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JagerTroop
02-17-2009, 3:36 AM
I'm very dissappointed with them. In fact, they've lost a few loyal customers over this issue. Which is...

I get a call from my mother last night, saying that she was denied the purchase of a few lowers. She has enjoyed shooting my ARs (the few times she has) and wanted to build one for herself, and her husband. So, when the election scare hit, she asked me where to get one, fearing that they may be banned in the near future. I had since moved upstate, so I directed her to the closest place to her, which was Ammo Bros. I told her what to buy, and told her that I'd get her the rest of the components, and complete a rifle or 2 on my next trip down. She purchased 3 doublestar lowers back in early Nov. and has been waiting ever since.
About a week ago, she checked back (as she did about every 3 or 4 weeks) and they were in. They were prepaid, so as she completed her DROS, one of the guys comes out of the back, and asks" Are these your lowers?", she replied that they were. He then asked"What are you going to do with them?" She said that she was going to build them in to rifles. He then inquired, "What kind of rifles?".

WTF? What's with the 3rd degree? My 60 year old mother doesn't know much about guns, but does like to shoot. Is it a crime to stock up on a possibly "soon to be banned" item, without being an expert?

In short, she was denied sale, because the clerk felt it was a straw purchase. Obviously, they would be "family" rifles, for her and her husband. However, they were being purchased by her, and would remain in her possesion.

I'm upset with Ammo Bros, and am through with their BS.
A 3 month wait, completed paperwork, then treating a law abiding, taxpaying, gun owning, woman like a POS??

I know Ammo Bros. post on here... You guys F'ed up! You will never see another cent from me or my friends and family! I alone spend about $10k a year on guns, and it will never go to you.


Regards,
Eli

Sam
02-17-2009, 3:55 AM
I guess we have to remain silent at gun stores and when harassed by the police.

jumbopanda
02-17-2009, 3:59 AM
Don't do transfers through them. I waited over a month to get a rifle because they couldn't pull their heads out of their asses. Incompetence at its finest.

tenpercentfirearms
02-17-2009, 4:19 AM
I'm very dissappointed with them. In fact, they've lost a few loyal customers over this issue. Which is...

I get a call from my mother last night, saying that she was denied the purchase of a few lowers. She has enjoyed shooting my ARs (the few times she has) and wanted to build one for herself, and her husband. So, when the election scare hit, she asked me where to get one, fearing that they may be banned in the near future. I had since moved upstate, so I directed her to the closest place to her, which was Ammo Bros. I told her what to buy, and told her that I'd get her the rest of the components, and complete a rifle or 2 on my next trip down. She purchased 3 doublestar lowers back in early Nov. and has been waiting ever since.
About a week ago, she checked back (as she did about every 3 or 4 weeks) and they were in. They were prepaid, so as she completed her DROS, one of the guys comes out of the back, and asks" Are these your lowers?", she replied that they were. He then asked"What are you going to do with them?" She said that she was going to build them in to rifles. He then inquired, "What kind of rifles?".

WTF? What's with the 3rd degree? My 60 year old mother doesn't know much about guns, but does like to shoot. Is it a crime to stock up on a possibly "soon to be banned" item, without being an expert?

In short, she was denied sale, because the clerk felt it was a straw purchase. Obviously, they would be "family" rifles, for her and her husband. However, they were being purchased by her, and would remain in her possesion.

I'm upset with Ammo Bros, and am through with their BS.
A 3 month wait, completed paperwork, then treating a law abiding, taxpaying, gun owning, woman like a POS??

I know Ammo Bros. post on here... You guys F'ed up! You will never see another cent from me or my friends and family! I alone spend about $10k a year on guns, and it will never go to you.


Regards,
Eli

That is the bad thing about the straw purchase game. If the dealer gets any inkling of it being a straw purchase, they should deny the transaction. It isn't worth it to get caught up in a sting operation.

I wasn't here for this transaction so I cannot comment on what was said by the customer or by the gun shop as I am hearing it third hand. I just know I have had to deny some sales because people were making straw purchases. 60 year old women buying AR15 lower receivers would raise my suspicions too.

I might have asked who was going to help her build them and why? If she said my son I might have bought it. I might have also said, "Who is your son?" and seen if he had made DROS through us before.

Or I might have gotten a bad vibe and said no. Or I might have just reminded her of the law and that if she is lying she is breaking the law. Was her husband there with her or any other male friends? If she was by herself, I probably would have taken her at her word.

Again, the straw purchase thing is so sketchy on both sides, it is a tough call. You might think the sale or even your $10K of business is worth Ammo Bros losing their license over. They might disagree. It is a sucky system for sure.

If I were your mother, I would go back and try one more time. I would ask them why a 60 year old woman who wasn't buying guns for herself would put two on back order since November and why she would buy AR15 lowers instead of something complete if this was an unlawful transaction. I would also have her explain to them that is also not illegal for her to buy the long guns and gift them to people as it says so right on the 4473. Have her explain to them that she appreciates their due dilligence and understands why they are hesistant, but if she has been the only person in there and no one else has ever accompanied her there, where are they going to draw the line and deny a lawful sale to a paying customer because of their gender or age? Then if they are still not receptive have her ask them what she should do since all dealers should then technically deny her if they are doing exactly what ever other gun shop out there is doing?

Again, this is a tough one. I know you are upset, but this is not as cut and dry as you might think it is. Good luck.

JagerTroop
02-17-2009, 5:15 AM
Wes,

I appreciate your response, and can understand their concern for a straw purchase. She was in fact, the only one to come in the store on both occasions. She is completely aware of the laws regarding straw purchases, but, being one to abide by laws, couldn't understand their doubt. I know I'm beating a dead horse... I just needed to vent.

I don't do much business with AB since I moved, but I have over the year prior, spent a fair share of money. It's just frustrating that someone would ask"what are you going to do with these?"... WTF do you think I'm going to do... I'm going to hook them on my keychain... no wait. I'm going to make fishing lures out of them:rolleyes:

I'm sure, with the recent run on lowers, gunstore owners are seeing more unlikely customers. Why single her out? Because she didn't come in wearing BDUs and a Glock T-shirt? It's kinda funny... she has been a member of the NRA for about 10 years, but you would never know by looking at her.

PIRATE14
02-17-2009, 6:28 AM
HHMM...tough call...I'd have to be there and see what was said....

I do know the ATF was there recently on the standard audit, so they might a little more sensitive....

I also know the ATF is looking really hard at people who are buying more than 2-3 lowers at a time.....take that for what it's worth....

The ATF says some interesting things when they come by for a visit.....you'd really be amazed at what they want a FFL dealer to ask their customers about thier purchases....

savageevo
02-17-2009, 6:56 AM
So Pirate, The people that are buying 2-3 lowers, should they be concerned? Will they be visited by the atf or doj at anytime? I know a lot of people have bought multiple lowers because of this scare. Please inform us in what u know. Okay back to the OP topic.

12GAUGE
02-17-2009, 7:00 AM
Just to clarify, because I was scratching my head by the term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase

Hk996
02-17-2009, 7:10 AM
I've had issues with them on a few occasions... enough that I now do ALL my dros at riflegear.com even if its a farther drive for me.

Jonathan Doe
02-17-2009, 7:11 AM
She has enjoyed shooting my ARs (the few times she has) and wanted to build one for herself, and her husband.


Ammo Brothers was audited coupel week ago by ATF. If the lady said "I am buying one for me and one for my husband" without him present, then the store employee might have thought it was a straw purchase. I was not there and cannot comment about it. But possibility is there.

f-ponce
02-17-2009, 7:30 AM
PM sent to JagerTroop on behalf of AB

thanks,

Francisco

f-ponce
02-17-2009, 7:32 AM
tenpercent and pirate14, thanks for explaining the issues and complications of straw purchases.

5150Marcelo
02-17-2009, 7:41 AM
Sounds to me they shoulda asked these questions when the money was being exchanged. Its never a problem when money is in the picture. I think its BS that they sat on her money so long, and never had a problem untill she went to pick up the lowers. Oh well. Sounds like some BS they'd do anyhow. I was an Ammo Bros fan till recently and it took them 4-5 times of bad business to make me this way.

f-ponce, ive met you before at Ammo Bros and never had a negative experience with you there. Thanks for trying amigo.

laguns
02-17-2009, 8:21 AM
Sounds like AB had an ATF visit between the purchase and pickup and might be a bit more paranoid now. They are relatively new to the business so I doubt they have a spare $25,000 in the bank for legal fees. If there was a doubt, they needed to bunt.

The SoCal Gunner
02-17-2009, 8:28 AM
Ammo Brothers was audited coupel week ago by ATF. If the lady said "I am buying one for me and one for my husband" without him present, then the store employee might have thought it was a straw purchase. I was not there and cannot comment about it. But possibility is there.

Shouldn't be a problem because spouses can give firearms to each other.

JagerTroop
02-17-2009, 8:31 AM
PM sent to JagerTroop on behalf of AB

thanks,

Francisco

PM replied to. Francisco, thanks for your concern, and intervention.

maschronic
02-17-2009, 8:34 AM
i stopped going there for my ammo because i started to see some issues with the store. i noticed they sell uppers with parts removed and they would tell the customer that they have to buy it seperately. i thought that was messed up. i started to see this more and more, so i stopped giving my money to them.

USN CHIEF
02-17-2009, 8:41 AM
So should I put AM on my "Do not buy from list"? Waiting to hear from you JT.

Fate
02-17-2009, 8:52 AM
The ATF says some interesting things when they come by for a visit.....you'd really be amazed at what they want a FFL dealer to ask their customers about thier purchases....
Actually, we probably wouldn't be that amazed anymore. We're asked to voluntarily give up our 5th and 14th Amendment protections all too frequently these days.

aplinker
02-17-2009, 9:43 AM
It's nice to see this going in a good direction.

Thanks Wes and Hector for sounding off.

It's a tough call for them, Eli, and I can TOTALLY understand your anger - especially when it's at pick-up time. It just feels wrong to not ask the questions at the time of purchase. I understand they're in a tough place, but it seems like they should have done some better homework.

I've been seeing a lot more "hostile" attitudes lately in gun shops. I'm betting this is due to BATFE and DOJ leaning on them, but it doesn't justify it.

biscuitninja
02-17-2009, 9:50 AM
Small Claims.... ask for a 20% fee like most places do. Then take your money to Rifle Gear....
-bix

bigredhalf
02-17-2009, 9:53 AM
This is dustin at ammo brothers just to let you know i am the one who stoped the sale, when she told us that they were not for her but for her husbin. once she said that, i can not finnish the transaction. if we fill that the transaction is a straw purchases we will stop it.

bwiese
02-17-2009, 9:55 AM
AmmoBros has helped me do transfer and they seem like nice folks.

You have to understand that the looseness around straw purchase considerations - and the somewhat unusual '60 yr old mom' customer - may have raised hackles. THIS IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE KIND OF SCENARIO A 'TESTER' WOULD USE.

Also, a person buying an AR receiver would likely know a bit about ARs and other parts required and Moms may have not passed that test. Furthermore, there may have been concerns that Moms - should everything else be legit - might not know CA law and want to build the lowers up into illegal AW form.

I can understand the distress on both sides.

Capt. Speirs
02-17-2009, 10:28 AM
"In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. The first line on form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no in ink, in his or her own handwriting."

Wikipedia

This quote, if true, implies that the FFL is not responsible, nor can the FFL know what the intentions of the buyer are. So what am I missing here?

JagerTroop
02-17-2009, 10:37 AM
AmmoBros has helped me do transfer and they seem like nice folks.

You have to understand that the looseness around straw purchase considerations - and the somewhat unusual '60 yr old mom' customer - may have raised hackles. THIS IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE KIND OF SCENARIO A 'TESTER' WOULD USE.

Also, a person buying an AR receiver would likely know a bit about ARs and other parts required and Moms may have not passed that test. Furthermore, there may have been concerns that Moms - should everything else be legit - might not know CA law and want to build the lowers up into illegal AW form.
I can understand the distress on both sides.

In the past I have zero problems with AB.
.....
Shouldn't they then be concerned that ANYONE could possibly build them into an illegaly configured AW?

5150Marcelo
02-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Sounds like AB had an ATF visit between the purchase and pickup and might be a bit more paranoid now. They are relatively new to the business so I doubt they have a spare $25,000 in the bank for legal fees. If there was a doubt, they needed to bunt.

Naw, with their prices, im sure they got it.:thumbsup:

5150Marcelo
02-17-2009, 10:39 AM
So should I put AM on my "Do not buy from list"? Waiting to hear from you JT.

Hecha lo guey. I cut them from my "go to" list. Serio.

Jonathan Doe
02-17-2009, 10:46 AM
I have purchaded several items and did several PPTs at Ammo Brothers and they were very nice and took care of it well. I will definitely go back to them. I guess if they have concerns regrading their sale, they have a right to refuse the transaction.

JagerTroop
02-17-2009, 10:56 AM
This is dustin at ammo brothers just to let you know i am the one who stoped the sale, when she told us that they were not for her but for her husbin. once she said that, i can not finnish the transaction. if we fill that the transaction is a straw purchases we will stop it.

What she does with them when she takes ownership seems irrelevant. The "husbin" factor was only established upon an unprovoked verbal grilling. Do you ask all of your customers "what are these for?"... WTF do you think these are for? They ARE in fact, for her and her husband.
...I would also have her explain to them that is also not illegal for her to buy the long guns and gift them to people as it says so right on the 4473...
Is it illegal to purchase a gun for the purpose of co-user shooting? Have you ever picked up a gun with the intent of letting your girlfriend/wife/child shooting it? Does it change the fact that it's still yours? I understand you guys must deal with your share of straw purchases (due to your location) but it's not like she came in with someone else hand selecting items, then her doing the DROS. She, just like most, wants to get a few before they aren't available and/or banned (fyi - not paranoid, just prepared:D)

aileron
02-17-2009, 11:09 AM
Me Likem ammo bros. Never had a problem there. Good folks.

Sorry to hear some have had problems.

laguns
02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
I understand you guys must deal with your share of straw purchases (due to your location)

Yes, I did read somewhere that Bakersfield was the straw purchase capitol of the US. :)

Eric_Oh
02-17-2009, 12:27 PM
Sorry to hear that your mom had a difficult time at AB. Its distressing to know that a family member experienced a less pleasant transaction, that had you been there, would have probably gone over smoothly.

That being said, it seems like f-Ponce contacted you in hopes to square things away. Speaking from my own experience with AB, i've had only professional and curteous treatment by the AB staff. F-Ponce assisted me with a PPT on a subcompact XD that i purchased from a fellow calgunner. Even went the extra mile to help me out when i realized my hsc card was in my old wallet at home. He let me have the numbers read over the phone by my sister, and i walked it in when i picked up so that they could physically confirm later.

My buddy had some trouble with their reloads in .45 in his p220st, and at teh next gun show, Dustin immediately offered to resolve the problem by swapping out what we had left in our can for a new one.

I think we all agree that we don't have as many local OLL friendly FFL's as we'd like, and i've had a good expereince with this one. Hopefully JagerTroop will give AB the opportunity to EARN his business back.

JagerTroop
02-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Yes, I did read somewhere that Bakersfield was the straw purchase capitol of the US. :)

Ammo Bros is in Cerritos, on the Bellflower border. Think before you speak.

If you don't know the area, go and take a tour. You'll see what I mean.


ETA* upon rereading things, I think you misunderstood me. When you quoted me, I was responding to BigRed, not to Wes. I was only using 10%'s quote to prove my point.

Forgive me for jumping your s**t :)

Crusader
02-17-2009, 1:09 PM
The ATF is actually auditing them right now, so I could understand if they're on edge. But if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too.

Electric Factory
02-17-2009, 1:11 PM
Quick question- what differentiates a straw purchase from a gift ?

RedDawn
02-17-2009, 1:29 PM
I hear this alot at gunshops; "I'm buying it for my wife," or "I'm getting it for my daughter."

Why is it considered a straw purchase when a woman says, "I'm buying it for my husband."?

BONECUTTER
02-17-2009, 1:30 PM
Quick question- what differentiates a straw purchase from a gift ?

A straw purchase is when you are buying for someone who can't.

If its a gift they ussually come right out with it. "I'm getting these for my husbands B-day". If I were the clerk I would ask feeler questions to see if he is a shooter now of prohibited from owning firearms.

Straw purchases people tend to be evasive and not want to answer any questions. I have turned away my share.

I can see why people get pissed but come on. Were talking about firearms here not a pack of cigs going from the bum to the highschool kid.

Splinter
02-17-2009, 1:30 PM
This is dustin at ammo brothers just to let you know i am the one who stoped the sale, when she told us that they were not for her but for her husbin. once she said that, i can not finnish the transaction. if we fill that the transaction is a straw purchases we will stop it.

Wouldnt it be better to explain that she could own them, and purchase them for herself, and let her husband use them? Instead of just calling it a straw purchase and losing business? Did you even attempt to explain why, or what the law is? You interpreted her words. Im thinking you had other intentions with these back ordered lowers.
I will not go to ammo bros again after more than one employee called me stupid for thinking your reloads were too expensive at the time. Then, I was lied to about availability of reloading components. You guys should reevaluate your customer service. My bad experience cost you 7 potential deep pocket customers. The shooting community is very tight nit. Word spreads fast and far.

eta34
02-17-2009, 1:32 PM
What she does with them when she takes ownership seems irrelevant. The "husbin" factor was only established upon an unprovoked verbal grilling. Do you ask all of your customers "what are these for?"... WTF do you think these are for? They ARE in fact, for her and her husband.

Is it illegal to purchase a gun for the purpose of co-user shooting? Have you ever picked up a gun with the intent of letting your girlfriend/wife/child shooting it? Does it change the fact that it's still yours? I understand you guys must deal with your share of straw purchases (due to your location) but it's not like she came in with someone else hand selecting items, then her doing the DROS. She, just like most, wants to get a few before they aren't available and/or banned (fyi - not paranoid, just prepared:D)

Uh, no. What she does with them once she takes possession is completely relevant. Perhaps you should look at the definition of a straw purchase.

RedDawn
02-17-2009, 1:35 PM
The question should have been raised, if they thought it was a straw purchase, when the lowers were first ordered; and not when they finally came in 3 months later.

Uh, no. What she does with them once she takes possession is completely relevant. Perhaps you should look at the definition of a straw purchase.

BONECUTTER
02-17-2009, 1:36 PM
I hear this alot at gunshops; "I'm buying it for my wife," or "I'm getting it for my daughter."

Why is it considered a straw purchase when a woman says, "I'm buying it for my husband."?

Its not
You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.

I wasn't present but if she said there for me and later said husband it would throw up the straw purchase flags.

BONECUTTER
02-17-2009, 1:41 PM
The question should have been raised, if they thought it was a straw purchase, when the lowers were first ordered; and not when they finally came in 3 months later.

I've had a mother come in and pay for 4 lowers and 3 days later had her two sons come in and dros them.

geeknow
02-17-2009, 1:43 PM
I'm very dissappointed with them. In fact, they've lost a few loyal customers over this issue. Which is...

I get a call from my mother last night, saying that she was denied the purchase of a few lowers. She has enjoyed shooting my ARs (the few times she has) and wanted to build one for herself, and her husband. So, when the election scare hit, she asked me where to get one, fearing that they may be banned in the near future. I had since moved upstate, so I directed her to the closest place to her, which was Ammo Bros. I told her what to buy, and told her that I'd get her the rest of the components, and complete a rifle or 2 on my next trip down. She purchased 3 doublestar lowers back in early Nov. and has been waiting ever since.
About a week ago, she checked back (as she did about every 3 or 4 weeks) and they were in. They were prepaid, so as she completed her DROS, one of the guys comes out of the back, and asks" Are these your lowers?", she replied that they were. He then asked"What are you going to do with them?" She said that she was going to build them in to rifles. He then inquired, "What kind of rifles?".

WTF? What's with the 3rd degree? My 60 year old mother doesn't know much about guns, but does like to shoot. Is it a crime to stock up on a possibly "soon to be banned" item, without being an expert?

In short, she was denied sale, because the clerk felt it was a straw purchase. Obviously, they would be "family" rifles, for her and her husband. However, they were being purchased by her, and would remain in her possesion.

I'm upset with Ammo Bros, and am through with their BS.
A 3 month wait, completed paperwork, then treating a law abiding, taxpaying, gun owning, woman like a POS??

I know Ammo Bros. post on here... You guys F'ed up! You will never see another cent from me or my friends and family! I alone spend about $10k a year on guns, and it will never go to you.


Regards,
Eli

Eli,
Your account of the facts is not accurate. I was there that day and saw the exchange. Based upon what the lady said, they were required to stop the sale.

Sorry.

She volunteered that she was buying the lowers for her husband. The person doing the transaction stopped and went to one of the bosses and reported the comment. The boss came to the counter and asked her if she knew what she was buying. She did not. She started that exchange, not them. They apologized for the inconvenience, and explained that is considered a straw purchase. Then they offered to refund her $ or hold everything until her husband (the intended recipient per HER) had the opportunity to come and regester them properly. As I recall, she chose to have her CC refunded and said that she would be back with her husband at a later time. They did and all parted company. Nobody seemed upset. Everybody seemed to agree that it was indeed silly, but them's the rules.

3-month wait / hardly a vendors fault
completed paperwork / no
treating a person like a pos / false

You, sir are using the internet like a bludgeon to people that I consider friends. Your account of this incident is false as is your passing of judgement.

Nodda Duma
02-17-2009, 2:05 PM
Let me ask: If she had said "I am buying for my husband as a gift" Would that be ok? Since as I understand it, buying as a gift is not a straw purchase.

Also, if her husband had filled out the forms and he was in fact going to be the final possessor, yet she actually paid for it... Would that be ok as well?

-Jason

blackberg
02-17-2009, 2:12 PM
wouldnt it had been appropriate for AB to ask if her husband was prohibited from buying firearms? if he was was then its straw purchase, if not then its a gift, in my opinion...

eihter way, I rather drive 40 minutes to a different ffl and not drive 15 minutes to AB, they lost my business a while ago.

-bb

geeknow
02-17-2009, 2:14 PM
Let me ask: If she had said "I am buying for my husband as a gift" Would that be ok? Since as I understand it, buying as a gift is not a straw purchase.

Also, if her husband had filled out the forms and he was in fact going to be the final possessor, yet she actually paid for it... Would that be ok as well?

-Jason

Regarding the first question, maybe. If the buyer (wife) knows that there is a reason that husband cannot possess, then yes. Otherwise, no. Problem with this is that it does not matter. Once the FFL gets the feeling that the gun buyer is not going to be the actual recipient, the deal should end there and not move forward until the actual, intended recipient has filled out the paperwork in their own hand.

Regarding the second question, absolutely OK. In this case, the actual intended recipient would be the one filling out the paperwork.

regards,
g

RedDawn
02-17-2009, 3:30 PM
I've had a mother come in and pay for 4 lowers and 3 days later had her two sons come in and dros them.

Yes, and had the question been posed at time of purchase, she would have been educated that what she was doing constituted a straw purchase.

Nevertheless, the scenario the OP is speaking of is different. The 60 yr old woman placed a a backorder for AR lowers. And now three months later the same 60 yr old woman is told she cannot dros the lowers because she mentioned they are for her husband when the FFL inquires about the purpose of the lowers.

I've read the eyewitness account posted earlier of the scene that played out that day. What I'm perplexed by is why this same 60 yr old woman is now a suspect of a straw purchase, but she was not a straw purchase suspect when she placed the lowers on backorder.

hawk81
02-17-2009, 3:40 PM
It seems she might have grounds for a lawsuit, for discrimination.

RedDawn
02-17-2009, 3:46 PM
It seems she might have grounds for a lawsuit, for discrimination.

I wouldn't go that far.

Communication seemed to be the key here. The process wasn't communicated properly from the beginning and that is why there is a misunderstanding now.

geeknow
02-17-2009, 4:08 PM
I've read the eyewitness account posted earlier of the scene that played out that day. What I'm perplexed by is why this same 60 yr old woman is now a suspect of a straw purchase, but she was not a straw purchase suspect when she placed the lowers on backorder.

Because there was no DROS paperwork done at the time the lowers were placed on back order. Up until the point at which she declared that she was not the intended recipient, none had been specified one way or the other.

geeknow
02-17-2009, 4:10 PM
It seems she might have grounds for a lawsuit, for discrimination.

nah, not discrimination...defamation. she was treated the same as any other person would be who walked in to make a firearm purchase and declared that said firearms were not actually for her.

B.D.Dubloon
02-17-2009, 4:12 PM
It seems like ammo bros was just doing what they had to do. The OP really should have explained to his Mom the intricacies of gun purchasing in Cali. A 60 year old woman who doesn't seem to know anything about guns and is buying three lowers for someone else who is not there to do any paperwork sounds fishy, even though it may not have been. It sounds like they gave her the option of coming back with the husband and doing the paperwork, but she chose not to. Not the choice I would have made.

BDD

geeknow
02-17-2009, 4:15 PM
Yes, and had the question been posed at time of purchase, she would have been educated that what she was doing constituted a straw purchase.

Very true. Had she explained her situation, she could have been guided through the process in a manner that allowed her to transfer the firearms legally. But she did not. It is her responsibility to understand the laws regarding firearms if she chooses to purchase them.

I dont think its proper to put the transfer dealer in the position of grilling me about my purchases, why would I want him grilling my mom?

Rob454
02-17-2009, 6:27 PM
I get a call from my mother last night, saying that she was denied the purchase of a few lowers. .[/U][/B]


Regards,
Eli

Sorry dude a 60 year old woman coming in to get 3 lowers would make me suspicious also. Not saying older people cant buy lowers but a 60 year old woman buying THREE lowers is pretty unusual. Either way you mom could of simply said her son was helping her build them and wanted them in case of a ban. I feel for you but I can understand why AB didnt go through with the sale. Go back and explain to them or go somewhere else if you cant be satisfied by AB
I never had a problem at Ammo bros.

dawson8r
02-17-2009, 7:22 PM
I wanted to get my wife into shooting. She has small hands and my G17 felt too big for her. So I purchased a Sig239, a single stack 9mm, because it fits her hand and she can manipulate the controls. This being said, I did not go to the store and say "I am buying this for my wife." Instead, I told them I was looking for a 9mm that my wife would be able to shoot too since she has small hands. Subtle difference but enough for the sale to go through without a hitch.

tankerman
02-17-2009, 7:38 PM
This is dustin at ammo brothers just to let you know i am the one who stoped the sale, when she told us that they were not for her but for her husbin. once she said that, i can not finnish the transaction. if we fill that the transaction is a straw purchases we will stop it.Buying a gift for your "husbin"/wife is not against the law.

jimx
02-17-2009, 8:26 PM
Life is a circle. When you are 10 a parent needs to buy your guns. When you are 60 a child needs to buy your guns.

Vin496
02-17-2009, 8:35 PM
Buying a gift for your "husbin"/wife is not against the law.

LMAO :D

I can't believe the Grammar Nazi's didn't jump all over that post.


Now on to the subject, I can't blame them or for that matter any FFL being suspicious of a 60 year old woman coming in to buy 3 lowers. Let's be honest that reeks of something odd. I would even be suspicious of a 60 year old woman coming in and buying a complete AR.

I was in there today and they were still being audited and the guy was there, so there is a good chance someone was there when you Mom was there and they were just being extra cautious.

dg29
02-17-2009, 8:53 PM
Because there was no DROS paperwork done at the time the lowers were placed on back order. Up until the point at which she declared that she was not the intended recipient, none had been specified one way or the other.

So were they paid for in full and what was the price she had paid for each of them? When the sale was denied to her, were they then sold to another patron for that same price, or did one of the shops staff purchase them for that 3 month old price??

Kingofthehill
02-17-2009, 8:53 PM
I hear this alot at gunshops; "I'm buying it for my wife," or "I'm getting it for my daughter."

Why is it considered a straw purchase when a woman says, "I'm buying it for my husband."?


Wondering the same thing... I have purchased 2 guns for my g/f... they stay locked in my safe but when we go shooting, its her gun.

Id laugh straight in their face if someone said I couldn't purchase them because they were not for MINE and only MY use.

JOe

hnoppenberger
02-17-2009, 9:00 PM
as much as i hate to back up the store, she was about to commite a felony

she was buying firearms for other people. that is a crime. they did what they had to do...

bplvr
02-17-2009, 9:02 PM
AmmoBros has helped me do transfer and they seem like nice folks.

You have to understand that the looseness around straw purchase considerations - and the somewhat unusual '60 yr old mom' customer - may have raised hackles. THIS IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE KIND OF SCENARIO A 'TESTER' WOULD USE.

Also, a person buying an AR receiver would likely know a bit about ARs and other parts required and Moms may have not passed that test. Furthermore, there may have been concerns that Moms - should everything else be legit - might not know CA law and want to build the lowers up into illegal AW form.

I can understand the distress on both sides.


My wife is 59 and she did the paperrwork tonite for a .223 OLL build.
We may be old farts but we are 2A diligent. She got a 12 Ga. for X-mas and broke the first clay out of the trap.
Her .223 'mouse' will be a lot of fun.

RedDawn
02-17-2009, 9:06 PM
So were they paid for in full and what was the price she had paid for each of them? When the sale was denied to her, were they then sold to another patron for that same price, or did one of the shops staff purchase them for that 3 month old price??

Good question. Ethically, the shop employees should not have a chance to buy the lowers at the 3 month old price as that creates a conflict of interest.

tenpercentfirearms
02-17-2009, 9:18 PM
I remember doing research on this before and here is a pretty thorough examination of this issue. Although it sucks, Ammo Bros actually was within their right and possible obligation in this situation. It is just sad all the way around. :(

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1133423&postcount=26

Kingofthehill
02-17-2009, 9:20 PM
Good question. Ethically, the shop employees should not have a chance to buy the lowers at the 3 month old price as that creates a conflict of interest.

Intresting :eek:

The SoCal Gunner
02-17-2009, 9:21 PM
as much as i hate to back up the store, she was about to commite a felony

she was buying firearms for other people. that is a crime. they did what they had to do...

What crime?

My gf bought me a gun for my bday and we transferred it after she picked it up. She could have paid and had me do the DROS but she wanted to surprise me. She doesn't know much about guns except from what I tell her. All she remembered was that I had been looking into a Glock 36.

Husbands and wives can give each other guns and just send in the paper work. No PPT needed.

I remember being in Turners when a lady was buying a shotgun for her husband. She didn't get any crap from the salesman. Salesman told her exactly what they needed to do to stay legal and while the lady didn't know much about guns she knew what her husband wanted.

ke6guj
02-17-2009, 9:22 PM
So were they paid for in full and what was the price she had paid for each of them? When the sale was denied to her, were they then sold to another patron for that same price, or did one of the shops staff purchase them for that 3 month old price??

she was offered the opportunity to have her husband come in and do the DROS. She elected to take the refund instead. I think once she took the refund, she released her interest in them.

as much as i hate to back up the store, she was about to commite a felony

she was buying firearms for other people. that is a crime. they did what they had to do...No she wasn't. It is not illegal to buy firearms with the intent to give them away as a gift. It specifically states that right on the 4473. If the buyer spends her money to buy them, it is a gift. She is legally allowed to then give them away. If she is giving them to someone like her husband, or a child or grandchild, she can do that legally with not paperwork required. It is an intrafamily transfer.

Now, if she wanted to give it to someone else, that too is legal, provided they do a PPT transfer to the recipient, when she gives it to that person.

For instance, I could go buy a couple firearms right now on sale and pick them up after ten days. I could them put them in my safe and then, at Christmas time, give them as gifts to friends and family. I'd be sure to do whatever was needed to legally transfer them, PPT to friends, oplaw form if handgun to my dad, or just say "merry christmas" as I hand him a new rifle.

edit: be sure to read 10%'s link to his other post. It has all the info there. The problem is that the line between "gifts" and "straw purchases" is blurred, and one man's gift could be another man's straw purchase.

dg29
02-17-2009, 9:28 PM
Good question. Ethically, the shop employees should not have a chance to buy the lowers at the 3 month old price as that creates a conflict of interest.

Well I may be off topic, but I'm curious in an honest answer as to what transpired with the three lowers after she left.

dg29
02-17-2009, 9:35 PM
she was offered the opportunity to have her husband come in and do the DROS. She elected to take the refund instead. I think once she took the refund, she released her interest in them."

So please tell us what then transpired with the stripped lowers. Were they sold "in house" or sold to the next available purchaser for the old price?

ArkinDomino
02-17-2009, 9:39 PM
This is dustin at ammo brothers just to let you know i am the one who stoped the sale, when she told us that they were not for her but for her husbin. once she said that, i can not finnish the transaction. if we fill that the transaction is a straw purchases we will stop it.

:shrug:

5150Marcelo
02-17-2009, 9:41 PM
This is dustin at ammo brothers just to let you know i am the one who stoped the sale, when she told us that they were not for her but for her husbin. once she said that, i can not finnish the transaction. if we fill that the transaction is a straw purchases we will stop it.

WTF??? Is this Frijolito? Spelling is the same:confused::p

devildog999
02-17-2009, 9:46 PM
That blows! Could she go back in with your dad to show they are for the two of them? Or is is basically a done deal?

titan
02-17-2009, 9:52 PM
Isn't a straw purchase when somebody purchases a gun for another person who can't legally purchase it? If the husband could legally purchase what's the issue?

Example, Guy in a store picking up some ammo, sees a pistol (hard to find) in stock that his friend has been looking. He calls his friend who is out of town and says guess what I found. Is it a straw purchase for this person to purchase the pistol only to sell it and transfer it to his friend via PPT at a later date, his friend is legally able to purchase.

Example #2 same situation but the out of town friend has a felony preventing him from getting it on his own and there will be no legal transfer. I thought this example is the "straw purchase"?

This seems sort of like what's happening above, or perhaps I am just seeing this the wrong way, I am not an atty ; ) Too bad it made difficult situation for everyone involved.

ke6guj
02-17-2009, 9:52 PM
So please tell us what then transpired with the stripped lowers. Were they sold "in house" or sold to the next available purchaser for the old price?I don't know. I'm just going by what was said in earlier posts. If she voluntarily released her interest in the lowers, instead of having her husband come in and do the DROS, then its doesn't matter what Ammo Bros did with the lowers. And yes, I understand that it may have been difficult for her husband to come in to do the DROS and then do the pickup 10-days later.

dartbrandx
02-17-2009, 9:59 PM
What happened to the three lowers then?

ke6guj
02-17-2009, 10:10 PM
What happened to the three lowers then?I'd assume that after they refunded the OP's money, they were then considered inventory. They did what ever they wanted to do with them. Sold them, kept them, returned them to the distributor/manufacturer, whatever. They belonged to Ammo Bros. at that point, so it doesn't really matter.





Jager, was there any reason your father could not come in and DROS them? that option was offered to your mother, per geeknow. Per geeknow , your mother took the refund and said she'd be back with your father at another time. Unfortunately, the option she took looks like she sold back her interest in the lowers back to Ammo Bros, whereas, if she had them hold onto them while your father came in, then they'd still belong to your parents.

ke6guj
02-17-2009, 10:16 PM
Isn't a straw purchase when somebody purchases a gun for another person who can't legally purchase it? If the husband could legally purchase what's the issue?

Example, Guy in a store picking up some ammo, sees a pistol (hard to find) in stock that his friend has been looking. He calls his friend who is out of town and says guess what I found. Is it a straw purchase for this person to purchase the pistol only to sell it and transfer it to his friend via PPT at a later date, his friend is legally able to purchase.

Example #2 same situation but the out of town friend has a felony preventing him from getting it on his own and there will be no legal transfer. I thought this example is the "straw purchase"? correct, example 1 would be a legal transaction, whereas example 2 would be an illegal transaction. However, both examples, to the clerk on the other side of the counter, look very similar. To a clerk that may have been told that the ATF and DOJ like to entrap dealers with straw sales, it may have been too close an issue for them to accept. Expecially if they were actually being audited at the time, or had just completed an audit.


IIRC, ATF tells dealers, if the sales feels funny, decline it. That looks lke what Ammo Bros did. Sucks for Jager's mother that she got caught up in it.

the dealer is in bind no matter what he does in this situation. If he's not carefull, he may get bitten with a straw purchase, maybe with an undercover agent. If he's extra carefull lookiing for straw purchases, he may turn away some "hinky" legal sales.

jasilva
02-17-2009, 10:26 PM
I don't know. I'm just going by what was said in earlier posts. If she voluntarily released her interest in the lowers, instead of having her husband come in and do the DROS, then its doesn't matter what Ammo Bros did with the lowers. And yes, I understand that it may have been difficult for her husband to come in to do the DROS and then do the pickup 10-days later.


She released her interest because she wasn't given any other option. As far as this being a straw purchase, Dustin needs to learn the law.

Here's the quote from Tenpercent's other thread. This is taken directly from the BATF website.

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment) . You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 12a.

It ain't rocket science, pretty straightforward explanation. If mom said she was buying it for her husband it's an F'n GIFT. No doubt Dustin or someone else at AB picked up a couple/three lowers at last years discounted price as soon as mom left the store.

Say what you will this deal smells bad.

ke6guj
02-17-2009, 10:36 PM
She released her interest because she wasn't given any other option. I can only go by what was mentioned inthe thread. geeknow mentioned that she was offered the option of having the husband come in and do the DROS. Now, I don't know if that was a realistic option in that he would be able to come in to do the DROS and pickup.

As far as this being a straw purchase, Dustin needs to learn the law.

Here's the quote from Tenpercent's other thread. This is taken directly from the BATF website.

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment) . You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 12a.

It ain't rocket science, pretty straightforward explanation. If mom said she was buying it for her husband it's an F'n GIFT.
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a straw purchase, and yes, Ammo Bros would be better served to be able to explain tht it wasnt a straw purchase. but with Jager's mom not being firearms literate, she was unable to stand up for her legal right to do the sale, with the intent to do a legal gift later, and it really isn't a gift since they would be community property with her and her husband.

No doubt Dustin or someone else at AB picked up a couple/three lowers at last years discounted price as soon as mom left the store.

Say what you will this deal smells bad.are you saying that Ammo Bros purposely squashed the deal in order to snake the lowers from Jager's mom? We're not even sure what price she paid for them. Hopefully an early-Nov order would not have seen much post-Obama markup at the time. And we are starting to see a reduction in the initial "price gouging", so there may or may not be a significant price difference.

jasilva
02-17-2009, 10:47 PM
are you saying that Ammo Bros purposely squashed the deal in order to snake the lowers from Jager's mom? We're not even sure what price she paid for them. Hopefully an early-Nov order would not have seen much post-Obama markup at the time. And we are starting to see a reduction in the initial "price gouging", so there may or may not be a significant price difference.

I was just stating what it looked like and smelled like to me. I might be wrong but I've gotta go with the nose until someone shows why it's not the turd it smells like.

ke6guj
02-17-2009, 11:01 PM
All I can go by, since I am not an 01FFL, and do not have to worry about straw purchase stings, is that both 10% and CWS both said that from what they read, they would be suspicious. One thing we often hear regarding straw purchases is that a woman will come in looking for a particular firearm, but have no knowledge about it. Due to the fact that the boyfriend/husband/son/etc told her what to buy because he couldn't.


It is unfortunate that Jager's mom's purchase triggered Ammo Bros' straw purchase alarm. But until someone shows me that they 86'ed her inorder to snake some $100 receivers, I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt.

And remember, per geekshow, they did give them the option of having the husband come in to do the DROS, which would have removed any straw purchase concerns tht Ammo Bros had. Now, I don't know if that option was not a possibility for Jager's parents.



Remember, they were just audited, so they have that in the back of thier mind as well.

becxltoo984
02-17-2009, 11:13 PM
This is what a FFL wants to hear from you . Yes im buying these Firearms for myself and using my own monies !;)

JagerTroop
02-18-2009, 3:31 AM
This is what a FFL wants to hear from you . Yes im buying these Firearms for myself and using my own monies !;)

To be clear, it wasn't that simple...

She was asked,
"what are you going to do with these?"
I'm going to build them"
"Build them into what?"
Rifles
"what kind of rifles?"

Really? A game of 20 questions?

Look, I can't change AB's actions. All I can do is review them. I have made my decission, but will not tell anyone not to shop there. It's up to you to decide for yourself. I also read a comment on a "lawsuit". NEVER. As much as I loathe them, I don't want to see them go under. We need as many black rifle friendly gun shops as we can get. As much as I am dissatisfied, there seems to be plenty of people whom are happy with their service. This went bad for all involved, and all I can really do is vote with my money (I'm sure my family will do the same) and shop somewhere else.

I don't think this is the case, but, if this was an attempt by AB to "score" a few lowers... for shame:(

As far a the comment about an uneducated gun owner wanting 3 lowers... everyone wants to get their hands on these. People are afraid they won't be able to get them later. At a local shop, just last month, I saw 2 "nieve" guys each buy complete ARs. They were not questioned "why do you want these?".

I'm not going to cry 'discrimination', as AB is free to sell as they please. With their apparant ATF audit, I think they got jumpy... whatever. It's done, and that's it.

dg29
02-18-2009, 5:09 AM
I don't know. I'm just going by what was said in earlier posts. If she voluntarily released her interest in the lowers, instead of having her husband come in and do the DROS, then its doesn't matter what Ammo Bros did with the lowers. And yes, I understand that it may have been difficult for her husband to come in to do the DROS and then do the pickup 10-days later.

Thanks for your insight.....but I wanted to know exactly what had happened to those three lowers after she left the store. So now I'll take a shot at it and guess as to the mystery. I've got a 50/50 shot here so I'm guessing that they either went shop employees, or were put up for sale with a price increase of at least $100.00 each. So yes they have the option........but IMO there's a reason that some of the vendors in socal liken themselves to :Pirate:'S I've seen it first hand and is goes beyond free market system of capitalism to the far end of the scale of greed.

tenpercentfirearms
02-18-2009, 5:44 AM
Thanks for your insight.....but I wanted to know exactly what had happened to those three lowers after she left the store. So now I'll take a shot at it and guess as to the mystery. I've got a 50/50 shot here so I'm guessing that they either went shop employees, or were put up for sale with a price increase of at least $100.00 each. So yes they have the option........but IMO there's a reason that some of the vendors in socal liken themselves to :Pirate:'S I've seen it first hand and is goes beyond free market system of capitalism to the far end of the scale of greed.

WTF? Why are you blood thirsty sharks so such a damn hurry to make AB look like some dirty dishonest salesman? None of you were there, none of you know what happened for sure, and all you can do is speculate that they are all crooked and they did this for their own profit. Fools.

It has been explained to you, if it even seems like a straw purchase, gun dealers are encouraged to deny the purchase with failure to do so being a risk to their shop and their livelihood. For those of you who missed my link, I better quote it here for you.

I personally don't care if a grandma buys a gun for her grandson or if a wife buys a gun for her husband. They can lawfully take possession of the firearm and turn around and give it to the relative with no paperwork required for long guns and with the Operation of Law or Intrafamilial Handgun Transaction Report for handguns.

If a wife buys it for her husband and she says, "I am buying it for my husband." That means to me that she is gifting it. If she answers yes the firearm is for her on the 4473 then that is on her. Should I create an additional form that states this firearm is for them and not for someone else and/or that if the firearm is a gift, they are declaring it right now so I can't be set up for a straw purchase? That is silly.

People can lawfully buy guns as gifts for their immediate blood line relatives and for spouses. If the ATF or DOJ wants to challenge me on that, then let’s go to court and see what the courts say.

Oh wait, I already found what the courts say.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_dollar.txt

The term "straw purchase" is not defined in either the United
States Code or the Code of Federal Regulations. It is in fact a
judicially created doctrine, a construction of one of the
provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. section
922(a)(6). [footnote 3] See United States v. Moore, 84 F.3d 1567,
1573 (9th Cir. 1996).

However, later in this case I find out this.

Language was added to require a declaration from the person
who completes the form that he/she is the actual buyer, and to
include a warning consistent with the new definition of straw
purchase. See Polk, 118 F.3d at 295 n. 8.

Obviously, this 1995 change in the regulations cannot apply,
ex post facto, to the 1990-1994 activities of the Dollars.


So this case doesn't do me a lot of good. So lets look at the 4473 itself.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/index.htm (note this is an old version, but I will confirm if the new version's question 11a is any different than this version's question 12a)

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)


http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm

Important Notices

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment) . You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 12a.

So in reference to this case, it depends on the exact language you used in the e-mail. If you asked if your wife could come down and DROS it, the dealer just as easily could have said yes. Since you are husband and wife, are you going to tell me the ATF has a legal case when a couple comes into the gun shop to buy a gun, the husband fills out the 4473 and the wife writes the check out of their check book? Is that a straw purchase?

Second of all, this example wouldn't even apply since it appears you ordered the lower elsewhere and the dealer has no way of knowing who actually paid for the firearm. Your wife might have paid for it and so she could lawfully come down and DROS it.

As was clearly stated in the 4473 instructions. Your wife can lawfully answer yes to question 12a (now 11a) if she is purchasing it as a legitimate gift for you.

Honestly, this whole episode demonstrates two things.

#1: The laws are not clear and quite gray.

#2: Don't volunteer information to your gun dealer. The less they know the better.

Me personally, as long as I know the lower is going to be lawfully purchased and transferred within the family, I am not going to assume it is a straw purchase, but assume everything is a gift.

On the flip side, the law states you can buy firearms as a gift with your own money and DROS them. What about in the case of handguns, where you don't want to pay the extra $19 for the op law form and you would rather pay for the gift with your money and simply have the recipient do the DROS?

Question 12a (11a) asks, "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring firearm(s) on behalf of another person." If my dad buys me a handgun, what is the definition of a buyer? I didn't pay for it, but I am not acquiring it on behalf of another person either.

At the same time, if someone were to buy a handgun for you as a gift, when you go in to fill out the 4473 on the PPT and it asks if you are the actual buyer, again, what should you answer? It wasn't your money, but you are not acquiring it for someone else?

Again, my conclusion is this entire thing is stupid and I am just going to use common sense. Husbands can buy all the guns they want for their wives, children, grandchildren, and vice versa. I am just going to use common sense for once. If I end up going to court over it, then you guys can contribute to my legal fund and we will get this question answered in court once and for all.

If all she stated is she was buying it for her husband, then she is not the actual buyer of the firearm according to question 11a. If she stated she was buying it as a legitimate gift for her husband, then she is not a straw purchase.

If I were AB and I worked in Los Angeles where they do, I would be very careful about this. Buyers need to be very aware of how they talk in a gun shop because if they say anything out of line, they very well could be denied the sale.

For you guys to start your feeding frenzy trying to guess AB's true motivations is pretty sickening if you ask me, especially when she was given the option to have the husband come in.

Again threads like these and like the DD's Ranch thread are the reason some dealers hate this place. You guys have nothing better to do than just slam a business owner's name out of nothing more than your own ignorance or vicious desires.

I hope for most of you that this thread is an education on how sensitive the straw purchase topic is in a gun shop and how you will be careful and not blur the line while you are in there. The less I know about what you are doing with your guns, the better.

tankerman
02-18-2009, 5:53 AM
Since you are such the "Internet Laywer", why not back that up with some facts?

You're sure it's a felony, so provide exact references please.

During a divorce, try telling the judge that the house is your house cause you paid for it, and the car is your car cause you paid for it.......property is shared, when you're married.

as much as i hate to back up the store, she was about to commite a felony

she was buying firearms for other people. that is a crime. they did what they had to do...

tankerman
02-18-2009, 6:02 AM
I suggest all CGN members ONLY speak nicely of all gun store owners, all the time. Tell them how great and brave they are and never, ever make any negative comments about, price gouging, poor customer service, false advertising, abusive attitudes or bad/wrong product information.

I have yet to see you agree or even suggest that a buyer's/customer's comments may be valid involving a claim about poor service at any gun shop, but you sure have jumped on anyone making negative comments.:rolleyes:

Again threads like these and like the DD's Ranch thread are the reason some dealers hate this place. You guys have nothing better to do than just slam a business owner's name out of nothing more than your own ignorance or vicious desires.

DJMAN
02-18-2009, 6:15 AM
I suggest all CGN members ONLY speak nicely of all gun store owners, all the time. Tell them how great and brave they are and never, ever make any negative comments about, price gouging, poor customer service, false advertising, abusive attitudes or bad/wrong product information.

I have yet to see you agree or even suggest that a buyer's/customer's comments may be valid involving a claim about poor service at any gun shop, but you sure have jumped on anyone making negative comments.:rolleyes:


I guess it's us against them, thinking.:confused:

cannon
02-18-2009, 6:47 AM
From my reading of this thread it appears that AB paused the sale after questioning Mom.

They then offered Mom the option of having Dad come in and DROS or refunding the money.

Mom opted for the refund.

Was AB a bit paranoid? Probably but they do have a business to lose and they gave Mom a way to save the sale. She chose to end the sale by requesting a refund.

I don't blame Mom, Dad or Son for being irked but again Mom opted for a refund so at that point the deal was over by Moms choice and the receivers were ABs problem and probably went into inventory.

tankerman
02-18-2009, 7:13 AM
I read this as 60 year old treated like criminal by employee and said forget it, don't want to be treated this way, take your receivers back.

There are several ways to have a discussion, one being; like a grown up and involving facts and diplomacy, another way would be to take an accusatory tone, throw in some FUD and half-truths and alienate the customer.

Now reread the employee's post and try to glean a bit of info and insight from his post. For me that post says a lot about the maturity level.

Was AB a bit paranoid? Probably but they do have a business to lose and they gave Mom a way to save the sale. She chose to end the sale by requesting a refund.

I don't blame Mom, Dad or Son for being irked but again Mom opted for a refund so at that point the deal was over by Moms choice and the receivers were ABs problem and probably went into inventory.

geeknow
02-18-2009, 7:42 AM
So were they paid for in full and what was the price she had paid for each of them? When the sale was denied to her, were they then sold to another patron for that same price, or did one of the shops staff purchase them for that 3 month old price??

What exactly are you insinuating? If it is what it sounds like, you had better come to the table with hard proof. If this is NOT what it sounds like, then I would appreciate you clarifying your statement.

dg29
02-18-2009, 7:52 AM
Yar seems a wee bit testy with yer WTF post. My bad, you meant waste of time frankly.

geeknow
02-18-2009, 7:54 AM
I suggest all CGN members ONLY speak nicely of all gun store owners, all the time. Tell them how great and brave they are and never, ever make any negative comments about, price gouging, poor customer service, false advertising, abusive attitudes or bad/wrong product information.

Well, that would at least make it fair. After all, that is how they are forced to behave.

How about this? Want to slam all of these guys here on the internet? Maybe we should all start using our real names to do so. That way, when we go into the store and try to work a deal with them, they will be able to tell who they are dealing with. What do you say? I will be first.

dg29
02-18-2009, 8:00 AM
What exactly are you insinuating? If it is what it sounds like, you had better come to the table with hard proof. If this is NOT what it sounds like, then I would appreciate you clarifying your statement.

Were the receivers sold to the next available person, or persons in line for the same price that the 60 year old mother had purchased them for or were they sold for the current market value once they were taken back into inventory :confused: I'm just curious how it worked out.

geeknow
02-18-2009, 8:04 AM
Yar seems a wee bit testy with yer WTF post. Pirates, sharks, planks...I mean registers:chris: I have no dog in this fight just a sneeky suspicion that it wasn't a lose lose all the way around. So take your tone and WTF and well..... STFU.
:) Have a nice day!

Who is being testy? Certainly you must realize that people's lively-hoods are damaged by rumors of the ilk as that which you have begun. What do you think is going on here? You come here, completely make up a non-existent scenario that could very well damage this company, and shrug it off with a snotty "if it smells like a turd, i call it a turd until I am proved otherwise" attitude. Then you follow that up with a cavalier STFU? Fine, I will, as nothing seems to be gained by reasoning with you. Remember this though, you are a big boy. You are responsible for your actions. You had better be damn sure of what you put in print.

socomIInato
02-18-2009, 8:11 AM
firearm purchase is a business transaction! it`s for me and fill out paperwork, pay business. kiss principle works great.

tankerman
02-18-2009, 8:26 AM
There are no protected groups.

I have refrained from "slamming" or even openly discussing several 'senior members' and their gun shop antics, flaking on deals, incorrect recordkeeping, etc....All because I know what kind of a response there would be. As a matter of fact I know many other CGN members that keep their mouth shut about these issues for the same reason.

Are you tyring to intimidate people into not telling anyone about their bad experiences at gunshops? Because it sure sounds that way.

If you want to know who I am and what I look like, lets meet. Sound fair bro? I attend CGN events, people know who I am, that includes shop owners.

And FYI. I don't try and swing deals, I pay retail.
Well, that would at least make it fair. After all, that is how they are forced to behave.

How about this? Want to slam all of these guys here on the internet? Maybe we should all start using our real names to do so. That way, when we go into the store and try to work a deal with them, they will be able to tell who they are dealing with. What do you say? I will be first.

JagerTroop
02-18-2009, 8:31 AM
firearm purchase is a business transaction! it`s for me and fill out paperwork, pay business. kiss principle works great.

I agree. However, this was not the case. No mention of "husband" was made, until after DROS form, fingerprint, etc. was completed. After the initial transaction was completed a different sales guy (not directly involved in the transaction) butted in and started the 3rd degree... "why do you want these?", etc. Her intentions were questioned 3 times before any mention of her husband.

There was no hint of a possible straw purchase, unless you consider her demographic (age and gender) to be a trigger.

So what I've learned is, when shopping at Ammo Bros, if you don't look like a gun enthousiast, or know little/nothing about a particular gun, expect to be interogated as to your intentions for use of said firearm.

JagerTroop
02-18-2009, 8:37 AM
How about this? Want to slam all of these guys here on the internet? Maybe we should all start using our real names to do so. That way, when we go into the store and try to work a deal with them, they will be able to tell who they are dealing with. What do you say? I will be first.


I have no problem with that. My name's Eli. Several of you know who I am from meets, shoots, and trades/sales in person. I have nothing to hide.

geeknow
02-18-2009, 8:51 AM
Are you tyring to intimidate people into not telling anyone about their bad experiences at gunshops? Because it sure sounds that way.

If you want to know who I am and what I look like, lets meet. Sound fair bro?



In response to your first question, No. My concerns have been focused on 2 issues.

1. Incorrect reporting of the details of the incident.
2. Untrue suppositions put forth.

I have vigorously defended the truth and have been an advocate of the same. If it is TRUE, report it. If it is NOT, dont. But do not put forth, in writing, that which you know not to be true. Simple.

In response to your second question, I could care less. What you "look" like matters not to me. Who you are matters less. My point, which apparently escaped you, was that we should be held to the same behavior standard as the vendors are held, and suggested all be held accountable for their words. Hardly a revolutionary thought. Further, I volunteered to lead by example.

Finally, I got a big belly laugh from the mere fact that your post began by chastising me for "intimidating" people, and ended with a thinly veiled threat by you asking to "meet".

Lets be clear. Do not now, or at any point in the future, threaten me.

Jonathan Doe
02-18-2009, 9:04 AM
It seems to me that this thread is going to end up in a personal attack/ fight. All the other liberals/democrats/ whoever will read this thread and laugh at the gun people and laugh their butts off.

jasilva
02-18-2009, 9:13 AM
Who is being testy? Certainly you must realize that people's lively-hoods are damaged by rumors of the ilk as that which you have begun. What do you think is going on here? You come here, completely make up a non-existent scenario that could very well damage this company, and shrug it off with a snotty "if it smells like a turd, i call it a turd until I am proved otherwise" attitude. Then you follow that up with a cavalier STFU? Fine, I will, as nothing seems to be gained by reasoning with you. Remember this though, you are a big boy. You are responsible for your actions. You had better be damn sure of what you put in print.

Actually that was me with that attitude, and my name is on every one of my posts.

Capt. Speirs
02-18-2009, 9:39 AM
I hear this alot at gunshops; "I'm buying it for my wife," or "I'm getting it for my daughter."

Why is it considered a straw purchase when a woman says, "I'm buying it for my husband."?

I bought a lower for my son, told the shop what I was doing, it was for his college graduation, no problem.

PIRATE14
02-18-2009, 10:13 AM
DAMN.....internet DRAMA and I am not involved....;)

Well...I can't say too much on the subject cause, I always end up as a witness for the GOV'T....

FFLs are licensed as AGENTs for the GOV'T to TRANSFER a weapon to the PEOPLE...

As long as you abide by the laws...you will fine....some of the laws are not always clearcut....so, know what you are doing....if not, get a lawyer...

Will the gov't pay you a visit....maybe, but they are pretty busy...



So Pirate, The people that are buying 2-3 lowers, should they be concerned? Will they be visited by the atf or doj at anytime? I know a lot of people have bought multiple lowers because of this scare. Please inform us in what u know. Okay back to the OP topic.

tankerman
02-18-2009, 11:22 AM
Finally, I got a big belly laugh from the mere fact that your post began by chastising me for "intimidating" people, and ended with a thinly veiled threat by you asking to "meet".

Lets be clear. Do not now, or at any point in the future, threaten me.:willy_nilly::willy_nilly::willy_nilly: Are you done ranting and raving now?
I made no "thinly veiled threat". You asked everyone to "out themselves" for your personal gratification. Last time I checked, users of this forum had a choice of picking a username or using their real, the former allows people privacy and anonymity. Many people choose to remain anonymous. I will be happy to let you know who I am, in person, but I will not broadcast it on an internet forum, just because it's what you say I should do. If you don't like that, then too bad.

Greg-Dawg
02-18-2009, 11:30 AM
http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/IBTL/1/IBTL-Crocodile.jpg

RedDawn
02-18-2009, 3:04 PM
http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/IBTL/1/IBTL-Crocodile.jpg

:rofl2:

NRAhighpowershooter
02-18-2009, 3:26 PM
Locking this one up tight.........