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diginit
02-11-2009, 9:10 PM
http://secondamendmentmarch.com/
I know the main march is in D.C. Scheduled for 2010, But other marches are planned to coincide in various states. Has anyone heard of any local marches? (SF Bay Area) If not, Maybe we, as Calgunners, could form a local march on the same date. I'm willing to walk to make a peaceful statement on firearm ownership. But alot of people would have to attend, dress, and act like responsible citizens, in order to make any sort of noticable statement and recieve the proper media coverage.
This is just a thought. I'm hoping someone in the know will reply to this post.

CCWFacts
02-11-2009, 9:24 PM
No, please no, please don't support this. These things are so bad for gun owners. There can 1,000 gun owners who are a diverse group of mild-mannered professionals and they'll find the one guy there who is wearing cammos and talks about how he needs guns to fight against illegal immigrants and the homosexual agenda, and guess what, that's the one interview that makes the news.

Please, no marches, no rallies.

If you want to see how bad gun owners can look when they cherry-pick the worst one, go to Youtube.com and search for "Bruno gun show" and click the first link. I'm not going to embed it here because maybe it's just a little over the edge of what's acceptable here, but it's both very funny, and also shows how horrible gun owners can look on camera. Yes, admittedly, "Bruno" (Sasha Baron Cohen) is an absolute master of extracting embarassingness from people, but even the mainstream media do, just with more subtlety.

7x57
02-11-2009, 9:43 PM
but it's both very funny, and also shows how horrible gun owners can look on camera.

I don't know, the guy in the video (if I found the same one) had the same advice that you are giving: "be careful what you say. Be *very* careful what you say."

Who can argue with that? :D

7x57

CCWFacts
02-11-2009, 9:55 PM
I don't know, the guy in the video (if I found the same one) had the same advice that you are giving: "be careful what you say. Be *very* careful what you say."

Yeah he should have taken his own advice. But believe me, the media will find one guy like that in any crowd of gun owners.

We need to somehow persuade gun owners to stay away from such events.

You notice that the NRA is never involved with this stuff?

SwissFluCase
02-11-2009, 10:07 PM
I agree. Any public event we do should be about teaching new shooters how to shoot in a safe and efficient manner in a controlled environment. Think of an Appleseed type concept, but for complete newbies. Maybe we can even teach the nice reporter how to shoot.

The last thing we need is the TV crews picking out Bubba the insane gun whacko who just came in town from his Y2K cabin in the woods to broadcast his views on the best way to shoot illegal immigrants, overthrow the government, shoot down black helicopters, and help the south rise again. I've seen this first hand.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No....

I rather do a drunken Calguns pub crawl than a hairy armpited no bathing "peace, love, and guns march" any day of the week.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

7x57
02-11-2009, 10:12 PM
I rather do a drunken Calguns pub crawl than a hairy armpited no bathing "peace, love, and guns march" any day of the week.


Um. Wait. What's wrong with a "peace, love, guns" march? :D Well, except for the no-bathing armpit thing, of course.

7x57

7x57
02-11-2009, 10:13 PM
I agree. Any public event we do should be about teaching new shooters how to shoot in a safe and efficient manner in a controlled environment. Think of an Appleseed type concept, but for complete newbies. Maybe we can even teach the nice reporter how to shoot.


Appleseed is happy to have complete newbies, and I think reporters can come. I definitely remember that elected officials always shoot free.

7x57

SwissFluCase
02-11-2009, 10:22 PM
Appleseed is happy to have complete newbies, and I think reporters can come. I definitely remember that elected officials always shoot free.

7x57

I'll gladly pay for some of that ammo.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

N6ATF
02-11-2009, 10:56 PM
:dupe:

MP301
02-11-2009, 10:58 PM
I agree. Any public event we do should be about teaching new shooters how to shoot in a safe and efficient manner in a controlled environment. Think of an Appleseed type concept, but for complete newbies. Maybe we can even teach the nice reporter how to shoot.

The last thing we need is the TV crews picking out Bubba the insane gun whacko who just came in town from his Y2K cabin in the woods to broadcast his views on the best way to shoot illegal immigrants, overthrow the government, shoot down black helicopters, and help the south rise again. I've seen this first hand.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No....

I rather do a drunken Calguns pub crawl than a hairy armpited no bathing "peace, love, and guns march" any day of the week.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

I agree.... but there is one problem with this view.....what if the smarter of us stay home and the only ones to show up to one of these marches are the knuckle draggers! AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!

This would mean that we go from a high probability of getting the wrong media attention to a guaruntee that we get bad press!

Looking at it in this light, would it not be a good idea for as many of the "right" people show up for an event like this? We should do our best to educate our own about how to dress and act so as not to hurt our cause.

If that doesnt work, we could flank the knuckle draggers on all sides and try to hide the camoflauge from the camers? Or put an ad in the "Bubba Monthly" giving the wrong address for the march?

Tough situation I say!

SwissFluCase
02-11-2009, 11:36 PM
I agree.... but there is one problem with this view.....what if the smarter of us stay home and the only ones to show up to one of these marches are the knuckle draggers! AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!

This would mean that we go from a high probability of getting the wrong media attention to a guaruntee that we get bad press!

Looking at it in this light, would it not be a good idea for as many of the "right" people show up for an event like this? We should do our best to educate our own about how to dress and act so as not to hurt our cause.

If that doesnt work, we could flank the knuckle draggers on all sides and try to hide the camoflauge from the camers? Or put an ad in the "Bubba Monthly" giving the wrong address for the march?

Tough situation I say!

Very valid point. What a mess...

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Dr Rockso
02-11-2009, 11:56 PM
I agree.... but there is one problem with this view.....what if the smarter of us stay home and the only ones to show up to one of these marches are the knuckle draggers! AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!

This would mean that we go from a high probability of getting the wrong media attention to a guaruntee that we get bad press!

Looking at it in this light, would it not be a good idea for as many of the "right" people show up for an event like this? We should do our best to educate our own about how to dress and act so as not to hurt our cause.

If that doesnt work, we could flank the knuckle draggers on all sides and try to hide the camoflauge from the camers? Or put an ad in the "Bubba Monthly" giving the wrong address for the march?

Tough situation I say!

I think the fact that this alleged march is still over 1 year away gives us some options on that front. If this is legitimized by circumstances (say the NRA gets onboard with the idea of a march due to pending legislation), then I think you'd see a lot more mainstream gunowners. If not, it will just be a few bubbas standing in front of the capitol, hardly enough to merit any real media attention. Of course if that's the case it might just be cancelled outright.

MP301
02-12-2009, 12:24 PM
I think the fact that this alleged march is still over 1 year away gives us some options on that front. If this is legitimized by circumstances (say the NRA gets onboard with the idea of a march due to pending legislation), then I think you'd see a lot more mainstream gunowners. If not, it will just be a few bubbas standing in front of the capitol, hardly enough to merit any real media attention. Of course if that's the case it might just be cancelled outright.

Well, your asssuming only a "few" bubbas would show up... Im thinking a media field day if they get any kind of turn out...scary! everyone call your bubba friends and tell them to step away from the march!!!!

7x57
02-12-2009, 12:36 PM
...Public activities should be centered around **responsible** gun ownership, gun safety etc. offer a public seminar on safe storage of firearms in the home. How about a fun .22 shoot at the gun range for kids on the honor roll at school.

I'm not sure that centering on guns necessary or even optimal. For one thing, it is not a disruptive strategy. It is compatible with the "obsessed gunnie" stereotype--if gunnies were going to do a good thing, "it figures" that it would be about guns.

As an example of something more disruptive, I have a pleasant fantasy of going down to the local women's shelter or social services agency (I know, privacy and protection issues will put the kibosh on it somehow, let's not worry about that while brainstorming) and saying that I have a group that will (1) build backyard play equipment for the cost of lumber, (2) do handyman repairs, and/or (3) help provide outings to the zoo (transportation, probably guest passes from current members) for any single mothers who would like to request one.

I'm not sure I'd even mention any affiliation, in fact it might be just as well to create a group for this purpose so there is no explicit gunnie affiliation ("Part Time Dads" might work for a group name). I might not even wear NRA/Calguns/whatever t-shirts, so as not to make a big deal about it. You don't want to project an image of "I'm a gun owner, I'm doing this for publicity," but rather "I'm doing this because it's a good thing, why are you interested in my other hobby?"

*That* is disruptive, because the antis think gun owners are selfishly ignoring the overwhelming social need to get rid of guns for their stupid sport (or worse). It gives the lie to the stereotype and co-opts an issue they think belongs to them.

7x57

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 12:45 PM
say the NRA gets onboard with the idea of a march

This is the only way max turnout would happen. They will not do this however.

The antis don't care if we march and will not be swayed and such drama causes backlashes. What the "coalition" is working on legally in the courts is all that will work IMO along with peaceful open carry where it is lawful to already do so (post incorporation being the optimal environment). Once we get open carry in DC I'll be going for a vacation (sadly the monuments and museums will probably stay off limits).

CCWFacts
02-12-2009, 12:47 PM
I agree.... but there is one problem with this view.....what if the smarter of us stay home and the only ones to show up to one of these marches are the knuckle draggers! AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!

It doesn't make any difference because there will always be at least one guy who will expound on his views that he needs to own guns to protect himself from the Zionist Occupation Government and the homosexual agenda and illegal immigrants and invisible pink unicorns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn). The the media interviewers will find that one guy and it will be his interview that gets aired.

The best thing to do is to make the event as small and un-news-worthy as we possibly can, by not showing up, not supporting it, and telling all of our friends to do the same.

Cypren
02-12-2009, 12:57 PM
It doesn't make any difference because there will always be at least one guy who will expound on his views that he needs to own guns to protect himself from the Zionist Occupation Government and the homosexual agenda and illegal immigrants and invisible pink unicorns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn). The the media interviewers will find that one guy and it will be his interview that gets aired.

There were a few comments in the Orange County Board of Supervisors meeting this week that hedged very dangerously close to being represented as this sort of thing; one speaker brought up the large number of illegal immigrants in California as a reason that we needed guns for self defense, which can trivially be twisted into a racist argument whether the speaker intended it that way or not.

tboyer
02-12-2009, 1:10 PM
I think having a 2nd amendment contingent in a 4th of July or veterans day
parade would be a good thing,

The Alameda NRA member counsel marches in Alamedaís 4th of July parade.
and they get cheers.

As I have stated before, gun owners need to be more visible, perhaps
just a 2nd amendment march might make some people uncomfortable,
but if every parade had a 2nd amendment contingent, that would
be a vary good thing.

I started putting gun magazines in the magazine rack of my gym
(the manager is a friend) at first they would all disappear and a couple
of customers complained about them being there.

Now, no one complains and when one disappears , itís probably
because some one took it home to read.

Also I purchased ďcelebrate diversity gun t-shirts
http://www.thoseshirts.com/diversity.html
for the three young staff employees of the gym,
which they do wear at work.

SwissFluCase
02-12-2009, 1:10 PM
There were a few comments in the Orange County Board of Supervisors meeting this week that hedged very dangerously close to being represented as this sort of thing; one speaker brought up the large number of illegal immigrants in California as a reason that we needed guns for self defense, which can trivially be twisted into a racist argument whether the speaker intended it that way or not.

Yep. Gun owners are our own worst enemy. I think there are lot of "John Wayne" type gun owners out there who haven't a clue how this Machiavellian game works, or they think they can simply stand up and "tell the truth by God" and blow their enemies away with their rhetoric.

The anti's aren't stupid. They know they are the cogs in a much larger and well thought out game with very high stakes. They study psychological warfare tactics, and using those some tactics against them doesn't always work.

Marching works for them. It won't work for us. Teaching people to shoot will work for us; that is a disaster for them.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

SwissFluCase
02-12-2009, 1:16 PM
I think having a 2nd amendment contingent in a 4th of July or veterans day
parade would be a good thing,

The Alameda NRA member counsel marches in Alameda’s 4th of July parade.
and they get cheers.

No problem there. Arms and parades go together very well. A parade is a martial tradition that is embeded into the American culture quite well. It also isn't a media circus.

There are some subtle differences between parades and marches. I think we should draw a distinction between the two.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2009, 1:19 PM
IThe last thing we need is the TV crews picking out Bubba the insane gun whacko who just came in town from his Y2K cabin in the woods to broadcast his views on the best way to shoot illegal immigrants, overthrow the government, shoot down black helicopters, and help the south rise again. I've seen this first hand.



Who said anything about SAS showing up?

bwiese
02-12-2009, 1:26 PM
It doesn't make any difference because there will always be at least one guy who will expound on his views that he needs to own guns to protect himself from the Zionist Occupation Government and the homosexual agenda and illegal immigrants and invisible pink unicorns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn). The the media interviewers will find that one guy and it will be his interview that gets aired.

The best thing to do is to make the event as small and un-news-worthy as we possibly can, by not showing up, not supporting it, and telling all of our friends to do the same.

Yup.

Last year, one of our CA NRA staffers was called, the day Heller hit, for an "interview with an NRA dissenter who wore camoflauge".

The media is not looking for fair & balanced, they're looking for 'man bites dog' or sterotype reinforcements.

Cypren
02-12-2009, 1:32 PM
Last year, one of our CA NRA staffers was called, the day Heller hit, for an "interview with an NRA dissenter who wore camoflauge".

The media is not looking for fair & balanced, they're looking for 'man bites dog' or sterotype reinforcements.

Yeah. Mode of dress is a real pet peeve of mine -- it may be fun to wear T-shirts with bloody smileys, large pictures of weapons and political slogans on them while at the range, but when you show up to make a public statement, you need to dress in a fashion appropriate to serious public debate. That means a suit. No exceptions. You are not "standing up for your rights" by dressing like the media's stereotypical image of a gun-toting hick, you are destroying them by costing us the public relations battle. Unless we want a shooting war -- and I guarantee you, the only people who do are idiots who have never seen or gotten near one -- we need to win this by persuasion. And you do not persuade people by rubbing your positions, prejudices and views in their faces. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Public fora are Rome, and they have their standards and conventions. Adopt them. Learn to play the game. And for the sake of all that is holy, don't give our enemies any more ammunition just to satisfy your colossal ego.

:rant:

Liberty1
02-12-2009, 1:33 PM
I think having a 2nd amendment contingent in a 4th of July or veterans day
parade would be a good thing,

The Alameda NRA member counsel marches in Alameda’s 4th of July parade.
and they get cheers.

As I have stated before, gun owners need to be more visible, perhaps
just a 2nd amendment march might make some people uncomfortable,
but if every parade had a 2nd amendment contingent, that would
be a vary good thing.

Local parades, with many community groups participating, IS the place to march if one wants to do so.

Yes we do need visibility and outreach at the local community level. :thumbsup:

But lets concentrate on our natural born constituency; those who already own firearms. The Calguns gun show booth is that outreach. Calguns floats in parades is a down the road idea (I like the thought of an OLL color guard w/national and calguns flags).

But do support and march with an NRA members counsel parade unit!

SwissFluCase
02-12-2009, 1:39 PM
Yeah. Mode of dress is a real pet peeve of mine -- it may be fun to wear T-shirts with bloody smileys, large pictures of weapons and political slogans on them while at the range, but when you show up to make a public statement, you need to dress in a fashion appropriate to serious public debate. That means a suit. No exceptions. You are not "standing up for your rights" by dressing like the media's stereotypical image of a gun-toting hick, you are destroying them by costing us the public relations battle. Unless we want a shooting war -- and I guarantee you, the only people who do are idiots who have never seen or gotten near one -- we need to win this by persuasion. And you do not persuade people by rubbing your positions, prejudices and views in their faces. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Public fora are Rome, and they have their standards and conventions. Adopt them. Learn to play the game. And for the sake of all that is holy, don't give our enemies any more ammunition just to satisfy your colossal ego.

:rant:

I'm sure there are plenty of idiots who do want a shooting war. It seems the most boorish gun owners are also the first ones to talk about shooting down black helicopters and such. Ugh.... They also have no problem telling the world that they are ready and eager to exterminate those who they view as a threat.

We don't need those people representing us. No way.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

7x57
02-12-2009, 5:38 PM
I started putting gun magazines in the magazine rack of my gym
(the manager is a friend) at first they would all disappear and a couple
of customers complained about them being there.


You...put... :eek:


Now, no one complains and when one disappears , itís probably
because some one took it home to read.


Ooooohhhhh, *that* kind of magazine. :p

I've been reading calguns too much. :chris:

7x57

7x57
02-12-2009, 5:44 PM
Local parades, with many community groups participating, IS the place to march if one wants to do so.


I realize suggesting discipline to gun owners is like attempting to pacify crazed weasels, but the Right Way to do this is to have a designated spokesman, whoever has the most experience with dealing with nakedly slanted coverage and the longest fuze. *Everybody* refuses to say anything to the press other than to refer them to the spokesman, no exceptions. If there are two qualified people there could be two spokesmen, but nobody not named a spokesman in advance speaks to the press.

For gunnies, being interviewed is a form of defensive warfare, and it needs to be handed off to the best suited person.

7x57

Paladin
02-12-2009, 7:59 PM
Has it been 6 months already? It seems like about twice a year someone in this subforum starts a "Let's stage a 2nd A RKBA protest/march/etc." thread. Oh well, it could be worse. It could be the "Let's get a (fill in the blank) proposition on the ballot!" thread that shows up every 3-4 months around here.

About the only thing like the above that I'd be willing to participate in is a UOC or LOC (depending upon Nordyke) march if and only if CGF and/or CalNRA/NRA says it will help our cause.

IMO, everybody who wants to participate in some other march would better serve our cause by taking all of the time, money and effort they would have expended upon it and donating that to one of the branches of the NRA (NRA, CalNRA, NRA-ILA) and/or CGN/CGF (see the link in my sig line).


But lets concentrate on our natural born constituency; those who already own firearms. The Calguns gun show booth is that outreach.If successful, CGN/CGF might want to expand to Outdoors or Sports & Boat Shows as well. I'm sure many of their attendants own guns too, but aren't as "low hanging fruit" as our closer allies that go to Gun Shows proper. IOW, they are a second priority target to be hit as resources allow.

pat4wd
02-12-2009, 8:13 PM
Yes, All the sheepal need to not stand up for their rights.. The time is coming that all good, normal people who are gun owners need to get out and show themselves.. The american people need to see the normal law abiding gun owner.. IMO all the People that only hide behind the courts and dont get out and spread the word are hurting us gun owners damn near as much as the anti gun owner.. Their will always be the idiot who brings us down as gun owners so it is all the more of a reason for all of us to get out there and show a good example.. But if the law abiding normal joe gun owner does not get out in Great numbers we are sure to put the noose around our own necks since that is all the media and public will see.... Get out and go to the marches..

7x57
02-12-2009, 8:22 PM
About the only thing like the above that I'd be willing to participate in is a UOC or LOC (depending upon Nordyke) march if and only if CGF and/or CalNRA/NRA says it will help our cause.


I entirely agree with not pulling things that the "good" leadership doesn't back. The NRA and CGF seem to do it right and not screw up, and as long as they keep it that way I regard them as the credible lead strategists. I don't follow losing generals, but I know enough to know that I'd better be able to follow winning ones.

I recall an interview with Nelson Mandela not long after he was released from prison (and before he had any real official leadership position), and when pressed on certain questions he keep repeating "I am a disciplined member of the ANC...." IIRC the point was that he knew ANC strategy and chain-of-command and would not deviate from it, even though at that point his word carried a lot of weight.

It's too bad we don't have that kind of coherence, but I guess it comes with having such a high proportion of "live free or die" types.

7x57

wilit
02-12-2009, 10:58 PM
No, please no, please don't support this. These things are so bad for gun owners. There can 1,000 gun owners who are a diverse group of mild-mannered professionals and they'll find the one guy there who is wearing cammos and talks about how he needs guns to fight against illegal immigrants and the homosexual agenda, and guess what, that's the one interview that makes the news.

Please, no marches, no rallies.


I have to respectfully disagree with the guys who say rallies like these are bad ideas because of how the media may portray us gun owners. We need to be heard. Sure there may be 200 million guns in America, however, most statistics I've read say those 200 million guns are owned by only 34 percent of Americans. That puts us in the minority, and sadly I think if it came to a vote tomorrow, I think the majority of Americans would vote with a collective 2A view. Gun owners are not the vocal minority or the silent majority, we seem to be the silent minority, and until we start showing the politicians that we're here, they're going to keep listening to the vocal idiots like the Brady Bunch and every other anti-gun group out there that makes their views known by hitting the streets.

yellowfin
02-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Sure there may be 200 million guns in America, however, most statistics I've read say those 200 million guns are owned by only 34 percent of Americans. That puts us in the minority, and sadly I think if it came to a vote tomorrow, I think the majority of Americans would vote with a collective 2A view.

Reconfigure that number to consider how many Americans live in anti gun places. Take out the populations of DC, NYC, most of NJ, Chicago, Boston, LA, SF, and other places that heavily discourage and do darn near everything possible to make guns highly impractical to own or access. A disturbingly large percentage of people in the US live in anti gun areas; if you take that into account you'll see that a vastly larger percentage of Americans who have the free choice and freer access to do so are gun owners. Also take out from the population those under 18 (though even many legal gun owners take ownership of at very least their first ones before able to buy it for themselves), and those legally disqualified.

In short, those numbers are a bit loose--actual pro gun people are a MUCH higher percentage. If 34% of the total population own guns, it's probably more like 55-60% and above who do when they can.

DDT
02-12-2009, 11:29 PM
I recall an interview with Nelson Mandela not long after he was released from prison (and before he had any real official leadership position), and when pressed on certain questions he keep repeating "I am a disciplined member of the ANC...." IIRC the point was that he knew ANC strategy and chain-of-command and would not deviate from it, even though at that point his word carried a lot of weight.


In all fairness deviating from ANC talking points carried a very heavy penalty. I believe the term is necklacing.

As for such a march it's a double edged sword. It is better to work in a coordinated fashion and the NRA and CGF have shown excellent leadership abilities. We are also on the precipice of some very good things in the legal system, there is every reason to believe the momentum is on our side.

However; if these marches are going to take place it would be better to flood them with the responsible gun owners and Second Amendment Activists rather than leaving it up to "the other guy" to act responsibly. The last thing you want is a crowd that is a "target rich environment" for the antis because the "good people" stayed home.

Eagle87Tango
02-13-2009, 4:22 AM
To the people I see saying this is a bad idea...I'm appauled. Especially if you live in Kalifornia. You've seen first hand the slow paced chipping away of our second amendment freedom, but you're not willing to stand up and be counted to defend it. It's disgusting. It's the roll-over-and-die attitude like that that's going to give this administration what it wants.

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

7x57
02-13-2009, 7:12 AM
In all fairness deviating from ANC talking points carried a very heavy penalty. I believe the term is necklacing.


You have me there--the ANC is not exactly a role-model, and I had to think for a while before I quoted that. And then more before I chose not to add a disclaimer. But then, I'm willing to repeat Mao's "barrel of a gun" quote too.

They would not have assassinated Nelson Mandala at that point, however, unless they are the stupidist revolutionaries alive. He was lionized by the international press. The murder would have been broadcast around the world and changed all the great press they were getting through him into a big mindshare liability.


The last thing you want is a crowd that is a "target rich environment" for the antis because the "good people" stayed home.

I'm not convinced it matters a lot. All they need to find is one or two wackos, and I hope y'all won't take it amiss if I say that much as I love ya I've never seen a gathering of gun activists that didn't have one or two wackos. :p

Once they have the wackos it doesn't matter how many other people are there. They won't exist, as far as the news is concerned.

7x57

7x57
02-13-2009, 7:20 AM
To the people I see saying this is a bad idea...I'm appauled. Especially if you live in Kalifornia. You've seen first hand the slow paced chipping away of our second amendment freedom, but you're not willing to stand up and be counted to defend it. It's disgusting. It's the roll-over-and-die attitude like that that's going to give this administration what it wants.

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

Let's examine your implicit assumptions here. The doozy is that you somehow seem to believe that all action must be good and effective. This seems to be a common gun-owner delusion. In the real world, there are plenty of things you can do to make things worse. Just ask the black panthers who open carried in Sacramento. Or the people who destroyed several state-level RKBA provisions with bad lawsuits.

You also assume that because a person does not wish to hurt the cause with bad action, they won't take any action. You ascribe the motive to cowardice or sloth. Nuts. How many wars have been lost because the generals couldn't hold back the troops? Plenty. Bweise seems to have compiled a long catalog of self-inflicted damage gunnies have caused in California.

Recall that the 2A has two parts: the first part states a reason why the RKBA is so important that it should make the "short list" of specially protected rights. That reason is that the militia be "well-regulated," i.e. trained and disciplined when called up. That doesn't only mean knowing how to load your musket; it also means knowing how to maneuver under command and take orders. It means drilling on the town commons to achieve that discipline.

We have some way to go to meet the founder's intention that we be "well-regulated." Why are you advocating being further unregulated?

7x57

DDT
02-13-2009, 8:49 AM
You have me there--the ANC is not exactly a role-model, and I had to think for a while before I quoted that. And then more before I chose not to add a disclaimer. But then, I'm willing to repeat Mao's "barrel of a gun" quote too.

I didn't think that you were completely blind to the ANC's history (or present) atrocities. I do understand your point too.

I see what you are saying about the need to only find one nut job. As much as I'd like to think that the coverage would somehow represent the non-nut/normal ratio actually in attendance I know that isn't always the case. If it were just think how bad all the leftist marches would look.

I wish I had a dollar for every crazy conspiracy theorist at the last gun show I attended. I could buy that new AR-15 upper I'm salivating over. I had no idea we had 600 death camps with gas chambers run by our government right here in the USA.

7x57
02-13-2009, 8:53 AM
As much as I'd like to think that the coverage would somehow represent the non-nut/normal ratio actually in attendance I know that isn't always the case.


Can you find a single case where it *was* the case in the normal media?


I wish I had a dollar for every crazy conspiracy theorist at the last gun show I attended. I could buy that new AR-15 upper I'm salivating over. I had no idea we had 600 death camps with gas chambers run by our government right here in the USA.

Oops, you posted that in an open forum. I gotta make a little call to the Men in Black, they need to pay you a visit. :TFH:

7x57

DDT
02-13-2009, 9:01 AM
Can you find a single case where it *was* the case in the normal media?


I am probably in the minority but I really do believe that most in the media try to be fair. The problem is that everyone works from their own cultural perspective. The management, editors etc. are all anti-gun and assume that second amendment advocates are all "gun nuts" they hire like minded minions and the culture is passed on. While I think there is some intentional bias like the Dan Rather October surprise I believe it is less common than it would seem. I know that I wouldn't take someone who holds the second amendment to be "outdated" or "inapplicable to modern society" the seriously if I were in the media, except to put them on the air to discredit them. If I don't take them seriously why would I go out of my way to find an exemplar that doesn't fit my opinion of them?


Oops, you posted that in an open forum. I gotta make a little call to the Men in Black, they need to pay you a visit. :TFH:

7x57

Sadly we are no more immune from the whackos than any other segment of society. In fact, because the defense against perceived threats is a primary reason for gun ownership it might be said that the TFHS (Tin Foil Hat Society) is drawn to gun ownership and gun rights, inflating their representation in our ranks. I am not saying that gun ownership leads to TFHS membership.

Jamez
02-13-2009, 9:08 AM
There can 1,000 gun owners who are a diverse group of mild-mannered professionals and they'll find the one guy there who is wearing cammos and talks about how he needs guns to fight against illegal immigrants and the homosexual agenda, and guess what, that's the one interview that makes the news.


As much as I'd like to participate in political rallies and such, I agree.
From a media stand point, there's no story in the responsible military veteran who's had training course after training course and is as responsible as can be.

They'll find that 1 guy who was in some wanna be militia group, or we'll get associated with those dumb ***** hats who tried to take out Obama.

7x57
02-13-2009, 9:15 AM
I am probably in the minority but I really do believe that most in the media try to be fair. The problem is that everyone works from their own cultural perspective.


Essentially you've nailed it. In their worldview our opinions are not worth reporting on, because decent people don't hold them. The problem is that it means that they can be absolutely slanted and believe themselves to be Doing Good For All Mankind.

I've been seeing "death of the newspaper" stories recently. I have no sympathy anymore after the last election. Let 'em die and good riddance. Precisely because of their worldview, they are unreformable.

I also no longer have a bit of sympathy for the American car makers. They take government money, I'll happily buy foreign. No loyalty for collaborators with nationalization.

7x57

Paladin
02-13-2009, 10:32 AM
Has it been 6 months already? It seems like about twice a year someone in this subforum starts a "Let's stage a 2nd A RKBA protest/march/etc." thread. Oh well, it could be worse. It could be the "Let's get a (fill in the blank) proposition on the ballot!" thread that shows up every 3-4 months around here.
For those who don't like wasting their time (i.e., their life), rehashing old debates like this one, go to:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72694

Perhaps CGF will post a sticky explaining why "the Right People" don't think protest marches or ballot propositions are a wise move in CA at this time.

And in case anyone missed the previous memo, they could add to it something re. "UOC at your own legal & financial risk" until the Nordyke opinion is published and then analyzed by "the Right People."

diginit
02-16-2009, 7:45 AM
I, Myself, Feel we need to inform the public that the sport of shooting is a good thing. Not just another way to kill something. Teaching people how to shoot and making donations is not going to be enough. All I hear from the media is the bad things that the criminals use firearms for. I never hear about the average joe that defended his family from wrath of a crazed killer. Or that shooting is an Olympic event.
The media is putting out a constant message and gun owners need to do the same. Or we will lose due to the lack of public education. We do need to do this in a responsible way. With proper dress, conduct, and spokesmen. If the "right people" stay home, we will lose for the same reason. Lack of public education. If the media continues to educate the public that guns are bad and none of the younger generation knows any different, What do you think will happen? I hope the NRA gets involved with this march. Because it is going to happen weather anyone likes it or not. The more responsible riflemen and spokesmen that show up, the better.

motorhead
02-16-2009, 9:36 AM
marches are bad, mkay, don't do marches.
not only will the media orchestrate this to portray us in the wost possible light but l.e. might feel the need for an overwhelming presence to intimidate. this has the potential to turn very ugly. as an alternative, what if everyone went out and bought guns/ammo on the same day? vote with your wallet. if it was publicized beforehand even the lib media couldn't ignore the figures.

7x57
02-16-2009, 9:38 AM
as an alternative, what if everyone went out and bought guns/ammo on the same day? vote with your wallet. if it was publicized beforehand even the lib media couldn't ignore the figures.

You mean sort of like declaring a National Ammo Day (http://www.ammoday.com/)? :D

7x57

nicki
04-29-2009, 12:59 PM
secondamendmentmarch.com/

One thing is they are networking and things are growing.

Based on their polls, most people want to have the state marches and the national march on different days.

The only thing I can conclude is that intial polling means that alot of people want to attend both marches.

If this organization does grow in size to where they will have a credible march in DC, that it would be a huge opportunity for us to put together a March at the state capital here.

Which should come first, the state or national marches. Arguements could be made either way.

Personally I am leaning toward doing the national march first, followed by state marches.

But that is me.

Nicki

Bill_in_SD
04-29-2009, 1:06 PM
As much as I'd like to participate in political rallies and such, I agree.
From a media stand point, there's no story in the responsible military veteran who's had training course after training course and is as responsible as can be.

They'll find that 1 guy who was in some wanna be militia group, or we'll get associated with those dumb ***** hats who tried to take out Obama.

I suspect that 'one guy' is going to show up whether we attend or not.

Maybe having the numbers out there will make it harder for the media to find or interview 'that guy'......

yellowfin
04-29-2009, 1:14 PM
It's too bad we don't have that kind of coherence, but I guess it comes with having such a high proportion of "live free or die" types.

7x57Also let's not forget that for a long time there wasn't a team in place and leadership to follow, so people aren't used to following it.

7x57
04-29-2009, 1:20 PM
Also let's not forget that for a long time there wasn't a team in place and leadership to follow, so people aren't used to following it.

Touche.

7x57

nicki
04-30-2009, 11:44 AM
The big concern is the media.

If the march is organized well, the media will be given access to the speakers.

The media will focus in on the actual speakers because the speakers are the news.

Sure, the media may focus in on our "Gomers", that is expected.

The real issue is that if this is done well, what will happen is a unification of gun owners across the country.

It will be a "we can do it" moment because we did it. It will move people to I can make a difference.

The issue isn't just the march, it is awaking the Political Giant, the American gun owner.

The NRA has 4 million members, but realistically maybe 10 percent are politically active.

What if we increased the number of politically active gun owners by 1000 percent. It would make a big difference.

2010 is a election year. If the March is highly attended and if there are follow up rallies across the country, we will make gun control so toxic that no one will want to touch it.

Do I support this march, I will say conditionally. So far I like what I see so far.

Nicki