PDA

View Full Version : Bringing in a "named" lower legally?


Vin496
02-10-2009, 12:04 PM
I have a type 56-1 AK that I keep back in Texas, and I have been wondering if it would be possible to bring it out here to California with me?

Are there any options? The only reason I'm even considering it is because I never go shooting my rifles here in California, I just find it too much of a hassle. I have this fancy AR that I have shot once out here in over a year since I got it(the week I got it), yet every time I go out of State, I use it quite a bit. I would like to be able to bring my Ak and a FAL I have out here so when I go to Nevada and Arizona I would be able to take them.

Is there any way to do so without messing them up? Could I just take out the bolts and piston? Or do I have to fully disassemble them? If these are even options.

Fate
02-10-2009, 12:11 PM
Listed = felony upon importation. No ifs, ands or buts. Sorry.

domokun
02-10-2009, 12:35 PM
Listed = felony upon importation. No ifs, ands or buts. Sorry.

+1 on this. You're SOL on this issue. The only legal option is to move out of CA and be closer with your guns... :(

postal16
02-10-2009, 12:42 PM
you can get off-list recievers, and bring on all the other parts (minus the listed reciever) and build around it...in the meantime your friend can use the listed reciever as a paperwieght in Texas

sorensen440
02-10-2009, 12:43 PM
none that I know of for the reciever

joemama
02-10-2009, 12:47 PM
Just going out on a limb here but is it legal to have it re-engraved with different markings to turn it into an oll, or are you only allowed to have engraving done on something like an 80%?

Matt C
02-10-2009, 12:47 PM
Even named if it's named if it's not a semiautomatic firearm it's not banned. A stripped receiver is not a semiautomatic firearm.

Defensible? Yes.

Prosecution likely under certain circumstances? Possible.

12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the
following designated semiautomatic firearms:

Omega13device
02-10-2009, 12:52 PM
As the other posters said, no-go on bringing listed firearms into CA. But there are plenty of off-list AK and FAL options, why not assemble a second, CA-legal collection out here? By doing that you get the extra benefit of not having to drag your rifles back and forth all the time.
Even named if it's named if it's not a semiautomatic firearm it's not banned. A stripped receiver is no a semiautomatic firearm.

Defensible? Yes.

Prosecution likely under certain circumstances? Possible.
Interesting point (maybe someone could get a letter from Allison saying it's legal?) but the OP's issue was about convenience and I'm not sure that having to disassemble and re-assemble his rifles every time he goes in and out of CA solves that problem.

armygunsmith
02-10-2009, 12:53 PM
I had asked something similar in another thread, but it really didn't go anywhere. Maybe someone knows specifically what laws prevents someone from doing this.

thedrickel
02-10-2009, 12:55 PM
I am of the opinion that it is legal to buy a listed LOWER . . . as long as it's not build up into a rifle. The DOJ already knows that they can't list lowers . . . which leads me to believe they know that lowers can't be listed as AW because listed lowers aren't AW unless they are built up to rifles.

Matt C
02-10-2009, 1:19 PM
I am of the opinion that it is legal to buy a listed LOWER . . . as long as it's not build up into a rifle. The DOJ already knows that they can't list lowers . . . which leads me to believe they know that lowers can't be listed as AW because listed lowers aren't AW unless they are built up to rifles.

Arguably you could even build it into a rifle if it was not semiautomatic (IE pump action) but you would be walking a fine line. Also let's not forget the Iggy/Evans letters that would give you another defense.

Librarian
02-10-2009, 1:21 PM
I had asked something similar in another thread, but it really didn't go anywhere. Maybe someone knows specifically what laws prevents someone from doing this.

Lots of people know the specific law on this:Penal Code 12280. (a) (1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or
causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into
the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who
gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as
provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six,
or eight years.
Now you do, too.

You can find the definition for 'assault weapon' here (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12275-12278.html). The 'Kasler List', as well as a repeat of the original AWCA list and the few added weapons, are in California Code of Regulations (http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/), Title 11.

Omega13device
02-10-2009, 1:29 PM
Librarian - BWO's point hinges on the fact that 12276 uses the term "semiautomatic" in the definition of assault weapon. The term "assault weapon" is used throughout the PC so I'd think there's a valid question there about whether there's an opening for stripped receivers since they have no action by definition.

armygunsmith
02-10-2009, 1:47 PM
Librarian- Thanks for the info, but i was specifically referencing law that prevents someone from re-designating a lowers model, thus making not technically On-list. At least that's how i understand the OP's question.

domokun
02-10-2009, 1:57 PM
Librarian- Thanks for the info, but i was specifically referencing law that prevents someone from re-designating a lowers model, thus making not technically On-list. At least that's how i understand the OP's question.

You cannot change the markings on the receiver after it's left the factory. Only the manufacturer of the receiver can do that because they need to update their books to reflect the change.

When you do an 80% build or something similar and manufacture a firearm for personal use from a raw piece of metal (i.e. 0% or 80%, flat receiver), then you are allowed to put any markings you want on it for make, model and serial number. However to my knowledge, this does not apply to receivers that are made by a licensed 07 FFL.

bwiese
02-10-2009, 2:55 PM
I have a type 56-1 AK that I keep back in Texas, and I have been wondering if it would be possible to bring it out here to California with me?

Are there any options? The only reason I'm even considering it is because I never go shooting my rifles here in California, I just find it too much of a hassle. I have this fancy AR that I have shot once out here in over a year since I got it(the week I got it), yet every time I go out of State, I use it quite a bit. I would like to be able to bring my Ak and a FAL I have out here so when I go to Nevada and Arizona I would be able to take them.

Is there any way to do so without messing them up? Could I just take out the bolts and piston? Or do I have to fully disassemble them? If these are even options.

Summarizing:



Normally, removing various 'characteristic features' from any 'named'
AW does not make it CA legal non-AW.



Taking out a few parts just makes it a broken AW, not a non-AW!! [This has
already arisen, slightly differently, in SoCal with an Imbel FAL (?) with all evil
features - aside from other legal problems, dude removed bolt carrier. Dude
got in trouble, too.] If it clearly existed as a manually-cycled nonsemiauto
rifle you might have a defense but in no way recommended conduct.



Possession of listed stripped receivers is likely defendable given wording of law
and footnotes in legislative analysis of 2006's AB2728. Again this should be
discouraged as an activity and only used as a defense.


There are plenty of off-list AKs in CA. Trade your 56 for one of these and use it with a Bullet Button-type device or MonsterMan grip.

Vin496
02-10-2009, 3:19 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys.

I'll just leave it intact where it is. I'm not really interested in getting another OLL style rifle, as I have no use for it in this State.

Librarian
02-10-2009, 3:50 PM
Librarian- Thanks for the info, but i was specifically referencing law that prevents someone from re-designating a lowers model, thus making not technically On-list. At least that's how i understand the OP's question.Ah. That was joemama's question - I didn't associate his followup q with your post.

Librarian
02-10-2009, 3:55 PM
Librarian - BWO's point hinges on the fact that 12276 uses the term "semiautomatic" in the definition of assault weapon. The term "assault weapon" is used throughout the PC so I'd think there's a valid question there about whether there's an opening for stripped receivers since they have no action by definition.I agree. It's untested, though. Might be expensive to establish.

But a parallel situation exists with Feds, and their requirement to list stripped lowers on 4473 as neither rifles nor pistols. Don't know if that might be a useful argument for CA.

Tweak338
02-10-2009, 4:01 PM
Surprised nobody has said this yet..

He said its a Type 56-1
only the Type 56, and 56S are listed

Vin496
02-10-2009, 4:35 PM
Surprised nobody has said this yet..

He said its a Type 56-1
only the Type 56, and 56S are listed

Well I be, maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel. So even if it's a type 56S-1(which I'm thinking it may be, been a long time since I looked), it is not specifically named.

So if it's not 'named" what would I have to do to bring it here.

Remember I have no interest in shooting it here, and no interest in pinning the stock or modifying the gun in any way.

12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:
(a) All of the following specified rifles:
(1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows:
(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.

bohoki
02-10-2009, 5:43 PM
Well I be, maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel. So even if it's a type 56S-1(which I'm thinking it may be, been a long time since I looked), it is not specifically named.

So if it's not 'named" what would I have to do to bring it here.

Remember I have no interest in shooting it here, and no interest in pinning the stock or modifying the gun in any way.

12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:
(a) All of the following specified rifles:
(1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows:
(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.

hmm has abybody seen an ar180b? i think that some are afraid its too close but i guess klashnikov saiga and raa siaga are more different

hmm what if one were to buy the pump action ak and swap trunnions and other parts (other than the rivet holes arent in the same place)

jamesob
02-10-2009, 6:47 PM
hack the receiver into 3 pieces ,then you can bring it in.

PRKArms
02-10-2009, 6:52 PM
hmm has abybody seen an ar180b? i think that some are afraid its too close but i guess klashnikov saiga and raa siaga are more different



We have an Armalite ar180b in our store right now (we have it configured with a 10 round mag and a bullet button)

not on the list = not on the list

AaronHorrocks
02-10-2009, 7:00 PM
You can always apply for an "Assault Weapons Permit".

If you're active duty, and stationed in cali, you might just actually get it too.

Other than that? No hope of doing it "legally"

thedrickel
02-10-2009, 7:37 PM
We have an Armalite ar180b in our store right now (we have it configured with a 10 round mag and a bullet button)

not on the list = not on the list

We have TWO AR180B's in the shop . . . a Bushmaster Model 17S bullpup . . . and a Colt CAR-A3 HBAR Elite :D

tazmanian devil dog
02-10-2009, 8:19 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Vin496
02-10-2009, 8:44 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Do what?

jamesob
02-10-2009, 8:50 PM
i always wondered about the daewoo k1a1, the k1 and k2 are listed.
MANUFACTURER: Daewoo Precision Industries Ltd.
MARKINGS: K1, Max1, or AR110C usually located on the left side of the receiver on the
magazine well.
Comments: Markings may include A1 and other designations, but these additional markings are
not material to identifying the firearm as an assault weapon.

Vin496
02-10-2009, 8:57 PM
i always wondered about the daewoo k1a1, the k1 and k2 are listed.
MANUFACTURER: Daewoo Precision Industries Ltd.
MARKINGS: K1, Max1, or AR110C usually located on the left side of the receiver on the
magazine well.
Comments: Markings may include A1 and other designations, but these additional markings are
not material to identifying the firearm as an assault weapon.

Well according to most, not on the list means NOT ON THE LIST, so the K1a1 should be good as should my 56S-1.

jamesob
02-10-2009, 9:01 PM
Well according to most, not on the list means NOT ON THE LIST, so the K1a1 should be good as should my 56S-1.

i know but on the doj website they mention some might have the a1, so thats throwing me off a little.

Steve O
02-11-2009, 12:59 AM
Even named if it's named if it's not a semiautomatic firearm it's not banned. A stripped receiver is not a semiautomatic firearm.

Defensible? Yes.

Prosecution likely under certain circumstances? Possible.

but isn't a 100% receiver a firearm?

DedEye
02-11-2009, 1:07 AM
but isn't a 100% receiver a firearm?

Yeah, but the AW ban names rifles, pistols and shotguns that are banned, not "firearms and receivers."

Don't ****ing do it.

Steve O
02-11-2009, 1:19 AM
So it is a listed firearm. But not an AW if its striped.
Interesting...

Tweak338
02-11-2009, 5:31 AM
This Rifle isn't specifically named.
That -1, in my opinion makes it a completely different rifle than the ones listed.

akguy999
11-26-2009, 5:49 PM
Did this ever get resolved one way or the other?

Vin496
11-26-2009, 5:54 PM
It still sits at my home in Texas.

ar15barrels
11-26-2009, 6:10 PM
Well according to most, not on the list means NOT ON THE LIST, so the K1a1 should be good as should my 56S-1.

So all you have to do is comply with the 12276.1 provisions and you are good.

Matt C
11-26-2009, 7:02 PM
Did this ever get resolved one way or the other?

Yes:


Don't ****ing do it.

Bill's post has a detailed explanation of why you shouldn't.

bombadillo
11-26-2009, 7:35 PM
How about active military exemptions?

Matt C
11-26-2009, 7:40 PM
How about active military exemptions?

What about them? They apply to active military for pretty much any AW, but you have to go through the DOJ and register etc.

bombadillo
11-26-2009, 7:56 PM
Just curious as a buddy wants to bring his Colt and Olympic into Cali and didn't know a whole lot about military exemptions so wanted to assure one way or the other. He's looking into it through the Marines right now as well as the DOJ.

Matt C
11-26-2009, 10:11 PM
Just curious as a buddy wants to bring his Colt and Olympic into Cali and didn't know a whole lot about military exemptions so wanted to assure one way or the other. He's looking into it through the Marines right now as well as the DOJ.

The Marines don't have anything to do with it really, just have him call the DOJ. It's one area where they are surprisingly informed and helpful.