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View Full Version : Question about ffl fees at gunshows


B.D.Dubloon
02-15-2009, 4:14 PM
I did a ppt at a gunshow recently and was charged 45 bucks. I know that in stores they are only supposed to charge 35 but they can charge whatever they want if you are having the gun shipped to them. I was wondering if there was a similar thing allowing them to charge more at gun shows since they will have to take it to their shop for me to pick up?
Thanks,
BDD

rue
02-15-2009, 4:18 PM
Nope ppts are 35 max by law. Contact the ffl and request your 10 dollars back or you're reporting it to the doj

B.D.Dubloon
02-15-2009, 4:33 PM
Is there a tactful way of doing that? I am thinking that the best way to go about it is when I go to pick up the gun, mention to them that state law only allows for a fee of 35 dollars max, and that I would be obligated to report them to the BBB and DOJ unless they remedied their mistake. I can't possibly imagine that any ffl is not aware that there is a cap for ppt charges, so I don't feel too bad about demanding my money back. If they get pissed, is there any way they can not give me the gun, or is it mine (legally in the govt database) once the 10 days is up?

ke6guj
02-15-2009, 4:42 PM
Is there a tactful way of doing that? I am thinking that the best way to go about it is when I go to pick up the gun, mention to them that state law only allows for a fee of 35 dollars max, and that I would be obligated to report them to the BBB and DOJ unless they remedied their mistake. I can't possibly imagine that any ffl is not aware that there is a cap for ppt charges, so I don't feel too bad about demanding my money back. If they get pissed, is there any way they can not give me the gun, or is it mine (legally in the govt database) once the 10 days is up?They know, or should know, that they are limited to $35 max for a PPT. No addtional fees are allowed for a PPT. Remember that standard DROSes are not limited, and neither are transfers.

Just wait until they hand you your firearm and then tell them they overcharged them and you want a refund. Then they can't take it back.

B.D.Dubloon
02-15-2009, 4:44 PM
They know, or should know, that they are limited to $35 max for a PPT. No addtional fees are allowed for a PPT. Remember that standard DROSes are not limited, and neither are transfers.

Just wait until they hand you your firearm and then tell them they overcharged them and you want a refund. Then they can't take it back.

Thanks for the info. Can you please explain to me the differences between a ppt, a standard dros, and a transfer? I am not sure what the difference between ppt and transfer are.

Thanks,
BDD

ke6guj
02-15-2009, 4:50 PM
OK, standard DROS is when you actually buy the firearm from the dealer. Most charge $25 for that, but can charge an addtional processing fee if they want.

A PPT DROS would be when you are buying a firearm from another CA-resident and you both go to the dealer at the same time to do the PPT paperwork. They can charge $25 for the DROS + $10 for their time. Total of $35. No other fees allowed.

A transfer DROS would be when you have a firearm shipped to the dealer, or buy from an out-of-state resident who hand delivers the firearm to the dealer, or if you bought a firearm at the gunshow from another dealer and want to use a local "transfer dealer". All of those would be examples of DROSes that do not fall under the PPT regulations, and the dealer is not limited in what ever transfer fee he wishs to charge.

B.D.Dubloon
02-15-2009, 4:53 PM
Thanks, that was very clearly explained, what I did at the gun show was clearly a ppt dros and should have only been 35. That's what I thought.

BDD

OK, standard DROS is when you actually buy the firearm from the dealer. Most charge $25 for that, but can charge an addtional processing fee if they want.

A PPT DROS would be when you are buying a firearm from another CA-resident and you both go to the dealer at the same time to do the PPT paperwork. They can charge $25 for the DROS + $10 for their time. Total of $35. No other fees allowed.

A transfer DROS would be when you have a firearm shipped to the dealer, or buy from an out-of-state resident who hand delivers the firearm to the dealer, or if you bought a firearm at the gunshow from another dealer and want to use a local "transfer dealer". All of those would be examples of DROSes that do not fall under the PPT regulations, and the dealer is not limited in what ever transfer fee he wishs to charge.

donbing
02-15-2009, 5:42 PM
I understand that the law limits a PPT to $25dros + $10fee. That being said...people should be grateful that there's someone at the show that would be willing to do the PPT. Yeah, maybe he's overcharging but at the same time wouldn't it be a really crappy show if there were no one at the show to PPT for you? The option would be to leave the show and drive to the local gun store, if they're open on Sunday, or make arrangements to meet up with the buyer at a later date, if he still feels like selling. If I were you I'd appreciate that dealer's being there to do all your PPT paperwork for a mere $10...maybe a tip wouldn't be a bad idea either. Go complain to DOJ and I'll bet he won't even show up at the next gun show. Or maybe next time he'll tell you "I'm sorry, I didn't bring any blank DROS worksheets" or "I'm out of spare 4473's" so I can't help you. Then the shows will really turn into beef jerky and Indian jewerly flea markets.

Overcharging isn't right and the charge should be refunded. But some of you folk need to realize that an FFL has to do a lot of paper just to accomodate your PPT urges. Kudos for any FFL willing to attend a gun show to display and sell a few guns out of inventory, working both days of a weekend, then coming back with more guns that brought because everyone at the show hit him up to do a PPT "because it's required that the FFL accomodate PPT". That's reason enough not to work a California gun show for a lot of FFLs. The upside is that he'll get a bunch of people into the store in 10 days to pick up their guns and maybe they'll still have enought $ left to buy something from his store or will at least remember who took care of them at the show.

I'd also consider this...is the transfer indeed a PPT since it's at a gun show and NOT at the dealer's licensed premises? Can a dealer charge more because it's not a face to face PPT that occurs at his place of business?

Mssr. Eleganté
02-15-2009, 5:55 PM
I understand that the law limits a PPT to $25dros + $10fee. That being said...people should be grateful that there's someone at the show that would be willing to do the PPT....

Overcharging isn't right and the charge should be refunded. But some of you folk need to realize that an FFL has to do a lot of paper just to accomodate your PPT urges.

PPT's are a lot of work for an FFL and they are a pain in the butt for the buyer and seller as well. They suck for everybody involved. But they are part of being a gun owner in California and they are part of running a gun store in California. They shouldn't be required, but they are.

So how about gun owners be grateful for FFL's and FFL's be grateful for customers, we all follow the PPT laws to the letter and nobody tries to steal any money from anybody else.

Waiting ten days and paying $35 for a transfer that should be free is a big hassle for me. That doesn't mean I should shoplift a can of Gunscrubber from the FFL while I'm there just to make the transaction "worth my while". And the FFL shouldn't steal an extra $10 from me just to make the transaction "worth his while".

donbing
02-15-2009, 6:11 PM
And the FFL shouldn't steal an extra $10 from me just to make the transaction "worth his while".[/QUOTE]

Mssr Elegante,
no argument about the overcharge. I did state that I believe that it should be refunded. Overcharging is illegal, as is shoplifting. And, as long as the PPT people become customers, then it's not that bad a trade off.

bohoki
02-15-2009, 7:22 PM
if i was an ffl i would tell people to come to the shop to do the transfer for $35 unless they bought something from me then i would do it there (like say a magazine or holster or other item)

Fjold
02-15-2009, 7:36 PM
The FFL's don't go to gunshows just to take a couple of guns there and do transfers for people out of the goodness of their hearts. They go there to sell stuff and make money. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be there.

B.D.Dubloon
02-15-2009, 7:50 PM
What all work is there for him to do past what I saw him do (pass me a couple sheets of paper, pass one to the seller, write out a receipt, pass the gun to someone to put it away)? I don't think that getting 10 bucks for doing that is a bad deal for the ffl. I am wondering how much work there is on top of that which is behind the scenes that I don't know about.

BDD

Mssr. Eleganté
02-16-2009, 12:38 AM
Mssr Elegante,
no argument about the overcharge. I did state that I believe that it should be refunded. Overcharging is illegal, as is shoplifting. And, as long as the PPT people become customers, then it's not that bad a trade off.

It just sounded like you were asking us to cut the overcharging FFL's some slack, because they are providing a needed service for us.

But by that logic, FFL's should look the other way when we shoplift from them, if we are otherwise good customers. If they turn us all in for shoplifting, then they won't have anymore good customers left.

Serpentine
02-16-2009, 7:19 AM
What all work is there for him to do past what I saw him do (pass me a couple sheets of paper, pass one to the seller, write out a receipt, pass the gun to someone to put it away)? I don't think that getting 10 bucks for doing that is a bad deal for the ffl. I am wondering how much work there is on top of that which is behind the scenes that I don't know about.

BDD

Well, I'm sort of glad you asked this question. Having spent some time on the other side of things (01FFL Dealer) for a while, and please don't get me wrong here - I love what I do - but often wonder why the heck am I doing this! In retrospect, I sure do appreciate and thank the FFL's in this state that have taken on their tasks of helping me to legally obtain, trade, and sell firearms over the last 40 some odd years!

There are a few "behind the scene" responsibilities that everyone should be aware of when dealing with the ever vanishing FFL's in California:

1. Responsibility for keeping absolute meticulous paperwork and records (by the piles) that are heavily audited by several (with all due respect) very serious minded government authorities. Check, double check, and check it once more again because 'they' really do check every pen stroke on every piece of paper.

2. Computer entry of the DROS worksheet data to the DOJ, manually, with 100% accuracy always in mind.

3. Log in and out of the A&D books. Do it NOW!

3. Rent for gun show tables.

4. Rent for licensed premises.

5. ATF license, CFID DOJ license, Certificate Of Eligibility, BOE re-sellers permit, CFLC for Authorized shipping requirement, City business license, special permits (hi-cap for instance), special signs, etc.

6. Begging town and city officials to allow you to do all this in their predominantly anti-gun constituency.

7. Annual inspection fees. Time out for inspections.

8. Premises theft security: window bars, alarm system, and monthly monitoring fees (all required).

9. Liability insurance.

10. Errors and Omissions insurance.

11. Heavy duty safes for safely storing your PPT firearms for 10 days. Some of you guys wait until the 29th day to pick up your guns.

12. Transport from gun show to licensed premises and in some cases - back to gun show for delivery. Better stay healthy and in shape.

13. Got to handle these guns with kid gloves. God forbid you should drop, damage, or scratch a customer's gun.

14. Computer and Internet connection fees (and maintenance).

15. Taking your wife out to dinner to make up for the 16 hour work days and whole weekends being spent away from her while PPT transferring, and hopefully selling some inventory guns if there's some time or consumer interest.

16. Keeping current on the unbelievably massive multi-jurisdictional law code and ordinances so you don't lose your whole business, livelihood, and maybe your freedom, over 'a crack you didn't see in the sidewalk.'

17. Oh yes, as if there is not enough STRESS yet - everyone wants it NOW!

18. Everyone wants it for CHEAP!

19. Did the dealer make any profit on the $35 PPT fee? After income taxes, that's about $6.50 to the dealer - $25 of it went to the state for the background check. How many $6.50 PPT's do I need to do to earn, say $2500 take home pay a month? [Answer: 519, or 26 PPT's per work day!]

20. How much is left over for the mortgage payment, meals, utility bills, medical insurance, automobile costs, fuel, advertising, displays, retirement plan, disability coverage, etc., etc? Oh yes, we are in California!

21. Got employees? Add $$$ to your overhead.

22. Legal fees!

23. Invoicing, bookkeeping, and accounting costs.

24. What about the bad guys that want to steal your guns and money?

25. What if someone commits a crime with one of these PPT'd guns? Your dealer doesn't get paid for the investigation time and court appearances, etc.

26. What about the recession, the new aministration, and the fact that the distributors have virtually no guns in stock at the moment to sell to dealers?

27. Did your dealer have to compete with out-of-state Internet dealers and sellers today, where the cost of doing business is about 25-75% less than the California based counterpart!

28. Your CA dealer is lucky if he makes $50 profit on the average, dealer inventory, "new gun" transaction. It's the "manufacturers, "Buyers Groups," and distributors that take their cuts out of any real profits before the retail dealer level.

29. Don't forget your FFL is operating here in INDIAN COUNTRY! [Politically speaking].

Again, not trying to whine or complain here. I'm still doing it because I'm a sportsman, 2nd Amendment supporter, collector, and enthusiast (despite what many say in warning; "it's just plain stupid and/or crazy to be a CA FFL!"). I'm just trying to shed some light on the "behind the scenes" FFL duties and responsibilties.



.

EOD Guy
02-16-2009, 8:32 AM
Everyone agrees that charging more than $35.00 for a PPT is not legal. The problem is, the DOJ won't do anything about it. I know there have been hundreds of complaints to DOJ and, as far as I can see, no action taken against the offending dealers.

I personally know of one shop that was recently audited by DOJ and the inspector told of the overcharging. Nothing was done and the shop is still charging $45.00 and imposing limited hours for PPTs.

donbing
02-16-2009, 1:13 PM
It just sounded like you were asking us to cut the overcharging FFL's some slack, because they are providing a needed service for us.

But by that logic, FFL's should look the other way when we shoplift from them, if we are otherwise good customers. If they turn us all in for shoplifting, then they won't have anymore good customers left.

I'm not saying that anyone should cut a dealer slack for overcharging. It's not right and its against the rules anyway. No FFL should be able to get away with charging more that what's legal, I'm with you on it.

The shop that I'm affiliated with charges the flat $25 dros +$10 fee and that's it. The $10 doesn't come close to the added burden of paper but we still do it without recourse. We've only refused a very few guys (yes, it happens), usually when they spout off about what they're going to do with a firearm once they have it. There are certain comments that we can't ignore even if made in jest.

As for shoplifting...don't taze me man!

fairfaxjim
02-16-2009, 1:20 PM
Simple solution - If you like getting illegally gouged, keep doing buisness with the gougers. If you don't, vote with your wallet - don't do PPT's there, and DON'T BUY A DAMN THING FROM THAT DEALER!!

If it makes you feel better complaining to a do nothing government operation that is run by tools of the Brady campaign, then go ahead an file a complaint. I think it can be said without getting too much of an argument here, the DOJ people in there now would just as soon have as many dis-incentives to people purchasing firearms as possible, and letting the dealers hike the mandated PPT fees indirectly by doing nothing about it suits there purpose.

Whine or walk - those are really the choices.

B.D.Dubloon
02-16-2009, 2:25 PM
With the selection of ffl's I had to work with, to not do business with this one would have been shooting myself in the foot. I certainly won't be doing any more business with them save picking up my rifle unless they give me my ten bucks back (or 10 bucks in ammo or something).

That is too bad that the DOJ doesn't enforce the law, I will try calling them and see what they say.

I'm going to whine:p

BDD

Simple solution - If you like getting illegally gouged, keep doing buisness with the gougers. If you don't, vote with your wallet - don't do PPT's there, and DON'T BUY A DAMN THING FROM THAT DEALER!!

If it makes you feel better complaining to a do nothing government operation that is run by tools of the Brady campaign, then go ahead an file a complaint. I think it can be said without getting too much of an argument here, the DOJ people in there now would just as soon have as many dis-incentives to people purchasing firearms as possible, and letting the dealers hike the mandated PPT fees indirectly by doing nothing about it suits there purpose.

Whine or walk - those are really the choices.