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JohnnyAppleseed
02-17-2009, 11:52 AM
By Linda Spice of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Feb. 17, 2009 12:26 p.m.

A West Allis municipal judge today ruled in favor of a local man arrested for disorderly conduct after a neighbor complained that he was carrying a gun while planting a tree.

Judge Paul Murphy found Brad Krause not guilty of disorderly conduct in a case that drew to a hearing numerous gun rights advocates to witness what may be the first open carry gun case heard in a Wisconsin courtroom.

For Krause, however, the significance of the case extended beyond gun rights: It was an infringement on civil liberties, he said after today's decision.

"The reason people are upset about this is it's not about guns. It's about civil liberties. And we obviously have a property issue. There was no warrant issued, no exigent circumstances, no permission to enter the property, yet the police stormed in with guns drawn and put my life at risk," Krause said. "My wife was very worried that she would be a widow in short order because I was planting a tree."

West Allis police responded to Krause's home last August after a neighbor called to ask about the legality of him openly carrying a gun in a holster on his property. Police responded, arrested Krause and ticketed him for disorderly conduct, an offense he and his attorney, Steven Cain, fought during a court trial in December. Police also seized his gun.

Cain said today, "The big overarching issue is whether open carry is legal. The law in Wisconsin really only limits concealed carry. The law in Wisconsin, as we see it, is that open carry is absolutely legal, protected, and should be."

Cain argued that the U.S. Supreme Court last summer in the case of D.C. vs. Heller concluded that open carry is "an individual right that shouldn't be abridged by law enforcement. That's what the case is generally all about."

In explaining why he was carrying a gun while planting a tree, Krause said, "There's no requirement to justify why you're able to exercise constitutional rights. I and everyone else are able to go to church, they're able to vote, they're able to speak their mind. Even though the city might not like it, we have that right."

The case is also one that has been watched closely around the country, particularly by the co-founders of the Virginia-based OpenCarry.org, John Pierce and Mike Stollenwerk.

Said Pierce: "Really, the larger issue is not even a gun rights issue. It's the issue of having a disorderly conduct statute that is a catchall statute for otherwise legal behavior."

dasmi
02-17-2009, 11:53 AM
Excellent.

sorensen440
02-17-2009, 11:54 AM
great to hear

CitaDeL
02-17-2009, 11:56 AM
Outstanding.

This is a pretty good direction since 'disorderly conduct' is the primary reason most people don't open carry in Wisconsin. I suspect this may encourage the practice.

Fate
02-17-2009, 11:57 AM
Bucket full of WIN!

Liberty1
02-17-2009, 12:03 PM
Wisconsin has been so close in the past to getting a concealed license system, it is beyond time for organized open carry defense walks along the Ohio model daring the state to unlawfully arrest dozens for "disorderly conduct".

YoungGun2
02-17-2009, 12:10 PM
One step closer :thumbsup:

JDoe
02-17-2009, 12:23 PM
Outstanding and very welcome news! Thank you for posting it!

1BigPea
02-17-2009, 12:27 PM
The fight continues...

xxdabroxx
02-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Good for him, when i read that report a while back i couldn't believe it.

DDT
02-17-2009, 12:53 PM
"the significance of the case extended beyond gun rights: It was an infringement on civil liberties" what a terrible quote.

Gun rights ARE civil rights.

RudyN
02-17-2009, 1:17 PM
That is great. I like to hear things like this. :thumbsup:

Theseus
02-17-2009, 1:27 PM
:12:

Blowing up BS charges one case at a time!

BobB35
02-17-2009, 1:58 PM
Look at this

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0217092samsung1.html

WI seems to have a problem with using disorderly conduct as a catch all even beyond RKBA. I foresee this stuff leading to the the good citizens of WI paying a lot of money to lawyers and plaintiffs in the future.

When laws are arbitrary and left up to "interpretation", they become at best suggestions and at worst tyranny.

vrand
02-17-2009, 2:18 PM
Wisconsin has been so close in the past to getting a concealed license system, it is beyond time for organized open carry defense walks along the Ohio model daring the state to unlawfully arrest dozens for "disorderly conduct".

:thumbsup:

CCWFacts
02-17-2009, 2:33 PM
Wisconsin has been so close in the past to getting a concealed license system, it is beyond time for organized open carry defense walks along the Ohio model daring the state to unlawfully arrest dozens for "disorderly conduct".

They came agonizingly close on multiple occasions. I think they passed it twice with an override-ready majority but then they had maybe one or two votes flop on the override vote and so couldn't override the veto. I think there was also a factor of being sabotaged by some GOA-style one-man "organization" there.

They will get it, but it will take more fighting and more LE support. Maybe OC walks, Ohio-style, are the way to go. This ruling certainly helps.

Dirtbiker
02-17-2009, 2:36 PM
Look at this

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0217092samsung1.html

WI seems to have a problem with using disorderly conduct as a catch all even beyond RKBA. I foresee this stuff leading to the the good citizens of WI paying a lot of money to lawyers and plaintiffs in the future.

When laws are arbitrary and left up to "interpretation", they become at best suggestions and at worst tyranny.

Disorderly conduct used to be called "Contempt of Cop" it is/was a catch all to arrest someone for the heck of it.

Kid Stanislaus
02-17-2009, 5:43 PM
I guess farting in public could get one arrested for "disorderly conduct"?

AggregatVier
02-17-2009, 8:41 PM
1) Did he get his gun back intact and untampered with?

2) Did the police issue a statement?

Liberty1
02-17-2009, 8:47 PM
All the coverage is here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/ and http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/

Liberty1
02-17-2009, 9:04 PM
1) Did he get his gun back intact and untampered with?

2) Did the police issue a statement?

1) not yet

2) HaHaHaHaHa (no) He's going to sue them :thumbsup:

Paladin
02-17-2009, 9:24 PM
First off: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Wisconsin has been so close in the past to getting a concealed license system, it is beyond time for organized open carry defense walks along the Ohio model daring the state to unlawfully arrest dozens for "disorderly conduct".Next off: perhaps the next step should be an intermediate one they can do around the state (once the weather improves) -- Loaded Open Carry alcohol/drug-free barbecue parties in people's front yards! :party:

Seesm
02-18-2009, 1:22 AM
Very cool I am happy for him and all of us... I wanna go plant a tree with my gun at my side. :)

AndrewMendez
02-18-2009, 1:25 AM
We need to have a "WALK" with our unloaded pistols! Who wants to plan it with me!?

gunsmith
02-18-2009, 1:58 AM
after we incorporate the 2nd, lets plant some trees in CA!

Whiskey84
02-18-2009, 2:24 AM
+1 excellent

Paladin
02-18-2009, 3:37 AM
Next off: perhaps the next step should be an intermediate one they can do around the state (once the weather improves) -- Loaded Open Carry alcohol/drug-free barbecue parties in people's front yards! :party:
Seems like WI is trying to have its cake and eat it too. The antis (e.g., Gov. Doyle) say you don't need "Shall Issue" CCW since WI has a state con RKBA, just OC. Then the bureaucrats and CLEOs use various means to intimidate and punish those who try to legally OC. Fortunately, WI gunnies are organizing below the MSM and steadily moving forward!

Excellent article re the situation at:
http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=8970

Mulay El Raisuli
02-18-2009, 7:33 AM
I guess farting in public could get one arrested for "disorderly conduct"?


You didn't see the post about this on the Current Legal Cases forum? The one titled "The end times"?

The Raisuli

pingpong
02-18-2009, 8:20 AM
Sweet, awesome news.

Though I wonder if the guy was able to recoup his legal fees...

bulgron
02-18-2009, 8:28 AM
Sweet, awesome news.

Though I wonder if the guy was able to recoup his legal fees...

I doubt that he can recoup them directly in a criminal case like this. However, if I was him I'd be suing his police department for harassment or unlawful public endangerment (the officer drew his weapon for no good reason, willfully escalating a situation that wasn't even a situation in the first place) or whatever else fits.

Wisconsin gun owners need to once and for all put their police departments in their proper place. Just as, I'm sure, Californian gun owners are going to have to do the same thing once the Nordyke tree bears fruit and we can access lawful LOC.

CCWFacts
02-18-2009, 9:31 AM
Btw, it looks like disorderly conduct is being used as a catch-all for exercising a protected right contrary to the whims of the police. Man charged with disorderly conduct for taking pictures in the NY subway (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/nyregion/18about.html?_r=2):

Rule 1050.9 (c) of the state code says, “Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used.”

In handcuffs, Mr. Taylor was delivered to the Transit District 12 police station....

Before he was uncuffed, he got a batch of summonses.

The first was for “taking photos from the s/b plat of incoming outgoing trains without authority to do so,” abbreviating “southbound platform.” It cited Rule 1050.9 (c).

The second was for disorderly conduct, which consisted of addressing the officers in an “unreasonable voice.”

Wow. An "unreasonable voice". This is just a guy taking photos in a public place, with both 1st amend protection and explicit statutory protection, and he gets a DC charge.

I hope all such victims of these bogus charges get big settlements. Ideally they should be able to also pursue the arresting officers and even the prosecutors. Is there a way this could be a Federal criminal civil rights violation?

hvengel
02-18-2009, 10:13 AM
Look at this

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0217092samsung1.html

WI seems to have a problem with using disorderly conduct as a catch all even beyond RKBA. I foresee this stuff leading to the the good citizens of WI paying a lot of money to lawyers and plaintiffs in the future.

When laws are arbitrary and left up to "interpretation", they become at best suggestions and at worst tyranny.

In this case the person charged with disorderly conduct actually lied to the police officer. Why did they not charge her with that (obstruction) instead of disorderly conduct? Or is that not against the the law in WI (this would be surprising if that was the case)?

pullnshoot25
02-18-2009, 11:38 AM
We need to have a "WALK" with our unloaded pistols! Who wants to plan it with me!?

Plan one for your area like gir007 has been doing for ours!

swhatb
02-18-2009, 12:34 PM
By Linda Spice of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Feb. 17, 2009 12:26 p.m.

A West Allis municipal judge today ruled in favor of a local man arrested for disorderly conduct after a neighbor complained that he was carrying a gun while planting a tree.

Judge Paul Murphy found Brad Krause not guilty of disorderly conduct in a case that drew to a hearing numerous gun rights advocates to witness what may be the first open carry gun case heard in a Wisconsin courtroom.

For Krause, however, the significance of the case extended beyond gun rights: It was an infringement on civil liberties, he said after today's decision.

"The reason people are upset about this is it's not about guns. It's about civil liberties. And we obviously have a property issue. There was no warrant issued, no exigent circumstances, no permission to enter the property, yet the police stormed in with guns drawn and put my life at risk," Krause said. "My wife was very worried that she would be a widow in short order because I was planting a tree."

West Allis police responded to Krause's home last August after a neighbor called to ask about the legality of him openly carrying a gun in a holster on his property. Police responded, arrested Krause and ticketed him for disorderly conduct, an offense he and his attorney, Steven Cain, fought during a court trial in December. Police also seized his gun.

Cain said today, "The big overarching issue is whether open carry is legal. The law in Wisconsin really only limits concealed carry. The law in Wisconsin, as we see it, is that open carry is absolutely legal, protected, and should be."

Cain argued that the U.S. Supreme Court last summer in the case of D.C. vs. Heller concluded that open carry is "an individual right that shouldn't be abridged by law enforcement. That's what the case is generally all about."

In explaining why he was carrying a gun while planting a tree, Krause said, "There's no requirement to justify why you're able to exercise constitutional rights. I and everyone else are able to go to church, they're able to vote, they're able to speak their mind. Even though the city might not like it, we have that right."

The case is also one that has been watched closely around the country, particularly by the co-founders of the Virginia-based OpenCarry.org, John Pierce and Mike Stollenwerk.

Said Pierce: "Really, the larger issue is not even a gun rights issue. It's the issue of having a disorderly conduct statute that is a catchall statute for otherwise legal behavior."

One step closer to helping out california :chris:

Liberty1
03-02-2009, 11:32 PM
more press

GK3dcxZQ2vE

glockwise2000
03-02-2009, 11:42 PM
Would anyone know if his gun was loaded? It's Wisconsin though. I know in CA it would be illegal.

Liberty1
03-02-2009, 11:51 PM
Loaded is not prohibited in WI generally (or most states for that matter)

FrankoUSA
03-03-2009, 7:28 AM
Would anyone know if his gun was loaded? It's Wisconsin though. I know in CA it would be illegal.


In CA it is legal to carry a loaded firearm on your property, place of business or private property.


so why was the guy arrested

WokMaster1
03-03-2009, 7:37 AM
In CA it is legal to carry a loaded firearm on your property, place of business or private property.


so why was the guy arrested

anti gun officer & CO. the charge was for something stupid like disorderly conduct. Glad to see the court beating the charges down.

Soldier415
03-03-2009, 7:58 AM
Excellent news!

GuyW
03-03-2009, 9:28 AM
In CA it is legal to carry a loaded firearm on your property, place of business or private property.


(I address this only so that Calgunners are informed).

No, you can only have a loaded gun in your business. (You can certainly have, and IIRC carry, a loaded gun at your house - read the Penal Code)

Unfortunately, private property that the public can enter without breaching physical barriers is not legal for a loaded gun.

You can find numerous threads here on these issues...
.

sfpcservice
03-03-2009, 9:47 AM
All we need now is a supply of 50mg Nordyke Suppositories we can administer to the appropriate people in California!

Glock22Fan
03-03-2009, 10:04 AM
(I address this only so that Calgunners are informed).

No, you can only have a loaded gun in your business.

Unfortunately, private property that the public can enter without breaching physical barriers is not legal for a loaded gun.

You can find numerous threads here on these issues...
.

You can have a loaded gun inside your home. I realize, Guy, that you almost certainly know this, but people reading your posts wouldn't necessarily know.

GuyW
03-03-2009, 10:06 AM
You can have a loaded gun inside your home.

Yes - poor writing. I was focused on the business aspect, and not addressing the home aspect.

sfpcservice
03-03-2009, 10:14 AM
You can have a loaded gun inside your home. I realize, Guy, that you almost certainly know this, but people reading your posts wouldn't necessarily know.

Just like I do right now! :thumbsup:

ZRX61
03-03-2009, 12:16 PM
(I address this only so that Calgunners are informed).

No, you can only have a loaded gun in your business. (You can certainly have, and IIRC carry, a loaded gun at your house - read the Penal Code)

Unfortunately, private property that the public can enter without breaching physical barriers is not legal for a loaded gun.

You can find numerous threads here on these issues...
.

So if my front gate is closed I can have a gun in my front yard, but not if the gate is open? or does my "home" include the land up to the property line?

Glock22Fan
03-03-2009, 12:31 PM
So if my front gate is closed I can have a gun in my front yard, but not if the gate is open? or does my "home" include the land up to the property line?


Closed and locked.

And the fence must surround the property.

If a delivery person, or a Jehovah's Witness or whatever can walk in there, you are not wise to carry a firearm.

This is from people v. Overturf in the L.A. courts; it might be overturned or ignored in a different court as it is thought to be a bad decision. However, best not to risk it.

eijjie33
03-03-2009, 1:23 PM
our property is fenced all around but the gate is not lock,so anyone can come in,that's why i wear my gun only inside the house since we lock the doors all the time even if someone is home just to be safe.can never be too careful specially in my neighborhood,and also with the increase of burglaries being committed.

SteveH
03-03-2009, 2:24 PM
Wisconsin? Is that part of northern California or something?

Cypren
03-03-2009, 2:29 PM
Wisconsin? Is that part of northern California or something?

Only in Nancy Pelosi's dreams.

woodey
03-03-2009, 3:46 PM
Good news