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Jon Se
02-10-2009, 9:48 PM
A friend of mine showed me this article tonight on concealed carry on campus:

Some choice bits:

[SCCW] has over 35,000 members, and its membership continues to grow.

However, any student who wants to live and learn on a safe campus should consider this growth troubling, and the organization is mistaken to believe that throwing more guns at the problem is the solution to preventing gun violence on campuses. The idea of not only allowing, but also encouraging students to carry firearms on campus goes against the main ideals that a college campus strives to teach. In any institute of learning, the goal is to develop culturally aware students who have the ability to recognize and deter ignorant perspectives of the world we live in. Putting together an organization that promotes fear and violence in the name of protection is just that ignorant.

The campus environment should be inherently safe, as each person on campus is striving toward the same goal. As students, we should strive for a better community because we understand that this will improve our education. The idea of promoting the carrying of firearms will only cultivate a culture of fear, which promotes violence and only makes incidents of school shootings more likely to happen.


Source: http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=shooting_down_concealed_guns178

Funny how all this time we thought Brady et al were the ones spreading the fear. And perhaps before calling 35,000 people ignorant they should check some of their facts.

Any UCI students are welcome to sent comments to newuopinion@newuniversity.org

DarkHorse
02-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Dude - if I could carry a gun on campus, I would be less afraid. People who write articles like this really don't think. They only imagine college campuses to be filled w/18-22 yr old boys and girls. Tell these folks to take a night course at a community college in a not-so-nice neighborhood. I knew plenty of gals that refused to take night classes because every semester there were women getting assualted while walking back to their cars at night.

Woudn't it be ignorant to believe that people aren't shoting each other right now simply because they aren't allowed to take guns on campus? This person knows nothing of the RKBA and SCCW, which makes him/her ignorant.

What a maroon.

wolf13
02-10-2009, 10:19 PM
Up in Davis, we had an article on it, in as neutral tone I have seen, and are starting a group. If anyone wants to join the Davis chapter, just PM me.

As a side note, Davis just had an editorial on how the campus also ranks the highest on sexual assaults out of the campuses, and that there is going to be a cut in funding for certain women's rights classes.

rayra
02-10-2009, 10:23 PM
What a fatuous article. And uses 'Ideals' where it really means 'liberal ideological groupthink'.
UCI, the campus where the Jihad is in full sway and the Dean / adminstration are utter cowards.

/spit

vrand
02-10-2009, 10:25 PM
What a fatuous article. And uses 'Ideals' where it really means 'liberal ideological groupthink'.
UCI, the campus where the Jihad is in full sway and the Dean / adminstration are utter cowards.

/spit

yep

CCWFacts
02-10-2009, 10:26 PM
In any institute of learning, the goal is to develop culturally aware students who have the ability to recognize and deter ignorant perspectives of the world we live in.

When will these fools figure out a couple of important facts:


Mass shooting perpetrators are seriously mentally ill, usually planning to die in their attacks
No amount of cultural understanding or singing kumbaya does anything to stop serious mental illness, because serious mental illness is a physiological defect in the brain, in how the brain itself is wired
Bullets are the only thing known to able to alter the decision-making process of a violent mentally ill person, and the sooner bullets are introduced into the person's skull, the sooner the shooting stops


Oh yeah, UCI allows students to CCW on campus.

hotfire
02-11-2009, 1:51 AM
As a UCI student I am not surprised that an article like this is written because UCI is all liberal. It makes me feel weird talking about my range trips because I've gotten some dirty looks from people when I talk about it. CCW will never be passed at this campus, but I am curious to find out how the schools that did pass the ccw, has affected their sense of security.

rc50cal
02-11-2009, 11:00 AM
I also attend UCI. I don't think the student body is as liberal as you think. The students are just scared of firearms. Some of the most political and socially conservative people I know are also deathly afraid of firearms. Until we can teach them not to be scared, they are going to spout off nonsense like this.

Sam
02-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Up in Davis, we had an article on it, in as neutral tone I have seen, and are starting a group. If anyone wants to join the Davis chapter, just PM me.

As a side note, Davis just had an editorial on how the campus also ranks the highest on sexual assaults out of the campuses, and that there is going to be a cut in funding for certain women's rights classes.

It was far from neutral. Reread the article online. I don't believe basing (and passing it off as truth) the entire anti-CCW argument based upon an administration official whose own research didn't find any substantial conclusions against CCW is quite neutral, don't you agree? The admin official essentially said: "my research didn't reinforce my already held assumptions and beliefs but I'm going to tell you those assumptions and beliefs are true because I think they are."

That editorial was also flawed. I'm having trouble seeing how the number of sexual assaults on campus corresponds with the psychological therapy programs that the editorial wants. They assume that assaults would somehow go down if these programs weren't cut, which puts the horse in front of the carriage. I'm quite certain that if we got women to pack some heat, sexual assaults would plummet.

The Aggie newspaper is a piece of trash for the most part. They had some funny columnists and cartoonists a few years ago but now it's junk. Also take a look at the police reports, what a joke. Tell me about something that is more important than a few punk kids loitering. Those weekly reports actually mask the real crimes that are committed in Davis because talking about them is not PC.

sorry for the rant.

-Sam

Cypren
02-11-2009, 11:39 AM
Some of the most political and socially conservative people I know are also deathly afraid of firearms. Until we can teach them not to be scared, they are going to spout off nonsense like this.

I helped out a friend with an intermediate pistol class last week -- this is a class composed of people who have all had at least some training with firearms and shoot regularly. While talking with one of the students about her options for carry guns, the state assault weapons ban came up, and I explained that it was a ban on "guns that look like military weapons."

Her response? "Oh, I think that's a good thing. People don't need those."

We have a lot of work to do even within the shooting community to counter the fears and propaganda that authoritarians and their allies in the media have spent the last forty years building up.

Bruce3
02-11-2009, 11:52 AM
as a student of UCI i can't really say this surprises me at all. if you ever been to Irvine you quickly realize these people live in a bubble. the article is emotion based with no statistics to back up their claims. i find it funny they reference USC as a good example for students being safe in a dangerous environment because my girlfriend goes there and she has plenty of stories. for example the first 2 weeks she started attending there were 3 crime alerts two of which was a class room that took a stray bullet and a kid being held at knife point for his books.

NiteQwill
02-11-2009, 12:14 PM
you can ccw on uci. Their police even blessed off on it, like you need permission... :(

KWA-S
02-11-2009, 12:19 PM
I helped out a friend with an intermediate pistol class last week -- this is a class composed of people who have all had at least some training with firearms and shoot regularly. While talking with one of the students about her options for carry guns, the state assault weapons ban came up, and I explained that it was a ban on "guns that look like military weapons."

Her response? "Oh, I think that's a good thing. People don't need those."

We have a lot of work to do even within the shooting community to counter the fears and propaganda that authoritarians and their allies in the media have spent the last forty years building up.

Give her time...it is my belief that, not only has Obamamania moved more guns 2008 than ever before, but it has gotten anyone even mildly curious about the 2A to look around the internet for ban rumors, find sites like this and read interesting threads that explain the need for "military style weapons."

EDIT: CCW exempts you from the no guns on university campus law? even long guns?
UCSB wont let us keep 2.5" knives or anything that can be dangerous let alone ccw

Dr Rockso
02-11-2009, 12:31 PM
I've been a member of SCCC, but really at California universities you just sound like a crazy person when you talk about CCW on-campus because most of us can't carry off-campus anyway. As a result the uninformed tend to think that we're asking for a special rule, that ONLY college students on campus should be allowed to carry firearms. Obviously we need shall-issue before we can really start the campus carry debate. Promoting shall-issue should be the goal of any pro-CCW student organization, letters to the editor, etc.

wolf13
02-11-2009, 1:25 PM
Sam,

Reread what I wrote. I didn't say it was a neutral article, I said as neutral as it is going to get. It is CA, in Davis, on a college campus, that is as neutral as it is going to get in this town. Saying something is as neutral as it is going to get, doesn't mean that it is a good article, or neutral.

I also never linked the classes, which IMO have nothing to do with the assaults, just mentioned that Davis assaults were up there. I would never have known they were the highest, for the exact reason you just mentioned, they never talk about it. I figured it would be higher than expected, but not the highest.

Trust me, I know what is good, and what is not when it comes to articles, and stats. Having sat through many classes on stats, and how how to manipulate them, by changing the way you do it, they mean nothing when they don't show how they got the numbers. There is actually nothing wrong with doing it mathematically as you don't have to fudge anything. Just take your data, and you can get pretty much whatever you want out of it.

Cypren
02-11-2009, 1:42 PM
CCW exempts you from the no guns on university campus law? even long guns?
UCSB wont let us keep 2.5" knives or anything that can be dangerous let alone ccw

A California CCW permits you to carry in a number of places that ordinary citizens cannot, such as state courthouses (not federal), government buildings (PC 171b(b)(3)), schools, and universities (PC 626.9(l)). It's rather ironic that the state with the most restrictive gun control laws in the country actually allows some of the greatest freedom to firearms owners with carry licenses.

Note that these carry provisions only apply as long as you are carrying in compliance with PC 12050 -- which means that the exemption applies only to the concealable guns listed on your CCW and their ammunition, and not to any other weapons or ammunition of any type.

Edit: Also note that nothing in the law prohibits a state university from administrative discipline, sanctions or expulsion for carrying a weapon on campus. That it is not a crime does not mean that there won't be severe consequences if you're caught. As far as I am aware, all state universities have academic discipline regulations regarding the possession of weapons on campus.

Sam
02-11-2009, 2:35 PM
Sam,

Reread what I wrote. I didn't say it was a neutral article, I said as neutral as it is going to get. It is CA, in Davis, on a college campus, that is as neutral as it is going to get in this town. Saying something is as neutral as it is going to get, doesn't mean that it is a good article, or neutral.

I also never linked the classes, which IMO have nothing to do with the assaults, just mentioned that Davis assaults were up there. I would never have known they were the highest, for the exact reason you just mentioned, they never talk about it. I figured it would be higher than expected, but not the highest.

Trust me, I know what is good, and what is not when it comes to articles, and stats. Having sat through many classes on stats, and how how to manipulate them, by changing the way you do it, they mean nothing when they don't show how they got the numbers. There is actually nothing wrong with doing it mathematically as you don't have to fudge anything. Just take your data, and you can get pretty much whatever you want out of it.

sorry, I skimmed your post and misread it. However, what I said still holds true. About the other article, I always knew that it wasn't you who linked the classes, it was the editorial board. I think Davis has the highest because the campus is quite large and I think there is an underlying sentiment among college students here that Davis is a crime free utopia and thus, they don't have to worry about being aware of their surroundings.

Sam
02-11-2009, 2:43 PM
Edit: Also note that nothing in the law prohibits a state university from administrative discipline, sanctions or expulsion for carrying a weapon on campus. That it is not a crime does not mean that there won't be severe consequences if you're caught. As far as I am aware, all state universities have academic discipline regulations regarding the possession of weapons on campus.

I was going to comment about that. It may be legal, but there are certainly university policies. At Davis they have small signs that say that there is no unauthorized possession of weapons (I believe that's similar wordage). I wonder, does a CCW count as authorized possession of weapons by the state, thereby getting around the sign? That's kinda interesting. If I wasn't a student at the university, I wouldn't worry about the sign at all.

edit: Before I was issued my permit, I signed something stating as a holder I would not break any national, state or local laws or ordinances. I wonder if these policies could be considered "local ordinances."

wolf13
02-11-2009, 3:29 PM
I was going to comment about that. It may be legal, but there are certainly university policies. At Davis they have small signs that say that there is no unauthorized possession of weapons (I believe that's similar wordage). I wonder, does a CCW count as authorized possession of weapons by the state, thereby getting around the sign? That's kinda interesting. If I wasn't a student at the university, I wouldn't worry about the sign at all.

edit: Before I was issued my permit, I signed something stating as a holder I would not break any national, state or local laws or ordinances. I wonder if these policies could be considered "local ordinances."

They have a no weapons policy, and can kick you out of school, but that is as far as it goes. I've never seen the signs, though I haven't tried TOO hard to notice them. Where are they located?

Yeah, I agree with the utopia thing, I don't think I have ever heard people worrying about walking late at night. I see girls walking home in groups of 2-3 at 1-2am every weekend and just shake my head, and that isn't counting the middle of campus going towards the library.

Cypren
02-11-2009, 4:01 PM
edit: Before I was issued my permit, I signed something stating as a holder I would not break any national, state or local laws or ordinances. I wonder if these policies could be considered "local ordinances."

State universities are public property, not private. They are welcome to have their own administrative rules, but they are not governmental agencies that can issue "local ordinances." What I am not entirely clear on -- and you should consult with a knowledgeable attorney on this -- is whether or not carrying a weapon onto a university in defiance of a clearly posted sign would be considered "trespassing," which it would be if they were private property. If so, there could be very serious legal consequences -- trespassing with a deadly weapon is a felony and will cost you your right to bear arms. The corollary question is whether or not a CCW constitutes "authorization" for the purposes of that sign. For that, you should probably call and ask your campus police office. (Preferably anonymously, so you don't wind up on some kind of watch list.) I wouldn't suggest telling them you're a student; simply tell them that you're a California CCW holder who is going to be visiting the campus and you were wondering if you were authorized to carry pursuant to PC 626.9(l).

The SoCal Gunner
02-11-2009, 4:04 PM
As a UCI student I am not surprised that an article like this is written because UCI is all liberal. It makes me feel weird talking about my range trips because I've gotten some dirty looks from people when I talk about it. CCW will never be passed at this campus, but I am curious to find out how the schools that did pass the ccw, has affected their sense of security.

I'm a student as well. At least in one of my classes we talk about guns all the time. My professor seems to be pretty knowledgeable about firearms and doesn't seem to be against them.

The whole class knows I have a 1911 (my professor asked if anyone knew what it was and then asked if I owned one and then told the class a little about its history and military usage) and he likes to use my gun in his criminal law examples.

A few of the other students have shot guns before but one of them is still against them. They can never keep irrational fear out of an argument though.

KWA-S
02-11-2009, 4:04 PM
Im most concerned with the fact that the student community here at UCSB , while on privately owned ground is surrounded on 3 sides by university and the last by ocean. You have to cross university ground to get to Isla Vista unless you own a boat, and I am not sure if the roads that lead into IV are considered part of university property. If they are, that means I won't be able to own guns after I move out of the dorms, as I'd have to bring them across campus (I don't even speed, so I would NEVER think of bringing firearms onto university campus even if locked unloaded in trunk on a road straight in and out of campus) which means that the minute the cops find out I own guns, they could wait for me to drive onto campus, presumably to move them out/take them to the range, a definite eventuality (end of lease, etc), and pull me over and check my car every time until I get caught...:(

DDT
02-11-2009, 4:07 PM
I want to know when the purpose of higher education became:
to develop culturally aware students who have the ability to recognize and deter ignorant perspectives of the world we live in.

Cypren
02-11-2009, 4:10 PM
I want to know when the purpose of higher education became:to develop culturally aware students who have the ability to recognize and deter ignorant perspectives of the world we live in.

When socialists figured out that by taking over the education system they could shape public debate and thought in a way they could never get away with in reasoned argument against people who aren't compelled to nod their heads or be flunked.

Sam
02-11-2009, 4:16 PM
They have a no weapons policy, and can kick you out of school, but that is as far as it goes. I've never seen the signs, though I haven't tried TOO hard to notice them. Where are they located?

Yeah, I agree with the utopia thing, I don't think I have ever heard people worrying about walking late at night. I see girls walking home in groups of 2-3 at 1-2am every weekend and just shake my head, and that isn't counting the middle of campus going towards the library.

http://daviswiki.org/Campus_Border_Signs

I think I remember seeing one at the intersection of Howard way and Russell.

Sam
02-11-2009, 4:17 PM
State universities are public property, not private. They are welcome to have their own administrative rules, but they are not governmental agencies that can issue "local ordinances." What I am not entirely clear on -- and you should consult with a knowledgeable attorney on this -- is whether or not carrying a weapon onto a university in defiance of a clearly posted sign would be considered "trespassing," which it would be if they were private property. If so, there could be very serious legal consequences -- trespassing with a deadly weapon is a felony and will cost you your right to bear arms. The corollary question is whether or not a CCW constitutes "authorization" for the purposes of that sign. For that, you should probably call and ask your campus police office. (Preferably anonymously, so you don't wind up on some kind of watch list.) I wouldn't suggest telling them you're a student; simply tell them that you're a California CCW holder who is going to be visiting the campus and you were wondering if you were authorized to carry pursuant to PC 626.9(l).

I'll call tomorrow and find out.

hotfire
02-11-2009, 7:33 PM
I'm a student as well. At least in one of my classes we talk about guns all the time. My professor seems to be pretty knowledgeable about firearms and doesn't seem to be against them.

The whole class knows I have a 1911 (my professor asked if anyone knew what it was and then asked if I owned one and then told the class a little about its history and military usage) and he likes to use my gun in his criminal law examples.

A few of the other students have shot guns before but one of them is still against them. They can never keep irrational fear out of an argument though.

Wow what class is that?

And I was looking at the school paper paper and looked over the article again, and noticed that on the next page there was a article that the title was something like "police brutality, shoot first ask questions later." Wow this issue really hates guns...can someone say B-I-A-S

rayra
02-11-2009, 9:07 PM
I want to know when the purpose of higher education became:

About 1968 when the Flower Power marxists started attending and never left campus.

Meplat
02-12-2009, 1:00 AM
More like 1964.




About 1968 when the Flower Power marxists started attending and never left campus.