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Romanski
02-10-2009, 7:45 AM
Hi All,

I'm pretty much new to paper target shooting but have had plenty experience with hunting < 300 yards. I would like to get a 1000 yard target rifle so that I could go to the Sac range and shoot at the 1000 yard line. I'm looking for recommendation for both caliber, manufacture and model of rifle. My budget for the rifle alone is $1,200. Someone suggested a .300 win mag. What would you recommend?

Thanks in advance,
Roman

6172crew
02-10-2009, 7:48 AM
These are not bolt guns but they get out to 1000 and win.


http://www.whiteoakarms.com/

maschronic
02-10-2009, 7:48 AM
10/22 with subsonic round!! :43:

not really sure if a 300 win mag will be able to kill anything at 1000 yards.

thefurball
02-10-2009, 7:49 AM
.308 is good.

Much less shoulder abuse.

lazuris
02-10-2009, 8:01 AM
260, 308, 7mmMag, 300wm, 338LM. .223. There are a bunch of 1000 yd rounds. I'd recomend a 308. Its cheap, easy to shoot and plenty of off the shelf stuff for it. The 300WM beats you up if your shooting it all day. 308 is easy on the shoulder.

You said your budget is 1200 bucks thats low end for a 1000yd rig. I say that because I include glass as part of the cost. At a 1000yds a cheap scope is going to show its weakness. I'd recomend a "Police" version of a rifle as it will come standard with the heavy barrel and better trigger and stock. Check out the remmy 700 police for a top end or a Savage 10fp for a good mid range shooter. There's a ton more but those are common and pretty much the most availible.

As for Glass don't go cheap here. I made that mistake and it cost me more money to buy 2 scopes than it would of to buy the right one the 1st time. Leupold is the best for the price. A Mk4 will run you between 1200-1500. There are better scopes but they cost much more. Look for a scope with target / tactical turrets. This will allow you to make adjustments quickly. Hunting scopes might have great glass but the turrets are designed to set once and then left alone. Also look for scopes who's redical is in the 1st focal plane. This costs more but it allows you to use the ranging ability at all magnifactions. I'd recomend a mil dot scope or my new favorite the TMR redical on the new Mk4's

Hope that helps.

Jicko
02-10-2009, 8:12 AM
http://images43.fotki.com/v1438/photos/2/26966/7133410/IMG_2019-vi.jpg

Not exactly a $1200 rig.... but it kinda get started in there....

For you, I would recommend a Rem700 PSS or 5R plus a Leupold Mark 2 4-12x or 6-18x Mil-dot.
(the 4-12x is probably better for you)
4-12x $630
http://www.swfa.com/pc-8566-971-leupold-4-12x40-mark-2-riflescope.aspx
6-18x $649
http://www.swfa.com/pc-8569-971-leupold-6-18x40-mark-2-riflescope.aspx

squishyhead
02-10-2009, 8:12 AM
I agree with Lazerus. I have a Remington 700P (26" free floated heavy barrel) with a Leupold Mark 4 on top. Not the cheapest purchase I've ever made, but it's very accurate right out of the box (you'll probably want to have the trigger lightened though). I myself have easily gotten 1 MOA groups out to about 700 yards with it. My cousin has no trouble hitting accurately out at 1000, but he's a much better marksman than me. Regardless of which platform you go with, I'd say .308 is my favorite. Even though 1000 yards is just about the max for the round, it is very consistant and won't leave you too bruised at the end of the day!

Romanski
02-10-2009, 8:13 AM
thank you fellas for the info. my hunting rifles have been 7mm mag and 30-06 and I can deal with the recoil. I don't plan on 'hunting' for furry things with this rifle so its duty will be solely for paper/metal targets but I would like to shoot fairly flat.

Thanks lazuris for the recommendations, are you selling? :) I've always used Leupold in Mark2 VX2/3. I know optics will be $$$.

Romanski
02-10-2009, 8:15 AM
http://images43.fotki.com/v1438/photos/2/26966/7133410/IMG_2019-vi.jpg

Not exactly a $1200 rig.... but it kinda get started in there....

pretty, what is it?

glockman19
02-10-2009, 8:15 AM
I'd start with a Remington 700 VLS. It is Factory Bedded, 26" heavy barrel, strong laminated stock. I'd get a Leoupold scope that can accept the BORIS sighting system. Add a Harris Bipod and you have a rifle that can easily reach out to 1,000 yards. Get whatever aftermarket stock you fell best with.

Rifle should cost $1,000-$1,200 Glass another $1,500 BORIS another $1,600, new chassis $750.

Or just buy a Barrett and have a great rifle with warranty. One will set you back a minimum of $5,000 with BORIS. The 416 caliber and 338 are also 1,000 yard calibers to consider.

In CA it's unfortunate we can no longer buy the .50 BMG. Perhaps Nordyke will address this along with the Safe handgun list, and other restrictions.

glockman19
02-10-2009, 8:16 AM
http://images43.fotki.com/v1438/photos/2/26966/7133410/IMG_2019-vi.jpg

Not exactly a $1200 rig.... but it kinda get started in there....

Sweet setup.

I think the OP said that $1,200 was the limit on the rifle alone, not the entire build.

Jicko
02-10-2009, 8:20 AM
$1200 for the rifle... then

Remington 700 Stainless Special 5R Mil-spec .308WIN

Look NO further!

My friend's first rifle, he had never own anything else before. After merely just 100 rounds of break-in on his new 5R. He can consistantly do 1/2MOA or better @ 100yds.

PS. PM me, I've got one coming out onto the market soon.

1911whore
02-10-2009, 8:20 AM
I think you will be doing well with .308 or .300 win mag. Yes the .300 win mag WILL kill at 1000yds, it is still carrying almost 1000ftlbs of energy even way out there. I say shoot them both, the .300 can beat you up after a day of shooting and is pricey to shoot and it isnt cheap to reload for either. If economy and being competative is what you are after on a budget Get a remington 700police in .308, put a 4-16x Leupold on it with a 20 mil base and run handloaded sireea 168gr SMK. You can pull 1/5 inch groups with that set up if you do your part and if you do not have a lemon of a rifle. Plus Remingtons are easy to upgrade.

Jicko
02-10-2009, 8:22 AM
pretty, what is it?

Remington 700 PSS .308WIN
Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x50
Accuracy International AICS 2.0 stock
+ a bunch of accessories

fusionstar
02-10-2009, 8:25 AM
Also look for scopes who's redical is in the 1st focal plane. This costs more but it allows you to use the ranging ability at all magnifactions. I'd recomend a mil dot scope or my new favorite the TMR redical on the new Mk4's

Hope that helps.




um.. the range is known and is set at 1000 yards.. and the FFP scope would cover most if not all the target the target from 1x to 1000x. lol

Romanski
02-10-2009, 8:30 AM
I like the idea of the hotter .300 win mag. I figure I'd out on a weekend once every other month and shoot 40 rounds. The Sac range is over 1 1/2 hours drive for me so it will be an occasional thing (unless I get addicted and decide on competing :) ).

ocabj
02-10-2009, 8:40 AM
If you're even considering the .300 WM, you're better off getting a 6.5x284. The Savage F-Class rifle is an excellent factory production rifle available in 6.5x284.

Far better bullet selection with 6.5mm instead of 30 caliber.

BigBamBoo
02-10-2009, 8:45 AM
............

Linus
02-10-2009, 8:49 AM
$1200 for the rifle... then

Remington 700 Stainless Special 5R Mil-spec .308WIN

Look NO further!


LOOK NO FURTHER!!!!!!:D:thumbsup:

Desertfox
02-10-2009, 8:59 AM
My Savage 12BVSS 308 with Choate super sniper stock, and SWFA SS 20x42 scope I do reach out without any problem 1000 yards, and the whole enchilada was under $1k.

jmf_tracy
02-10-2009, 8:59 AM
go with a rem 700 SPS tactical in .308 ($550) and top it off a falcon menace 4-14x44 scope ($400) using a 20 MOA millet picatinny base ($45) and burris XTR tactical rings($55). there's your starter setup. for more info you should try the precision rifle forum here on calguns and snipershide. com. Sac Valley is a great place to shoot and Vu and the rest of the guys are a great bunch of people always helping people learn how to shoot long range. good luck.

.308 is the right caliber choice for starting off and is the cheapest route to go. this is an expensive hobby. if you are considering 300WM take a look at ammo prices, availibility and barrel life. especially if you to handload and want some 'hot', cool, flat shooting, barrel burning rounds.

don't forget there are a lot of other expenses involved: ammo, sling, bipod, something to carry your gear in, etc.

BigBamBoo
02-10-2009, 9:00 AM
...........

Overkill
02-10-2009, 9:03 AM
Seriously, get a Rem 700 of some configuration - upgrading is easy. The Rem 700 is basically the AR15/1911/Ruger 10/22 of the bolt action world. Accessories galore.

The 5r and 700P are nice in that they come with a nice stock from the factory. I've found, however, that for less coin I can buy a SPS Varmint model, sell the factory stock and buy a stock someone took off of their 5r or 700P and have essentially the same gun as a 700P. Another good option is to search around in the classifieds of the Sniper Hide forum - you can likely land a good deal on a lightly used rifle.

As for glass, the MK4 is nice. When you get to the higher-priced MK4's, however, there are better options such as Nightforce. Buy good glass - it's definately worth the expense.

cgseanp1
02-10-2009, 9:07 AM
What is the range with the 30-06?

ripcurlksm
02-10-2009, 9:09 AM
good thread, what about a 308 tikka anyone?

fusionstar
02-10-2009, 9:13 AM
What is the range with the 30-06?

more than the 308 with the ability to use 200 gr+ bullets.

But its in a long action, dont know if that matters or not.

cgseanp1
02-10-2009, 9:14 AM
more than the 308 with the ability to use 200 gr+ bullets.

But its in a long action, dont know if that matters or not.

What does the long action mean?

Broz
02-10-2009, 9:15 AM
If you can find a Rem 700 Sendero in 300 Win or 7mm mags. Or better yet a donor 700 and have a good stock and aftermarket barrel installed. I would stay above a #4 contour on the barrel and I favor the 300 win. I would recommend 168 Bergers for the 7 and 210 Bergers for the 300. Both will do 1000 yds with ease providing an good bedding job, rail 20 or 40 moa base good rings and a good scope are used. For what you want to do it's hard to beat a Nightforce.

.

Solidsnake87
02-10-2009, 9:42 AM
If you are shooting out to 1000, a custom rifle is the way to go and will be the cheapest route in the end. Buying basic and upgrading as you go is a waste since you truly end up spending more.

Pick up a Lawton 7500 action, and send it to Krieger for a palma barrel installation. Slap it inside a bedded stock of your choice and equip it with a Jewell trigger set to 2-2.5 lbs. DO NOT skimp out on optics or rings. If money is a concern, I hear great things about the Super sniper. If you can afford a Leupy mark 4 or a NF NXS those are preferable. A basic par of Leupy 30 mm weaver rings and a 20 MOA base will get you there. Will run you about $2000-$3000 but any good rig is gonna cost you that much. Bottom line, if you can't afford to get the nice rig then wait until you can--Else you'll be in my boat with a rifle that only groups decently out to 800 yards.

I've personally learned the lesson that while there are many factory rifles that will TAKE you to 1000 yards, few of them are capable of WINNING at 1000 yards.

rksimple
02-10-2009, 9:52 AM
um.. the range is known and is set at 1000 yards.. and the FFP scope would cover most if not all the target the target from 1x to 1000x. lol

What are you trying to say here? Can't follow your sentence.

OP:

If you really want to shoot well to 1k, just get a 700p, put a Bushnell 3200 10x on it and shoot the heck out of it. Put all the money you save into ammo and practice. Spent primers are going to make the difference between hits and misses at 1k. By the time you have a few thousand downrange, you'll know what you want in an upgrade.

rksimple
02-10-2009, 9:58 AM
If you are shooting out to 1000, a custom rifle is the way to go and will be the cheapest route in the end. Buying basic and upgrading as you go is a waste since you truly end up spending more.

Pick up a Lawton 7500 action, and send it to Krieger for a palma barrel installation. Slap it inside a bedded stock of your choice and equip it with a Jewell trigger set to 2-2.5 lbs. DO NOT skimp out on optics or rings. If money is a concern, I hear great things about the Super sniper. If you can afford a Leupy mark 4 or a NF NXS those are preferable. A basic par of Leupy 30 mm weaver rings and a 20 MOA base will get you there. Will run you about $2000-$3000 but any good rig is gonna cost you that much. Bottom line, if you can't afford to get the nice rig then wait until you can--Else you'll be in my boat with a rifle that only groups decently out to 800 yards.

I've personally learned the lesson that while there are many factory rifles that will TAKE you to 1000 yards, few of them are capable of WINNING at 1000 yards.


This is not great advice. The problem is that a newb to LR doesn't know what they want/need in a custom. And there are factory rifles that can win. They just need good shooters behind them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=142730

Nick shoots a 700p with a Bushnell 10x on top. Trying to compensate for lack of ability with fancy equipment is not a good route to go. Don't give this advice like its gospel.

JTROKS
02-10-2009, 10:07 AM
I have a Remmy PSS in 308 with a Pentax Lightseeker 30. I haven't really experimented with the 175 grain SMK, but lots of folks advices the use of them if you want to reach out to 1000 yard mark. The 168 grain SMKs will ring a 12x12 square plate at 600 yards all day long if the wind doesn't keep you guessing. 1000 is a very loooong way for a noob like me.

Jicko
02-10-2009, 10:24 AM
The 5r and 700P are nice in that they come with a nice stock from the factory. I've found, however, that for less coin I can buy a SPS Varmint model, sell the factory stock and buy a stock someone took off of their 5r or 700P and have essentially the same gun as a 700P. Another good option is to search around in the classifieds of the Sniper Hide forum - you can likely land a good deal on a lightly used rifle.

same as the 700P maybe.... NOT the 5R.... the reason why it is called "the 5R" is that it has the UNIQUE 5-radial 1:11.25 rifling..... nothing but the 5R has that in all of the 700 family (except the M24)...

Jicko
02-10-2009, 10:28 AM
This is not great advice. The problem is that a newb to LR doesn't know what they want/need in a custom. And there are factory rifles that can win. They just need good shooters behind them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=142730

Nick shoots a 700p with a Bushnell 10x on top. Trying to compensate for lack of ability with fancy equipment is not a good route to go. Don't give this advice like its gospel.

+1

Even when I am going "full-custom"... I still say.... buy a good factory gun, and learn on it first... actually, I just feel like a "full-custom".... if not, I will send my PSS to have it re-chamber and have the action trued, I bet, it won't be ANY different than the "full-custom" that I am building up now...

Jicko
02-10-2009, 10:29 AM
I have a Remmy PSS in 308 with a Pentax Lightseeker 30. I haven't really experimented with the 175 grain SMK, but lots of folks advices the use of them if you want to reach out to 1000 yard mark. The 168 grain SMKs will ring a 12x12 square plate at 600 yards all day long if the wind doesn't keep you guessing. 1000 is a very loooong way for a noob like me.

For .308WIN to get to 1k yards w/ the bullet still supersonic... you would need 175SMK or 155Scenar...

No way around basic physics.... (and ballistics)

Romanski
02-10-2009, 10:31 AM
Thanks for everyone's reply. Been learning a lot since the time I joined. I'm listening to everyone and will do some reading to see what best works for me ($$$ wise).

I've always been a long range shooting addict since I can remember, mostly with archery.

Romanski
02-10-2009, 10:33 AM
BTW, would I need to learn to do my own reloads or can I buy match, factory ammo?

JTROKS
02-10-2009, 10:39 AM
BTW, would I need to learn to do my own reloads or can I buy match, factory ammo?


Although the Federal GM Match and Black Hills Match ammo have been very accurate when shot through my PSS I still rely on my home brewed 168 SMKs using necked sized Federal brass, BR primers and Varget. I tend to get more velocity and accuracy with the necked down cases with a charge weight over the maximum adviced from Hodgdon. The bullets are seated out as long as the rifling lead and magazine length would allow. On a stock Remmy you'll reach the magazine COAL before you'll even touch the lands with the bullet. More velocity is a plus when you're going for long range.

rksimple
02-10-2009, 10:44 AM
BTW, would I need to learn to do my own reloads or can I buy match, factory ammo?

You can get match ammo that works quite well. If you're independently wealthy, that would be OK as its expensive. Reloading will allow you to tune ammo for the rifle, but more importantly, allow you to shoot more on a given budget. At 1k, practice and experience will be the deciding factor.

jmf_tracy
02-10-2009, 10:46 AM
BTW, would I need to learn to do my own reloads or can I buy match, factory ammo?

your choice. most people who are really into it handload. some shoot FGMM or Blackhills, but that is expensive. i am cheap and lazy so i shoot M118LR and it works good enough for me. it is not as good as FGMM, BH or someones handloads, but it works for me. the only place that i see to get this ammo is HSM sold through snipercental.com, by the way.

nikonuser
02-10-2009, 10:59 AM
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/
Good article for long range shooting info:

Jicko
02-10-2009, 11:06 AM
your choice. most people who are really into it handload. some shoot FGMM or Blackhills, but that is expensive. i am cheap and lazy so i shoot M118LR and it works good enough for me. it is not as good as FGMM, BH or someones handloads, but it works for me. the only place that i see to get this ammo is HSM sold through snipercental.com, by the way.

HSM .308 175 is good, those are similar to M118LR. But those are NOT real M118LR. Real M118LR is almost impossible to get.

jmf_tracy
02-10-2009, 11:12 AM
HSM .308 175 is good, those are similar to M118LR. But those are NOT real M118LR. Real M118LR is almost impossible to get.

jicko - yes, of course i know it is not real M118LR, but HSM's copy. and yeah real M118LR is pretty impossible to get. i did manage to pick up some XMM118LR (real M118LR rejects, training ammo.) awhile back though and it treats me nice.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:15 AM
I like the idea of the hotter .300 win mag. I figure I'd out on a weekend once every other month and shoot 40 rounds. The Sac range is over 1 1/2 hours drive for me so it will be an occasional thing (unless I get addicted and decide on competing :) ).

Find someone with a 300 winmag and go shoot 60 rounds in 3 hours.
THEN come back and tell us if you still like that idea.

On paper, 300 win mag is great.
In reality, everyone wants a 243 or 260 for 1000yd shooting.
You are not going to fit within your $1200 budget with a custom 243 or 260 that will shoot the Dtacs or Scenars though.

That bumps you back to a 308.

Do you already reload?
If not, consider that part of the cost or precision rifle shooting.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:17 AM
I like the idea of the hotter .300 win mag. I figure I'd out on a weekend once every other month and shoot 40 rounds. The Sac range is over 1 1/2 hours drive for me so it will be an occasional thing (unless I get addicted and decide on competing :) ).

Sac Valley is a 6+ hour drive for me.
I still make it out there every few months.

Swiss
02-10-2009, 11:20 AM
I noticed that no one asked if the OP planned to shoot without optics. Is this not done anymore? I've never shot at 1000 yd but I do enjoy shooting at 300m with my K31 with the W+F diopter sights.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:22 AM
Scope....as much as you can afford...and more magnification is better. I use a 8.5-25X on my TRG. And stay away from a FFP...as stated above....in a low(er) power scope the cross hairs will cover the target at 1K.

More scope is not necessarily better because the rifle will probably get used at a variety of ranges.
8.5x minimum magnification will kill you if you are shooting multiple targets at multiple distances and need to move between them.
Resolution is much more important than magnification.

The most popular scope on precision rifles is the Nightforce 3.5-15x50 with either an NP-R1 reticle and MOA knobs, or a MLR reticle and MIL knobs.
15x is more than enough to shoot at 1000yds.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:23 AM
good thread, what about a 308 tikka anyone?

Good rifle if you want it just like it comes, but minimal aftermarket support if you ever want to change it.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:24 AM
But its in a long action, dont know if that matters or not.

The bolt might touch your nose if you don't have a lot of length-of-pull (long arms).

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:28 AM
I've personally learned the lesson that while there are many factory rifles that will TAKE you to 1000 yards, few of them are capable of WINNING at 1000 yards.

The first thing you need to know is where your target is. :thumbsup:

Let's not forget the wonderful time clark had shooting on station 26 where there was no target, while his target is on station 16. ;)

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:30 AM
For .308WIN to get to 1k yards w/ the bullet still supersonic... you would need 175SMK or 155Scenar...

Or a 155 SMK, or any other of the many flavors of 155gr match bullets. ;)

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:31 AM
BTW, would I need to learn to do my own reloads or can I buy match, factory ammo?

Are you averse to spending $1.50+ a round?
Match reloads developed for your specific gun will be well under $0.50 a round.

You decide.

Jicko
02-10-2009, 11:38 AM
Or a 155 SMK, or any other of the many flavors of 155gr match bullets. ;)

Ok.... just not the 168... ;) I tends to generalize in hope of making it easier to understand and make a simple decision...

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:38 AM
What does the long action mean?

There are "short actions" designed to accept cartridges up to about 2.8" long and then "long actions" that will take cartridges up to about 3.3" long.
The length of the action, magazine and bolt throw are all longer to accomodate the longer cartridges.

Shorter actions are more rigid and therefore more desireable on target guns.

g17owner
02-10-2009, 11:49 AM
10/22 with subsonic round!! :43:

not really sure if a 300 win mag will be able to kill anything at 1000 yards.

You are kidding right?

rc50cal
02-10-2009, 11:53 AM
I am not in to long range shooting yet because I live so far from any range that can accommodate it. That being said, I think a wise course of action would be to buy a used Rem 700 or equivalent and see if it is a hobby that can hold your interest. No use spending $2500+ on a rig that ends up in a box under the bed or decorating your safe. If you are diligent in your search and get a good deal then you should be able to recoup your investment if/when you decide to upgrade.

fusionstar
02-10-2009, 11:57 AM
What are you trying to say here? Can't follow your sentence.

OP:

If you really want to shoot well to 1k, just get a 700p, put a Bushnell 3200 10x on it and shoot the heck out of it. Put all the money you save into ammo and practice. Spent primers are going to make the difference between hits and misses at 1k. By the time you have a few thousand downrange, you'll know what you want in an upgrade.


FFP, It changes size in correlation to the zoom, FFP is only used to get accurate distance calculations which you dont need in a 1000 yard gun.. because you'll be on a 1000 yard range.. So if your reticle covered the target at 1x with a FFP scope, it will also cover it at 10x,20x,50x,10000000x.
Not so in a regular set up scope, your sight picture will get bigger but the reticle will stay the same size as you increase magnification.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 12:15 PM
FFP, It changes size in correlation to the zoom, FFP is only used to get accurate distance calculations which you dont need in a 1000 yard gun.. because you'll be on a 1000 yard range.. So if your reticle covered the target at 1x with a FFP scope, it will also cover it at 10x,20x,50x,10000000x.
Not so in a regular set up scope, your sight picture will get bigger but the reticle will stay the same size as you increase magnification.

1000yd targets are sufficiently large that the size of the reticle is not a problem.
The ability to use a FFP reticle accurately for holds at any power far exceeds the issue of the reticle growing larger with magnification.

Let's say you have a 22 power SFP nightforce scope and you are shooting on a 110 degree day in august.
You will have so much mirage that you will be forced to power down.
Now you can no longer use your reticle accurately for wind holds.
FFP wins, even on known-distance ranges.

armandolo
02-10-2009, 12:23 PM
What is the range with the 30-06?

I was kinda wondering the same thing. Why not the 30-06?

fusionstar
02-10-2009, 12:30 PM
1000yd targets are sufficiently large that the size of the reticle is not a problem.
The ability to use a FFP reticle accurately for holds at any power far exceeds the issue of the reticle growing larger with magnification.

Let's say you have a 22 power SFP nightforce scope and you are shooting on a 110 degree day in august.
You will have so much mirage that you will be forced to power down.
Now you can no longer use your reticle accurately for wind holds.
FFP wins, even on known-distance ranges.



ahh yes.. mirage.. forgot to calculate that in.. I was so focused on why anyone would need to estimate a set and known range.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 12:34 PM
I was kinda wondering the same thing. Why not the 30-06?

It's a good cartridge if you reload.
If you don't reload, the selection of ammo with match grade bullets is quite lacking.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 12:35 PM
ahh yes.. mirage.. forgot to calculate that in.. I was so focused on why anyone would need to estimate a set and known range.

calibrated reticles are not just for range estimation.
They are used for holding-off for the wind more than they are used for ranging.

Cypriss32
02-10-2009, 12:48 PM
IF I was you id consider going and seeing if you enjoy shooting like this....

Then, see what your budget allows and possibly save more money to get a better SCOPE.... Optics are VERY important, I say go with NF. I see alot of talk about FFP this and that, it has its palce MAJOR. BUT if you are shooting paper targets stay 2 focal. NightForce gives the customer the best bang for the buck. Decided if you are a MOA/MOA man or MIL/MIL man and keep it simple, use one type only.

Rifle wise, alot of people have different opinions, most run there programs thats tells them what they want to hear. 243 CHEAP to shoot, 260 looks good 6.5mm has some good bullets, 7mm has the BEST BC of anything managable to shoot and kicks *** painly, 30cal the most match bullets and easiest to load.

Goto Sniperhide.com and check it out... Dont forget another good sight 6mmbr.com

rksimple
02-10-2009, 1:11 PM
FFP, It changes size in correlation to the zoom, FFP is only used to get accurate distance calculations which you dont need in a 1000 yard gun.. because you'll be on a 1000 yard range.. So if your reticle covered the target at 1x with a FFP scope, it will also cover it at 10x,20x,50x,10000000x.
Not so in a regular set up scope, your sight picture will get bigger but the reticle will stay the same size as you increase magnification.

I'm well aware of what FFP is, just wanted to make sure what you meant before I said your original statement was completely false. Randall already got into it a little. But even with the thickest of ffp reticles, they still only cover maybe .5 MOA. That is in NO way going to obscure much of the target...even a B27 at 1k. Like Randall said, FFP wins, and does so over the widest range of circumstances.

FWIW, most FFP reticles are .3 MOA or under.

J_Rock
02-10-2009, 1:45 PM
I would say no to the .300 winmag. Sure you get less drop and drift but barrel life is a major issue. You only get around 3500 rounds of accurate life whereas with a .308 3500 rnds is just getting started :D

510dat
02-10-2009, 1:47 PM
I was kinda wondering the same thing. Why not the 30-06?

I'm also curious about .270 Winchester, .280 Remington and 7mm Rem Mag, which I haven't heard much commentary about.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 2:16 PM
I'm also curious about .270 Winchester, .280 Remington and 7mm Rem Mag, which I haven't heard much commentary about.

For someone that handloads, all are viable long range cartridges.
For someone shooting factory ammo, there is a significant lack of target loads available for those.

rksimple
02-10-2009, 2:22 PM
I'm also curious about .270 Winchester, .280 Remington and 7mm Rem Mag, which I haven't heard much commentary about.

It all depends if there's something breathing on the receiving end.

The 270 has a horrible match bullet selection. Its not a contender at all.

The 280 is pretty good as you can use those nice, slippery 7mm bullets. The 280 lacks a little boiler room capacity to really push the 180's, however. Thats not an issue for the 7mmRM. Poor barrel life is the downside to these calibers (when compared to the 308).

If nothing is going to die when you pull the trigger, the same or better performance can be had with the 243 and 260 in a smaller, more efficient package.

Romanski
02-10-2009, 2:50 PM
Wow.... lots of info to go over, thanks guys. I think I'll take my most accurate rifle (CZ550 America 30-06) and try it out at 1k yards. I don't have the best optics for the job but hopefully I can at least hit paper a couple of times and see how I like it.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 3:34 PM
I think I'll take my most accurate rifle (CZ550 America 30-06) and try it out at 1k yards.

Depending on barrel length and weather conditions, this may get you to 1000yds:
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=148

Otherwise, look for the Hornady 168gr Amax load that's intended for the M1 Garand.

lazuris
02-10-2009, 3:42 PM
ahh yes.. mirage.. forgot to calculate that in.. I was so focused on why anyone would need to estimate a set and known range.

No you were too busy mouthing off when someone was trying to help another person.

crowbar
02-10-2009, 4:49 PM
March Madness at Sac Valley is nearly upon us. Come out and observe some 1,000 yard, Palma, and Fullbore competition. You can see a variety of sling supported and F-Class rigs in action.

http://www.sacvalley.org/SacVal/Upcoming_Events.html

lasereye
02-10-2009, 5:32 PM
jicko - yes, of course i know it is not real M118LR, but HSM's copy. and yeah real M118LR is pretty impossible to get. i did manage to pick up some XMM118LR (real M118LR rejects, training ammo.) awhile back though and it treats me nice.

How about these XM118s at www.palmettostatearmory.com/308-762-ammo.php.Any good? Waste of time? Alot of money.

r08ert209cali
02-10-2009, 5:32 PM
serbu 510 dtc and a nightforce scope.
http://serbu.com/top/bfg50.php
good to a mile if you can shoot it that well.

Pthfndr
02-10-2009, 6:19 PM
I'm well aware of what FFP is, ..................But even with the thickest of ffp reticles, they still only cover maybe .5 MOA. That is in NO way going to obscure much of the target...even a B27 at 1k.

Like we should listen to YOU as if you know what you're talking about?

Oh, wait, that's right, YOU DO KNOW what you're talking about. :thumbsup: You shoot out to 1000 yards on a little bitty B27 3 moa x 2 moa target on a regular basis with lots of SUCCESS. And with a humble .308.

Unlike all but a few of the other posters here ;)

Pthfndr
02-10-2009, 6:24 PM
I would like to get a 1000 yard target rifle so that I could go to the Sac range and shoot at the 1000 yard line.
Roman

You might already be aware of this, but you can't just show up at the Sac Valley range and shoot on the 1K range. You'll have to either shoot in a match, or go out with people who are checked out to use the 1K range.

Once you have a rifle you want to try out there, ask in the California Precision Rifle Club forum how go about getting on the range. There's a few of us who post here that are cleared to use the range on our own. :D

Before you buy anything, I would do as the above poster mentioned and come out during March Madness and check out the F Class rigs. Both the open and F T/R (tactical/target) rifles. Or come out on the 1st Sunday of any month and observe our monthly Long Range Tactical rifle match. Check out the equipment and ask questions, then decide what to buy.

rksimple
02-10-2009, 6:43 PM
Thanks Rob. :D

Hope to see you guys up there again soon.

Ahhnother8
02-10-2009, 6:53 PM
I don't know about the others, but I would be much more inclined to take advice from the tactical couch commando's rather than those who have actually shot at the 1000 yard line. And yes, I did sleep at the Holiday Inn last night. :thumbsup:

Re: Sac, come on out on any Tuesday and shoot with us at the 1000. We shoot a Palma (800, 900, 1000 yards) almost every Tuesday. Today we had 9 Palma shooters and 2 F-class guys. We also fired a couple shots at 600, to get good zeros for Sunday's 600 yard match.

Romanski
02-10-2009, 7:24 PM
Yep, I called the Sac club today and got info about joining and getting clearance for the 1k range. I will get out there to observe the guys shooting LR and ask questions :) (hopefully no one will mind). Thanks again!

Pthfndr
02-10-2009, 7:29 PM
I will get out there to observe the guys shooting LR and ask questions :) (hopefully no one will mind). Thanks again!

Observers are always welcome.

lawrence29
02-10-2009, 8:33 PM
I used to shoot Rem 7mm Mag to 1K, too loud. Pss Rem 308 got stolen, now I go FN SPR 308 to 600ms w/Falcon scope, very reliable. I think the Mosins can hit plates at 1K..

skkeeter
02-10-2009, 9:51 PM
Another thing to consider after you buy a rifle is keep a very detailed sniper log. You can buy a logbook, or make your own. Write down every bit of info for every shot at different distances. Range, elevation, wind, temperature, angle, type of bullet and load, and how many clicks on your scope, exc... Zero your rifle at 100 yards and you can always refer to your log. I started doing this a few months ago, and it has helped tremendously. Now when I shoot at a new distance, or new location, I don't have to waste ammo to see where I'm hitting. If you plan on being accurate, reloading has helped me a lot. Factory match ammo will work, but it will be spendy. Practice makes perfect, and with a log it eliminated lots of the guess work. I shoot a AR-30 in .338 lapua magnum. The rifle is stock but i load my own rounds. 1000 yards is pretty easy with this gun. Have fun shooting.

bowfin
02-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Look at a Savage in 6.5-.284 if you don't mind the oddball caliber, otherwise I would say the same rifle in a .300 Winchester Magnum.

A .308 would be okay until the wind starts blowing, since you are shooting at a known distance.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 10:28 PM
Hope to see you guys up there again soon.

How about April?
Wes says we have to shoot the 22 match in March, but then we can go to Sac in April...

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 10:30 PM
Observers are always welcome.

Do you have JAFO hats to hand out?

Pthfndr
02-10-2009, 11:14 PM
Do you have JAFO hats to hand out?

I'm afraid to ask what that stands for.

draconianruler
02-10-2009, 11:31 PM
If you want a short action, you can go with the .300wsm (winchester short magnum) and still get .300win mag performance. In theory, shorter fatter cases are more accurate and have less felt recoil.

Have you thought about getting a 50DTC AR upper? You can get one for under 2K if you already have an AR lower.

draconianruler
02-10-2009, 11:33 PM
Forgot to add, you can pickup a SPS varmit for $600. It has a 26" barrel and are pretty accurate. You can use the money you saved to get good ammo and glass or a new stock.

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:49 PM
I'm afraid to ask what that stands for.

Did you see the 80's movie "Blue Thunder"?

Just
Another
Friggin (you get the idea)
Observer

ar15barrels
02-10-2009, 11:51 PM
Have you thought about getting a 50DTC AR upper?

50's are not allowed at Sac Valley. ;)

Army GI
02-11-2009, 7:31 AM
If you get 300 Win Mag, you should probably get it in a heavy barrel.

Although if you reload, you actually have a lot of versatility available to you. You can load it with starting loads that nearly duplicate a normal 30-06 load. For short range practice you could load cast lead and get ballistics akin to a really light 30-30.

Then if you really want to ramp it up, you could load up to 300 Win Mag levels.

Romanski
02-11-2009, 8:48 AM
sounds like i better start researching how to load my own ammo. how long did it take YOU to learn how to load your own rounds? can I blow up my rifle if I mess up on loading?

Army GI
02-11-2009, 9:01 AM
sounds like i better start researching how to load my own ammo.

Most definitely. ANY rifle cartridge that is not available as surplus ammo (such as 7.62x54R) is more than worth reloading.

how long did it take YOU to learn how to load your own rounds?

It didn't take very long at all. If you approach it the same way as you approach learning how to do anything mechanical (like when you learned how to replace the brakes on your car) it's actually quite easy. I started off with a single stage press and once I got the hang of it sold it off to buy a good progressive press.

can I blow up my rifle if I mess up on loading?

Yes! Reloading rifle cartridges improperly can be very dangerous. But catastrophic blow ups only usually happen if you are grossly negligent. Just follow directions, don't take any short cuts, and you will be fine.

Come on down over to the Ammo and Reloading forum. ar15Barrels, mecam, Chief, and a whole bunch of other people will be more than happy to help you with any reloading questions you might have.

Romanski
02-11-2009, 9:34 AM
Thanks Army GI - I saw that forum and plan on going there next. I may get a deal from a buddy of mine for loading equipment although I don't know if he has the right dies. Awesome forum here... 10 pages of info in less than 2 days!

Vu 308
02-11-2009, 9:40 AM
I don't know about the others, but I would be much more inclined to take advice from the tactical couch commando's rather than those who have actually shot at the 1000 yard line. And yes, I did sleep at the Holiday Inn last night. :thumbsup:

Re: Sac, come on out on any Tuesday and shoot with us at the 1000. We shoot a Palma (800, 900, 1000 yards) almost every Tuesday. Today we had 9 Palma shooters and 2 F-class guys. We also fired a couple shots at 600, to get good zeros for Sunday's 600 yard match.


I actually like taking advice from the resident Mall Ninjas myself.

You know the ones that think bigger is better. 50s 408s blah blah blah...mile long shot.

Same guys that call the wind like Marky Mark in the movie Shooter...3 Mil hold for everything. LOL

JTROKS
02-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Firing a PSS in 308 all day long will wear me out, I can't imagine firing a 300 Win mag for the same duration. I think the 240 grain VLDs pushed at max speed will difinitely hurt.

Jonathan Doe
02-11-2009, 10:36 AM
I shot a Texas Brigade Armory M40A1 in 308 Winchester which provided an excellent accracy at 1,000 yards.

ar15barrels
02-11-2009, 12:14 PM
Firing a PSS in 308 all day long will wear me out

Two upgrades that make all the difference:
LimbSaver recoil pad.
Muzzle Brake.

ar15barrels
02-11-2009, 12:15 PM
I actually like taking advice from the resident Mall Ninjas myself.

You know the ones that think bigger is better. 50s 408s blah blah blah...mile long shot.

Same guys that call the wind like Marky Mark in the movie Shooter...3 Mil hold for everything. LOL

Mall ninjas don't know about wind because there's no wind inside the mall. ;)

Cru Jones
02-11-2009, 1:59 PM
I'm just curious... has no one mentioned the Kimber 84M LPT in .308 because it's not a good rifle or just because the Remington 700P is the standard in this class? I'll admit I don't know much about these types of rifles but I had read a few articles that said that Kimber was decent. Just wondering...

Black Majik
02-11-2009, 2:01 PM
Mall ninjas don't know about wind because there's no wind inside the mall. ;)

That is very sig worthy right there.

ar15barrels
02-11-2009, 3:16 PM
I'm just curious... has no one mentioned the Kimber 84M LPT in .308 because it's not a good rifle or just because the Remington 700P is the standard in this class? I'll admit I don't know much about these types of rifles but I had read a few articles that said that Kimber was decent. Just wondering...

The 700 is the standard because it has the most aftermarket support.
You have more options for the 700 action than all other actions combined.

Timberwolf got one of those Kimber 84's and it would not shoot groups to match it's pricetag.
That's not to say it wasn't just a lemon among a bunch of otherwise winners, but who wants to be burned twice to find out if the first one was a fluke?

Don't base your purchases on articles you read.
Go to ranges and find real world users.
Those articles are basically paid advertisements published under the auspices of "reviews".
How often do you read a bad review?

Vu 308
02-11-2009, 4:12 PM
Amen brother...proof is on the paper.

You never EVER see an article saying this thing is a POS and will not shoot for sh*t.

Look for what the guys running their guns hard in competition use and go from there. Keyboard commandos on the 100yard bench need not apply. A 500 SPS will do well at 100 off a bench but what happens when you run it hard for 200 rounds over 2 days of comps.

Vu

NRAhighpowershooter
02-11-2009, 4:23 PM
hhhmm...I is tempted to get me a 20moa mount for my 700VS :D I have the loads and zeroes out to 600yds :D

ar15barrels
02-11-2009, 4:27 PM
hhhmm...I is tempted to get me a 20moa mount for my 700VS :D I have the loads and zeroes out to 600yds :D

http://www.humor911.no/pub/articles/pictures/1311.jpg

JTROKS
02-12-2009, 8:13 AM
Mall ninjas don't know about wind because there's no wind inside the mall.

The air conditioning may affect it, but does the mall have enough range to make it a factor?

Is a 30mm scope tube being considered? Will help alot to get to 1000 yard.

Wildman
02-13-2009, 10:41 PM
If you are a good shot and reload your ammo or buy the 172gr round 308 is good. If you are not that great of a shooter, like myself, then 300 win mag. I use that in comp and the speed and flatter trajectory helps me alot. If you have money then 338 lapua or those other expensive calibers and rifles. Good luck. Cheers.

Just for info I use a stock Remington Sendero 300 win mag, action has been bedded with a 8X26 lupi and it works for me a 1000. If the gods are with me and the wind is cool I can hit a man size siloute.

ar15barrels
02-13-2009, 11:38 PM
If the gods are with me and the wind is cool I can hit a man size siloute.

Don't fear the wind.
Consistent wind is easy to shoot in.
Switching wind is a pain.
You really have to keep a watch on it and adjust as necessary.
With a little practice reading wind, every shot will be on a man sized silhouette at 1000yds.

TheBundo
02-14-2009, 12:16 AM
I used to shoot Rem 7mm Mag to 1K, too loud. Pss Rem 308 got stolen, now I go FN SPR 308 to 600ms w/Falcon scope, very reliable. I think the Mosins can hit plates at 1K..

Yep, on the Mosin. A 91/30 with a scope for a fraction of the $1200, and PLENTY of really cheap ammo. A Russian sniper picked off a German sniper at 1400 plus yards with one.

bowfin
02-14-2009, 6:05 AM
Mall ninjas don't know about wind because there's no wind inside the mall.

I get a lot of grief for taking either a 7mm Remington Magnum or a .300 Winchester Magnum antelope hunting in the Western part of Nebraska.

"You don't NEED a rifle that big for an antelope."...No, I don't. I need a rifle like that for the winds that blew down my tent the last two times I went. Judging distance is a piece of cake when compared to doping a gusty wind of 15-30 mph. Bigger, faster bullets aren't a panacea for wind doping, but if they can cut the margin of error in half, it certainly is appreciated.