soviet accomplishments at the time because every bit of information was controlled and hundreds of not thousands of pioneers went to their graves without ever being acknowledged for their work.

Many of you repeat what you hear on tv and read in Westernized history books. I was born there and spent my formative years behind the Iron Curtain so I know what I'm talking about.

Just my 2 kopeks.

Skunkworks45
02-18-2009, 12:46 AM
Space Shuttle Columbia landing at Baikal airbase in Russia?

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8081/buranlanding9528169zr1.jpg

Nope, Buran, the Soviet space shuttle. 100% Russian engineering ;)

Dodge?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/GAZ_M-21.jpg

Nope, Volga.



Valley girl born in Encino and raised doing little more than surfing in Malibu?


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1192/862912579_16f4a40068.jpg?v=0



Nope. Russian engineering at its finest. :thumbsup:

TheBundo
02-18-2009, 1:46 AM
The US & USSR split up the German brains at the end of WW2. The cold war was all about "Our Germans are smarter than your Germans"

Nodda Duma
02-18-2009, 6:22 AM
You forgot a little detail...StG-43/44 was already in service in 1944 when Kalashnikov started his work on the AK-47.




I didn't forget that well-known fact. Of course he looked at the StG-44. He also looked at the M1 Garand. And the old autoloading Remingtons. He then took the best features of all and put them together in a highly reliable assault rifle. That's pretty similar to how most design work goes, if you didn't know.

But did Schmeisser help him develop it? No. Provide advice on making it producible..likely. Or did I not interpret the badly worded blog as the author would have wanted? If all it's saying is that Schmeisser helped make the AK-47 producible, than why don't you post something we didn't know.

-Jason

Zebra
02-18-2009, 7:01 AM
For what it's worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Design concept

The AK-47 is best described as a hybrid of previous rifle technology innovations: the double locking lugs and unlocking raceway of the M1 Garand/M1 carbine,[7] the trigger and safety mechanism of the John Browning designed Remington Model 8 rifle,[8] and the gas system and layout of the StG44. Kalashnikov's team had access to all of these weapons and had no need to "reinvent the wheel",[9][10] though he denied that his design was based on the German Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle.[11] Kalashnikov himself observed: "A lot of [Soviet Army soldiers] ask me how one can become a constructor, and how new weaponry is designed. These are very difficult questions. Each designer seems to have his own paths, his own successes and failures. But one thing is clear: before attempting to create something new, it is vital to have a good appreciation of everything that already exists in this field. I myself have had many experiences confirming this to be so."[12]

Frank

Pvt. Cowboy
02-18-2009, 7:56 AM
I don't see how anyone can miss the Remington Model 8's influence on Russian military automatic rifle design. Remington sold quite a lot of them to Czarist Russia before WWI:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6302/rem8008wl6.jpg

Spiggy
02-18-2009, 7:59 AM
wikipedia, take it with that salty grain

seriously, take a broad look at all the piston gas system rifles and machine guns of the era, they all look the same.


What I will believe in is Schmeisser's influence on the kalashnikov by innovating their mass manufacturing capabilities. There's a huge gap they crossed from manufacturing Mosin Nagants and SKSs to straight out AK47s. Schmeisser had a huge thing going for the reich by simplifying and innovating machine time required for putting out German submachine guns. If you take a look at the K43 and MP44, those things are a bit more complex than the british beer can with parts they call a STEN.

just note the manufacturing time between stamp and machined AK receivers and parts and you'll see what I mean

.454
02-18-2009, 8:01 AM
Many of you repeat what you hear on tv and read in Westernized history books. I was born there and spent my formative years behind the Iron Curtain so I know what I'm talking about.

Just my 2 kopeks.

That explains the tone of your previous posts.
Unfortunately, I was born in a country that was too close to the Soviet Union.
And what a coincidence: I remember being in grade school and listening to the comrade teacher telling us that every single great invention of the mankind was originally thought of by a Soviet scientist. Rockets, cars, parachutes, steam engines, airplanes, light bulbs, antibiotics - only to name a few. All were first invented in Russia, our great friend from the East. I am not kidding. Of course, all claims that many of these inventions were the work of inventors from other countries were only capitalist and imperialist lies. He told us if we hear anybody saying these kinds of lies, it was our patriotic duty to report to him what we heard and from who we heard it.
I am not contesting Russians had their share of contributions in mathematics, physics, chenistry, engineering, art and literature. I never met a Russian guy who didn't mentioned that to me. I understand, it is a matter of national pride. But you know what invention not a single one of them mentioned? Communism. 200,000,000 victims and counting.

AJAX22
02-18-2009, 8:24 AM
I personally believe that the actual design work was probably done by kalashnikov and a team or russians and based the concepts on proven guns of the day, (as has already been stated)

I suspect that the german's help on the AK was mostly on the production end developing the AKM and developing the tools/machine processes which were used to mass produce the rifle.

The gun designer was essentially a sheet metal expert, so he was probably instrumental in developing the dies/brakes/presses/stamps and processes which were used to make the AKM a few years later.

He also may have helped with the AKM under folder stock design, as it has strong MP40 undertones.

I have no basis for any of this, but I have worked extensively with sheet metal and I can definitively see how an expert in the field could be used to transition from a milled manufacturing process to a stamped manufacturing process.

HotRails
02-18-2009, 9:17 AM
Now here is an opportunity to bring up this point. It would have been better if Kalishnikov would have followed the Stg 44 design and put the charging handle on the left, thereby allowing the user to charge the rifle without letting go of the pistol grip.

The looser tolerances of the AK would, I think, have been a design improvement over the Stg 44.

I may even go out on a limb here and suggest that Stoner borrowed as well, with the concept of the separating upper and lower receiver and the ejection port cover looks almost identical to Stg44. It seems where the Russians improved on the original concept, by loosening the tolerances, Stoner actually did the opposite by tightening the tolerances and reducing the caliber, thereby creating a design less effective within the ranges for which it was intended. (The blitzkrieg tactics closed large gaps between opposing forces very quickly) A neat extension of this concept was the curved barrel attachment of the Stg 44 used instead of a mounted MG on the JagdPanzer.

btw. Did the Stg 44 have a bolt hold open feature?

Army GI
02-18-2009, 9:42 AM
This argument is stupid. The basic design principle may have been used, but the weapon itself is Russian designed.

What of all the semi automatic pistols in the world? 90% are based off the browning tilting barrel mechanism. I don't see anybody making a big stink about that.

hoozaru
02-18-2009, 10:33 AM
another V-2 rocket??

audihenry
02-18-2009, 12:03 PM
This argument is stupid. The basic design principle may have been used, but the weapon itself is Russian designed.

What of all the semi automatic pistols in the world? 90% are based off the browning tilting barrel mechanism. I don't see anybody making a big stink about that.

Plus, many of the modern handguns are based on the Walther and Mauser models, both during and before the Nazis.

Axewound
02-18-2009, 12:50 PM
As I quoted on a previous post:

"No Senator...our Germans are better than their Germans".

...to which the German rocket scientists intervened: "Nein, nein, ve are Swiss" :D

Here is another one:

B-29 Superfortress visiting the Soviet Union?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8756/tu4monin01531380cd8.jpg

Nope, Tupolev Tu-4, from which Tu-85 was developed

the soviets were also part of the lend lease act, much like the british. They even have shermans and P40s in there museums. yes, ive seen them with my own eyes

postal16
02-18-2009, 1:12 PM
It is no secret that the majority of military hardwear and other manufactured goods were reversed engineered or copied from western designs by the Soviets.

I found the whole story of the TU-4 being copied/reversed engineered from the B-29 to be amazing...especially how they tricked the US in selling them the landing gear through smoke and mirrors. The only items not copied were the machine guns and the engines.

But to be fair, we have done the same, it is a fact that the 1903 Springfield action was so similar to the Mauser 98 design that the US was forced to pay royalties after the fact to Mauser.

Also, in oneof my books on the M1 Garand, it was amazing to see photos of the Japanese and German attempts to copy this design!

postal16
02-18-2009, 1:14 PM
the soviets were also part of the lend lease act, much like the british. They even have shermans and P40s in there museums. yes, ive seen them with my own eyes

The Russian Air Force was sent so many B-25 bombers (over 800) through Lend Lease that NATO gave it the designtation "BAT" during the cold war. We also sent them P-39 Airocobras and C-47s.

audihenry
02-18-2009, 1:17 PM
It is no secret that the majority of military hardwear and other manufactured goods were reversed engineered or copied from western designs by the Soviets.

I found the whole story of the TU-4 being copied/reversed engineered from the B-29 to be amazing...especially how they tricked the US in selling them the landing gear through smoke and mirrors. The only items not copied were the machine guns and the engines.

But to be fair, we have done the same, it is a fact that the 1903 Springfield action was so similar to the Mauser 98 design that the US was forced to pay royalties after the fact to Mauser.

Also, in oneof my books on the M1 Garand, it was amazing to see photos of the Japanese and German attempts to copy this design!

There's a saying in Armenian that translates roughly to, "A thief stole from a thief and God was surprised." Doesn't have the same ring to it translated, but you get the idea. :D

postal16
02-18-2009, 1:20 PM
Now here is an opportunity to bring up this point. It would have been better if Kalishnikov would have followed the Stg 44 design and put the charging handle on the left, thereby allowing the user to charge the rifle without letting go of the pistol grip.

The looser tolerances of the AK would, I think, have been a design improvement over the Stg 44.

I may even go out on a limb here and suggest that Stoner borrowed as well, with the concept of the separating upper and lower receiver and the ejection port cover looks almost identical to Stg44. It seems where the Russians improved on the original concept, by loosening the tolerances, Stoner actually did the opposite by tightening the tolerances and reducing the caliber, thereby creating a design less effective within the ranges for which it was intended. (The blitzkrieg tactics closed large gaps between opposing forces very quickly) A neat extension of this concept was the curved barrel attachment of the Stg 44 used instead of a mounted MG on the JagdPanzer.

btw. Did the Stg 44 have a bolt hold open feature?


Every good engineering design is built on what works well with previous designs...nothing wrong with that.

Also, think about the fact that the AK-47 is not the main battlerifle produced by the Soviets, the AK-74 is, which adopted a round closer to the 5.56mm.

I see the influence that the Stg 44 had on the AK-47, but they are 2 different rifles.

chris
02-18-2009, 1:20 PM
well you have to think that the STG44 and the AK47 look very similar. about time he admits it.

postal16
02-18-2009, 1:23 PM
There's a saying in Armenian that translates roughly to, "A thief stole from a thief and God was surprised." Doesn't have the same ring to it translated, but you get the idea. :D

Do you remember that show in thr 1980s on PBS called Connections, where modern day inventions are taken back to their origins hundreds of years? That show always facinated me, and it is interesting to consider that every invention is the result of many other inventions and ideas.

audihenry
02-18-2009, 2:22 PM
Do you remember that show in thr 1980s on PBS called Connections, where modern day inventions are taken back to their origins hundreds of years? That show always facinated me, and it is interesting to consider that every invention is the result of many other inventions and ideas.

Newton said something along the lines of, "If I have seen farther it is only because I stand on the shoulders of giants."

mblat
02-18-2009, 5:01 PM
That explains the tone of your previous posts.
Unfortunately, I was born in a country that was too close to the Soviet Union.
And what a coincidence: I remember being in grade school and listening to the comrade teacher telling us that every single great invention of the mankind was originally thought of by a Soviet scientist. Rockets, cars, parachutes, steam engines, airplanes, light bulbs, antibiotics - only to name a few. All were first invented in Russia, our great friend from the East. I am not kidding. Of course, all claims that many of these inventions were the work of inventors from other countries were only capitalist and imperialist lies. He told us if we hear anybody saying these kinds of lies, it was our patriotic duty to report to him what we heard and from who we heard it.
I am not contesting Russians had their share of contributions in mathematics, physics, chenistry, engineering, art and literature. I never met a Russian guy who didn't mentioned that to me. I understand, it is a matter of national pride. But you know what invention not a single one of them mentioned? Communism. 200,000,000 victims and counting.

Huh.... May be they never done it because Russians didn't invent communism? that would be Germans.... German Jew if you really want to go there.....
Besides - what difference does it really makes? May be your DISLIKE ( very well deserved ) of Soviet Union influences your opinions of EVERYTHING Russian?

Q
02-18-2009, 5:14 PM
The MP40 Schmeisser is the coolest subgun of WW2; especially because of the stock. That's why I LOVE the AKMS design.:cool:

Kid Stanislaus
02-18-2009, 6:06 PM
Alexander Rose covers this in "American Rifle: A Biography". The Russies had, of course, a few captured German GWR 44 assault rifles. The problem was their production technology was pretty rough at that time and what they came up with was basically a shabby copy that worked!

audihenry
02-18-2009, 6:25 PM
Alexander Rose covers this in "American Rifle: A Biography". The Russies had, of course, a few captured German GWR 44 assault rifles. The problem was their production technology was pretty rough at that time and what they came up with was basically a shabby copy that worked!

Keep in mind Russia lost the most out of WWII. It could not invest in technology as well as some of the richer and not-as-affected countries could, and most of the men were out fighting anyway. This is why post war a lot of the stuff was just a little more than a copy of Lend Lease equipment. Over time, they would improve on them, but initially yes, it was a very sh*t time to get any kind of good production done.

supersonic
02-19-2009, 9:14 AM
I don't see how anyone can miss the Remington Model 8's influence on Russian military automatic rifle design. Remington sold quite a lot of them to Czarist Russia before WWI:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6302/rem8008wl6.jpg

I totally agree with you on this one. In fact, I'm surprised that I'm the first to reply to your statement(s). When I got my '03, this was the first long gun I swiped off GunBroker. When I got it & took it apart/re-assembled it/shot it - I was very much convinced (being it was the first semi-auto rifle to come out of the U.S.) that it absolutely had some major influences on the European/Eastern Bloc arms that appeared decades later. The recoiling BBL/bolt inside the BBL sleeve was another amazing design Browning put into this rifle, too. It's one of the top 5 "most funnest" guns to shoot in my collection.:D