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dwa
02-14-2009, 11:54 PM
in your opinion what are some great guns that never made it
ie a hunting rifle or a pistol that was great but never became popular or a military rifle/machine gun/pistol that never was adopted and why you believe them to be great

grammaton76
02-14-2009, 11:57 PM
Bushmaster M17S never picked up like it should've. Very solidly built, nice bullpup design, and it takes STANAG mags. I think I'd have preferred one over an FS-2000 actually.

CZ-97B should have been the first of many, many 45ACP pistols from CZ, but it seems to have been the end of the line in 45ACP.

The Armalite AR-180 was an interesting design that never really took off, although I've never gotten to shoot one. Gas piston and plenty of interesting history behind it.

VZ-52 rifle didn't set the world on fire, although it should've. For its era, it was remarkable - detachable mags, a little bit more than 7.62x39mm firepower (x45mm). Gas operated. Really neat design.

Deadred7o7
02-15-2009, 12:15 AM
.32 Win Sp. in the old 94'

CHS
02-15-2009, 12:37 AM
Marlin Camp 9
Marlin Camp 45
Ruger PC9
Ruger PC4
Ruger Deerslayer? (basically, a .44mag mini-14)
Gyrojet :)

Steyr_223
02-15-2009, 12:42 AM
I agree with the VZ-52 rifle..

I also think the Galil got the shaft since uncle sugar supplied M16s on the cheap to the IDF. The Galil was evolution to the AK design; better sights, folding stock and use of modern polymers..Same with the Valmet 62/76/95

Dr Rockso
02-15-2009, 12:44 AM
Johnson 1941 recoil operated rifle. Don't know if it was particularly suited for being a battle rifle, but an interesting design that outperformed the Garand in some areas.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl20-e.htm

ivanimal
02-15-2009, 12:46 AM
5MM remington Magnum years ahead of its time.

Anything Roy Weatherby was into.

slowjonn
02-15-2009, 12:48 AM
French Chauchat! :shock:

CHS
02-15-2009, 12:55 AM
5MM remington Magnum years ahead of its time.


Someone really needs to do a 5mm Remington Magnum AR upper and mags. Aguila is making the ammo, and it's rimfire so we can have features and drop mags AND go below 30" overall.

five.five-six
02-15-2009, 12:59 AM
, and it's rimfire so we can have features and drop mags AND go below 30" overall.


that might have to be an interesting bolt

CHS
02-15-2009, 1:02 AM
that might have to be an interesting bolt

Not much different than the existing .22lr conversions. Just a little bigger.

The AR57 upper would be a good conversion candidate since it's just a delayed blowback action and uses a cartridge more powerful, but similar to a 5mm remington mag. And again, since it's rimfire we can pretty much ignore the AW laws while staying inside federal legal limits.

ivanimal
02-15-2009, 1:26 AM
5MM, 17 HMR, 22 Magnum, 22 lr short, and blank

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/ivanimal/5mmremmag001.jpg?t=1234689857


22, old 5MM, new 5mm and 223
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/ivanimal/5mm039.jpg

ysr_racer
02-15-2009, 5:08 AM
New 5mm? Are they making ammo again?

caldude
02-15-2009, 9:18 AM
FN49 - The design was done pre-WWII, but the designers had to evacuate Belgium because of the German invasion. If the British (or someone else) had picked up the design, they would have had a battle rifle that could have rivaled the Garand.

Once the gun was produced post-WWII, semi-auto rifle designs were already on their way out.

Crusader
02-15-2009, 11:17 AM
The Spencer Rifle. It was, in my opinion, much more effective than the Sharps and the Henry. It had a self-contained cartridge that beat out the Sharps, but was more convenient to load than the Henry. It should have and could have been the Union's main battle rifle during the Civil War.

ivanimal
02-15-2009, 11:24 AM
New 5mm? Are they making ammo again?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM079-5.html

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/AMM-079.jpg

dieselpower
02-15-2009, 11:26 AM
Bushmaster M17S never picked up like it should've. Very solidly built, nice bullpup design, and it takes STANAG mags. I think I'd have preferred one over an FS-2000 actually.
CZ-97B should have been the first of many, many 45ACP pistols from CZ, but it seems to have been the end of the line in 45ACP.

The Armalite AR-180 was an interesting design that never really took off, although I've never gotten to shoot one. Gas piston and plenty of interesting history behind it.

VZ-52 rifle didn't set the world on fire, although it should've. For its era, it was remarkable - detachable mags, a little bit more than 7.62x39mm firepower (x45mm). Gas operated. Really neat design.


I agree that the M17S should have been better received. It had some flaws that needed to be worked out, but it was a great weapon. I am sorry for my ignorance...

What is "STANAG"? The M17S uses AR15 mags, so is that acronym for ? I looked it up, standard agreement. But AR15 is easier to say, and more specific.

Tarn_Helm
02-15-2009, 11:47 AM
I really like the a few especially if they had a larger capacity mag Ruger .44mag carbine. And 10/22 in .22 mag
[bold added]

+1

Yep.

Good short range loads with lots of punch and little recoil.

You can always get one of these in .22 mag. (https://www.volquartsen.com/category/20-rimfire-rifles/11-1022-magnum-action)

CHS
02-15-2009, 12:10 PM
What is "STANAG"? The M17S uses AR15 mags, so is that acronym for ? I looked it up, standard agreement. But AR15 is easier to say, and more specific.

There are AR15 mags, and there are STANAG-compliant mags. They are different.

AR15 mags will not always work in STANAG weapons, but a STANAG mag should always work in an AR15.

The magpul pmag is an AR15 mag, but NOT STANAG-compliant. The new Magpul Emag is STANAG compliant.

AR15 is only easier to say and more specific if you're talking about the AR15, and nothing more.

USGI mags for the M16 are STANAG and there are many other guns out there that use STANAG mags that are not AR15/M16's like the AUG + NATO stock, FN SCAR, British L85, etc. I'm pretty sure an "AR15" mag like the PMAG will not work in an L85.

dwa
02-15-2009, 1:15 PM
the johnson lmg and its evil twin the fg 42
stoner 63

Pvt. Cowboy
02-15-2009, 1:24 PM
Bushmaster M17S never picked up like it should've. Very solidly built, nice bullpup design, and it takes STANAG mags.

heheh... Those were really terrible shooters.

motorhead
02-15-2009, 3:20 PM
johnson lost to the garand because the original prototype required lubricated ammo. dirt magnet.
spencer never took off mainly due to war dept. beancounters. after the war it was overshadowed by the henry mainly because it's ammo was unreliable.

BigRich
02-15-2009, 4:57 PM
heheh... Those were really terrible shooters.

Yes, I agree. The one I had was not particularly accurate and if a whole 30 round mag was dumped through it the forearm (aluminum extension of the receiver) became too hot to hold. The trigger was horrible. I had to get a replacement trigger link as mine was poorly manufactured and would pop out of it's hole each time the gun was fired. Dissasembly was required for another shot. I sold mine rather than register it. The charging handle was kind of goofy too.

I'll vote for the Australian Automatic Arms SAP pistol.

Springfield45
02-15-2009, 5:42 PM
The Winchester 1873 Musket Military rifle. It did not have the power of the 45-70 so the army did not want it. Later model 1894's would have been great military weapons all so but the military wanted pointy bullets and they are dangerous in a tubular magazine.

The 1899 Savage lever action as a military rifle would have been a faster shooting rifle than the 1892 Krag rifles.

The .276 Pedersen M1 Garand. During development of the M1 General MaCarthur made the decision that it should be chambered in the 30-06 round because of vast supplies of 30-06 ammo all ready in inventory.

The HK G11 case-less ammo assault rifle because it is just cool. It had all most no recoil (because of a rotary bolt) and held 60 rounds in a P90 stile magazine.

Blue
02-15-2009, 5:45 PM
I can't believe nobody said krinker plinker yet :D

I wish there were more M14's in service though.

CSACANNONEER
02-23-2009, 5:59 AM
Revolving rifles! I've always been facinated by them.

7x57
02-23-2009, 9:41 AM
T
The .276 Pedersen M1 Garand. During development of the M1 General MaCarthur made the decision that it should be chambered in the 30-06 round because of vast supplies of 30-06 ammo all ready in inventory.

I was going to say that. It's a little conflicting since I love the semi-auto Garand just as it is in .30-06. But the M14 might have had usable full-auto in .276 Pedersen, and we might have ended up with a better-balanced carbine round (as the British tried to push with .280 British).

7x57

HotRails
02-23-2009, 3:38 PM
Not really a firearm per se, but a few months ago I shot a friends 25-06 rifle and Im surprised that this cartridge is not more common, it had a nice flat trajectory with a more manageable recoil than the 30-06.

mblat
02-23-2009, 4:07 PM
SVT40 never really made it. If WW2 had started year later Soviets would probably produced 30 million of those and be the second army in WW2 armed with semi-automatic weapons.

Sampachi
02-23-2009, 4:44 PM
As an owner of a Vz-52, I have to agree :D It's a neat rifle.

I wish the P&R Medusa made it. Talk about a unique revolver and accurate to boot!

M. Sage
02-23-2009, 6:46 PM
I was going to say that. It's a little conflicting since I love the semi-auto Garand just as it is in .30-06. But the M14 might have had usable full-auto in .276 Pedersen, and we might have ended up with a better-balanced carbine round (as the British tried to push with .280 British).

7x57

Actually, that was the part that MacArthur did get rid of; the detachable magazine. It "didn't look soldierly" and the magazine would be in the way for drill. I don't think it was Big Mac who shot down the .276 round, though.

dwa
02-23-2009, 7:14 PM
Actually, that was the part that MacArthur did get rid of; the detachable magazine. It "didn't look soldierly" and the magazine would be in the way for drill. I don't think it was Big Mac who shot down the .276 round, though.

i was under the impression his fingerprints were all over dropping the .276 for the reason that there were millions of .30-06 in the inventory already.