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outersquare
02-11-2009, 7:59 PM
so i was mindlessly looking in my jacket pocket today, and i realized i could lock the zipper pocket.

If i put an unloaded gun + mag in there, and put a small lock on my pocket, would this be a "locked container" for legal transportation?

rayra
02-11-2009, 8:04 PM
put the bong down and step away.

tombinghamthegreat
02-11-2009, 8:05 PM
If you are on foot and it is a handgun might want to consider 12026, which list some places to go, someone in a few seconds can better explain it. There is also an open carry factor if you are willing to take that risk.

sorensen440
02-11-2009, 8:06 PM
I don't see why not

bplvr
02-11-2009, 8:07 PM
is it consealed ? is the ammo in the same ' locked container'?
SEE you in 10..... Sorry,nice try.

tombinghamthegreat
02-11-2009, 8:10 PM
is it concealed ? is the ammo in the same ' locked container'?
SEE you in 10..... Sorry,nice try.

It is not illegal to have the gun/ammo in the same container and it is legal to have loaded mags, the gun just as to be unloaded. also 12026.1 and 12026.2 are a list of exemptions to 12025 which includes a locked container.

savs2k
02-11-2009, 8:12 PM
it'd be concealed. I don't think it'll work. It's like locking up your gun case in the car but throwing it in your backpack?

tombinghamthegreat
02-11-2009, 8:16 PM
it'd be concealed. I don't think it'll work. It's like locking up your gun case in the car but throwing it in your backpack?

Which would be legal. You can put a handgun w/ammo in your backpack and put a small lock on the zipper too, which would not be considered concealed because it is in a locked container which the state does not define, just has to be completely enclosed. You can have the handgun case locked and put under the car seat ect. Also as a side note the concealed laws only apply to handguns, long guns can be concealed.


Also if you are going to say its illegal please cite the law....

tetris
02-11-2009, 8:18 PM
It is legal to carry a concealed weapon without a license. The catch is that it has to be unloaded in a locked container.

If you had a small gun like a Kahr PM9, and made a small hard plastic/metal container that fits it like a glove with the magazine separate and you had some quick unlocking mechanism like a GunVault or maybe a biometric scanner, then this would be legal. You could carry it on your person.

Its no different than walking to your car from the range with an unloaded gun in a locked case.

Theseus
02-11-2009, 10:09 PM
There is one major issue that needs to be considered. The container must be secure!

One of the problems with soft cases is that if, even with a lock they can be pried to a point were the weapon can be removed then it can be deemed not secure and boom...you are in trouble.

Sam
02-11-2009, 10:16 PM
There is one major issue that needs to be considered. The container must be secure!

One of the problems with soft cases is that if, even with a lock they can be pried to a point were the weapon can be removed then it can be deemed not secure and boom...you are in trouble.

As long as you don't tamper with a soft case I don't see a problem.

jasilva
02-11-2009, 10:16 PM
There is one major issue that needs to be considered. The container must be secure!

One of the problems with soft cases is that if, even with a lock they can be pried to a point were the weapon can be removed then it can be deemed not secure and boom...you are in trouble.

Considering that most plastic cases handguns come in qualify as secure with a lock on them and you can pry most of them open I'd say your argument fails.

MP301
02-11-2009, 11:03 PM
Let me know how that works out for you.....

XDshooter
02-12-2009, 12:09 AM
Seriously, where do these people come from?

Plenty of posts and still no idea of the law. I always wonder.


is it consealed ? is the ammo in the same ' locked container'?
SEE you in 10..... Sorry,nice try.


it'd be concealed. I don't think it'll work. It's like locking up your gun case in the car but throwing it in your backpack?

XDshooter
02-12-2009, 12:13 AM
If you are on foot and it is a handgun might want to consider 12026.2, which list some places to go, someone in a few seconds can better explain it. There is also an open carry factor if you are willing to take that risk.


DING DING DING, we have a winner. Well, almost, it's 12026.2

When not in a vehicle, you will only be exempt from 12025 (concealed carry) if you are going to or from one of the places listed in 12026.2.

When the handgun is in the vehicle, then 12026.1 gets you exempt from 12025 conviction and does not require going to or from any specific place.

Theseus
02-12-2009, 1:30 AM
Considering that most plastic cases handguns come in qualify as secure with a lock on them and you can pry most of them open I'd say your argument fails.

I am not going by simply my argument, but the fact that it has been given to me as advise from legal representation.

If the case can be pried open when in a locked situation so that the weapon can be removed without the use of a tool it is not considered "secure".

Take the example the Springfield Armory case my XD 40 came in. It does lock, but even when locked one can simply unlatch the latches and pry the case open and remove the firearm WITHOUT using any tool or unlocking the case. It is not a secure case.

Backpacks with the zippers locked together can still be opened and access to the firearm obtained WITHOUT THE USE OF A TOOL. It will damage the bag, but at that point can no longer be considered "secure".

When you understand the legal issue I am in you might understand. They will find ANYTHING they can to convict you. If they want a reason they will find it unless you are careful. I am simply trying to help everyone be careful enough to not have to worry about it. I used to think it was clear. I was under the false impression that the lock made it secure, but it doesn't.

Now, if the soft case or backpack had a locking system that prevented the zippers from being pried open then I think you might have a winning soft case that fits the bill.

Librarian
02-12-2009, 2:00 AM
I am not going by simply my argument, but the fact that it has been given to me as advise from legal representation.

If the case can be pried open when in a locked situation so that the weapon can be removed without the use of a tool it is not considered "secure".

Now this is important. It's the first professional guidance I've seen.

PC does not define "secure", so we often get questions on what would be satisfactory.

I proposed the "ten-year-old" rule here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1711983&postcount=22).

... the "ten-year-old" rule: any container which can be opened, entered or otherwise defeated by an average ten year old boy, without the key or the combination, and without cutting or smashing tools, is too weak to be even laughably called "secure".
That's largely facetious, of course, but based on Theseus's received advice, we're quibbling over the amount of force or the amount of damage necessary so that a person might look at a container and judge whether it is obviously UNsecure.

randy
02-12-2009, 2:03 AM
Theseus you may be right but I'm not going for it. If the case is locked and you must damage the case to get to the firearm then it was secure for transportation. That's all that matters as far as I remember. I'm excluding any ammo here there arguments.

captn-tin
02-12-2009, 7:32 AM
sound like someone needs to develope a minature zipper lock that were once used for bank bags. the zipper pull tab(for lack of a better word) is almost completely enclosed under the lock. design one small enough for a inside the jacket zipper pocket.

tba02
02-12-2009, 9:28 AM
I would argue that though lockable, a pocket would not be considered a secure container (or a container whatsoever).

Decoligny
02-12-2009, 9:34 AM
is it consealed ? is the ammo in the same ' locked container'?
SEE you in 10..... Sorry,nice try.

There is no prohibition from carrying the ammo in the same locked container anywhere in the California Penal Code.

SevenFifty
02-12-2009, 9:42 AM
Just get the Dillon Plan B (http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23863/catid/14/Dillon__039_s___039_Plan_B__039__Day_Planner).
It has zippers that lock to a fixed ring and cannot be pried open.
Fits my Glock 23 and 1 mag perfectly...

Decoligny
02-12-2009, 9:43 AM
Theseus you may be right but I'm not going for it. If the case is locked and you must damage the case to get to the firearm then it was secure for transportation. That's all that matters as far as I remember. I'm excluding any ammo here there arguments.



1. If the case is locked.
2. You must damage it to get the firearm out.

So based on these requirements: I can reasonably take an empty Cheerios box, a hole punch, and put a hole in each of the top flaps so I can put a padlock through them, and lock my gun inside. :rolleyes:

Hmmm. It's locked, and tearing the cardboard would indeed damage the case.

Must be secure. :stupid:

I'm gonna go make myself a new case right now. :whistling:

vrand
02-12-2009, 9:48 AM
Just get the Dillon Plan B (http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23863/catid/14/Dillon__039_s___039_Plan_B__039__Day_Planner).
It has zippers that lock to a fixed ring and cannot be pried open.
Fits my Glock 23 and 1 mag perfectly...

nice

N6ATF
02-12-2009, 10:03 AM
1. If the case is locked.
2. You must damage it to get the firearm out.

So based on these requirements: I can reasonably take an empty Cheerios box, a hole punch, and put a hole in each of the top flaps so I can put a padlock through them, and lock my gun inside. :rolleyes:

Hmmm. It's locked, and tearing the cardboard would indeed damage the case.

Must be secure. :stupid:

I'm gonna go make myself a new case right now. :whistling:

There's one extreme, the other is a pin tumbler+retinal scanner safe. That can also be damaged to get the firearm out. But who's to say how much damage, or what tools are needed? If you only need fingernails, that's clearly not secure.

Decoligny
02-12-2009, 10:07 AM
There's one extreme, the other is a pin tumbler+retinal scanner safe. That can also be damaged to get the firearm out. But who's to say how much damage, or what tools are needed? If you only need fingernails, that's clearly not secure.

As they were saying in the previous posts,

"If the case can be pried open when in a locked situation so that the weapon can be removed without the use of a tool it is not considered "secure"."

N6ATF
02-12-2009, 10:27 AM
Well, only Theseus said the magic word tool, the lack of which would be no deterrent to opening his Springfield Armory case or a backpack (implying practically any bag with zippers on it).

Personally I have a locked bag with masterlocked zippers and I don't see how I could damage it enough with my own hands, feet, and teeth to get at my gun inside.

Though I've never met Theseus, maybe he's Bruce Banner.

Cypren
02-12-2009, 10:45 AM
Though I've never met Theseus, maybe he's Bruce Banner.

I hear Bruce Banner is afraid of making Theseus angry. :43:

DDT
02-12-2009, 10:47 AM
Theseus you may be right but I'm not going for it. If the case is locked and you must damage the case to get to the firearm then it was secure for transportation. That's all that matters as far as I remember. I'm excluding any ammo here there arguments.

I don't think that this is Theseus' personal position as you can see in his latest post. I am not usually one appeal to authority but knowing that Theseus' attorneys are the best and brightest in the field I am inclined to accept their opinion of what is defensible.

DDT
02-12-2009, 10:48 AM
As they were saying in the previous posts,

"If the case can be pried open when in a locked situation so that the weapon can be removed without the use of a tool it is not considered "secure"."

Is a bullet considered a tool?



Oh, sorry that's for a different thread..... :D

FreshTapCoke
02-12-2009, 11:30 AM
I've thought about this for myself, and my take on it is that for me to do this, the container would have to be of a build that would prevent an officer from being able to infer that it contained a firearm.

My line of thinking is, if the officer can discern you're carrying a firearm, he could probably press for a 12031 loaded firearm check. If it's not discernible, then a locked container search would require a warrant, no?

GuyW
02-12-2009, 11:59 AM
"If the case can be pried open when in a locked situation so that the weapon can be removed without the use of a tool it is not considered "secure"."

Is this an Iggy joke??
.

Kestryll
02-12-2009, 12:00 PM
Just get the Dillon Plan B (http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23863/catid/14/Dillon__039_s___039_Plan_B__039__Day_Planner).
It has zippers that lock to a fixed ring and cannot be pried open.
Fits my Glock 23 and 1 mag perfectly...

I have one of those, fits my Beretta 9000s and 1 mag just right! ;)

Theseus
02-12-2009, 3:50 PM
Again, I was under the presumption that the XD case was secure as well and never thought otherwise until someone showed me that it wasn't.

I worked under the same premise that most here were. Don't hate the messenger!

grammaton76
02-12-2009, 3:58 PM
The last time this came up, what I took away from it was like so:

1. Concealed carry is generally forbidden, unless exempted by locking status and specific destination.

2. Locked container is not really well defined, but I did secure a Blackhawk hip pouch a while back and found that a TSA luggage lock through the bottom rings of the zippers didn't provide any slack you could operate the gun through. The top rings are absolutely unsafe. You could perhaps get nailed for a camouflaging firearms container using the top rings.

3. It appears to me that "briefcase carry" or "plan-B carry" is still stuck with specific destination requirements. I've heard that The Right People consider this to be valid for carrying around, but absolutely no one (including after a PM request to one) has given me a reason why this is doable without breaking the law.

MudCamper
02-12-2009, 10:07 PM
If the case is locked and you must damage the case to get to the firearm then it was secure for transportation. That's all that matters as far as I remember.

So based on these requirements: I can reasonably take an empty Cheerios box, a hole punch, and put a hole in each of the top flaps so I can put a padlock through them, and lock my gun inside. :rolleyes:

There's one extreme, the other is a pin tumbler+retinal scanner safe. That can also be damaged to get the firearm out. But who's to say how much damage, or what tools are needed? If you only need fingernails, that's clearly not secure.

As they were saying in the previous posts,

"If the case can be pried open when in a locked situation so that the weapon can be removed without the use of a tool it is not considered "secure"."

There is no PC, no legal documents, no case law, nor anything to support any of this silliness. All we have is this:

12026.1 (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

12026.2 (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.

Everything else is interpretation, opinion, or FUD. Pay it no attention, unless it's coming from an attorney who's specialty is CA firearms law.

Do what you feel comfortable with. IMO a soft case like a Plan B is secure. IMO a zipped, locked jacket pocket will not qualify in the eyes of a cop and a DA (assuming you somehow get caught). As always, whatever you do, have your attorney's phone number handy.

DDT
02-12-2009, 10:22 PM
Everything else is interpretation, opinion, or FUD. Pay it no attention, unless it's coming from an attorney who's specialty is CA firearms law.


And just who do you suppose the attorney who advised Theseus is?

E Pluribus Unum
02-12-2009, 10:35 PM
It might be important to point out that the "locked container" exemption only applies to vehicles.


12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Otherwise... one must use a SPECIFIC destination located in 12026.2:

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.

(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.

(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined
in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations,
for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that
firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section
2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to
that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the
law enforcement agency.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the
law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to
the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose
of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that
firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.



Then there are the exceptions in 12027 which are superior to all others I feel:


12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(a) Any peace officer
(2) A retired peace officer,
(3) An honorably retired peace officer
(b) a person who is engaged in the business of dealing in
firearms
(c) Members of the armed forces, when on duty
(d) The carrying of unloaded pistols by military or civil organizations
(e) Guards or messengers of common carriers
(f) Members of organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms unloaded when going to and from the ranges.
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.
(h) Transportation of unloaded firearms by a person operating a licensed common carrier
(i) Upon approval of the sheriff of the county in which they reside, honorably retired federal officers
(j) The carrying of a pistol by a person who is authorized to carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050). (CCW permit holders)

tombinghamthegreat
02-12-2009, 11:00 PM
DING DING DING, we have a winner. Well, almost, it's 12026.2

Actually if you look a post 6 i put 12026.2 since there was some bad intel being posted...

MudCamper
02-13-2009, 9:10 AM
And just who do you suppose the attorney who advised Theseus is?

Bruce Colodny.

The Plan B, locked, would take me just as much time to break into with a screwdriver or a knife as it would take me to break into any portable steel lockbox with a big screwdriver. Given that, by the logic argued here, there is no such thing as a secure case at all. We're all in violation of 12025 every time we go to the range.

Again, just do what you are comfortable with.

Decoligny
02-13-2009, 11:08 AM
I've thought about this for myself, and my take on it is that for me to do this, the container would have to be of a build that would prevent an officer from being able to infer that it contained a firearm.

My line of thinking is, if the officer can discern you're carrying a firearm, he could probably press for a 12031 loaded firearm check. If it's not discernible, then a locked container search would require a warrant, no?

We are talking about it being legal, not it being free from the examination of the Police.

If it was shaped like a gun, but fully enclosed the gun, and was secure and was locked, then it would be perfectly legal to conceal a firearm inside the container. It could even have the words "Gun Inside" written in neon yellow.

Being subject to a 12031e check does not mean that you are violating 12025.

grammaton76
02-13-2009, 11:55 AM
I would say one thing... while we're taking the detour into soft containers vs hard containers, I think one element of the OP's question pertains to 'carry' - i.e. being able to have a gun on you, exempt from prosecution under concealment statutes due to its locked-case status.

As far as I can tell, there is no such exemption, and you're subject to specific destination requirements even if it's in a locked case.

A transparent locked case worn at the hip MAY actually qualify for exemption from school zones and specific destinations (due to being simultaneously "non-concealed" and "locked"), but nothing appears to exempt from concealment prohibitions without a specific destination.

Decoligny
02-13-2009, 12:45 PM
I would say one thing... while we're taking the detour into soft containers vs hard containers, I think one element of the OP's question pertains to 'carry' - i.e. being able to have a gun on you, exempt from prosecution under concealment statutes due to its locked-case status.

As far as I can tell, there is no such exemption, and you're subject to specific destination requirements even if it's in a locked case.

A transparent locked case worn at the hip MAY actually qualify for exemption from school zones and specific destinations (due to being simultaneously "non-concealed" and "locked"), but nothing appears to exempt from concealment prohibitions without a specific destination.

Unless he is in a motor vehicle. 12026.1, due to 12026.1 and 12026.2 being independent of each other.

DDT
02-13-2009, 1:07 PM
What we need is a Kydex mini-cavalry style holster that fully encloses and has a biometric lock. It might be difficult to conceal but would be a neat toy and a tad bit more discreet than open carry.

N6ATF
02-13-2009, 1:22 PM
I'd hate to trust my life to electronics working when I need them.

DDT
02-13-2009, 1:27 PM
I'd hate to trust my life to electronics working when I need them.

What year car do you drive? Ever fly in an airplane? On a train? Where there are stop lights? I do understand what you are saying though. It is just an option that would be considerably faster than most others under our draconian California gun laws.

grammaton76
02-13-2009, 1:41 PM
Unless he is in a motor vehicle. 12026.1, due to 12026.1 and 12026.2 being independent of each other.

True... so basically what is being gained there, is "trunk gun" like status for a handgun, regardless of whether or not it's in an actual trunk.

No ability to "carry" is really gained, other than at specific destinations, but it's more accessible than otherwise.

I just use a long gun as a trunk gun, but I guess others' mileage may vary.

grammaton76
02-13-2009, 1:42 PM
What we need is a Kydex mini-cavalry style holster that fully encloses and has a biometric lock. It might be difficult to conceal but would be a neat toy and a tad bit more discreet than open carry.

What's the advantage of even trying to conceal it? It's functionally just a trunk gun since you don't have an exemption to carry (other than specific destinations and while in your vehicle).

If what you're really looking for is vehicle carry, there's plenty of really slick locking mini-safes that will fit into your center console.

DDT
02-13-2009, 1:45 PM
What's the advantage of even trying to conceal it? It's functionally just a trunk gun since you don't have an exemption to carry (other than specific destinations and while in your vehicle).

If what you're really looking for is vehicle carry, there's plenty of really slick locking mini-safes that will fit into your center console.

A lot of people here (not me) often carry a firearm in a locked container that is not clearly a firearm. The important thing to remember is that you need to be able to recite the exempted destinations and which one you will be going to if you are ever stopped.

vrand
02-13-2009, 2:01 PM
True... so basically what is being gained there, is "trunk gun" like status for a handgun, regardless of whether or not it's in an actual trunk.

No ability to "carry" is really gained, other than at specific destinations, but it's more accessible than otherwise.

I just use a long gun as a trunk gun, but I guess others' mileage may vary.

You still have the option to UOC a hand gun while in the car, or even out of the car.

grammaton76
02-13-2009, 2:04 PM
You still have the option to UOC a hand gun while in the car, or even out of the car.

Sure, but this is different from what I was responding to - folks looking for fully enclosed containers. It's not UOC if the weapon is in a container.

Locked containers are exempt from concealment, as long as they're either in a vehicle or you have a specific destination.

vrand
02-13-2009, 2:27 PM
Sure, but this is different from what I was responding to - folks looking for fully enclosed containers. It's not UOC if the weapon is in a container.

Locked containers are exempt from concealment, as long as they're either in a vehicle or you have a specific destination.

:thumbsup:

E Pluribus Unum
02-13-2009, 7:16 PM
You still have the option to UOC a hand gun while in the car, or even out of the car.

This is only true if you avoid every single school in your area.

You would need to take a map, draw a 1000 foot circle around every single K-12 school and pick a route that avoids every single circle.

In the country this is fairly easy but in any reasonably-sized city this will be impossible unless you invent a GPS-controlled gun lock.

vrand
02-13-2009, 7:25 PM
This is only true if you avoid every single school in your area.

You would need to take a map, draw a 1000 foot circle around every single K-12 school and pick a route that avoids every single circle.

In the country this is fairly easy but in any reasonably-sized city this will be impossible unless you invent a GPS-controlled gun lock.

yep, crazy law.

Needs to be challenged in court.

Decoligny
02-13-2009, 7:38 PM
This is only true if you avoid every single school in your area.

You would need to take a map, draw a 1000 foot circle around every single K-12 school and pick a route that avoids every single circle.

In the country this is fairly easy but in any reasonably-sized city this will be impossible unless you invent a GPS-controlled gun lock.

Not necessarily true.

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

You only have to avoid the ones that you know about, or should know about.

If you are driving down the freeway and pass 30 schools within 500 feet of the freeway, there is no reasonable way for you to know where these schools are.

If you are driving down the street in your own neighborhood, and there is a school on the next block (300 feet away) you should reasonably know where the schools are in your own neighborhood.

If you are driving down a street in an unknown town, and suddenly see a sign that says "School Crossing" you better be real quick on getting the gun into the lockbox.

DDT
02-13-2009, 7:41 PM
Sure, but this is different from what I was responding to - folks looking for fully enclosed containers. It's not UOC if the weapon is in a container.

But if the locked container were essentially a locked holster you couldn't get busted for a GFSZ violation. now, is this a silly thing to have to do in order to exercise your first amendment rights? yes! it is better than a "trunk gun" as you called it? Yes!

vrand
02-13-2009, 7:50 PM
Not necessarily true.

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

You only have to avoid the ones that you know about, or should know about.

If you are driving down the freeway and pass 30 schools within 500 feet of the freeway, there is no reasonable way for you to know where these schools are.

If you are driving down the street in your own neighborhood, and there is a school on the next block (300 feet away) you should reasonably know where the schools are in your own neighborhood.

If you are driving down a street in an unknown town, and suddenly see a sign that says "School Crossing" you better be real quick on getting the gun into the lockbox.

Okay, that makes more sense.

E Pluribus Unum
02-13-2009, 8:45 PM
Not necessarily true.

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

You only have to avoid the ones that you know about, or should know about.

If you are driving down the freeway and pass 30 schools within 500 feet of the freeway, there is no reasonable way for you to know where these schools are.

If you are driving down the street in your own neighborhood, and there is a school on the next block (300 feet away) you should reasonably know where the schools are in your own neighborhood.

If you are driving down a street in an unknown town, and suddenly see a sign that says "School Crossing" you better be real quick on getting the gun into the lockbox.

Yes.... it IS true...

Whether or not a person should have REASONABLY known would be a jury question.

That still puts you in jail... and gets you spending tens of thousands on a defense.

Justice
02-14-2009, 7:25 AM
I'm sorry, but many of us on here keep saying something to the extent of, "while in a car" (12026.1), "or between specific destinations" (12026.2). What seems to he getting skipped over in the "locked container" exemption from concealed carry is, "directly to or from your motor vehicle for any lawful purpose" from 12026.1. Meaning that 12026.1 does NOT only apply when IN your motor vehicle "trunk gun", and that it leaves a TON of interpretation as to where you could be ending up when moving "directly from" your car.

DDT
02-14-2009, 8:28 AM
the problem is that "directly from" ignores the fact that some people may not be using their car when going directly to one of the locations listed. As long as you can specifically say you were on your way directly to one of the exempted locations there should be no problem.

Justice
02-14-2009, 9:03 AM
Very true, if you can reasonably claim that you were in transit between any of the exemptions listed in 12026.2, wether it be on foot, by bike or whatever, you're good.

My point is that, we were getting wrapped up in 12026.1 being about being inside your vehicle and it's not. It just oddly has to do with both when inside your vehicle AND when you happen to be using your car to get around and have to leave it. The fun is in the grey area that is the fact that no specific destination going "from" your car is mentioned other than, "for any legal purpose."

HowardW56
02-14-2009, 9:35 AM
There is one major issue that needs to be considered. The container must be secure!

One of the problems with soft cases is that if, even with a lock they can be pried to a point were the weapon can be removed then it can be deemed not secure and boom...you are in trouble.

Where is that defined?

Ironchef
02-14-2009, 9:41 AM
EPU makes a good point showing that 12025 is for concealed handguns inside a vehicle. What of being on foot, on bicycle, on a train, etc.? I am guessing cops use 12025 for people on foot unless there's some other code discussing non-vehicular concealed transport of a gun.

I remember calling BART PD once asking about transporting a handgun while on bart...i was told as long as it was in a locked container..and preferably not visually noticeable as a gun would be ok. I called expecting to be told not to transport a firearm on BART. Guess I should have asked what code they referred to. Also, they didn't indicate there had to be a specific route for the gun to go to.

Gramm,
I'd like to know where you're getting the 'destination' language that suggests you have to be going somewhere where the gun can legally go? I've heard that a few times but don't recall any support for it.


As for the "secure" condition of a gun container...I think since there is no code or case law defining it, that the "reasonable" judgment needs to be exercised...as in the "10 year" rule. If a child can get through the container to the gun, it is reasonable to believe it's not secure. I'm sure there's jury instructions for such a definition to be made. Who'd like to be the test for this?

Theseus
02-14-2009, 12:30 PM
Where is that defined?

The meaning of secure should be known by all. If not, there are many dictionaries that you can access to get a definition.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secure

There are many ways something can be secure, but in this situation and use it seems clear to me. When using the original XD case I generally ignored the use of the word "secure".

The gun can be removed from the case even with the case being locked. That is, by definition, NOT SECURE.

If you can't understand what the definition of secure is then I can't help you. Just be warned that they can use this against you and likely will if they need to.

E Pluribus Unum
02-14-2009, 12:39 PM
EPU makes a good point showing that 12025 is for concealed handguns inside a vehicle. What of being on foot, on bicycle, on a train, etc.? I am guessing cops use 12025 for people on foot unless there's some other code discussing non-vehicular concealed transport of a gun.

I remember calling BART PD once asking about transporting a handgun while on bart...i was told as long as it was in a locked container..and preferably not visually noticeable as a gun would be ok. I called expecting to be told not to transport a firearm on BART. Guess I should have asked what code they referred to. Also, they didn't indicate there had to be a specific route for the gun to go to.

Gramm,
I'd like to know where you're getting the 'destination' language that suggests you have to be going somewhere where the gun can legally go? I've heard that a few times but don't recall any support for it.


As for the "secure" condition of a gun container...I think since there is no code or case law defining it, that the "reasonable" judgment needs to be exercised...as in the "10 year" rule. If a child can get through the container to the gun, it is reasonable to believe it's not secure. I'm sure there's jury instructions for such a definition to be made. Who'd like to be the test for this?


12025 covers concealed carry in a vehicle or a person. It is 12026.1 that covers a vehicle and 12026.2 that covers a person.

HowardW56
02-14-2009, 12:59 PM
EPU makes a good point showing that 12025 is for concealed handguns inside a vehicle. What of being on foot, on bicycle, on a train, etc.? I am guessing cops use 12025 for people on foot unless there's some other code discussing non-vehicular concealed transport of a gun.

I remember calling BART PD once asking about transporting a handgun while on bart...i was told as long as it was in a locked container..and preferably not visually noticeable as a gun would be ok. I called expecting to be told not to transport a firearm on BART. Guess I should have asked what code they referred to. Also, they didn't indicate there had to be a specific route for the gun to go to.

Gramm,
I'd like to know where you're getting the 'destination' language that suggests you have to be going somewhere where the gun can legally go? I've heard that a few times but don't recall any support for it.


As for the "secure" condition of a gun container...I think since there is no code or case law defining it, that the "reasonable" judgment needs to be exercised...as in the "10 year" rule. If a child can get through the container to the gun, it is reasonable to believe it's not secure. I'm sure there's jury instructions for such a definition to be made. Who'd like to be the test for this?

I nominate THESEUS to be the test subject (CASE)...

Theseus
02-14-2009, 1:06 PM
I already am, sort of.

Post 666....Oh no!!!

grammaton76
02-14-2009, 3:50 PM
Gramm,
I'd like to know where you're getting the 'destination' language that suggests you have to be going somewhere where the gun can legally go? I've heard that a few times but don't recall any support for it.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=142861

I started this thread some time ago, after doing a lot of reading and poring over on 12026.1 and 12026.2. I read numerous statements that "the right people" feel comfortable with a gun in a locked attache case as the "poor man's CCW".

Ultimately, it was concluded that there is really no "poor man's CCW" without specific destinations. A locked case functions just fine, exempting you from school zones and concealment law, as long as a specific destination applies.

As for the "secure" condition of a gun container...I think since there is no code or case law defining it, that the "reasonable" judgment needs to be exercised...as in the "10 year" rule. If a child can get through the container to the gun, it is reasonable to believe it's not secure. I'm sure there's jury instructions for such a definition to be made. Who'd like to be the test for this?

No disagreement here.

Ironchef
02-14-2009, 4:11 PM
Thanks for the support Gramm, and correction EPU.

You know, I think I saw somewhere on here someone with an idea of using an enclosed holster (1911 GI issue type) that had a simple combo or button lock on it. that's sounds like the best way to go (for concealed carry under a coat)..otherwise, UOC is the best.

grammaton76
02-14-2009, 4:31 PM
Thanks for the support Gramm, and correction EPU.

You know, I think I saw somewhere on here someone with an idea of using an enclosed holster (1911 GI issue type) that had a simple combo or button lock on it. that's sounds like the best way to go (for concealed carry under a coat)..otherwise, UOC is the best.

Only if it completely encloses the weapon. The flap can be pushed out of the way on most flap-style holsters, allowing you to touch the weapon.

As a social experiment, I wore one of these for a week around town, walking right past LEOs and security guards, to theaters, to dinner, to work... wherever. No one even glanced at it, even when it contained the (pistol shaped) forward PG of a Romanian G kit and was secured by a TSA lock run through the bottom two loops of the zipper. I was really surprised about this at work, as folks like to give me a hard time about when I'm "coming to blow everyone away"...

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-781-IMG1.jpeg

Librarian
02-14-2009, 6:22 PM
As for the "secure" condition of a gun container...I think since there is no code or case law defining it, that the "reasonable" judgment needs to be exercised...as in the "10 year" rule. If a child can get through the container to the gun, it is reasonable to believe it's not secure.I'd hope that one would be obvious :)
I'm sure there's jury instructions for such a definition to be made. Who'd like to be the test for this?
Surprisingly, no jury instruction exists for that.

Did see one for 'concealed', another term the PC does not define: “If a firearm is transported in a vehicle in such a manner as to be invisible unless its carrying case is opened, it is concealed in the ordinary and usual meaning of the term.” (People v. Hodges (1999) 70 Cal.App.4th 1348, 1355 [83 Cal.Rptr.2d 619].)

So, 'ordinary and usual meaning of the term' is a good baseline: se·cure adj
1. untroubled by feelings of fear, doubt, or vulnerability
2. firmly fixed or placed in position and unlikely to come loose or give way
3. reliable and unlikely to fail or be lost
4. well guarded and strongly fortified or protected
5. safe, especially against attack or theft
6. safe to use for secret or confidential communication
7. certain to be achieved or gained

Encarta® World English Dictionary ... which doesn't really leave us any clearer, does it?

vrand
02-15-2009, 10:36 AM
Only if it completely encloses the weapon. The flap can be pushed out of the way on most flap-style holsters, allowing you to touch the weapon.

As a social experiment, I wore one of these for a week around town, walking right past LEOs and security guards, to theaters, to dinner, to work... wherever. No one even glanced at it, even when it contained the (pistol shaped) forward PG of a Romanian G kit and was secured by a TSA lock run through the bottom two loops of the zipper. I was really surprised about this at work, as folks like to give me a hard time about when I'm "coming to blow everyone away"...

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-781-IMG1.jpeg

Excellent :thumbsup:

TheBundo
02-15-2009, 12:04 PM
1. If the case is locked.
2. You must damage it to get the firearm out.

So based on these requirements: I can reasonably take an empty Cheerios box, a hole punch, and put a hole in each of the top flaps so I can put a padlock through them, and lock my gun inside. :rolleyes:

Hmmm. It's locked, and tearing the cardboard would indeed damage the case.

Must be secure. :stupid:

I'm gonna go make myself a new case right now. :whistling:

Actually, if you want to carry a gun around town in a cereal box, Grape Nuts are the way to go. That is one HEAVY cereal. You can eat only a small fraction, volume in the bowl-wise, as much as any other cereal. Just put the gun into the cereal, and the difference wouldn't even be noticed. Then GLUE the box shut to lock it. Then walk around like you have bad hemmoroids, and nobody will do anything but grin, certainly not suspect anything.

Kid Stanislaus
02-16-2009, 10:24 AM
There's one extreme, the other is a pin tumbler+retinal scanner safe. That can also be damaged to get the firearm out. But who's to say how much damage, or what tools are needed? If you only need fingernails, that's clearly not secure.


Maybe we need to put the gun in a 2" thick steel box, weld it shut, and open it with a cutting torch when we get to the range?

sorensen440
02-16-2009, 10:30 AM
Maybe we need to put the gun in a 2" thick steel box, weld it shut, and open it with a cutting torch when we get to the range?
Its obviously not secure if you can open it with a cutting torch

N6ATF
02-16-2009, 10:49 AM
Or C-4.

Kestryll
02-16-2009, 11:05 AM
Only if it completely encloses the weapon. The flap can be pushed out of the way on most flap-style holsters, allowing you to touch the weapon.

As a social experiment, I wore one of these for a week around town, walking right past LEOs and security guards, to theaters, to dinner, to work... wherever. No one even glanced at it, even when it contained the (pistol shaped) forward PG of a Romanian G kit and was secured by a TSA lock run through the bottom two loops of the zipper. I was really surprised about this at work, as folks like to give me a hard time about when I'm "coming to blow everyone away"...

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-781-IMG1.jpeg

Looks just like my Uncle Mike's Gun Pouch.
I used it for my wallet, business cards, cell phone and Lactaid.
I've worn it on it's own 2" wide Fastex belt for years and never had a question.

Meplat
02-16-2009, 12:03 PM
Number four could be somewhat instructive.;)


I'd hope that one would be obvious :)

Surprisingly, no jury instruction exists for that.

Did see one for 'concealed', another term the PC does not define:

So, 'ordinary and usual meaning of the term' is a good baseline: ... which doesn't really leave us any clearer, does it?

IAmASensFan
02-16-2009, 2:02 PM
put the bong down and step away.

ROTFLMAO!!!

That was great...thanks...

CA_Libertarian
02-16-2009, 8:22 PM
There's one extreme, the other is a pin tumbler+retinal scanner safe. That can also be damaged to get the firearm out. But who's to say how much damage, or what tools are needed? If you only need fingernails, that's clearly not secure.

Who's to say?

Now, we are at the crux of the matter!

The judge and/or jury will decide if the container in question meets the standard of being "secure." They will likely read the definition from a legal text, and then the judge will either instruct the jury of his criteria for 'secure' or (a good judge) would allow the jury to determine reasonable criteria based on the evidence. (Based on most of the cases I've read, I believe we would see the former, not the latter.)

The bottom line isn't what any of us here think. It is what the judge and/or jury will think when you're on trial. So, choose your 'secure' container at your own risk. It is unlikely anything anybody says here will make a difference when you're on trial.

Theseus
02-17-2009, 8:18 AM
Nooo!!!!!

What I say is LAW!!!

When Theseus does it it isn't illegal!!!

Obey!! Obey!! Obey!! ;)

Seriously though, CA_Libertarian is right to a point. Having a "secure" case is a way to maybe help keep a charge from being brought, but if they want to push it the jury will ultimately decide. The benefit of being safer than sorry is how likely you might be to convince a jury.

Who's to say?

Now, we are at the crux of the matter!

The judge and/or jury will decide if the container in question meets the standard of being "secure." They will likely read the definition from a legal text, and then the judge will either instruct the jury of his criteria for 'secure' or (a good judge) would allow the jury to determine reasonable criteria based on the evidence. (Based on most of the cases I've read, I believe we would see the former, not the latter.)

The bottom line isn't what any of us here think. It is what the judge and/or jury will think when you're on trial. So, choose your 'secure' container at your own risk. It is unlikely anything anybody says here will make a difference when you're on trial.