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xxxx
02-15-2009, 7:27 PM
It seems that the 5.7x28mm round is very controversial. As some of you might know I am the proud owner of a PS90 (out of state).

I would like to hear what you all think of the ballistics of the 5.7x28mm round coming out of the FN FiveSeveN/10" barrel of P90 and 16" barrel of PS90.

For the sake of argument lets not include CA gun laws in this topic due to the fact that someone will stand up and say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THEN 10 ROUNDS!" or bash on the platform because it is not CA compliant.

So let's hear it - what do you think of 5.7x28mm?

SDgarrick
02-15-2009, 7:32 PM
I think it's a neat concept, don't own one, never shot one, would love to though. You'll always have the .45 die hards and we can guess their positions... I suppose it would depend on the attacker, the situation (body armor?), and a multitude of other variables. All that considered, I know it to be a very flat shooter and thus accurate over distances compared to other pistol rounds... Accuracy equals a greater chance of hitting where you want and we all know that shot placement trumps all. So there ya go.

xxxx
02-15-2009, 7:42 PM
I think it's a neat concept, don't own one, never shot one, would love to though. You'll always have the .45 die hards and we can guess their positions... I suppose it would depend on the attacker, the situation (body armor?), and a multitude of other variables. All that considered, I know it to be a very flat shooter and thus accurate over distances compared to other pistol rounds... Accuracy equals a greater chance of hitting where you want and we all know that shot placement trumps all. So there ya go.

Yup, I've heard it compared with .223, 9mm, and .45ACP. So far I am convinced on its superiority over 9mm in terms of penetration, tissue damage, range (out of my PS90).

I've heard many people state that at under 50 yards 5.7x28 is very similar to .223, but I question that.

It almost seems like the anti-.45ACP, where as the .45 is a big slow moving projectile the 5.7 is small and quick. So there is much debate there.

jchen76@gmail.com
02-15-2009, 7:43 PM
If the round was loaded by other companies, and more pistol/rifle selections it would have a larger following. FN's hold on patents and design may be its undoing. Kinda like the .45 GAP that Glock is pushing.

virulosity
02-15-2009, 7:50 PM
I think it is probably the best pistol cartridge there is. Low recoil, small size = large capacity, high velocity = high damage and flat trajectory. I would be interested in seeing the energy at 50ft compared to a .45ACP. I would bet they would be relatively close, and considering the benefits in capacity (7 rounds vs 20) you have more firepower in the 5ive7even.

Dr Rockso
02-15-2009, 7:52 PM
Call me naive, but I think the reason I don't see the 5.7 as anything spectacular is because I still don't think anyone has built the ultimate .223 bullpup carbine. I think when it happens, it will look a lot like Magpul's concept PDR. Something the size of the P90 but a more common (and IMO more serious) round.
http://www.hizone.info/i/Image/2007/06/18/01.jpg

I certainly think that the 5.7 round is an interesting concept, but wouldn't be among my first choices for a gunfight. I have to admit that if I lived in a free state I would definitely consider getting the AR57 upper just for a range toy. Almost no recoil, standard capacity 50 round magazines...yes please...
http://www.57center.com/uploaded/images/Image%20Gallery/LEAR57/424386316_pwarmsuppers-1%20revised%20copy.jpg807x2400.jpg?e=1

IceMan711
02-15-2009, 8:28 PM
I've actually been doing a little web research on this lately out of my own curiosity due to a previous 5.7 thread. Excuse my wordy post, but this is fresh on my mind. It may ruffle some feathers.

It is my understanding that the 5.7 projectiles are very similar to light .223 bullets. I read that some 5.7 reloaders were using .223 bullets as components to keep the costs down, since both bullets are 5.69 mm (.224 inch) in diameter and of similar construction.

This being said, it is easy for me to compare these rounds to the effectiveness of .223 bullets with similar weights and velocities. Light weight .223 bullets have always shown less than stellar effectiveness, especially if you fire them out of a short barrel with decreased velocities. Those have always been varmint rounds that lack penetration. They have impressive fragmentation in gel when fired at adequate velocities, but always lack the penetration to be considered for a home defense type role.

I don't understand how a bullet so similar to a .223 can be considered to be an effective man stopper when fired out of such short barrel lengths, with such light weights, and severely reduced velocities. I mean, how effective would a 28gr .223 rem bullet be when fired out of a 5" barrel? Or even a 10" - 16"? The lightweight .223's are under performers, even with their larger brass and increased power charges.

I have read how people say how they have seen the effectiveness of these cartridges when hunting, and their amazing performance. I have no reason to believe that what they saw would be better than a slow varmint .223 round, or yes, even a .22mag.

It is just strange to me that people on the 5.7 boards claim that these rounds will "tumble through vital organs". (a direct quote) When an ultra light weight 28 grain .223 fired through a 5" - 10" barrel would be laughed at (and rightfully so)

If you want to argue that this is an effective cartridge because it allows for high magazine capacity and faster, more accurate follow shots then more power to you. If you absolutely have to penetrate body armor with your side arm, then this round is for you. I would just not, however, suggest to argue that these rounds bring more to the table ballistics wise than 9/40/45 do.

xxxx
02-15-2009, 8:42 PM
I will share my experience with an FN FiveSeveN pistol vs a Glock 17. (I love Glocks)

At the range I took my PS90 and I saw a guy with a FN FiveSeveN and a Glock 17. I had a Class II in good condition I was going to test out with my PS90.

I am by no means an expert at ballistics, in fact I know very little.

He saw what I was about to do and asked if he could join in on my test.

Results were:

Glock 17 penetrated Class II and hit the plywood boards underneath.
FN FiveSeveN penetrated ClassII, made a mess out of the plywood and came out the other side.
PS90 clean threw both sides, even at 75 yards. I even doubled up the plywood to see what would happen (can't remember exactly how many boards were in there)

Now I know my tests were the equivalent of an 8th grade science lab, but the damage from the little 5.7mm round really messed up those boards - and went out the other end of the body armor.

(FYI, we flipped over the back end of the body armor so the back was facing the wrong direction - thus less chance of penetration)

uzigalil
02-15-2009, 8:57 PM
you guys realize that the FN p90 using 5.7x28 was developed around 1991 and may have see its first combat use in the Japanese enbassy hostage takeover in Peru in 1996. The p90 was developed to be used with the ss190 a steel core round , it was designed to be used by support troops and pierce enemy body armor and soft targets. The rounds available to civilians such as the ss195 and ss197 compare more to a .22 magnum.

It has been reported in after action reports that its not an effective round for round man stopper.


Id love to know Iceman what 5.56 components someone is using to reload 5.7 ?

It is another of FN's failed military weapons, with limited sales to some close protection teams, the secret service and some us swat teams, they have sold more to civilians, lucky for us. I have a IOM and went through p90 school. Its fun but has problems like any system.

NSR500
02-15-2009, 9:32 PM
We can debate the 5.7 all day and I can see why it has it's proponents and opponents. I personally like the round and will be picking up an AR57 upper soon.
I do want to say that I applaud FN Herstal for getting all these cool guns to us, unlike so many in the industry that come up with vaporware or don't sell to civilians.

artherd
02-15-2009, 9:38 PM
It is a fantastic round, with muzzle energy exceeding that of 9mm, very light recoil and 20 round capacity in a handgun. It is absolutely SAVAGE on phone books (I could stick my fist in the exit hole.) and is far beyond a .22mag.

9 times of 10 I can hit a silhouette at 100 meters with mine. Meters. With a handgun.

It has been reported in after action reports that its not an effective round for round man stopper.
Oh really? Every incident involving the 5.7 that I know of - has proven fatal...

The rounds available to civilians such as the ss195 and ss197 compare more to a .22 magnum.

Uh. no. The S190 and SS195 are approximately equivalent, and both will penetrate body amour, though the SS190 is more effective in this role.
They are otherwise ballistically equivalent.

IceMan711
02-15-2009, 9:53 PM
Id love to know Iceman what 5.56 components someone is using to reload 5.7 ?


.224 diameter Hornady .40 grain V-max. I'm sure you all know how devastating that projectile would be out of a 5" barrel with the all the powder charge from a 5.7 case lol.

Some of these 5.7 guys swear the FN bullets are magical. I just can't help but think how pathetic the .223 varmint projectiles are at the same velocities. Somebody please tell me where my logic is flawed.

uzigalil
02-15-2009, 9:56 PM
really every Incident has been fatal? How many rounds did it take , a rather general statement

Care to be more specific as to what level of body armor does the ss195 and ss197 penetrate versus the ss190.

uzigalil
02-15-2009, 10:06 PM
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.



The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

mblat
02-15-2009, 10:20 PM
It is absolutely SAVAGE on phone books (I could stick my fist in the exit hole.) and is far beyond a .22mag.

I am no ballistic experts...... but phone books have one HUGE difference from human body - it isn't elastic. And we all know how important ( not ) temporary cavity is in handguns shootings <shrugs>

As far as I know 5.7 doesn't fragment..... so..... let me see...... Main problem with 9mm FMJ is that it is light and fast and doesn't fragment and leaves very accurate and not dangerous ( sort of... ) wound. With 5.7 we have bullet that lighter and faster and doesn't fragment...... what exactly posses this bullet to be deadly?
And hitting target at 100 yards.... that is nice, of cause..... but in real word, who cares? You are telling me that you would ever consider taking REAL shot at REAL person with handgun at 100 yards?

SDgarrick
02-16-2009, 1:36 AM
.224 diameter Hornady .40 grain V-max. I'm sure you all know how devastating that projectile would be out of a 5" barrel with the all the powder charge from a 5.7 case lol.

Some of these 5.7 guys swear the FN bullets are magical. I just can't help but think how pathetic the .223 varmint projectiles are at the same velocities. Somebody please tell me where my logic is flawed.

Ready? It will kill you.

IceMan711
02-16-2009, 8:29 AM
Ready? It will kill you.

I think this is how the argument will go between us:

Me: Yeah? Well a .22 will kill too, but that is not the best choice for self defense.
You: I bet you wouldn't want to get shot by one!
Me: I wouldn't want to get shot with a rubber band gun. So what?
You: It's all about shot placement anyways!

Right?

theneko
02-16-2009, 8:48 AM
Without actually wading into the caliber debate I would add just one thing.
As another poster mentioned, FN is not making the best decisions regarding ammo, similar to the .45 GAP. By voluntarily pulling the original ammo from the civilian market and down-loading the non-LEO rounds that are available, they are definately hampering both the balistics and popularity of the 5.7x28 firearms.

However, if you are interested in 5.7 balistics or are the owner of a 5.7 firearm you should check out Elite Ammunition. They are making some amazing "after market" ammo and the effects are much more significant than the stock FN stuff. Utilizing this ammo you can realize the full potential of a high-capacity (non-CA), fast projectile, with excellent recoil characteristics for fast follow ups.

I would suggest you try one at the range and check out the fiveseven forums to learn more. There is a lot of good data there including balistics and gel tests.

IceMan711
02-16-2009, 3:12 PM
However, if you are interested in 5.7 balistics or are the owner of a 5.7 firearm you should check out Elite Ammunition. They are making some amazing "after market" ammo and the effects are much more significant than the stock FN stuff. Utilizing this ammo you can realize the full potential of a high-capacity (non-CA), fast projectile, with excellent recoil characteristics for fast follow ups.

I haven't read anything on their website that says anything about their bullet construction. They give very limited data about the ballistics, and don't show anything like gel tests.

Responding to the increasing need for smaller yet more lethal tools, Elite Ammunition developed the S4 UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round specifically for law enforcement and SpecOps military professionals

Sounds like they have the same P.R. department as the eXtreme SHOCK ammunition company:

Over ten years in co-development with Special Operations Groups and Federal Law Enforcement, the new ExtremeShock™ Explosive Entry tactical defense rounds represent the ultimate refinement in lethal bullet technology.

Give me a break. I just see more light weight rounds fired at speeds too slow to do anything worth while.

SDgarrick
02-16-2009, 3:55 PM
I think this is how the argument will go between us:

Me: Yeah? Well a .22 will kill too, but that is not the best choice for self defense.
You: I bet you wouldn't want to get shot by one!
Me: I wouldn't want to get shot with a rubber band gun. So what?
You: It's all about shot placement anyways!

Right?

Something like that, or maybe not. I dunno. Depends on if I've got my Thinkin' Cap on. It might go something like this:

You: The 5.7 is quite the inadequate round.
Me: I disagree with your statement.
You: F U
Me: O'rly *pokes you with a pin*
You - *deflates rapidly as all hot air leaves you*

Or maybe I'll just tack "my .02" at the end of everything to keep you from trying to attack my attack on your attack.

But who knows? that's why imagination is fun!

theneko
02-16-2009, 3:58 PM
If you looked around the site you would see:

Info on velocity and muzzle energy:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55

Some informal (?) tests with gel:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=57

Cheers,
Neko

Grantness
02-16-2009, 4:53 PM
Hey guys,

I reload the 5.7x28 for my FiveseveN pistol...so I believe I can respond to some of your questions.

Most any .224" bullet can be used in the 5.7x28 as long as it stays under ~55gr. Once you go over that, the bullet isnt going to go fast enough to be worth it....also they can sometimes fail to stabilize in the 1in9 inch twist barrel.

Some .224" bullets are designed to fragment, others are designed to tumble, and others are designed to expand. As far as I know, the 28gr bullet used in the SS192/195/198 (i'll refer to it as SS195)is perhaps the best bullet that can be legally used (it is not available seperately as a component, so it must be pulled from factory ammunition w/ a collet-style bullet puller). It will remain horizontal while penetrating hard targets, but when hitting a soft target it will tumble. Most of the time there is no exit wound, meaning that ALL of the bullet's energy is released inside the target. The AP projectile used in the SS190 isnt exactly kosher in most places. I have seen ballistic gelatin tests as well as tests on pig meat that show permanent wound cavities as large as 4 inches wide. Also, this projectile (and any other that you can push to rifle velocities) is going to cause hydrostatic shock....something that you will not find with many handgun calibers. There is also an armor penetrating capability with some bullets/ammo which I will not go into here.

The amateur home reloader can easily push the SS195 projectile to speeds of 2400fps or more if they know what they are doing (~358ft/lbs is on par with 9mm). I have also pushed 45gr expanding bullets to more than 2000fps (=400ft/lbs which is on par with .45acp). The Elite Ammunition UltraRaptor, which utilizes the 28gr SS195 projectile, can attain speeds of 2600fps out of the FsN (420ft/lbs exceeds the muzzle energy of most .45acp). Elite Ammunition regularly loads a variety of different .224" bullets for various applications from self defense to hunting to target shooting. Upon special request, they will load practically any (as long as its legal for them to do so) .224" bullet you want.

Yes, the SS195 (was 28gr @ ~2050fps but is now ~1900) and 197 (~40gr VMax @ ~1700fps)are watered down by FN. Also, the SS195 has become scarce in recent months due to increased demand, FN's contractual obligations overseas, and a decreased supply. It has also been determined that the latest production of SS195 (now in a blue box) appears to be significantly slower than before. Therefore, there is some strength to the arguments by this round's detractors that the factory ammo is weak. Fortunately, EA produces ammo superior to FN's in every way. In fact, their ammo far exceeds the performance of FN's "LEO/MIL" only ammo. I recommend that anyone who purchases an FsN/PS90 take up reloading to ensure a constant supply of good ammo. Fortunately, .224" bullets are cheap and easy to come by. SS197 is easy enough to find, so brass is generally not a problem. There isnt a whole lot of published load data, but there is enough...and there are a lot of good loads to be found on the internet if you know where to look

Sorry for the long post, but I thought you guys might be interested to know some of this stuff.

SDgarrick
02-16-2009, 4:59 PM
Hey guys,

I reload the 5.7x28 for my FiveseveN pistol...so I believe I can respond to some of your questions.

Most any .224" bullet can be used in the 5.7x28 as long as it stays under ~55gr. Once you go over that, the bullet isnt going to go fast enough to be worth it....also they can sometimes fail to stabilize in the 1in9 inch twist barrel.

Some .224" bullets are designed to fragment, others are designed to tumble, and others are designed to expand. As far as I know, the 28gr bullet used in the SS192/195/198 (i'll refer to it as SS195)is perhaps the best bullet that can be legally used (it is not available seperately as a component, so it must be pulled from factory ammunition w/ a collet-style bullet puller). It will remain horizontal while penetrating hard targets, but when hitting a soft target it will tumble. Most of the time there is no exit wound, meaning that ALL of the bullet's energy is released inside the target. The AP projectile used in the SS190 isnt exactly kosher in most places. The 28gr SS195 projectile is designed to tumble. I have seen ballistic gelatin tests as well as tests on pig meat that show permanent wound cavities as large as 4 inches. Also, this projectile (and any other that you can push to rifle velocities) is going to cause hydrostatic shock....something that you will not find with many handgun calibers. There is also an armor penetrating capability with some bullets/ammo which I will not go into here.

The amateur home reloader can easily push the SS195 projectile to speeds of 2400fps or more if they know what they are doing (~358ft/lbs is on par with 9mm). I have also pushed 45gr expanding bullets to more than 2000fps (=400ft/lbs which is on par with .45acp). The Elite Ammunition UltraRaptor, which utilizes the 28gr SS195 projectile, can attain speeds of 2600fps out of the FsN (420ft/lbs exceeds the muzzle energy of most .45acp). Elite Ammunition regularly loads a variety of different .224" bullets for various applications from self defense to hunting to target shooting. Upon special request, they will load practically any (as long as its legal for them to do so) .224" bullet you want.

Yes, the SS195 (was 28gr @ ~2050fps but is now ~1900) and 197 (~40gr VMax @ ~1700fps)are watered down by FN. Also, the SS195 has become scarce in recent months due to increased demand, FN's contractual obligations overseas, and a decreased supply. It has also been determined that the latest production of SS195 (now in a blue box) appears to be significantly slower than before. Therefore, there is some strength to the arguments by this round's detractors that the factory ammo is weak. Fortunately, EA produces ammo superior to FN's in every way. In fact, their ammo far exceeds the performance of FN's "LEO/MIL" only ammo. I recommend that anyone who purchases an FsN/PS90 take up reloading to ensure a constant supply of good ammo. Fortunately, .224" bullets are cheap and easy to come by. SS197 is easy enough to find, so brass is generally not a problem. There isnt a whole lot of published load data, but there is enough...and there are a lot of good loads to be found on the internet if you know where to look

Sorry for the long post, but I thought you guys might be interested to know some of this stuff.

thanks, that was very informative. I'm not surprised by that info at all.

SwissFluCase
02-16-2009, 5:18 PM
Hey guys,

I reload the 5.7x28 for my FiveseveN pistol...so I believe I can respond to some of your questions.

Most any .224" bullet can be used in the 5.7x28 as long as it stays under ~55gr. Once you go over that, the bullet isnt going to go fast enough to be worth it....also they can sometimes fail to stabilize in the 1in9 inch twist barrel.

Some .224" bullets are designed to fragment, others are designed to tumble, and others are designed to expand. As far as I know, the 28gr bullet used in the SS192/195/198 (i'll refer to it as SS195)is perhaps the best bullet that can be legally used (it is not available seperately as a component, so it must be pulled from factory ammunition w/ a collet-style bullet puller). It will remain horizontal while penetrating hard targets, but when hitting a soft target it will tumble. Most of the time there is no exit wound, meaning that ALL of the bullet's energy is released inside the target. The AP projectile used in the SS190 isnt exactly kosher in most places. I have seen ballistic gelatin tests as well as tests on pig meat that show permanent wound cavities as large as 4 inches wide. Also, this projectile (and any other that you can push to rifle velocities) is going to cause hydrostatic shock....something that you will not find with many handgun calibers. There is also an armor penetrating capability with some bullets/ammo which I will not go into here.

The amateur home reloader can easily push the SS195 projectile to speeds of 2400fps or more if they know what they are doing (~358ft/lbs is on par with 9mm). I have also pushed 45gr expanding bullets to more than 2000fps (=400ft/lbs which is on par with .45acp). The Elite Ammunition UltraRaptor, which utilizes the 28gr SS195 projectile, can attain speeds of 2600fps out of the FsN (420ft/lbs exceeds the muzzle energy of most .45acp). Elite Ammunition regularly loads a variety of different .224" bullets for various applications from self defense to hunting to target shooting. Upon special request, they will load practically any (as long as its legal for them to do so) .224" bullet you want.

Yes, the SS195 (was 28gr @ ~2050fps but is now ~1900) and 197 (~40gr VMax @ ~1700fps)are watered down by FN. Also, the SS195 has become scarce in recent months due to increased demand, FN's contractual obligations overseas, and a decreased supply. It has also been determined that the latest production of SS195 (now in a blue box) appears to be significantly slower than before. Therefore, there is some strength to the arguments by this round's detractors that the factory ammo is weak. Fortunately, EA produces ammo superior to FN's in every way. In fact, their ammo far exceeds the performance of FN's "LEO/MIL" only ammo. I recommend that anyone who purchases an FsN/PS90 take up reloading to ensure a constant supply of good ammo. Fortunately, .224" bullets are cheap and easy to come by. SS197 is easy enough to find, so brass is generally not a problem. There isnt a whole lot of published load data, but there is enough...and there are a lot of good loads to be found on the internet if you know where to look

Sorry for the long post, but I thought you guys might be interested to know some of this stuff.

I have always suspected that FN was watering down the ammo. It seems that no weapons system really becomes refined until the hobbyists get a hold of it, and the 5.7 will be no exception. I think that this cartridge can be a serious combat cartridge, but it is going to take more than the FN Kool-Aid to make it so.

I would love a PS90. After the CA AWB is nuked, and open long gun carry is restored, the PS90 would make a great vehicle gun.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

RJ Herle
02-17-2009, 11:03 AM
I haven't read anything on their website that says anything about their bullet construction. They give very limited data about the ballistics, and don't show anything like gel tests.

I really don't like to confront armchair commando's on the net, but I was somewhat insulted by your posting. We've always listed the ballistic performance of our ammunition, including its ability to penetrate jello-blocks. Which is more than what 95% of other manufacturers do.

Perhaps you would like to investigate further, perhaps not. If you do, please look at this URL for video of gellatin testing and armor penetration tests.
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502



Sounds like they have the same P.R. department as the eXtreme SHOCK ammunition company:

And it seems to me, after reading multiple postings from you all over this website, that you have a chip on your shoulder. You know nothing of our company, but yet you're willing to badmouth us publicly because of your distemper. That says less about us, and more about your own insecurities (and bullyish behaviuor).

As it pertains to Marty Facklers reasearch, have you actually read it? No, I didn't think so. Nor will you ever be able to. In order to read the actual article you must be a member of the guild, which requires an MD as a minimum, and a $1,500 yearly payment. All that you've read is what's been snippeted and posted by several people, ironically who work for competitors of FN. And, for what its worth, the testing was done using a cartridge that is no longer made, has not been since the late 80's, and was anemic in comparison to FN's current anemic rounds.

Now, if you'd like to discuss this in person, like a big boy, feel free to telephone to me or my partner. We'd love to speak with you. 815.814.0847.
Ask for Ryan Herle or Jay Wolf.

RJ Herle
02-17-2009, 1:12 PM
Oh, and one final thing (I assume you'll try and use the IWBA data, that you can't read fully, can't understand fully, and can't comprehend fully) about the IWBA... They're such a successful orginazation that they're no longer in existance.

Don't believe me? Google them. :D

IceMan711
02-17-2009, 1:41 PM
I'm flattered that you would take the time to respond, and even investigate my postings on this board! I always like to bring new members to Calguns. =)

You're mostly right: I am indeed an arm chair commando, I do sound more like a dick than I intend to, and I may have a chip on my shoulder. I had a 5.7 pistol a while back and decided it was a novelty item, so I sold it for a $250 loss. Maybe I just have had hurt feelings since then, but there is a lot of compelling data against the cartridge, a lot of passionate opinions, and debating is fun.

I wasn't trying to attack your company, I just have a hard time taking any company seriously when they play the 'tacticool' card the way you have. I wish you the best of luck with your company and your UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round.

sigsauer887
02-17-2009, 2:47 PM
I'm flattered that you would take the time to respond, and even investigate my postings on this board! I always like to bring new members to Calguns. =)

You're mostly right: I am indeed an arm chair commando, I do sound more like a dick than I intend to, and I may have a chip on my shoulder. I had a 5.7 pistol a while back and decided it was a novelty item, so I sold it for a $250 loss. Maybe I just have had hurt feelings since then, but there is a lot of compelling data against the cartridge, a lot of passionate opinions, and debating is fun.

I wasn't trying to attack your company, I just have a hard time taking any company seriously when they play the 'tacticool' card the way you have. I wish you the best of luck with your company and your UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round.


You sold it for $250~?!!?!?!

Zesty
02-17-2009, 6:08 PM
^he said a $250 LOSS

RJ Herle
02-18-2009, 7:31 AM
I'm flattered that you would take the time to respond, and even investigate my postings on this board! I always like to bring new members to Calguns. =)

You're mostly right: I am indeed an arm chair commando, I do sound more like a dick than I intend to, and I may have a chip on my shoulder. I had a 5.7 pistol a while back and decided it was a novelty item, so I sold it for a $250 loss. Maybe I just have had hurt feelings since then, but there is a lot of compelling data against the cartridge, a lot of passionate opinions, and debating is fun.

I wasn't trying to attack your company, I just have a hard time taking any company seriously when they play the 'tacticool' card the way you have. I wish you the best of luck with your company and your UltraRapTOR Tactical Operations Round.

I'm not sure where you get 'Tacticool' from our website. The fact of the matter is that both my partner and I are combat veterans; having served in TO&E, MCM, and Forward Observation/Pathfinding positions. We are both educated engineers, qualified ballisticians, and maintain relationships with agencies such as FBI, USSS, DEA, BATFE, and SOA. We have, through continuous testing and cooperation, developed a number of cartridges to suit their needs, based upon their feedback, and using their criterium.

We are not attempting to seem "eXtreme****tish' like those clowns (who owe me money, btw, for product purchased for evaluation that they've never delivered), but the fact remains that certain types of advertisements are effective. We are in businss to make profit, expand, and make more profit. Advertising that helps us to those ends are what our shareholders expect and demand.

Do I like it? That's besides the point. I am the CEO and my job is to position the company I've been given charge over into being the dominating producer of 5.7x28mm ammunition. Since everything we make exceeds FN's performance by a minimum of 20% and a maximum of 40%, I'd say we literally have no competetion in the market we're in. Regardless, we still have to advertise our ammunition in such a way as to make and maintain brand recognition, so that when people think 5.7x28mm, they think "Elite Ammunition."

I'm sorry if you don't like the verbage of our product descriptions. However, they are what polled the best to our target sample audience. Advertising is not an art, but a science, and as we all know, one must follow the laws of science...

I wish you no ill will personally, I simply took umbrage to you lumping us in with Extreme****.

IceMan711
02-18-2009, 11:14 AM
Fair enough! Lumping you in with those guys was harsh.

I never wanted to call anyone's qualifications into question. It's just that when I started browsing your page, some of the 'lingo' just made me roll my eye's a little bit, and I can't imagine I'm the only one. If that is what sells, I wouldn't change it either, but I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

rips31
02-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Now, if you'd like to discuss this in person, like a big boy, feel free to telephone to me or my partner. We'd love to speak with you. 815.814.0847.
Ask for Ryan Herle or Jay Wolf.

hey ryan!

nice of you to finally join this forum (after years of trying to get you here)! :D

yellowfin
02-18-2009, 11:43 AM
I'll take an FS2000 instead. The platform is the big plus, not the round.

sb_pete
02-18-2009, 11:58 AM
... The fact of the matter is that both my partner and I are combat veterans... We are both educated engineers, qualified ballisticians, and maintain relationships...

We are not attempting to seem "eXtreme****tish' like those clowns... Do I like it? That's besides the point. I am the CEO and my job is to position the company I've been given charge over into being the dominating producer of 5.7x28mm ammunition... I'm sorry if you don't like the verbage of our product descriptions. However, they are what polled the best to our target sample audience. Advertising is not an art, but a science, and as we all know, one must follow the laws of science...

I wish you no ill will personally, I simply took umbrage to you lumping us in with Extreme****.

This is interesting stuff. Thanks for wading into the fray RJ Herle. It is always nice when somebody gets onto the forums to personally defend or promote their product.

You are right, and it is nice to see someone admit it. The marketing verbiage is just that, marketing. As long as it helps sell the product and does not lie to the customer, it is doing its job. That said, that is also precisely why I and many other people you find on these forums either don't read that stuff or just find it comical. I understand it helps you sell product. Great. I think you might sell even more product if, beneath all the marketing, you started listing more info in the product specs. Specifically, it would be nice to see MV, BC, and energy in ft-pds for both pistol and rifle length barrels and a listing of the barrel length used for the number. Your product sounds great. If you listed the numbers, there would no longer be any question about it.


___
On a different note, I would really like to see a serious comparison between 5.7x28mm, 4.6x30mm HK, and 6x35mm KAC in SBR roles. Heck throw in 7.62x25mm Tokarev, 9x39mm, and 6mm Whisper for fun and show everything in relation to current intermediate cartridges like .223, 7.62x39mm, 6.5 Grendal, and 6.8SPC. The biggest advantage of these mini-rifle cartridges, in my view is their suitability with short 10" and under barrels.

The pistol caliber debate over fast&light vs big&slow and hicap/low-recoil vs low-cap/big-punch will never end and only serves to sell more guns and ammo (certainly not a bad thing, that:D). I am more interested in what happens with 7-10" barrels. The optics hitting the scene these days have suddenly made short-barreled carbines much more viable weapons as sight radius no longer matters like it used to. Light-weight, detachable suppressors with minimal POI shift are also adding to this. PDW's and very short carbines are a seriously interesting area to look at these kinds of cartridges.

-Pete

IceMan711
02-18-2009, 12:15 PM
And while we still have your attention RJ, can you tell me a little about the bullets you use? Do you make those in house?

A link to a forum post that already has this info would suffice of course.

RJ Herle
02-18-2009, 12:55 PM
We do list velocities and the length of barrel we measured the velocities from on the webpage. A good portion of the other data you've asked for is easily obtainable by doing the foot pounds of energy calculations. Why we don't put them on there is that it makes the page cluttered, and such tables did not poll well with the sample audience.

People like to feel special when they make a purchase, and most consumers not only don't know anything about ballistics, so the tables would be useless to them, but they also don't want to know. All they care about is purchasing 'the best,' and we're happy to cater to them. Some of our sample audience thought we were 'talking down' to them when we placed the technical data on the website because they not only couldn't understand it, but had no interest in understanding it.

Being who, and what I am, I prefer the hard technical data; many other do not. Perhaps I'll have our web guy create another page that has the technical data, including velocity and bullet drop at distance, soon. I'll ask our CFO if that's in this months budget constraints or not.

Thanks for the polite response, its good to correspond with people who have a polite nature.

-RJ Herle, CEO
Elite Ammunition

Grantness
02-18-2009, 1:05 PM
From what I understand, EA may be working on a bullet similar to the SS195 projectile in weight, performance, and dimensions....but with a zinc core instead of aluminum/steel. They are also close to coming out with their own brass for 5.7x28 which has me extrememly excited.

They currently offer a number of in-house gunsmithing work too. They will perform a trigger job on the FsN that brings the trigger pull down from ~5-6lbs to ~2.7-3lbs. They offer chamber lapping/polishing to improve case life. And they will remove the magazine safety for you. I can personally attest to the quality of this work, as I had my FsN "accurized" by EA not too long ago. They did a full work over, and upon discovering some worn parts, ordered me some new ones and installed them. The whole process took about 2 weeks and I couldnt be more satisfied. With my trigger down to 2.7;bs, Ive noticed a tremendous improvement in my groups.

As I said before, they use a variety of .224" bullets and will usually load anything you want upon special request. The most popular ones are the 36gr Varmint Grenade, the 40gr Nosler ballistic tip, 55gr FMJ BT (also availble as a tracer round), 45gr TSX, and the 28gr SS195 projectile (depending on availability).

RJ Herle
02-18-2009, 1:10 PM
And while we still have your attention RJ, can you tell me a little about the bullets you use? Do you make those in house?

A link to a forum post that already has this info would suffice of course.

We do not currently manufacture bullets in-house. We use commercial projectiles from Barnes, Hornady, Federal, Speer, Sierra, Berger, Nosler for our regular production lines (we produce everything from 5.7x28mm all the way up to .50 BMG), and we have two projectiles that we either import from Europe (the 28 grain aluminum core HP we use in the RapTOR), or have made in Utah (28 grain zinc core electroplate TMJ - experimental).

Our 5.7x28mm line is what pays the bills. As one of only two manufacturers in the world, its our bread and butter. All of the other manufacturing we do is just extra toppings on the pizza, so to speak. We are by no means a 'volume' manufacturer, but a smallish custom loading outfit.

I noticed that you sold a number of 75 grain Hornady TAP in steel cases; good ammunition by any standard. We load something similiar for several of the local Police agencies who have compared TAP to what we make. Hands down, our ammunition shoots tighter, with more consistant MV's and SD's, and at a price that's less than TAP retail. The reason our stuff shoots better is that its not loaded on massive plate machines drumming out 12,000+ rounds per hour; its generally loaded on small proprietary rotary station loaders that turn out 1,000 - 1,050 rounds per hour. We could run them much faster, but then the quality sufferes dramatically.

While we try to turn out as much ammunition as possible in a work day, quality can never suffer as a result. So, we never tax our machines to the breaking point, we check every 100th round that comes off the line not only for dimensions, but for powder weight and volume, THEN we take another one from the hundred round batch and send it downrange to test pressure, velocity, and accuracy. NO OTHER manufacturer on earth does this, and this is why we have the most loyal customer base on the planet.

We breathe, eat, sleep, and dream ammunition. Its our life. We would never let a single round of ammunition leave our shop unless it was QC'd AND having fired a sampling through my personally owned firearms. My theory is "I wouldn't send ammunition to someone else to shoot that I haven't shot myself, from my own guns."

If you have any specific questions about any of our product lines, please drop by the Fivesevenforum.com, register, and ask your question in the Elite Ammunition sub-forum. Most of your questions will likely be answered by our loyal customers long before I'll be able to get to them, but just the same, I'll answer when I can.

I'll also check back in here periodically to see what's happening. I'm originally from Lancaster and most of my family still lives in Commiefornia, so I try and stay abreast of what's happening there.

As a sidebar, we're getting ready to bring to market our new California special 5.7x28mm lead free round.. We may name it the "GovernaTOR" in honory of that piece of human debris who occupies the Governors mansion...

rayra
02-18-2009, 1:37 PM
It seems that the 5.7x28mm round is very controversial. As some of you might know I am the proud owner of a PS90 (out of state).

I would like to hear what you all think of the ballistics of the 5.7x28mm round coming out of the FN FiveSeveN/10" barrel of P90 and 16" barrel of PS90.

For the sake of argument lets not include CA gun laws in this topic due to the fact that someone will stand up and say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THEN 10 ROUNDS!" or bash on the platform because it is not CA compliant.

So let's hear it - what do you think of 5.7x28mm?

What's the point of having the discussion, when you deliberately constrain the parameters to get teh answers you want?

AND the discussion is equally useless because WE are stuck in CA and with its crappy laws. So fapping about the short bbl does us no good. Might even get phlebitis.

tophatjones
02-18-2009, 1:45 PM
Here are just a few thoughts from a non professional. The 5.7x28mm is great - for its intended purpose. It is great if you need the ability to penetrate armor where most pistol rounds cannot. The controversy begins and ends when people want "do it all" type of rounds. No rounds (in our physically governed world) can do that, they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Get a 5.7 weapon if you have the need or desire to penetrate armor. Do not expect one shot stops. P.S. Stopping power is different from the ability to inflict fatal wounds.

tophatjones
02-18-2009, 1:46 PM
RJ, is there any chance that EA is looking into producing heavier match bullets for the 5.56mm caliber?

trinydex
02-18-2009, 2:45 PM
you guys realize that the FN p90 using 5.7x28 was developed around 1991 and may have see its first combat use in the Japanese enbassy hostage takeover in Peru in 1996. The p90 was developed to be used with the ss190 a steel core round , it was designed to be used by support troops and pierce enemy body armor and soft targets. The rounds available to civilians such as the ss195 and ss197 compare more to a .22 magnum.

It has been reported in after action reports that its not an effective round for round man stopper.


Id love to know Iceman what 5.56 components someone is using to reload 5.7 ?

It is another of FN's failed military weapons, with limited sales to some close protection teams, the secret service and some us swat teams, they have sold more to civilians, lucky for us. I have a IOM and went through p90 school. Its fun but has problems like any system.
what is an iom and what was p90 school like

pnkssbtz
02-18-2009, 3:07 PM
what is an iom and what was p90 school likeI don't know what p90 school is like, but I can answer the IOM question.

From Wikipedia: IOM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven)

Five-seveN IOM

The IOM model (for Individual Officer's Model) was the first publicly available variant, debuting commercially in 2004. The IOM is similar in its basic design to the original versions, but differs in that it has a different accessory rail, lined trigger guard outside edge, and adjustable sights. It also incorporates a magazine disconnect—this safety mechanism prevents the weapon from being fired without the magazine inserted.

technique
02-18-2009, 3:46 PM
when I think 5.7, I think 22mag

sb_pete
02-18-2009, 9:38 PM
...Why we don't put them on there is that it makes the page cluttered, and such tables did not poll well with the sample audience.... and most consumers not only don't know anything about ballistics, so the tables would be useless to them, but they also don't want to know. All they care about is purchasing 'the best,' and we're happy to cater to them. Some of our sample audience thought we were 'talking down' to them when we placed the technical data on the website because they not only couldn't understand it, but had no interest in understanding it.

That's a shame, but I can understand where focus group data might come back showing that. Perhaps it is possible to include that data without having it clutter up the product pages. Maybe it could be included as a small pop-up window connected to a "ballistics" link underneath the "restrictions" field. Or maybe such tables could be included in the "Additional Images - Click to Enlarge:" section. Perhaps the easiest and cheapest from a web design standpoint would be just what you suggested - a single page containing all the data for each loading by chambering in table format. It would be nice if this were accessible from each product page though - maybe in the additional images section. It would also be nice (esp in the case of something like 5.7) if data were included from both pistol length and 16" rifle barrels. Too often, ballistics data is only given for one (usually very long) bbl length.

I can see where tech data might be confusing or off-putting to the mean average customer, but I think this is not the case with the types of customers from whom those people seek advice. Similar to how political campaigns put out "policy wonk" info into publications intended to reach the political elites in the hope that the info will then trickle down, I think making tech info available might help you in getting competition and hobbyist shooters (who are just as off-put by marketing hype as average joes are with tech data) enthused with your product. They would then recommend it to their buddies who just want "the best" defensive/varmint/etc. load for their gun. That said, I am not in the ammo biz, and it is your bottom line.

...Being who, and what I am, I prefer the hard technical data; many other do not. Perhaps I'll have our web guy create another page that has the technical data, including velocity and bullet drop at distance, soon. I'll ask our CFO if that's in this months budget constraints or not.

Thanks for the polite response, its good to correspond with people who have a polite nature.

-RJ Herle, CEO
Elite Ammunition
Sounds good and thanks. +1 right back at you :thumbsup:

-Pete

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 5:15 AM
when I think 5.7, I think 22mag


FN factory ammunition has 20% more energy when fired from a 5" BBL than .22 mag when fired from a 26" BBL.

Ours has between 60% and 80% additional energy over .22 mag (fired from a 26" BBL) when fired from the Five-seveN pistol.

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 5:22 AM
RJ, is there any chance that EA is looking into producing heavier match bullets for the 5.56mm caliber?

There are no commercial producers of '5.56 NATO' ammunition. 5.56 NATO exceeds SAAMI pressure guidelines, and no insurer in the US will indemnify a manufacturer who makes, or reloads, to 5.56 NATO standards. Not to mention that there are no commercial dies manufactured. .223 Remington is the commercial equivelant, but do NOT confuse the two, as they are completely different cartridges.

5.56 NATO has a thicker brass case, reducing internal volume and increasing pressure (this is good for durability of the cartridge and to ensure full and complete powder combustion in a range of tempatures and climates), and a longer neck. SAAMI lists 5.56 NATO as being "UNSAFE when used in a .223 chamber." I agree. Pressures spike dramatically when the neck of the brass is crammed into the leade of the chamber, and I've seen several AR KB's due to using NATO ammunition in a Remington chamber.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with this conversation. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Yes, we regularly load heavy match bullets into .223 remington cases. Quotes are individual, based upon that days materials cost, and have a minimum order requirement of 1,000 rounds.

As with anything we manufacture, we have a 100% guarantee. If you're not satisfied, we buy back the unused portion.

trinydex
02-19-2009, 8:09 AM
http://www.eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA223M

that's a pretty good price for match ammo... 29.45 for shipping.

xxxx
02-19-2009, 8:39 AM
What's the point of having the discussion, when you deliberately constrain the parameters to get teh answers you want?

AND the discussion is equally useless because WE are stuck in CA and with its crappy laws. So fapping about the short bbl does us no good. Might even get phlebitis.

Are you slow or something? As far as I know this is the most comprehensive thread on CalGuns documenting 5.7x28mm data. Being that I own a 5.7x28mm firearm I am personally interested.

I wanted unbiased, objective opinions, and data - what would give you the idea otherwise?

Okay - if you want to label this discussion 'useless' then get out. Because many others, including my self have found this discussion to be very informative. And just so we're clear - not all of us are "stuck" in CA - I live there but many of us have homes out of state. And even if we don't it's still interesting to track the progress of this pretty new and "unproven" round - much more informative then discussing best way to kill zombies.

And for the rest of you, remember this is just a round. Not your child. If someone is saying, "I don't like it" no big deal. No need for anyone to get defensive or aggressive, this is an intellectual discussion (despite what some members try to turn it into). Steele down.:thumbsup:

6172crew
02-19-2009, 9:03 AM
Lets take it easy in here guys.

On a side note I have a SBR'd Ps90. The barrel is like 10.3 inches, is there a certain load I should look for? I have been saving 195-197 which one works best for hunting? Dont laugh but I was thinking about pig hunting with it.:thumbsup:

dac41
02-19-2009, 9:39 AM
I was into this pistol a few years ago but then wisened up and went with a glock for my first buy. Never realized the bullets can be made with .223 components , I mean hell yes let's load those ss192s as fast as we can! Damn! I figured it was its own bullet.

So now when this thing sounds interesting I see the pistols are selling for 950-1250. Were they discontinued? I could swear they were no more than 850, only two years ago.

The AR uppers look amazing and with elite ammo around I could definitely see picking up the upper and some 50 rounders.

razorx
02-19-2009, 9:47 AM
Without Ryan producing custom 5.7 ammo, this would barely be more than a novelty. I have personally chrono'd 2450 fps avg out of my five-seven for the Super-Raptor load.

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 10:01 AM
Lets take it easy in here guys.

On a side note I have a SBR'd Ps90. The barrel is like 10.3 inches, is there a certain load I should look for? I have been saving 195-197 which one works best for hunting? Dont laugh but I was thinking about pig hunting with it.:thumbsup:

Lots of people hunt hogs with the pistol and carbine. You're not alone.

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 10:02 AM
Without Ryan producing custom 5.7 ammo, this would barely be more than a novelty. I have personally chrono'd 2450 fps avg out of my five-seven for the Super-Raptor load.

Our new RapTOR loading chrono's at just under 2,600 fps from the pistol.

Zesty
02-19-2009, 10:05 AM
^Damn that's smoking

I'm extremely interested in buying some of this Elite Ammunition to try out. Is there any data out there as to what pressures these loads are running at? I assume they are all safe, just curious. Thanks.

rayra
02-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Are you slow or something? As far as I know this is the most comprehensive thread on CalGuns documenting 5.7x28mm data. Being that I own a 5.7x28mm firearm I am personally interested.

I wanted unbiased, objective opinions, and data - what would give you the idea otherwise?

Okay - if you want to label this discussion 'useless' then get out. Because many others, including my self have found this discussion to be very informative. And just so we're clear - not all of us are "stuck" in CA - I live there but many of us have homes out of state. And even if we don't it's still interesting to track the progress of this pretty new and "unproven" round - much more informative then discussing best way to kill zombies.

And for the rest of you, remember this is just a round. Not your child. If someone is saying, "I don't like it" no big deal. No need for anyone to get defensive or aggressive, this is an intellectual discussion (despite what some members try to turn it into). Steele down.:thumbsup:

Well since you sent me some bait via PM, here I am.

My original points stand. The circumcision of the discussion by the OP deliberately craps on the very issues that are of primary concern on CALguns. If somebody wants to slobber all over this arm and cartridge, whose best aspects are UNAVAILABLE to us in CA, there are plenty of other forums out there to discuss it on. Not only that, but forums dedicated to it.

What the OP did is akin to somebody going to a F-Body forum and demanding to talk about ricers.

So enjoy masturbating about a barrel length and ammo we can't legally have in CA, but don't send me bull**** PMs about it.

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 10:30 AM
All the data 'out there' comes from our test BBL. Our BBL shows us a pressure of 48,000 psi, +-. The FN BBL is rated for 50,000 psi nominal. We had to run pressure up to 105,000 to rupture the BBL.

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 10:34 AM
My original points stand...So enjoy masturbating about a barrel length and ammo we can't legally have in CA, but don't send me bull**** PMs about it.

I'm inclined to believe that you didn't read, or understand, the point of the conversation. THe OP asked about people's opinion as to the effectiveness of the cartridge.

And where you get the idea that you can't get our ammunition in California is beyond me.

It looks as though you're a pilot. I think I recognize the hills surrounding Edwards in your photo. I would think that a pilot would have the critical thinking skills to thoroughly understand the topic of the conversation before jumping in with the attitude that you did.

Although, knowing pilots the way I do, and especially test pilots, cockyness usually is their dominant personality trait, so I really shouldn't be surprised...

Yeah, your message raised my hackles.

xxxx
02-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Well since you sent me some bait via PM, here I am.

My original points stand. The circumcision of the discussion by the OP deliberately craps on the very issues that are of primary concern on CALguns. If somebody wants to slobber all over this arm and cartridge, whose best aspects are UNAVAILABLE to us in CA, there are plenty of other forums out there to discuss it on. Not only that, but forums dedicated to it.

What the OP did is akin to somebody going to a F-Body forum and demanding to talk about ricers.

So enjoy masturbating about a barrel length and ammo we can't legally have in CA, but don't send me bull**** PMs about it.

For the sake of argument lets not include CA gun laws in this topic due to the fact that someone will stand up and say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THEN 10 ROUNDS!" or bash on the platform because it is not CA compliant

My first post - I PMed you because you were "thread crapping" - you have nothing to contribute and you're making ridiculous statements, I wanted to alert you that I took offense to your public statements. I think you should be reprimanded for your posts, there is no need to add vulgarity into a discussion about the effectiveness (or lack their of) of a round. Out of respect for people who want to gain more knowledge/opinions/data of the 5.7x28mm round I ask you not to post in this thread again.

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 11:20 AM
He won't be posting on this forum again... He's been banned.

IceMan711
02-19-2009, 12:54 PM
Alright! Drama!!

Back on topic...

I surmise that the whole .22mag thing came from this dude, Chuck Hawks. I've seen his article referred to several times.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/5-7x28_cop_killer.htm

I can see that his intention here is to down play the potency of the 5.7, not from bias, but just the nature of the article. Their is a wider margin in velocity numbers that what he is representing, probably because 5.7 ammunition has been evolving.

That being said, it can't be denied that the rounds are similar and that comparisons should be made. I find it little puzzling how the WMR is considered only good for squirrels, but the 5.7 is the new hottest cop killer man stopper due to a modest gain in velocity. Is the WMR more effective than we think, or is the 5.7 less effective than we think? Maybe both? Maybe I'm way off base?

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 1:58 PM
I'd not like to be shot with a .22 mag...

The only comparison that can be made between the two is by stating that .22 magnum is 20 - 85% less energous (factoring in all the ammunition choices from both FN and ELITE) from a 26" rifle BBL than 5.7x28mm from a 5" pistol. 22 mag also sufferes from poor performance due to a lack of available high-technology bullets.

THere are several pistols on the market (revolvers) that are chambered in .22 magnum; many people carry them for SD. I would if that's all I had. But I'd rather have something more potent, like 5.7x28mm.

5.7 is not the be all/end all. It has its place. Those who need a full caliber wounding potential with reduced recoil are the primary purchasers of the pistol.

Anyway, I'm very fond of the old saying "You may scoff at a .22, but you'll never do it when its pointed at your face."

SDgarrick
02-19-2009, 2:19 PM
"You may scoff at a .22, but you'll never do it when its pointed at your face."

That brought a smile to my face.

wash
02-19-2009, 2:57 PM
I bought a PS90, but not for ballistic performance, it will get Dianne Feinstein's knickers a twist, especially when I get the thumb hole filled in and make it featureless with a detachable magazine.

I'll add a laser, just because.

technique
02-19-2009, 3:11 PM
FN factory ammunition has 20% more energy when fired from a 5" BBL than .22 mag when fired from a 26" BBL.

Ours has between 60% and 80% additional energy over .22 mag (fired from a 26" BBL) when fired from the Five-seveN pistol.

thats impressive....:thumbsup:

I happened to like the 5.7 pistol. My first experience shooting one was a blast.

newtothis
02-19-2009, 6:14 PM
[QUOTE=RJ Herle;2058871]There are no commercial producers of '5.56 NATO' ammunition. 5.56 NATO exceeds SAAMI pressure guidelines, and no insurer in the US will indemnify a manufacturer who makes, or reloads, to 5.56 NATO standards. Not to mention that there are no commercial dies manufactured. .223 Remington is the commercial equivelant, but do NOT confuse the two, as they are completely different cartridges.

5.56 NATO has a thicker brass case, reducing internal volume and increasing pressure (this is good for durability of the cartridge and to ensure full and complete powder combustion in a range of tempatures and climates), and a longer neck. SAAMI lists 5.56 NATO as being "UNSAFE when used in a .223 chamber." I agree. Pressures spike dramatically when the neck of the brass is crammed into the leade of the chamber, and I've seen several AR KB's due to using NATO ammunition in a Remington chamber.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with this conversation. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

QUOTE]


This new to me (I've lots to learn). Does it follow that the typical AR we might put together - with commercially availble parts - will not safely handle NATO rounds?

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 6:22 PM
There are three types of standard chambers.

1. 5.56 NATO which will fire anything you put in it.

2. .223 Remington which will fire .223 Remington ONLY. All commercial loads for .223 are .223 Remington in nature. This chamber will NOT fire 5.56 NATO. The neck of the brass will cram into the leade of the chamber. The brass will become stuck in the chamber, and if you can get the bolt to close, the pressures will spike dramatically.. and unsafely.

3. Then there's the .223 Wylde chamber.. Do a little research.. :)

Most AR's out there have either a NATO chamber, or what's known as a 'hybrid chamber.' This means that it will fire .223 or 5.56 NATO reliably, with no danger, and with only negligible loss in accuracy. Generally, firing a .223 Remington cartridge from a NATO chamber causes a degridation of accuracy. However the hybrids do a pretty good job of lessening the loss. i don't know how, because I've never really cared enough to look into it all that much.

There are a number of guns out there, typically target in nature, that use a true .223 chamber. You must not try to use 5.56 ammo in those guns; dangerous things happen when you do.

I hope I answered your question.

-RH

newtothis
02-19-2009, 6:27 PM
You did. Thanks. I looked up the Rock River Arms NM upper - which I happen to own:43: - and damned if it doesn't have a Wylde chamber. I can handle the NATO round:D

saki302
02-19-2009, 8:00 PM
RJ- any discounts for calguns members? :D

One thing many people forget when comparing short barreled .223s and the 5.7 is one was designed specifically to be fired out of short barrels (5.7). The .223 was designed as a rifle cartridge, and a lot of powder (and thus power) is wasted as flash and unburnt waste (though it makes a fun light show at night).

As far as comparing to .22 magnum- out of a pistol it is no contest. For one thing, 5.7 has a lot more felt recoil, and thus is imparting more momentum into the projectile. .22 magnum is also a much better rifle cartridge than a pistol cartridge.

-Dave

RJ Herle
02-19-2009, 8:27 PM
Unforutnately, we cannot offer any discounts at this time. We're perpetually back-ordered more than 2 months, due to the political situation, and we just can't keep up with the demand that we have.

I really wish that we could offer discounts based upon forum membersip; however that would really piss off our current customers who have been patiently awaiting shipments that they placed orders for quite awhile ago.

jrsportssupply
02-19-2009, 9:09 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread, but I've sent an email to you folks about becoming a dealer for your products.

RJ Herle
02-20-2009, 5:09 AM
You may want to call the office and talk to Jay Wolf; He's our President. 815.814.0847

We are so stinking back-ordered at the moment that it could be several months before you saw a single round of 5.7x28mm (although .223, .308, .40 S&W, 10mm, 45 ACP, .30-30, .30-06, and 7.5x55 Swiss are available 10 days after ordering).

We are just beginning the process of manufacturing our own brass; we expect to have brass production up and full-speed in about 2 months. When we are finally up to speed on making our own brass, we should be able to catch up on all of our backorders within weeks, and finally get ahead enough to take on stocking dealers.

-RH

Greg-Dawg
02-20-2009, 9:24 AM
What's up with the blue tip?

http://www.jandcsales.com/pictures/57x2840gr_c.jpg

RJ Herle
02-20-2009, 9:41 AM
Its a 40 grain, lead core, projectile with a blue acetyl resin tip. The tip increases the effeciency of the bullet travelling through air, and initiates expansion of the bullet when it strikes the target.

Its identical to the standard Hornady 40 grain V-Max bullet; the only difference being the pigmentation of the acetly resin tip. Commercial V-Max bullets have a red tip, these are blue. They are identical in every other way.

gunrun45
02-20-2009, 10:36 AM
RJ,
Making your own brass!!!
Sweet jeasus :eek:
My dreams have come true. I have been kicking myself for not ordering a case of your ammo back when it was more readily available. Now I might actually see my dream come true (we need a tear trickling down a smiley cheek mods) :D

RJ Herle
02-20-2009, 12:39 PM
We've been working very hard for the last year to bring virgin brass to market as a component. :)

eccvets
02-20-2009, 9:41 PM
if you dont think its a good round, try standing in front of it and not sh*tting your pants!

Xerxes
02-20-2009, 11:06 PM
It seems that the 5.7x28mm round is very controversial. As some of you might know I am the proud owner of a PS90 (out of state).

I would like to hear what you all think of the ballistics of the 5.7x28mm round coming out of the FN FiveSeveN/10" barrel of P90 and 16" barrel of PS90.

For the sake of argument lets not include CA gun laws in this topic due to the fact that someone will stand up and say, "YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THEN 10 ROUNDS!" or bash on the platform because it is not CA compliant.

So let's hear it - what do you think of 5.7x28mm?


Nothing but a pea shooter.

Something between an airsoft and a 22LR I thinkem.

Why not get a real gun?

I hear that thans to obamunism that even airsoft is getting hit with a gun run buy and is out of stock with a 8 week back laog.

Get a real gun dude.

The EBR is cool, the Garand from CMP is really cool.

Keep looking for something that really goes bang!