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heyjerr
02-11-2009, 10:24 PM
I have a relative who is an ex-felon. His crime did not involve firearms or violence. I'm not going into further details because it shouldn't pertain to the discussion, and it's an embarrassment, so please don't pry. I am not condoning what he did or defending him.

I merely want to determine whether or not it is legal for him to shoot a gun at a range if he is supervised (i.e. not the possessor).

Thoughts?

ShooterMcGavin
02-11-2009, 10:28 PM
It's not legal. Whether or not he gets caught is another thing.

CCWFacts
02-11-2009, 10:29 PM
Unless his felony has been cleared from his record somehow (reduced to a misdemeanor or he was granted a pardon), the answer is a very clear NO.

tgriffin
02-11-2009, 10:38 PM
^ agree with above

CCWFacts
02-11-2009, 10:47 PM
And btw, getting a felony cleared from his record can be a pain, can be expensive, can take a lot of time... but it's probably very seriously worth considering.

As for friends with non-violent embarrassing felonies, I have a friend of a friend who got a federal felony for being a sysadmin at an offshore gaming operation. What he was doing was legal in the country he was doing it in (he lived on an island). But they decided to charge all the US citizens involved with it, and they offered him a plea bargain: accept a felony conviction and you get no prison time. He had no money to fight so that's what he did. He's one the mildest, gentlest people I know. So yeah, there are some people out there who have ended up with felonies and who are embarrassed about it because it doesn't make any sense for who they are. This guy I know, the prospect of making some money while living in an island "paradise" swayed his judgment and he didn't think through that it's illegal for any US citizen to be involved in that, even doing low-level stuff like running a Unix system, and for whatever political reason, offshore gambling was a hot topic that year, and so they got him. Never mind that there are thousands of unsolved murder cases, there are violent criminals who get lesser plea bargains, and so on... gambling prosecutions were in fashion that year and he got it.

Anyway... it's worth thinking about the effort to get such things taken off the record. For my friend-of-a-friend there, he's really stuck because it's a federal felony and his only route is a presidential pardon, which are extremely rare. Still, it's worth pursuing it. For this person you know, if it's a state-level conviction, he may have more practical options and he should at least look into them, and maybe make it a life goal to get his record cleared. It might be easier than he realizes (or maybe not).

CSDGuy
02-11-2009, 10:48 PM
Outside of some extremely specific circumstances (coded in the law), in the scenario you propose, he'd be a "Felon in Possession"... yet another Felony.

SwissFluCase
02-11-2009, 10:51 PM
Not only no, but the offense could possibly put him in prison for a long time. The feds are pushing these cases rather hard, I hear. The prisons must have fresh meat...

It might be worth looking into getting it expunged, reduced, dismissed, pardoned, etc. He should consult an attorney. My take would be that it would be better to clean it up while one can, instead of trying to deal with it in the future after a "get tough on crime" bill makes such an action harder.

Regards,

SwissFluCase

Meplat
02-11-2009, 11:14 PM
I think he can get his "rights", like possessing firearms and voting, reinstated without getting a pardon. The right lawyer and some money are what is needed. Too bad our legale system only works for those with money.

heyjerr
02-11-2009, 11:36 PM
Thanks guys. I thought he just wouldn't be able to own, but I'm glad I checked here first. No range visits for him!!!

FS00008
02-11-2009, 11:47 PM
I was under the impression that a felon could possess "non-firearms" such as pre-1898 Mosin Nagants, BP rifles, etc...?

Quiet
02-11-2009, 11:52 PM
Felons can't possess ammunition in addition to firearms.

FS00008
02-11-2009, 11:53 PM
So what would constitute ammunition with BP?

wildog8812
02-12-2009, 1:16 AM
Not only is he committing a crime, so are you. I am going through the police academy and we talked about this a while back. It goes as far to say that they also may not be able to be around a gun that they can obtain. The example that was told to me was, a police officer was married to an ex felon. He went to bed and put his duty belt and gun away in the closet. Her parole officer came over to do a routine search of the house and saw the gun. She went back to prison, and he got fired and charges brought up on him. Be very careful who you let around your guns.

Seesm
02-12-2009, 1:49 AM
NO ..No guns, No ammo, no fun.

SteveH
02-12-2009, 2:30 AM
Don't confuse ownership and possession like crooks often do.

If you let him shoot your gun he's in possession of it even though you retain ownership.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 8:07 AM
I was under the impression that a felon could possess "non-firearms" such as pre-1898 Mosin Nagants, BP rifles, etc...?

Sure if, they want to get rolled up. These non-firearms are still considered firearms when loaded. If you don't believe me, try pointing a pre '98 weapon at someone while in the commission of a crime. You WILL be convicted of violation several firearms laws. Felons really need to do their own research because they are taking big risks when treading on this ground. Of course, if you knowingly furnish a felon with a firearm, I'm sure you could be in some hot water yourself.

ldivinag
02-12-2009, 8:11 AM
in the book "how to own a gun and stay out of jail", in the 2000 year edition, the author gives a story about a felon who had to use a firearm for self defense.

he states in that case, it was within the SD realm and wasnt charged.

JDoe
02-12-2009, 9:24 AM
in the book "how to own a gun and stay out of jail", in the 2000 year edition, the author gives a story about a felon who had to use a firearm for self defense.

he states in that case, it was within the SD realm and wasnt charged.

Edwards in the story below is an ex-con.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1933220

No charge against him. Good news for gun owners in self defense situation.

http://cbs2.com/local/Diedree.Edward....2.915708.html

No Charges For L.A. Man Who Killed Armed Assailant
LOS ANGELES (AP) ―
Prosecutors will not charge a Los Angeles man who was arrested for allegedly killing a man who was stabbing his girlfriend and her mother.

Prosecutors said Thursday that 29-year-old Diedree Edwards fired a handgun in self-defense and to save the women.

Police said Edwards heard screams on Tuesday from the parking lot of an apartment complex in southwest Los Angeles and found Rhett Wilkins attacking the women with a knife.

Deputy District Attorney David R. Lopez said Edwards grabbed the gun from the older woman's closet and fired three times at Wilkins.

Edwards then fled to a nearby apartment as police arrived and barricaded himself for several hours. He surrendered after police threw tear gas canisters through his window.

Lopez said Edwards had been staying with the women because they had been threatened by Wilkins, the older woman's former boyfriend.

( 2009 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)

Greg-Dawg
02-12-2009, 9:47 AM
If it's a public range, your felon buddy will be filling out and signing a liability waiver that will include the questions: Have you ever been convicted of crime, on probation, slept with Big Bubba, etc. He'll have to answer truthfully and the range officer signing him in will most likely reject his entrance.

motorhead
02-12-2009, 10:12 AM
"possession or control". pre 1898 guns seen to be alright but the ammo restriction kind of kills that. i think bp is ok.

lbdrummer3
02-12-2009, 10:50 AM
Would it be ok if your ex-felon buddy went camping with you and a group of people in the desert where lawful shooting takes place? This individual wouldn't shoot or load mags, just watch. Also, do BLM officers have access to data in the field where they could check if someone was a felon?
Sorry for the thread hijack, this is a very good subject and the answers to this may keep some of us out of trouble.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 10:57 AM
Would it be ok if your ex-felon buddy went camping with you and a group of people in the desert where lawful shooting takes place? This individual wouldn't shoot or load mags, just watch. Also, do BLM officers have access to data in the field where they could check if someone was a felon?
Sorry for the thread hijack, this is a very good subject and the answers to this may keep some of us out of trouble.

If it can be argued that he has access to firearms or ammo then, it is not in his best interest. If there are firearms or ammo anywhere within your camp, most DAs will be able to prove that he had access to them. Yes, BLM LEOs have the same access to personal info as any other LEO.

lbdrummer3
02-12-2009, 11:10 AM
If it can be argued that he has access to firearms or ammo then, it is not in his best interest. If there are firearms or ammo anywhere within your camp, most DAs will be able to prove that he had access to them. Yes, BLM LEOs have the same access to personal info as any other LEO.

Cool, so from the ex-felons perspective, it would be a very bad idea for him to attend. What, if any, issues could the legal firearms owners encounter by the presents of this individual?

garandguy10
02-12-2009, 11:28 AM
"possession or control". pre 1898 guns seen to be alright but the ammo restriction kind of kills that. i think bp is ok.

In the State of California a convicted felon,or qualifying misdemeanor may not possess or control any kind of firearm or ammunition,Primers,Black powder,lead ball or shot,antique firearm or replica firearm or replica of a antique or modern firearm,no pellet guns,BB guns,sling shots,Airsoft,potato cannon or anything that even ressembles any type of firearm,or device capable of launching a projectile. Do not believe me?,call the DOJ and ask them.

YoungGun2
02-12-2009, 11:33 AM
You totally forgot water gun.. :55: ........ Would a super soaker be ok???.......If so maybe felons can take super soakers to the range....:hide:


So what if a felon was an avid hunter prior to the felony, Im sure at some point he would have to have the erg to go hunting at some point right. So what if instead of using a rifle to hunts with, they used a power washer capable of reach as far as a shoot gun?

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AEC1
02-12-2009, 11:44 AM
I have some experiance with this. My father the man who taught me to shoot, and hunt went down the wrong path a while ago and got into some trouble, federal felony. He was allowed to stay with me at my home, however I hade to put a deadbolt lock on my bedroom door, his door, and put my firearms in a safe in my room to satisfy his probation officer. If he had access to the firearms at all he and I were in hot water. Last september I took my 9 year old for his first dove hunt, as my father did me at 9 years old. We ran it by hi Probation officer and nope grandpa couldent go, as while we were sleeping in the tent he would have access... My recomendation stay away from the issue. if you are in doubt ask his Probation officer.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 12:01 PM
Cool, so from the ex-felons perspective, it would be a very bad idea for him to attend. What, if any, issues could the legal firearms owners encounter by the presents of this individual?

I have a funny feeling that they could get you for illegally transfering a firearm to a felon or something like that. For me, and the few felons I know, it's not worth the risk for any of us. It really sucks because I wanted to get one of them into re-enacting in my unit which has several lawyers and LEOs in it. He would have been well supervised and made some good respectible friends, helped educate the public and learn a lot of history himself. Instead, the way the laws are written, a felon should not even go near a re-enactment as a spectator.

In the State of California a convicted felon,or qualifying misdemeanor may not possess or control any kind of firearm or ammunition,Primers,Black powder,lead ball or shot,antique firearm or replica firearm or replica of a antique or modern firearm,no pellet guns,BB guns,sling shots,Airsoft,potato cannon or anything that even ressembles any type of firearm,or device capable of launching a projectile. Do not believe me?,call the DOJ and ask them.

I have called them about this and other things. Of course, we all know that they routinely give about BAD legal advise! But, in this case, I would not put myself or a felon at risk by pushing the envelope here.

ohsmily
02-12-2009, 12:05 PM
Not only is he committing a crime, so are you. I am going through the police academy and we talked about this a while back. It goes as far to say that they also may not be able to be around a gun that they can obtain. The example that was told to me was, a police officer was married to an ex felon. He went to bed and put his duty belt and gun away in the closet. Her parole officer came over to do a routine search of the house and saw the gun. She went back to prison, and he got fired and charges brought up on him. Be very careful who you let around your guns.

What crime would the gun owner be committing? Please provide a citation.

jamesob
02-12-2009, 12:05 PM
I have a relative who is an ex-felon. His crime did not involve firearms or violence. I'm not going into further details because it shouldn't pertain to the discussion, and it's an embarrassment, so please don't pry. I am not condoning what he did or defending him.

I merely want to determine whether or not it is legal for him to shoot a gun at a range if he is supervised (i.e. not the possessor).

Thoughts?ex felon? either he is or he is not a felon.
if he is, he can go watch somebody shoot but cannot hold a weapon. if somehow he got pardoned wich hardly ever happens then yes he can go shooting.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 12:06 PM
I have some experiance with this. My father the man who taught me to shoot, and hunt went down the wrong path a while ago and got into some trouble, federal felony. He was allowed to stay with me at my home, however I hade to put a deadbolt lock on my bedroom door, his door, and put my firearms in a safe in my room to satisfy his probation officer. If he had access to the firearms at all he and I were in hot water. Last september I took my 9 year old for his first dove hunt, as my father did me at 9 years old. We ran it by hi Probation officer and nope grandpa couldent go, as while we were sleeping in the tent he would have access... My recomendation stay away from the issue. if you are in doubt ask his Probation officer.

You are lucky your dad got a reasonable PO. My dad is a retired federal LEO and my brother, who has spent a couple years as a state fire fighter (getting paid peenies per hour), won't go to my parents house because of the contents my father's safes. When he had a PO, the PO told him that he would be rolled up if he was "caught" there.

Judas530
02-12-2009, 12:30 PM
nope

SteveH
02-12-2009, 12:33 PM
Never seen any charged for conspiracy to commit felon posses firearm, but its not beyond the relm of possibility. And conspiracy is a felony.

garandguy10
02-12-2009, 1:17 PM
You totally forgot water gun.. :55: ........ Would a super soaker be ok???.......If so maybe felons can take super soakers to the range....:hide:


So what if a felon was an avid hunter prior to the felony, Im sure at some point he would have to have the erg to go hunting at some point right. So what if instead of using a rifle to hunts with, they used a power washer capable of reach as far as a shoot gun?

http://eedgtg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1piIoOJkpawAeGCGAw0NirVvAK8yC7Nx5WYIonCLN6NNE3ldT zFiY3Tjj2grjAEyCFk2tRgehnNpI/RK-41-2A.jpg
RK-41-2A Hot High Pressure Power Wash Rig

Specifications: 3,000 PSI, 5 GPM, 200 F, 16 HP Electric Start Vanguard Gasoline Engine


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Price: $10,340.00

Super soaker not ok [offensive.defensive weapon,could be used to disperse poison] High pressure washer,may be ok.if it is used during legitamate employment,ifused as any kind of offensive/defensive weapon,likely a Felony,no kidding. FELONS CAN NOT BE AROUND OR USE ANY KIND OF FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION.
The only exception that I am aware of is possibly for Theatrical performances [License,Permits,DOJ prior permission required]
Plenty of Felon Actors in Hollywood.

heyjerr
02-12-2009, 1:30 PM
I should've clarified "ex-felon" as meaning "no longer on parole". I know that people on parole or probation have extra limitations.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
02-12-2009, 1:42 PM
Super soaker not ok [offensive.defensive weapon,could be used to disperse poison]

I trust you're being sarcastic. A squirt gun could be used to disperse "poison" so felons can't have it? IANAL but I don't buy that for a second.

peekay331
02-12-2009, 1:43 PM
The irony is that a felon can actually still own a gun, but can't possess it. In other words, the felon can have firearms still registered to him, but have them in the possession of a third-party.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 1:45 PM
A drinking straw can disperse a poisionous dart if used as a blowgun. So, does that mean Felons can't get a Value Meal unless they specify "no straw". Or, if I bought a regular Value Meal and gave it to a felon, could I be in trouble for a straw purchase?

Cypren
02-12-2009, 2:25 PM
A drinking straw can disperse a poisionous dart if used as a blowgun. So, does that mean Felons can't get a Value Meal unless they specify "no straw". Or, if I bought a regular Value Meal and gave it to a felon, could I be in trouble for a straw purchase?

No, you're forgetting that the cup can be used to hold poison that can be THROWN at an unsuspecting victim! :willy_nilly:

Apparently, we need to make sure all McDonalds locations get FFLs. :D

ohsmily
02-12-2009, 2:30 PM
The irony is that a felon can actually still own a gun, but can't possess it. In other words, the felon can have firearms still registered to him, but have them in the possession of a third-party.

Really? What gives you that idea? Once someone becomes a prohibited person due to a criminal conviction, they have a certain amount of time to divest themselves of possession and ownership.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 2:36 PM
The irony is that a felon can actually still own a gun, but can't possess it. In other words, the felon can have firearms still registered to him, but have them in the possession of a third-party.

Maybe you are thinking of someone who has a RO against them. A convicted felon can not own a firearm PERIOD! If you can show me that I'm wrong, I'll let you shoot a few rounds through one of my 50s this sunday at Angeles. OK, if you can't prove it, come on out anyway. I'll still let you shoot a round or two.

garandguy10
02-12-2009, 3:21 PM
A drinking straw can disperse a poisionous dart if used as a blowgun. So, does that mean Felons can't get a Value Meal unless they specify "no straw". Or, if I bought a regular Value Meal and gave it to a felon, could I be in trouble for a straw purchase?

Blow guns are illegal to import or possess in California, Poison darts are illegal in California,Straw purchasing of any kind of Firearm is Illegal in California. Giving,loaning,transfering or allowing a prohibited person to handle or be in control of any kind of weapon or ammunition is illegal in California. Fast food meals are legal to sell to prohibited persons,Prohibited persons making weapons from the contents of the meal would likely be illegal and if not,should be.
Do not believe me? Call the DOJ for advice.

mecam
02-12-2009, 4:33 PM
Just take him paintballing. :thumbsup:

peekay331
02-12-2009, 5:02 PM
Really? What gives you that idea? Once someone becomes a prohibited person due to a criminal conviction, they have a certain amount of time to divest themselves of possession and ownership.
let me back up a bit. I'm speaking federally. No idea of California law. The federal law tracks possession. Ownership is not dispositive. I wish I had a case citation for you, but I don't have one handy. If you're an atty, you can Lexis it fairly easily. Look up the annotations under 18 USC 922(g).

Put it this way, I personally am aware of one case where a defendant felon was living with a roommate. The agents bust in pursuant to a search/arrest warrant and arrest the felon who is standing in the kitchen. Felon immediately says the gun in the kitchen cabinet is not his. Agent recovers gun which is registered to felon. Felon is prosecuted for 922(g). Felon cooks up some story that he sold the Glock 17 to his roommate for $100. Felon is acquitted after a jury trial.

ohsmily
02-12-2009, 5:03 PM
Blow guns are illegal to import or possess in California, Poison darts are illegal in California,Straw purchasing of any kind of Firearm is Illegal in California. Giving,loaning,transfering or allowing a prohibited person to handle or be in control of any kind of weapon or ammunition is illegal in California. Fast food meals are legal to sell to prohibited persons,Prohibited persons making weapons from the contents of the meal would likely be illegal and if not,should be.
Do not believe me? Call the DOJ for advice.

:rofl2: You are quite a character and you blow a lot of hot air. If you think that that pressurized water hose is a firearm or something not allowed to be possessed by a prohibited person, you are a funny guy.

peekay331
02-12-2009, 5:08 PM
No, but the gun is registered to him. He did not go through a FFL. He claimed he sold it to his buddy and therefore had no knowledge of the whereabouts of the gun. This was to get around the constructive possession charge, which requires knowledge and access of the firearm.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 5:28 PM
Blow guns are illegal to import or possess in California, Poison darts are illegal in California,Straw purchasing of any kind of Firearm is Illegal in California. Giving,loaning,transfering or allowing a prohibited person to handle or be in control of any kind of weapon or ammunition is illegal in California. Fast food meals are legal to sell to prohibited persons,Prohibited persons making weapons from the contents of the meal would likely be illegal and if not,should be.
Do not believe me? Call the DOJ for advice.

OK, first, you need to open your mind and see my attempt at humor. Secondly, some blowguns are legal in Ca. I know ones designed for paintballs are. You are right about the darts! The "straw purchase" I was refering to is the purchase of a drink that comes with a drinking straw. Although, if I bought it with someone else's money to give to that person, it would meet both definitions. Now, the best part of your comment is your final sentence! "Call the DOJ for advice." This sentence tells me that you have a very sick sense of humor too! I have called the DOJ many times. I was personally given the "two week" warning once, over the phone. The fact is that the DOJ does not always give the proper legal advice over the phone. Also, any advise given over the phone is hard to prove, should you stupidly rely on said advise and have to defend yourself in court because of it. Any time you need legal advise from Ca DOJ, you should request it in writing. But, we know that's a waste of time because they will just send you a letter stating that 58 DAs may have different opinions.

garandguy10
02-12-2009, 5:54 PM
OK, first, you need to open your mind and see my attempt at humor. Secondly, some blowguns are legal in Ca. I know ones designed for paintballs are. You are right about the darts! The "straw purchase" I was refering to is the purchase of a drink that comes with a drinking straw. Although, if I bought it with someone else's money to give to that person, it would meet both definitions. Now, the best part of your comment is your final sentence! "Call the DOJ for advice." This sentence tells me that you have a very sick sense of humor too! I have called the DOJ many times. I was personally given the "two week" warning once, over the phone. The fact is that the DOJ does not always give the proper legal advice over the phone. Also, any advise given over the phone is hard to prove, should you stupidly rely on said advise and have to defend yourself in court because of it. Any time you need legal advise from Ca DOJ, you should request it in writing. But, we know that's a waste of time because they will just send you a letter stating that 58 DAs may have different opinions.

Bottom line is: It is illegal to allow a Felon to shoot firearms at a Firing Range,or anywhere else in California.

peekay331
02-12-2009, 5:58 PM
Ok, found the case. Spent the last 30 minutes looking for it. Sucks when you've seen something but can't recollect. Here it is: U.S. v. Casterline, C.A.9 (Or.) 1996, 103 F.3d 76.
Link:
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/103/103.F3d.76.96-30033.html

Here is the synopsis.
For purposes of statute dealing with offense of being a felon in possession of a firearm, while ownership may be circumstantial evidence of possession, it cannot amount to, or substitute for, possession; possession, actual or constructive, is what must be proven, and ownership without physical access to, or dominion and control over, firearm does not constitute possession.

Of course, this is not legal advice because the facts of your case may be different. Get an attorney.

Max-the-Silent
02-12-2009, 6:39 PM
Absent a Waiver of Disability, felons are not allowed to possess firearms firearms in any context other than self defense, and they'd better be able to prove that they took the piece away from their attacker.

Depending on the attitude of the jurisdiction where then offense occured, an individual that knowingly provided a firearm to a felon - even in an otherwise legal target shooting/hunting scenario, could well end up with some type of conspiracy charge.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 6:55 PM
Bottom line is: It is illegal to allow a Felon to shoot firearms at a Firing Range,or anywhere else in California.

Yep, but I'll go further and say that this probably holds true anywhere in the country.

I just went back and reread your previous posts in this thread. I had totally forgot about the "theatrical prefomance" exception. This might be the way for rehabilitated felons to be allowed to re-enact! I wonder what kind of paperwork is invovled or if it's just a blanket exception.

heyjerr
02-12-2009, 7:53 PM
A drinking straw can disperse a poisionous dart if used as a blowgun. So, does that mean Felons can't get a Value Meal unless they specify "no straw". Or, if I bought a regular Value Meal and gave it to a felon, could I be in trouble for a straw purchase?

Now you've done it. The Brady Bunch is going to to write up legislation that only allows the use of a straw if it doesn't have a pistol grip, collapsible stock, flash hider, and can only load one spitball at a time.

Just take him paintballing. :thumbsup:

When I get him to the course, I'll tell him he's not allowed to use a paintball gun and can only throw the balls at me. :43: That seems fair to me!

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 7:59 PM
When I get him to the course, I'll tell him he's not allowed to use a paintball gun and can only throw the balls at me. :43: That seems fair to me!

Hopefully he's smart enough to not use a paintball "gun" and he uses a paintball MARKER instead! This is one case were being PC could make a difference if the wrong person overhears any talk about him doing this.

heyjerr
02-12-2009, 8:03 PM
Hopefully he's smart enough to not use a paintball "gun" and he uses a paintball MARKER instead! This is one case were being PC could make a difference if the wrong person overhears any talk about him doing this.

If he were that smart, he wouldn't have been dumb enough to do something that would make him a felon in the first place. :D

jamesob
02-12-2009, 9:24 PM
The irony is that a felon can actually still own a gun, but can't possess it. In other words, the felon can have firearms still registered to him, but have them in the possession of a third-party.

no true, they actually have tasks forces hitting up felons asking for their weapons. that happened to my cousin in sactown.

ohsmily
02-12-2009, 9:43 PM
Ok, found the case. Spent the last 30 minutes looking for it. Sucks when you've seen something but can't recollect. Here it is: U.S. v. Casterline, C.A.9 (Or.) 1996, 103 F.3d 76.
Link:
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/103/103.F3d.76.96-30033.html

Here is the synopsis.
For purposes of statute dealing with offense of being a felon in possession of a firearm, while ownership may be circumstantial evidence of possession, it cannot amount to, or substitute for, possession; possession, actual or constructive, is what must be proven, and ownership without physical access to, or dominion and control over, firearm does not constitute possession.

Of course, this is not legal advice because the facts of your case may be different. Get an attorney.

The issue here is that when guns are transferred between citizens within most states, there is no paperwork or registration information. So, someone may still be the owner of record on paper but don't actual own or possess the gun anymore. So, it is misleading to say it is perfectly OK for felons to own guns and just not possess them. They may not own or possess guns, but it is not a crime per se for them to be the "owners of record" on paper as long as they are no longer the actual owners nor in possession.

peekay331
02-13-2009, 10:27 AM
The issue here is that when guns are transferred between citizens within most states, there is no paperwork or registration information. So, someone may still be the owner of record on paper but don't actual own or possess the gun anymore. So, it is misleading to say it is perfectly OK for felons to own guns and just not possess them. They may not own or possess guns, but it is not a crime per se for them to be the "owners of record" on paper as long as they are no longer the actual owners nor in possession.
I don't really understand your argument with respect to California or the Ninth Circuit. As far as I can tell, there may be three things at issue: 1) ownership; 2) registration; and 3) possession. The Ninth Circuit has held here that ownership does not equal possession for purposes of being a felon in possession because 18 USC 922(g) specifically uses the word "possession" and not "ownership." Based on this reasoning, I would assume that by extension, registration also does not equal possession for purposes of this statute.

The focus here is on possession, either physical or constructive possession. The latter occurs for example, when a felon is in a car with a gun underneath the seat. Who actually owns the gun is only circumstantial evidence and not dispositive of possession.

Before people read this case and rely on it, I must warn them that this isn't legal advice and your situation may be different. That being said, the facts in Casterline are particularly strong for the felon. The felon's guns were in an evidence locker in the police station. There is no way he had physical access to the guns. This MAY be different than some felon who gives his guns to his buddy for "safekeeping." In addition, this case only applies to federal law- CA's felon in possession statute may be different.

99sparks
02-13-2009, 10:43 AM
In another state I talked to a guys PO. He said it was his, the felons, problem not mine. His PO told me I could hunt on his property and stay in his house… with my guns. It was his, the felon’s, responsibility not to touch my guns. However, he also stated it would be very wise keep my gun in my holster, my hand or locked in my car. Do not hand a gun to, or offer to, him and all was good. BTW there were two witnesses to the conversation… one of them was a retired sheriff’s deputy in that other state. The guy was a felon prior to my meeting him. Nicer guy than a lot of police I have met. Was at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people and got caught up in it. Now let me say this again in case you missed it… this was not in CA.

tincan715
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
The example that was told to me was, a police officer was married to an ex felon. He went to bed and put his duty belt and gun away in the closet. Her parole officer came over to do a routine search of the house and saw the gun. She went back to prison, and he got fired and charges brought up on him.

I know a guy who had a decades-old felony conviction and had lead a blameless life since then. He was married to a woman who had a firearm. She died suddenly (a heart attack or something), he called 911, and at some point the responding officer asked if there were any firearms in the house. He said yes, but it belonged to his just-deceased wife. He was arrested, convicted as a felon in possession of a firearm, did jail time, and lost his job. I'm not very sympathetic to felons who want their rights back but I think that one was over the top.

CSACANNONEER
02-13-2009, 12:10 PM
In the end, it's up to the felon on whether or not he/she want to take risks. It also seem like POs, LEOs and DAs have various opinions. I guess it all depends on how much one likes to gamble.

lbdrummer3
02-13-2009, 12:21 PM
In the end, it's up to the felon on whether or not he/she want to take risks. It also seem like POs, LEOs and DAs have various opinions. I guess it all depends on how much one likes to gamble.

Very well put!

CSACANNONEER
02-13-2009, 5:18 PM
Let's say you're at the shooting range, just how are you supposed to *know* if everyone there has a clean record? Let's say the guy shooting next to you wants to take a couple shots with your rifle, should you let him? You aren't in a position to do a full background check, so you can't really know if letting him borrow your rifle is legal, right? What about a sting operation along the same lines, could somebody be busted? Just who is the burden of knowledge on in cases like this? If you let an ex-felon take a shot with your rifle at a public shooting range, can you be busted?

Or, better yet, what trouble could a range get into for allowing him/her to shoot? How about if he/she rents a gun? Private bussinesses do not have the capability to check every customer out. I really feel that intent and knowledge would need to be proved.

Actually, I remember talking with a local off duty LEO while I was working at the Agoura Range and, he told me that he had just busted a parolee the week before. He went on to say that the obvious felon had a brand new range card in his wallet. So, I know it happens. Probably more than anyone wants to think about. In this case, I know the range was NEVER contacted about him after his arrest.

tonelar
02-13-2009, 7:40 PM
If you let an ex-felon take a shot with your rifle at a public shooting range, can you be busted?


1st off- an "EX-Felon" implies the Person is NOT a Felon anymore (id est; they got their records expunged).

2nd- If you're at a range and someone shooting in the lane next to you wants to take a couple shots with your gun, it's safe to assume they are legally there or your pistol is the least of the laws they are already breaking.

scrat
02-13-2009, 7:50 PM
ok i am a little ignorant on this but. Hello if you commited a felony what makes you think you can get it erased. I mean how is that. Why is that. In my mind i see you did something got arrested maybe went to prison now years later your out. Should it be erased from your record?

Telperion
02-13-2009, 8:18 PM
Let's say you're at the shooting range, just how are you supposed to *know* if everyone there has a clean record? Let's say the guy shooting next to you wants to take a couple shots with your rifle, should you let him? You aren't in a position to do a full background check, so you can't really know if letting him borrow your rifle is legal, right? What about a sting operation along the same lines, could somebody be busted? Just who is the burden of knowledge on in cases like this? If you let an ex-felon take a shot with your rifle at a public shooting range, can you be busted?

The burden is always on the State. See 18 USC 922(b):

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person --

(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

america 101
02-13-2009, 8:31 PM
I don't think they do background checks at the shooting range but if something happened it could be bad.

I just did some legal stuff to get my rights back. You can do it yourself for less but you need to spend some time figuring out how to work the court system. The felony needs to be a "wobbler" to get reduced then expunged.

Check this site out: www.recordgone.com

SJgunguy24
02-13-2009, 10:52 PM
Not to joke about the OP's situation but, it never stops the criminals who are felons from commiting new crimes. The laws need to be enforced insted of enacting new useless laws.

I had a freind get his record expunged, big time hassle from what I remember.

ZRX61
02-13-2009, 11:21 PM
I think it's more normal for felons to be shot AT... ;)