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JimAmentler
02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
H.B. 204 Bill Documents - 2009 General Session

House Bill 204 Concealed Firearms Instructors Ammendments --Oda, C.

This legislation is being put forth by Rep. Curt Oda and supported by W. Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, both of whom are Utah CCW permit instructors. W. Clark Aposhian regularly travels to CA to run classes at gun shows. The assertion is that there is no oversight for out of state instructors and that some states are ready to drop reciprocity or recognition of the Utah permit.

I have thought about this for the past several days. I am an out of state instructor. My classes run 4-5 hours long to get all of the material covered that I have to pass to my students. I cover the material thoroughly as required by Utah BCI and also as required by me as I want my students to have as much info as I can give them. Compare that to W. Clark Aposhian's 2 hour gun show class. He is a Utah resident and a Utah instructor. Does he cover the material thoroughly? I cannot answer that question as I have not spent the $250 to take his course. I do know that I would not be able to fully cover the curriculum in 2 hours.

Then I thought about the oversight issue. If, as suggested by Mr. Aposhian, Utah BCI can not properly keep oversight on out of state instructors, how are they going to keep oversight on instructors who travel to another state from Utah to run a course? What is to keep a Utah "resident" instructor from rubber stamping a students application?

Florida allows out of state instructors to qualify students, but there is no word from Florida that other states are looking to drop reciprocity or recognition. The Florida permit is good in every state but two that the Utah permit is honored. There has also been no word, NONE, of which states are threatening to drop Utah from their reciprocity or recognition list.

What states are threatening to drop reciprocity or recognition? Why is this not happening in Florida as well? Most importantly, what is the REAL reason for this bill?

This bill is scheduled to be heard by the House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee at 8:00 AM on Feb. 18th.

I encourage all of you to write to the Utah legislators and ask them to kill this bill.

Here is a list of members of Utah House of Representatives contact info:

Utah House of Representatives (http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members2005/membertable2add.asp)

redneckshootist
02-17-2009, 1:42 AM
if it makes it to the senate. I'll call my uncle and see what he can do to help kill this bill.

dfletcher
02-17-2009, 7:44 AM
Short version - they state they want to keep the training "in house" because some states have threatened to pull reciprocity, correct?

If Clark teaches a course does more or less (or the same) amount of $$$ go to the state? Do out of state teachers bring in $$$ that would otherwise not come into the state?

The Utah nonresident CCW seems like a very successful program and I'm not surprised they want to protect it, if that's the case - and I presume there's a money motive also.

deleted by PC police
02-17-2009, 8:11 AM
I think the reason they want to kill it is because it's killing BCI. Last I heard giving ccw's to out of state residents is a huge burden on the system. By law they have 60 days to give you your ccw if you meet all the requirements once you apply and it's taking them 45+ days right now. Since Obama got elected people are taking ccw classes like crazy so I imagine things are worse now.

mblat
02-17-2009, 8:13 AM
I think the reason they want to kill it is because it's killing BCI. Last I heard giving ccw's to out of state residents is a huge burden on the system. By law they have 60 days to give you your ccw if you meet all the requirements once you apply and it's taking them 45+ days right now. Since Obama got elected people are taking ccw classes like crazy so I imagine things are worse now.

Hmmmm..... So charge an extra $10 for out state residents. That will allow to hire one more person into that department to deal with the permits.
Everybody wins.
A person gets job.
Utah will get taxes.
We still get our permits.

deleted by PC police
02-17-2009, 8:18 AM
Hmmmm..... So charge an extra $10 for out state residents. That will allow to hire one more person into that department to deal with the permits.
Everybody wins.
A person gets job.
Utah will get taxes.
We still get our permits.

I'm with ya.

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 8:34 AM
Why wouldnt Utah just limit the CCWs to Utah residents and elimate the percived problem all together?

Glock22Fan
02-17-2009, 9:01 AM
Why wouldnt Utah just limit the CCWs to Utah residents and elimate the percived problem all together?

Whose side are you on anyway?

And the current so-called problem isn't, as I read everything, directed against holders of Utah permits, but against non-resident holders of Utah instructor's credentials. The way they are talking, non-residents are still going to be allowed to get instruction from Utah-resident instructors.

However, a few anti-gunners in Utah have picked this up and are running with the "let's just ban non-residents from getting our permits" Let's not encourage them, please.

There was a questionnaire recently on the BCI website, "Rate your instructor," That obviously ties up with this.

Liberty1
02-17-2009, 9:12 AM
Why wouldnt Utah just limit the CCWs to Utah residents and elimate the percived problem all together?


Because then UT based instuctors couldn't, more often and with greater demand, travel on business ALL over the country giving 2 hour classes ($250 x 20 = WOW) then boozing it up with the local chicks (wanta see my concealed carry baby cakes?).

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 9:28 AM
Whose side are you on anyway?


Im on the side of the residents of the state securing thier rights, by eliminating the possibility of non residents comprimising the integrity of thier permits and permit process.

***ETA***Until there is a national (shall issue) standard for CCWs (or better yet no permit required), a state needs to keep its residents rights securly intact. If that means eliminating non resident instructors and/or permit holders, then so be it.

Besides that, arent you a mouthpiece for Billy Jack, the guy who does not support shall issue CCW?

Whos side are YOU on?

Glock22Fan
02-17-2009, 9:32 AM
I think the reason they want to kill it is because it's killing BCI. Last I heard giving ccw's to out of state residents is a huge burden on the system. By law they have 60 days to give you your ccw if you meet all the requirements once you apply and it's taking them 45+ days right now. Since Obama got elected people are taking ccw classes like crazy so I imagine things are worse now.

There was a time, maybe a year ago, when they could not process the demand in a timely manner and things got a little late. Since then, they have got on top of things and the latest I heard them say was "We are no longer having any problems processing the volumes we receive within the required time scales."

Having said that, I'd gladly pay an extra ten dollars or so if that helps them handle non-resident permits.

fairfaxjim
02-17-2009, 10:35 AM
This really just smells of sour grapes on the part of the bills author and his buddy. They see all of the $$ being made by the out of state instructors, and want to keep that piece of the pie for themselves.

I doubt that the reciprocal agreements are in real jeopardy, however, a lot of states CCW reciprocity laws hinge on the other state's laws and training requirements being equal or greater to theirs. It MAY be possible that one or two states have expressed concern about Utah allowing out of state instructors where their laws may not, but I haven't seen anything reported. Nevada did away with getting NV CCW training out of state a while back - you have to go to NV to get your training now, no more NV CCW classes in CA. Utah requires it's out of state instructors to get their renewal in UT.

I question whether or not letters to legislators in UT from CA residents will draw much traction though. I guess I will give it a try - nothing tried, nothing gained. Seems pretty silly that in these times of massive economic and government problems that a supposedly "pro" gun legislator should take aim at Utah's CCW issue system. Just goes to show, just because someone may be "pro" gun, they aren't necessarily pro "your" gun.

dustoff31
02-17-2009, 1:17 PM
Arizona cancelled the reciprocity agreement with UT due to them issuing non-resident CCWs to AZ residents who did not qualify for a CCW under AZ law.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 1:36 PM
Im on the side of the residents of the state securing thier rights, by eliminating the possibility of non residents comprimising the integrity of thier permits and permit process.


Let me explain what side your not getting. Your missing that this is an attempt by UT Resident CCW instructors to create a monopoly so they can charge monopoly rents (aka a lot of money to you and me) to get a UT CCW.

You're on the side of socialism if you support restraint of trade. The supposed reasons are a ruse.

-Gene

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 1:56 PM
Let me explain what side your not getting. Your missing that this is an attempt by UT Resident CCW instructors to create a monopoly so they can charge monopoly rents (aka a lot of money to you and me) to get a UT CCW.

You're on the side of socialism if you support restraint of trade. The supposed reasons are a ruse.

-Gene

If you read my first post you would see that I am for Utah eliminating the non resident permit all together, that would elimate the "problem" of non resident instructors and the "monopoly" of resident instructors.

Throwing down the socialism card was cool though, but I see this more as an issue of a states right to control how it does buisness. If its within the law, which it obviously is, then non residents should probably keep their noses out of it.

jbolton
02-17-2009, 4:18 PM
Hell I'd pay up to three hundred for Non resident.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 4:36 PM
If you read my first post you would see that I am for Utah eliminating the non resident permit all together, that would elimate the "problem" of non resident instructors and the "monopoly" of resident instructors.


I saw that you want to take away a very nice avenue for your fellow gun owners to get a CCW, yes.

Thanks.

-Gene

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 4:58 PM
I saw that you want to take away a very nice avenue for your fellow gun owners to get a CCW, yes.

Thanks.

-Gene

Non resident CCW is a crutch.

Id like to see more movement making shall issue or no permit required the National Standard. If that means breaking a few hearts, so be it.

BroncoBob
02-17-2009, 5:07 PM
H.B. 204 Bill Documents - 2009 General Session

House Bill 204 Concealed Firearms Instructors Ammendments --Oda, C.

This legislation is being put forth by Rep. Curt Oda and supported by W. Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, both of whom are Utah CCW permit instructors. W. Clark Aposhian regularly travels to CA to run classes at gun shows. The assertion is that there is no oversight for out of state instructors and that some states are ready to drop reciprocity or recognition of the Utah permit.

I have thought about this for the past several days. I am an out of state instructor. My classes run 4-5 hours long to get all of the material covered that I have to pass to my students. I cover the material thoroughly as required by Utah BCI and also as required by me as I want my students to have as much info as I can give them. Compare that to W. Clark Aposhian's 2 hour gun show class. He is a Utah resident and a Utah instructor. Does he cover the material thoroughly? I cannot answer that question as I have not spent the $250 to take his course. I do know that I would not be able to fully cover the curriculum in 2 hours.

Then I thought about the oversight issue. If, as suggested by Mr. Aposhian, Utah BCI can not properly keep oversight on out of state instructors, how are they going to keep oversight on instructors who travel to another state from Utah to run a course? What is to keep a Utah "resident" instructor from rubber stamping a students application?

Florida allows out of state instructors to qualify students, but there is no word from Florida that other states are looking to drop reciprocity or recognition. The Florida permit is good in every state but two that the Utah permit is honored. There has also been no word, NONE, of which states are threatening to drop Utah from their reciprocity or recognition list.

What states are threatening to drop reciprocity or recognition? Why is this not happening in Florida as well? Most importantly, what is the REAL reason for this bill?

This bill is scheduled to be heard by the House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee at 8:00 AM on Feb. 18th.

I encourage all of you to write to the Utah legislators and ask them to kill this bill.

Here is a list of members of Utah House of Representatives contact info:

Utah House of Representatives (http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members2005/membertable2add.asp)

Hey Jim, I saw this over at another website and I'm glad you gave us contact information link. I planning my response to them as I write this. By the way your class was excellent.

hawk1
02-17-2009, 5:29 PM
H.B. 204 Bill Documents - 2009 General Session

House Bill 204 Concealed Firearms Instructors Ammendments --Oda, C.

This legislation is being put forth by Rep. Curt Oda and supported by W. Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, both of whom are Utah CCW permit instructors. W. Clark Aposhian regularly travels to CA to run classes at gun shows. The assertion is that there is no oversight for out of state instructors and that some states are ready to drop reciprocity or recognition of the Utah permit.

I have thought about this for the past several days. I am an out of state instructor. My classes run 4-5 hours long to get all of the material covered that I have to pass to my students. I cover the material thoroughly as required by Utah BCI and also as required by me as I want my students to have as much info as I can give them. Compare that to W. Clark Aposhian's 2 hour gun show class. He is a Utah resident and a Utah instructor. Does he cover the material thoroughly? I cannot answer that question as I have not spent the $250 to take his course. I do know that I would not be able to fully cover the curriculum in 2 hours.

Then I thought about the oversight issue. If, as suggested by Mr. Aposhian, Utah BCI can not properly keep oversight on out of state instructors, how are they going to keep oversight on instructors who travel to another state from Utah to run a course? What is to keep a Utah "resident" instructor from rubber stamping a students application?

Florida allows out of state instructors to qualify students, but there is no word from Florida that other states are looking to drop reciprocity or recognition. The Florida permit is good in every state but two that the Utah permit is honored. There has also been no word, NONE, of which states are threatening to drop Utah from their reciprocity or recognition list.

What states are threatening to drop reciprocity or recognition? Why is this not happening in Florida as well? Most importantly, what is the REAL reason for this bill?

This bill is scheduled to be heard by the House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee at 8:00 AM on Feb. 18th.

I encourage all of you to write to the Utah legislators and ask them to kill this bill.

Here is a list of members of Utah House of Representatives contact info:

Utah House of Representatives (http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members2005/membertable2add.asp)


I have no fault with your premise, but let me tell you, my first Utah CCW class about 6 years or so ago was Clark at Prado Shooting Park in Chino. It was not $250 it was much less than that, and it was closer to like 5 hours in class time. Not the 2 hour 'gun show' class you speak of.

Glock22Fan
02-17-2009, 5:53 PM
Non resident CCW is a crutch.

Id like to see more movement making shall issue or no permit required the National Standard. If that means breaking a few hearts, so be it.

Like I said, whose side are you on? Apparently not on the side of those of us who value non-resident ccw's. Thanks a lot, not.

And whatever you think of Billy Jack, I do have a mind of my own as well you know. I pass on what's happening with Team Billy Jack (the team, not the individual).

Personally I favor shall issue, do not like Hutchen's attitude and I do support the guys down in O.C. I have a slight concern that a few people might get a permit that shouldn't, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in other states.

And as I further explained, this wasn't about cancelling non-resident Utah permits SO DON"T TRY TO EXPAND IT TO BE SO. Cancelling these permits isn't going to get anyone in California anything any faster.

BrianK_73
02-17-2009, 7:11 PM
Arizona cancelled the reciprocity agreement with UT due to them issuing non-resident CCWs to AZ residents who did not qualify for a CCW under AZ law.

Utah still has reciprocity with Arizona as long as you are not an AZ resident with a Utah permit. If you are a resident of any state other than Arizona, your Utah CCW is recognized.

The biggest reason was probably money but the excuse was that Utah was issuing to people that didn't qualify under AZ law as you mentioned (people with expunged felonies or DUI convictions for example).

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 7:18 PM
Id like to see more movement making shall issue or no permit required the National Standard. If that means breaking a few hearts, so be it.

How is limiting peoples choices while we move to liberalize every state a good thing?

Do you want a Californian who couldn't' get a CA CCW so far to be gunned down in Seattle because he couldn't get a UT CCW?

Thanks Sarah Brady, I mean Cav...

-Gene

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 7:57 PM
How is limiting peoples choices while we move to liberalize every state a good thing?

Do you want a Californian who couldn't' get a CA CCW so far to be gunned down in Seattle because he couldn't get a UT CCW?

Thanks Sarah Brady, I mean Cav...

-Gene

What I dont want is people who cant control the Gov in thier own state to start telling someone else how to run thiers.

Thanks for the childish name calling youve displayed here in this thread though. Honestly, I thought you were above that, being a represtative of the CalGuns foundation and all, Id think you would want to put a more positive face out there. Between you and 10% I cant understand why yall dont have the full faith and support of every American firearms owner!

Ive never seen you display this level immaturity in any other thread, so it makes me wonder if its something personal or what?

JimAmentler
02-17-2009, 8:00 PM
I have no fault with your premise, but let me tell you, my first Utah CCW class about 6 years or so ago was Clark at Prado Shooting Park in Chino. It was not $250 it was much less than that, and it was closer to like 5 hours in class time. Not the 2 hour 'gun show' class you speak of.

I believe you and I am not saying that Clark runs a poor class especially in light of the fact that I have not attended his class. What I am pointing out is that they are calling out of state instructors into question here regarding pencil whipping applications. I was in SoCal for the Orange County gun show and Clark's flier's stated that his class was $250 and started every 2 hours. I personally could not cover the curriculum properly in 2 hours. Maybe he can. If so, good for him! Mine takes 4-5 hours as yours did 6 years ago. Hopefully he is still doing that, but that is not what his advertising stated.

Here is a link to Clark's web site that states that the class length is 2 hours and starts every 2 hours from 10AM-4PM.

http://www.fairwarning.biz/calendar?cmd=detail&id=21

JimAmentler
02-17-2009, 8:03 PM
Hey Jim, I saw this over at another website and I'm glad you gave us contact information link. I planning my response to them as I write this. By the way your class was excellent.

Thank you sir! It was a pleasure meeting you at the class!

I hope that this does not pass. I also hope that they do find the instructors who are not teaching at least the minimum standards as set by Utah BCI and take them to task for it.

JimAmentler
02-17-2009, 8:06 PM
Short version - they state they want to keep the training "in house" because some states have threatened to pull reciprocity, correct?

If Clark teaches a course does more or less (or the same) amount of $$$ go to the state? Do out of state teachers bring in $$$ that would otherwise not come into the state?

The Utah nonresident CCW seems like a very successful program and I'm not surprised they want to protect it, if that's the case - and I presume there's a money motive also.

That's the rub, at this point we do not know who is threatening to pull reciprocity. And if they are, why are they not threatening Florida with the same?

Whether you are an in state or out of state instructor the money is the same for BCI.

1BigPea
02-17-2009, 8:38 PM
Let me chime in here real quick...

I took the Utah CCW class with JimAmentler recently and I can't see how the class could have been done better, and to say it needs to be done by a Utah resident instructor?? :confused: The class with Jim was thorough, syllabus provided, every topic covered, all fingerprints and photos covered, realistic discussions, application, etc. It was very professional and a good feeling to attend.

This is just another attempt by gun grabbers to steal the rights of law-abiding citizens and us in CA who chose to protect themselves and their families while traveling outside the State. Taking away the ability to get a non-resident Utah CCW takes away my right to defend myself yet once again.

I sure hope this doesn't pass.

DedEye
02-17-2009, 8:43 PM
Non resident CCW is a crutch.

Id like to see more movement making shall issue or no permit required the National Standard. If that means breaking a few hearts, so be it.

How does one serve the other?


What I dont want is people who cant control the Gov in thier own state to start telling someone else how to run thiers.

You mean like how out of staters always tell us how to "fix" California's problems? It happens. Opinions are like *******s. Everyone has one, they all stink.

Ive never seen you display this level immaturity in any other thread, so it makes me wonder if its something personal or what?

You may have noticed that people get touchy when you attempt to infringe their rights.





This bill reeks of cronyism.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 8:44 PM
Cav,

I find it immature of you that you directly support limiting a privilege for gun owners.

I'm trying to explain to you that the real story here is that UT resident instructors are attempting to take advantage of the real service that UT is currently providing by trumping up claims of reciprocity failure for simple monopolistic reasons.

You seem hell bent on supporting selling freedom for rent seeking.

I've never appreciated when financial interests come before constitutional rights by those supposedly involved in the commerce behind the right. I've in fact made a career at times out of opposing that.

I was short and mean to you because you are being a useful supporter of those who would limit the rights of gunowners to line their pockets with cash from gunowners.

I'm not a fan of people who (or support people that) sell out for personal gain.

Now in full disclosure, I have a UT CCW and I've carried in Seattle. I could get a CA CCW with actual good cause but I don't think it is fair or right for me to use that good cause or my economic or political influence to get a CCW in front of the rest of this community that may not have either.

So Cav - why do you de-facto support people trying to take advantage of "The People?"

-Gene

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 9:03 PM
So Cav - why do you de-facto support people trying to take advantage of "The People?"

-Gene

I do not support taking advantage of anyone, what I do support is one state protecting its right to run as it sees fit within the law.

I support a state protecting itself from outside influence, especially when that influence is coming from a state as jacked up as CA.

Utah is doing people a favor by extending its prividges outside its borders, if that favor comprimises the integrity of the process and/or licence then maybe it needs to be reconsidered. Would you have Utah residents suffer the effects of reciprocal agreements being eliminated so that you, a person who does not contribute in any meaningful way to the state, may have a worthless CCW? How does that benefit anyone?

I would rather there be states like Utah that have extensive reciprocal agreements to hold up when fighting for a national shall issue/no permit required/reciprocity agreement/standard. Every state that pulls its agreement with Utah is one less bullet that can be used to shoot down may issue/no issue policies and work towards a national standard/ reciprocity agreement.

Now, explain to me where thats wrong.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 9:08 PM
Now, explain to me where thats wrong.

Because you are supporting economic protectionism at the cost of making it much more expensive for non residents to get the privilege.

Imagine if you could only publish a website if you were "trained" by a California resident first amendment expert.

If you think its about "protecting reciprocity" I have a bridge to Brooklyn to sell you.

-Gene

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 9:18 PM
Because you are supporting economic protectionism at the cost of making it much more expensive for non residents to get the privilege.

Imagine if you could only publish a website if you were "trained" by a California resident first amendment expert.

If you think its about "protecting reciprocity" I have a bridge to Brooklyn to sell you.

-Gene

So its a diffence of opinion on motivation? Well I can dig that, but I wont lower myself to calling you names over a difference in opinion.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 9:20 PM
So its a diffence of opinion on motivation? Well I can dig that, but I wont lower myself to calling you names over a difference in opinion.

Simple factual question for you. Which state has threatened to revoke reciprocity for UT?

Also, I didn't call you names - I compared you to Sarah Brady. I'm sorry that you have an issue with that. Maybe you'd prefer to not actually advocate for limiting gun owners options.

-Gene

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 9:29 PM
Simple factual question for you. Which state has threatened to revoke reciprocity for UT?

Well that would be a question for the authors of the bill wouldnt it. I dont know them from moses, im just agruing from my pov, my opinion on why a state would want to limit how and to who its extends it prividges.

Also, I didn't call you names - I compared you to Sarah Brady. I'm sorry that you have an issue with that. Maybe you'd prefer to not actually advocate for limiting gun owners options.

-Gene

You compared me to a socialist, you called me "Sarah Brady".

Thanks Sarah Brady, I mean Cav...

-Gene

Good try though.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 9:34 PM
Is reading comprehension an issue? I said I compared you to Sarah Brady.

Having done some research I'm telling you that this bill is about protectionist UT CCW Instructors attempting to put non UT Resident CCW instructors out of business.

Your signature is currently this:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
You want to use my shop? You have to pay the piper....

....Ten Percent Firearms. Gouging customers since 2008.

Let me update it for this thread:
Originally Posted by UT Resident CCW Instructors
You want to use my permit? You have to pay the piper....

....UT Resident CCW Instructors. Gouging out of staters since 2009.

-Gene

sorensen440
02-17-2009, 9:37 PM
I do not support taking advantage of anyone, what I do support is one state protecting its right to run as it sees fit within the law.

I support a state protecting itself from outside influence, especially when that influence is coming from a state as jacked up as CA.

Utah is doing people a favor by extending its prividges outside its borders, if that favor comprimises the integrity of the process and/or licence then maybe it needs to be reconsidered. Would you have Utah residents suffer the effects of reciprocal agreements being eliminated so that you, a person who does not contribute in any meaningful way to the state, may have a worthless CCW? How does that benefit anyone?

I would rather there be states like Utah that have extensive reciprocal agreements to hold up when fighting for a national shall issue/no permit required/reciprocity agreement/standard. Every state that pulls its agreement with Utah is one less bullet that can be used to shoot down may issue/no issue policies and work towards a national standard/ reciprocity agreement.


The other states involved can choose not to honor non resident ccw if they want it changes nothing for the utah residents

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 9:54 PM
Is reading comprehension an issue? I said I compared you to Sarah Brady.

Not an issue for me, I read and comprehend just fine. You are quoted in my post above and your original post is there to see.

Having done some research I'm telling you that this bill is about protectionist UT CCW Instructors attempting to put non UT Resident CCW instructors out of business.

If it maintains the integrity of the Utah CCW, is it a bad thing?

Your signature is currently this:


Let me update it for this thread:


-Gene

Dang Gene, what happened to you? This kiddie stuff is beneath you.

The other states involved can choose not to honor non resident ccw if they want it changes nothing for the utah residents

Exactly my point.

Now, what do you do to maintain the integrity of the non resident CCW?

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 9:57 PM
Dang Gene, what happened to you? This kiddie stuff is beneath you.


Is economics kiddie stuff?

You don't like Wes' policies, but when I point out to you someone using state action to implement the supposed policies you don't like when implemented by private action you think I'm being juvenile?

-Gene

dfletcher
02-17-2009, 10:09 PM
That's the rub, at this point we do not know who is threatening to pull reciprocity. And if they are, why are they not threatening Florida with the same?

Whether you are an in state or out of state instructor the money is the same for BCI.

I took the course a few months ago - the 2 hr one @ the CP show. IIRC Utah BCI gets about $65.00 and I presume that is the same regardless of who teaches. But I and the 8 others in that class paid $250.00. Eight people per class, 4 classes a day on Sat & Sun - that's $12,500.00 or so going somewhere. And that's just one guy on one weekend at one show. GOK what these guys make at Reno.

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 10:16 PM
Is economics kiddie stuff?

You don't like Wes' policies, but when I point out to you someone using state action to implement the supposed policies you don't like when implemented by private action you think I'm being juvenile?

-Gene

Holy smokes man.

Youre arguing from the economic standpoint, Im concerned about the integrity of the CCWs. I dont belive the goal is low costs, I belive its keeping CCWs in the hands of as many folks as possible.

My views on Wes policies are irrelevant and have nothing to do with this. Im at a loss as to why you would try throwing that sorry attempt at an argument in the mix, you obviously didnt sleep at the Holiday Inn last night.

Besides, do you even know my views on Wes' policies? Are Wes' policies or prices even unreasonable? From what Ive seen hes a pretty fair and reasonable guy, he just comes up with off the wall stuff to stir the pot, so Im helping him out.

hoffmang
02-17-2009, 10:20 PM
Holy smokes man.

Youre arguing from the economic standpoint, Im concerned about the integrity of the CCWs. I dont belive the goal is low costs, I belive its keeping CCWs in the hands of as many folks as possible.

As I said above, I've got some specific information from some of the right people on what is going on in UT on this. This is not about UT protecting its resident reciprocity. It is about UT instructors using "protecting reciprocity" as a ruse to cover their attempt to take over the lucrative out of state permitting business. If this were about UT actually needing to scale back to make sure UT residents keep reciprocity, you'd hear me being directly on your side on this.


Besides, do you even know my views on Wes' policies? Are Wes' policies or prices even unreasonable? From what Ive seen hes a pretty fair and reasonable guy, he just comes up with off the wall stuff to stir the pot, so Im helping him out.
Fair point and I'm with you on helping Wes stir the pot.

Please understand that some of the issues above came from your not catching what I was trying to explain. I apologize for not making it plain enough.

-Gene

DedEye
02-17-2009, 10:23 PM
Youre arguing from the economic standpoint, Im concerned about the integrity of the CCWs. I dont belive the goal is low costs, I belive its keeping CCWs in the hands of as many folks as possible.

What you believe is not supported by evidence.

Look at who is sponsoring the bill:

Rep. Curt Oda and supported by W. Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, both of whom are Utah CCW permit instructors. W. Clark Aposhian regularly travels to CA to run classes at gun shows.

Do you really not see how they have a vested financial interest in eliminating or reducing the competition?

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 10:29 PM
I dont know "the right people" I dont even know if "the right people" exist. For all I know "the right people" could be a made up term to pacify the gun loving masses while the anti gunners advance thier agendas.

That being said, I also dont know these politicians and thier actual agendas, Im taking the article at face value and and arguing my from my perspective on the issue. If indeed this is a plot to eliminate the competition of non resident instructors than that sucks and should be exposed as such. The electorate should make thier voices heard and hold these representatives accountable. However, if the integrity of the non resident permit is truly in jepordy than I belive they are taking the appropriate course of action.

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 10:37 PM
What you believe is not supported by evidence.

Look at who is sponsoring the bill:



Do you really not see how they have a vested financial interest in eliminating or reducing the competition?

Obviously they have a vested interest, but it doesnt automatically equate to a nefarious plot.

I can make crazy connections too.

A man who donated money to the Obama campaign is arguing against a pro CCW sheriff candidate and advocating for a policy that jepordizes the integrity of non resident CCW permits. It appears to me that an undercover anti-gunner infiltrator is attempting to sabatoge pro 2A groups and movements in order to further his gun grabbing agenda.

Do I actually belive that? No.

Is it outside of the realm of possibility?

I dunno...

...is it?

:confused:

DedEye
02-17-2009, 10:37 PM
I dont know "the right people" I dont even know if "the right people" exist. For all I know "the right people" could be a made up term to pacify the gun loving masses while the anti gunners advance thier agendas.

That being said, I also dont know these politicians and thier actual agendas, Im taking the article at face value and and arguing my from my perspective on the issue. If indeed this is a plot to eliminate the competition of non resident instructors than that sucks and should be exposed as such. The electorate should make thier voices heard and hold these representatives accountable. However, if the integrity of the non resident permit is truly in jepordy than I belive they are taking the appropriate course of action.

It actually seems like you're ignoring key facts from the article. Shall I quote it again?

Rep. Curt Oda and supported by W. Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, both of whom are Utah CCW permit instructors. W. Clark Aposhian regularly travels to CA to run classes at gun shows.

Here, I'll throw in some more info that you keep neglecting:

Florida allows out of state instructors to qualify students, but there is no word from Florida that other states are looking to drop reciprocity or recognition. The Florida permit is good in every state but two that the Utah permit is honored. There has also been no word, NONE, of which states are threatening to drop Utah from their reciprocity or recognition list.

What states are threatening to drop reciprocity or recognition? Why is this not happening in Florida as well? Most importantly, what is the REAL reason for this bill?

With no evidence to support your claim, and evidence to support Gene's... well, the case looks to have been made so far. Absent additional evidence, I think "face value" points in the exact opposite direction you're looking.

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 10:49 PM
It actually seems like you're ignoring key facts from the article. Shall I quote it again?



Here, I'll throw in some more info that you keep neglecting:



With no evidence to support your claim, and evidence to support Gene's... well, the case looks to have been made so far. Absent additional evidence, I think "face value" points in the exact opposite direction you're looking.

Considering that the OP is written by a non resident permit instructor, with no references or evidence provided, this could just as easily be a bitter non resident instructors attempt to smear and discredit the legitimate reasons for the bill being introduced.

**ETA** I do not actually think this is the case, just playing devils advocate. The OP and I have mutual friends who have vouched for his credibility.

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 10:53 PM
With no evidence to support your claim, and evidence to support Gene's... .

What evidence?

DedEye
02-17-2009, 10:57 PM
Considering that the OP is written by a non resident permit instructor, with no references or evidence provided, this could just as easily be a bitter non resident instructors attempt to smear and discredit the legitimate reasons for the bill being introduced.

**ETA** I do not actually think this is the case, just playing devils advocate. The OP and I have mutual friends who have vouched for his credibility.

A perfectly valid point. Absent any other information, we have little else to go on so far.

What evidence?

None save what Jim posted. The evidence to which I am referring are the bill's supporters; their vested financial interest in eliminating competition is evidence to me that they do not have the best interests of Utah CCWers at heart.

CavTrooper
02-17-2009, 11:02 PM
A perfectly valid point. Absent any other information, we have little else to go on so far.



None save what Jim posted. The evidence to which I am referring are the bill's supporters; their vested financial interest in eliminating competition is evidence to me that they do not have the best interests of Utah CCWers at heart.

They also have a vested interested in mainting the integrity of the Utah CCW permit considering they are Utah residents. If in fact reprocity agreements are in peril, then I would commend them for watching out for the best interests of their state.

BUT we have no proof either way, so its moot. :thumbsup:

DDT
02-17-2009, 11:42 PM
They also have a vested interested in mainting the integrity of the Utah CCW permit considering they are Utah residents. If in fact reprocity agreements are in peril, then I would commend them for watching out for the best interests of their state.

BUT we have no proof either way, so its moot. :thumbsup:

The bill supporters made assertions (that some states are threatening to withhold reciprocity if Utah continues using non-resident trainers but wouldn't pull reciprocity if Utah residents trained the same non-resident holders.)

Gene made a claim that there is no evidence that the supporters assertions are factual. He also pointed out that one of the sponsors has an economic interest in reducing the competition in the form of non-resident trainers.

The assertions made by the bill supporters should be readily proven if they are factual. There was a thread about the possibility of similar changes for non-resident AZ CCW holders which would seem to indicate that such information does make its way to the public if they are factual.


In general it is laid at the feet of those seeking to change law or science to prove the need for the change. The bill sponsors and supporters haven't offered any evidence.

johnny_22
02-18-2009, 4:31 AM
This is a dupe.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=153829&highlight=UTAH+CCW

Even the comments for the bill talk about how it is better to get the potential CCWs to Utah as tourists.

dustoff31
02-18-2009, 6:25 AM
Utah still has reciprocity with Arizona as long as you are not an AZ resident with a Utah permit. If you are a resident of any state other than Arizona, your Utah CCW is recognized.

The biggest reason was probably money but the excuse was that Utah was issuing to people that didn't qualify under AZ law as you mentioned (people with expunged felonies or DUI convictions for example).


Not to beat this to death but if you look here, http://http://ccw.azdps.gov/reciprocity/documents/Reciprocal_Agreements_Current.pdf you will see that the formal reciprocity agreement no longer exists.

However, each state does continue to recognise each the other's permits, except as we have noted.

dfletcher
02-18-2009, 7:36 AM
I've taken the course, I'm glad it's in place and I hope it continues. I think as many qualified people who can use it should and I make it a point of telling gun owners who might think the course is difficult or too "gung ho" that it's an easy and pleasant routine.

I do not believe the quality of instruction or class performance has any impact on the granting of a license. I suppose an exception would be if one were obviously "51/50" - they'd be sent away. The determining factor must be the paperwork completed & signed & notorized - to be checked by Utah BCI. Unless someone has better information, I presume whether submitted by an in state instructor or out of state, it all goes through the same process in state. I'd expect they all get the same final review and are held to the same standard.

Were I a Utah elected official though, I think I'd have a hard time voting against the bill. Yes, it appears protectionist & that is pholisophically a reason to vote against it. If it could be shown to keep guns out of the hands of law abiding folks - again, a reason to vote no. But if it can be demonstrated that this keeps jobs and money in state (common sense says it does) I'd have a hard time saying no.

Also, I think they're leaving money on the table by charging folks from Iowa or Alabama the same amount they're charging people in CA, MA or NY, etc. Perhaps the state fee must be the same, but if I were giving a class in Burbank I'd sure charge more than the same class held in Quincy, FL.

Given that Utah BCI processes the paperwork, I'd suppose the reason given (pulling reciprocity) is tainted and may just be a little window dressing that allows the Utah legislators to vote yes without appearing antigun or as economic protectionists, but in the final analysis it's their program and their jobs and their money - their call.

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 7:56 AM
Cav Trooper,

I think that there are three main problems with your position.

Why wouldnt Utah just limit the CCWs to Utah residents and elimate the percived problem all together?

First, the "percived problem" isn't what you have said it is. I can't remember the link, but I have read about this in Utah papers as well as here. The proposal is to disqualify/decertify out-of-state instructors to "ensure" that non-residents get "proper" training. As Gene explains, this bill can only really be driven by the greed of certain resident instructors and benefits nobody else; certainly not non-residents who will either have to travel to Utah or pay the cost of getting a Utah instructor to come to them. There is no problem caused by Utah non-resident permit holders who have been improperly trained and no proof that other states are upset by this. Following your suggestion benefits even fewer people, it hits out at the instructors, non-resident and resident, it hits out at the CCW holders. It does nothing to make Utah safer and it certainly doesn't make non-residents safer.

The second issue is that you say in another post that we outsiders should not try to influence Utah's internal politics. For goodness sake, that's exactly what you are doing suggesting that non-resident permits be banned. In your book, we shouldn't criticise the proposed bill but it is OK for you to suggest drastically changing it for the worse?

Finally, how does your proposal, in any way, shape or form, help us get nearer to the free and unfettered "right to own and bear arms" that we all aspire to?

You keep continually saying that you are right, but produce no evidence, you just argue that you are not Sarah Brady. Well, my friend, your views are far closer to hers than I want to hear on this board.

CavTrooper
02-18-2009, 8:04 AM
Oct 2007

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20071024/ai_n21060041

"With applicants from states other than Utah, background checks aren't the problem -- it's keeping track of crimes committed after a permit is issued that could cause it to be suspended or revoked, Phillips said.

...

But there's just no way the state can keep track of U.S. permit- holders who live outside Utah, he said. "We can't. We just simply can't," Phillips said. "It just creates a real inequity of what we're requiring from a Utah resident."

Feb 2009

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11667010

"This is an unfortunate but necessary step we in the gun rights community are supporting in order to maintain the integrity and credibility of the Utah permit," said Charles Hardy, policy director for Gun Owners of Utah."

...

However, Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and of BCI's weapons review board, says he already has legislators from around the country saying they are ready to stop recognizing Utah's permit because of concerns with some instructors. "I will fight hard now to keep reciprocity with all 35 states rather than fight hard for the next 10 years to get it back, and maybe never get it back," he said"

...

hawk1
02-18-2009, 8:06 AM
I believe you and I am not saying that Clark runs a poor class especially in light of the fact that I have not attended his class. What I am pointing out is that they are calling out of state instructors into question here regarding pencil whipping applications. I was in SoCal for the Orange County gun show and Clark's flier's stated that his class was $250 and started every 2 hours. I personally could not cover the curriculum properly in 2 hours. Maybe he can. If so, good for him! Mine takes 4-5 hours as yours did 6 years ago. Hopefully he is still doing that, but that is not what his advertising stated.

Here is a link to Clark's web site that states that the class length is 2 hours and starts every 2 hours from 10AM-4PM.

http://www.fairwarning.biz/calendar?cmd=detail&id=21

Thanks for the info Jim. I can clearly see things have changed from when I took his class 6 years ago.

CavTrooper
02-18-2009, 8:12 AM
Cav Trooper,
...
You keep continually saying that you are right, but produce no evidence, you just argue that you are not Sarah Brady. Well, my friend, your views are far closer to hers than I want to hear on this board.

Evidence... again, you accuse me of not producing evidence when you yourself has not produced any evidence to the contrary. Why? Because there is none either way! We are arguing ideas, we are disagreeing on the thoughts expressed in the OP by a non-resident Utah CCW instructor with a vested monetary interest in keeping the non resident instructor game alive.

Im not at all opposed to shall issue/no permit required CCW for every law abiding American, what I am arguing is that if, in fact, the integrity of the Utah permit is in question, isnt it in everyones best interest to ensure its viability?

You are the spokesperson for TBJ are you not?

What is the official position of TBJ on Shall issue CCW?

Now, tell me again whos views are closer in line with the Bradys?

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 8:33 AM
Evidence... again, you accuse me of not producing evidence when you yourself has not produced any evidence to the contrary. Why? Because there is none either way! We are arguing ideas, we are disagreeing on the thoughts expressed in the OP by a non-resident Utah CCW instructor with a vested monetary interest in keeping the non resident instructor game alive.


I'll address that in a separate reply

Im not at all opposed to shall issue/no permit required CCW for every law abiding American, what I am arguing is that if, in fact, the integrity of the Utah permit is in question, isnt it in everyones best interest to ensure its viability?

You are the spokesperson for TBJ are you not?

What is the official position of TBJ on Shall issue CCW?

TBJ does not have, nor does it need to have, a position on Shall Issue or any other proposed law change. TBJ is striving to ensure that everyone who has a legitimate claim under the existing law can get one on equal terms with everyone else. Members of TBJ have differing views on Shall Issue, there is no team position. I gave my position in a post above.

Now, tell me again whos views are closer in line with the Bradys?

As I favor shall issue, and non-resident permits, yours are.

dfletcher
02-18-2009, 8:35 AM
Oct 2007

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20071024/ai_n21060041

"With applicants from states other than Utah, background checks aren't the problem -- it's keeping track of crimes committed after a permit is issued that could cause it to be suspended or revoked, Phillips said.

...

But there's just no way the state can keep track of U.S. permit- holders who live outside Utah, he said. "We can't. We just simply can't," Phillips said. "It just creates a real inequity of what we're requiring from a Utah resident."



Interesting - this would be an issue with any nonresident permit, regardless of who does the instructing, yes? How does Utah (or any state issuing nonresident CCWs) keep tabs on what someone does out of state?

If a Utah resident with a CCW commits a certain offense and is caught, their CCW is pulled? If a nonresident does the same, it's not noticed?

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 8:38 AM
Oct 2007

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20071024/ai_n21060041

"With applicants from states other than Utah, background checks aren't the problem -- it's keeping track of crimes committed after a permit is issued that could cause it to be suspended or revoked, Phillips said.

...

But there's just no way the state can keep track of U.S. permit- holders who live outside Utah, he said. "We can't. We just simply can't," Phillips said. "It just creates a real inequity of what we're requiring from a Utah resident."

Feb 2009

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11667010

"This is an unfortunate but necessary step we in the gun rights community are supporting in order to maintain the integrity and credibility of the Utah permit," said Charles Hardy, policy director for Gun Owners of Utah."

...

However, Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and of BCI's weapons review board, says he already has legislators from around the country saying they are ready to stop recognizing Utah's permit because of concerns with some instructors. "I will fight hard now to keep reciprocity with all 35 states rather than fight hard for the next 10 years to get it back, and maybe never get it back," he said"

...


Your first quote dates back nearly two years and has nothing to do with the current legislation.

Your second quote says nothing about banning non-resident permits and completely supports the views of the OP, of Gene and of myself.

Utah gun rights advocates team with gun-control fans
HB204 The bill would eliminate out-of-state concealed firearm instructors.
By Sheena Mcfarland

The Salt Lake Tribune

Posted: 02/09/2009 08:15:01 PM MST


UTAH POLITICS


Utah's gun rights activists are breaking ranks with the National Rifle Association for the first time in recent memory and instead are joining forces with gun-control advocates such as Sen. Scott McCoy.

They have come together over problems with out-of-state concealed firearm instructors rubber stamping permits instead of properly instructing applicants.

"This is an unfortunate but necessary step we in the gun rights community are supporting in order to maintain the integrity and credibility of the Utah permit," said Charles Hardy, policy director for Gun Owners of Utah.

McCoy, a Salt Lake City Democrat who supports gun control measures, agrees with the bill.

"I'm happy they want to tighten up the program," he said of Utah's gun rights activists. "Good on them for pursuing a problem and working to fix it."

Utah has about 1,000 instructors, and two-thirds of them aren't Utahns, said Lt. Doug Anderson, program manager at the Bureau of Criminal Identification, which oversees the permit. He estimates complaints at between 20 and 30, mostly about out-of-state instructors.

Brian Judy, Utah state liaison for the National Rifle Association, said Utah needs more concrete evidence that states want to stop recognizing its permit before taking such a drastic step. Instead he'd like to see licenses revoked on a case-by-case basis.

However, Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and of BCI's weapons review board, says he already has legislators from around the country saying they are ready to stop recognizing Utah's permit because of concerns with some instructors.

"I will fight hard now to keep reciprocity with all 35 states rather than fight hard for the next 10 years to get it back, and maybe never get it back," he said.

He recognized that out-of-state permits could decrease slightly, but said the fact it's so widely recognized and inexpensive will draw people to Utah to get the permit or have groups pay for a Utah instructor to fly out to them. Currently, about half of Utah's 142,000 permits are carried by nonresidents.

Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, a strong gun rights supporter, is sponsoring the proposed change in HB204. He said he's willing to work with the NRA as long as it addresses the problem.

"We're the most valuable permit in the country because of the training we require both for instructors and permit holders," Oda said. "It bothers me there are some instructors out there who say 'Pay me the money and I'll certify you.'"

The NRA's Judy said he would like more feedback from students so BCI can watch nonresident instructors better.

BCI, though, has three investigators, only two of whom spend time in the field. Anderson said he simply doesn't have the manpower to police nonresident instructors.

"These people have a permit but don't have any knowledge of state law," he said. "It's a big responsibility to carry a concealed, loaded weapon, and we want to make sure permit holders understand laws regulating use of force."

BrianK_73
02-18-2009, 8:54 AM
Not to beat this to death but if you look here, http://http://ccw.azdps.gov/reciprocity/documents/Reciprocal_Agreements_Current.pdf you will see that the formal reciprocity agreement no longer exists.

However, each state does continue to recognise each the other's permits, except as we have noted.

That link shows which states recognize Arizona's CCW permit and shows which have entered into formal reciprocity agreements and which recognize Arizona CCW's without a formal agreement. Utah has never had a formal/written agreement with Arizona as I understand it.

What you should be looking at is what is written at the top of the "reciprocity" page.

http://ccw.azdps.gov/reciprocity/default.asp

Specifically:

Arizona recognizes all other states valid permits:

This state and any political subdivision of this state shall recognize a concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state if both:

1. The permit or license is recognized as valid in the issuing state.

2. The permit or license holder is all of the following:

(a) Not a resident of this state.

(b) Legally present in this state.

(c) Not legally prohibited from possessing a firearm in this state.

For the purpose of establishing mutual permit or license recognition with other states, the department of public safety shall enter into a written agreement if another state requires a written agreement.

Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, a person with a concealed weapons permit from another state may not carry a concealed weapon in this state if the person is under twenty-one years of age or is under indictment for, or has been convicted of, a felony offense in any jurisdiction, unless the person's rights have been restored and the conviction is expunged, set-aside or vacated and the applicant is currently not a prohibited possessor under state or federal law.

CavTrooper
02-18-2009, 9:11 AM
As I favor shall issue,

I think a legitimate argument can be made that you do not, in fact, favor shall issue. You are the spokesman for TBJ, whos namesake, Billy Jack, is decidedly against shall issue CCW. He has made this statement in public repeatedly. As the spokesman, the argument can be made that you are by extension a supporter of his views and against shall issue. Compare the situation to a spokesman for the Bradys stating that they are actually pro 2A.

and non-resident permits, yours are.

Again, I belive the argument can be made that you are in fact against non resident permits, since you are supporting policies that may weaken the legitamicy of said permits.

CavTrooper
02-18-2009, 9:16 AM
Your first quote dates back nearly two years and has nothing to do with the current legislation.

It shows that the root of the percived problem dates back to before this legislation was introduced.

Your second quote says nothing about banning non-resident permits and completely supports the views of the OP, of Gene and of myself.

The second quote shows that the legitimacy of the non resident permit may be pulled into question as a result of non resident instructors pencil whipping the training requirements and the possible issues of maintining the qualifications of non resident permit holders.

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 9:21 AM
I think a legitimate argument can be made that you do not, in fact, favor shall issue. You are the spokesman for TBJ, whos namesake, Billy Jack, is decidedly against shall issue CCW. He has made this statement in public repeatedly. As the spokesman, the argument can be made that you are by extension a supporter of his views and against shall issue. Compare the situation to a spokesman for the Bradys stating that they are actually pro 2A.

Again, I belive the argument can be made that you are in fact against non resident permits, since you are supporting policies that may weaken the legitamicy of said permits.

Billy Jack has his views, I have mine. As I said, TBJ does not have and does not need a team view on Shall Issue. TBJ is not a political action group, it is a legal action group. My spokesmanship is on legal issues only. All other opinions are mine.

Where do you get this bovine excreta?

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 9:34 AM
It shows that the root of the percived problem dates back to before this legislation was introduced.

Nobody but you is linking these two issues together.

The second quote shows that the legitimacy of the non resident permit may be pulled into question as a result of non resident instructors pencil whipping the training requirements and the possible issues of maintining the qualifications of non resident permit holders.

Your argument could equally be restated:

the legitimacy of the non resident permit may be pulled into question as a result of non resident instructors pencil whipping the training requirements and the possible issues of maintining the qualifications of non resident permit holders.

So, let's ban resident permits as well.



It all boils down to: nothing about this current bill is suggesting abolishing non-resident permits so WTF are you pushing this agenda so hard ?????????

CavTrooper
02-18-2009, 9:40 AM
It all boils down to: nothing about this current bill is suggesting abolishing non-resident permits so WTF are you pushing this agenda so hard ?????????

Im not pushing abolishing anything! What I am pushing is securing the legitimacy of the Utah permits by whatever means works best. If that means elimating non resident instructors or permits to ensure the continued, widespread recognition of the Utah permit then so be it.

To me, its about keeping as many permits as possible, that are recognized in as many states as possible, in as many hands as possible! Why is that so hard to understand?

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 9:51 AM
Im not pushing abolishing anything! What I am pushing is securing the legitimacy of the Utah permits by whatever means works best. If that means elimating non resident instructors or permits to ensure the continued, widespread recognition of the Utah permit then so be it.

If anyone can give any evidence that this is indeed the case, or that the currently proposed bill is anything other than a greed-inspired bid by certain resident instructors, I haven't heard it yet. Until then, this is a solution (that will hurt people) looking for a problem.

To me, its about keeping as many permits as possible, that are recognized in as many states as possible, in as many hands as possible! Why is that so hard to understand?

No problem with these as expressed aims. My problem is the path that you seem to think is necessary to do this will, in my opinion, be detrimental to those aims.




On that note, I am leaving this thread. I think we've reached, possibly long passed, the point where "You can take a horse to water but . . ."

CavTrooper
02-18-2009, 9:56 AM
On that note, I am leaving this thread. I think we've reached, possibly long passed, the point where "You can take a horse to water but . . ."

Youre probably right Wilbur.. or would you prefer Mr Ed? :eek:

Im kidding guy. No harm meant.

:thumbsup:

CCWUSA
02-18-2009, 10:13 AM
I am a Utah Non-Resident Instructor based in SoCal. So I may be slightly biased on this issue. :) I have really enjoyed teaching this class since 2003. I meet a great bunch of people that have common interests, goals, and values. However, when I look at the BIG picture of "BANNING" anything because a small percentage of people did something wrong or failed to do something right, I can't help but think of Prohibition, and how well that worked out? Or The Assault Weapons Ban that made us all so much safer. Why is the solution to STOP everyone, or BAN everything?

If my neighbor commits a crime, then he should be prosecuted through due process. I would prefer not to be punished for my neighbors criminal act. Why do we still insist on addressing the wrong issue? Out-of State Instructors are not the problem. All Instructors (in-state OR out-of-state) that do not take their position of trust seriously enough to properly cover the required curriculum ARE the problem. If Utah has 20 to 30 complaints about various Instructors, then why not follow up with those individual Instructors?

I have attended Six (6) separate Utah CCW Permit Classes just so I could see how other Instructors teach their classes. What I have found is a group of fantastic people interested in sharing their knowledge of firearm safety, gun handling, use of force, and State laws, so their students will stay out of trouble, avoid confrontations, increase awareness, and may actually have a viable option for self defense when traveling.

Here's some interesting info from the Utah Shooting Sports Council website:

***

Concealed Carry Facts:
Since 1995 over 57,000 concealed carry permits have been issued to Utah residents.
Over the eight year period, some 900 permits have been revoked for various reasons, including alcohol, subject to a protective order filed in a routine divorce case, and some more serious crimes. This is about 1.6% of people who passed a background check and then later committed stupid or illegal acts. Probably some of them would have carried a gun illegally even if they did not have a permit. In that same time, you have seen many stories about Utah teachers convicted of serious crimes, Utah lawyers engaged in criminal acts, Utah religious leaders charged with crimes, Utah youth group leaders accused of molesting children and even Utah police officers convicted for criminal offenses. Every group of people includes a tiny percentage of people who will violate the law, and should be punished for their actions.

Tell us again why we should fear Concealed Carry Permit holders or need to place additional areas off limits to them?

Why Women Should Be Armed in Utah?

Utah ranks among the worst in forcible rape -
(Second only to Alaska) An estimated one in five adult women in Utah has been forcibly raped at least once during her lifetime, putting the state well above the national average, according to the results of a federal study. Salt Lake Tribune story has the details.

In most cases, the mere knowledge that a victim has a firearm is enough to scare a criminal away. A diamond may be forever, but a 9mm may be a life saver.

***

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 11:32 AM
A diamond may be forever, but a 9mm may be a life saver. Perhaps I should give my wife a 9mm with a diamond in it? Has anyone had jewels set in a pistol's frame or slide?

DDT
02-18-2009, 12:36 PM
Perhaps I should give my wife a 9mm with a diamond in it? Has anyone had jewels set in a pistol's frame or slide?

With the predominance of both firearms and "bling" in the rap music industry I'd have to say the probability is > 99%


edit: That didn't take long.

http://lundestudio.com/2008SHOTShow/Day3/beretta-92fs-diamond-3.jpg

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 1:56 PM
Ok, perhaps something I can afford...maybe diamonds as the dots for the sights?

dustoff31
02-18-2009, 8:39 PM
That link shows which states recognize Arizona's CCW permit and shows which have entered into formal reciprocity agreements and which recognize Arizona CCW's without a formal agreement. Utah has never had a formal/written agreement with Arizona as I understand it.

What you should be looking at is what is written at the top of the "reciprocity" page.

http://ccw.azdps.gov/reciprocity/default.asp

Specifically:


Well, Utah did have a formal reciprocity agreement with AZ and it was cancelled some time back for the reasons I stated earlier.

While each state does still honor the others permits, there is a difference between reciprosity and recognition, although perhaps not in practical terms. Nevertheless, going from reciprocity to recognition is a step backwards and could indicate that other reciprocity agreements are indeed in peril.

JimAmentler
02-18-2009, 8:48 PM
Thanks for the info Jim. I can clearly see things have changed from when I took his class 6 years ago.

Not a problem sir!

JimAmentler
02-18-2009, 8:55 PM
However, Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and of BCI's weapons review board, says he already has legislators from around the country saying they are ready to stop recognizing Utah's permit because of concerns with some instructors. "I will fight hard now to keep reciprocity with all 35 states rather than fight hard for the next 10 years to get it back, and maybe never get it back," he said"
...

I am still interested in hearing which states are ready to pull reciprocity and recognition. Also why they are not threatening to stop recognizing the FL permit which is recognized in almost the same states that the Utah permit is.

Glock22Fan
02-18-2009, 9:23 PM
I am still interested in hearing which states are ready to pull reciprocity and recognition. Also why they are not threatening to stop recognizing the FL permit which is recognized in almost the same states that the Utah permit is.

and often taught by the same instructors in the same session as a twofer.

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 9:35 PM
^ Because Florida plays nice most of the time and advises others effectively not to mess with them the rest of the time.