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Bruce
02-09-2009, 6:42 AM
So I look at the CalNRA site to see what legislation has been introduced so far and don't see anything other than the proposed ammo ban by DFG. While a lack of bills to oppose is good, I have to wonder why there are no bills to support. Why no legislation to repeal or at least modify SB15 and SB23? Why no "Shall Issue" CCW reform? I thought there were supposed to be pro-gun Democrats. Where are "friendly" Republicans?
Inquiring minds want to know.

bulgron
02-09-2009, 6:49 AM
So I look at the CalNRA site to see what legislation has been introduced so far and don't see anything other than the proposed ammo ban by DFG. While a lack of bills to oppose is good, I have to wonder why there are no bills to support. Why no legislation to repeal or at least modify SB15 and SB23? Why no "Shall Issue" CCW reform? I thought there were supposed to be pro-gun Democrats. Where are "friendly" Republicans?
Inquiring minds want to know.

The state is in a budget melt-down and is currently billions of dollars in the red. Sacramento is basically consumed with budget negotiations. As a result, I don't expect to see ANY legislation coming out of that town until they figure out how to do their most basic job.

Beyond that, I know that our guys in Sacramento are having trouble finding politicians willing to carry our bills for us. It isn't that our guys don't have bills they want to introduce, it's that the politicians in Sacramento aren't willing to introduce those bills, even if the politicians are nominally pro-gun.

It's a tough town, and it isn't going to get any better until we figure out how to convince the people of California that being pro-gun won't result in little Timmy and Sally being gunned down in a hail of bullets.

Bruce
02-09-2009, 8:31 AM
The state is in a budget melt-down and is currently billions of dollars in the red. Sacramento is basically consumed with budget negotiations. As a result, I don't expect to see ANY legislation coming out of that town until they figure out how to do their most basic job.

Beyond that, I know that our guys in Sacramento are having trouble finding politicians willing to carry our bills for us. It isn't that our guys don't have bills they want to introduce, it's that the politicians in Sacramento aren't willing to introduce those bills, even if the politicians are nominally pro-gun.

It's a tough town, and it isn't going to get any better until we figure out how to convince the people of California that being pro-gun won't result in little Timmy and Sally being gunned down in a hail of bullets.

In other words, "Same ole ****, different year."

bwiese
02-09-2009, 9:02 AM
Bills may well not be introduced early on. Some *useful, passable* pro-gun bills have already been written.

Bills can even be introduced later into the year, and other 'spot' bills can be "gutted & amended" at the last minute (i.e, in June-ish time frame).

It is unwise to expect pure "Repeal X and allow Y" bills to pass given legislative makeup.

Many other things are in orbit until incorporation.

CCWFacts
02-09-2009, 9:06 AM
My feeling (as a total outsider to this) is that we might make some very small incremental gains in the leg., but, unfortunately for us, our only avenue for big gains will be through the courts. It's like a Alabama in the 1950s. The leg. wasn't going to end segregation, ever.

motorhead
02-09-2009, 9:16 AM
and you already saw the up side. no new gun laws coming down the chute yet. the sky isn't falling after all.

H Paul Payne
02-09-2009, 9:46 AM
So I look at the CalNRA site to see what legislation has been introduced so far and don't see anything other than the proposed ammo ban by DFG. While a lack of bills to oppose is good, I have to wonder why there are no bills to support. Why no legislation to repeal or at least modify SB15 and SB23? Why no "Shall Issue" CCW reform? I thought there were supposed to be pro-gun Democrats. Where are "friendly" Republicans?
Inquiring minds want to know.

These things are not being discussed in public, at this time.

Both good & bad bills will be listed when action is necessary.

Thank you for your inquiry. If you would like to be automatically updated on legislative activity, please do not hesitate to join the NRA and your local NRA Members' Council.

For further information, please do not hesitate to call me on the number listed below.

Paul

yellowfin
02-09-2009, 11:12 AM
It's like a Alabama in the 1950s. The leg. wasn't going to end segregation, ever. Hey, find a different state to pick on :mad:

7x57
02-09-2009, 11:59 AM
These things are not being discussed in public, at this time.

Both good & bad bills will be listed when action is necessary.


Which means, for the hard of thinking, that Somebody is thinking about opportunities and that those opportunities would evaporate if they were discussed in public. Some people would call that good strategy. Of course, the anti-NRA whiners call it "being abandoned by the NRA."

Soldiers never know what's being discussed at Command. Well, not in successful armies anyway.

7x57

HunterJim
02-09-2009, 3:38 PM
I admit to not understanding why NRA & CRPA are not leading an initiative campaign to direct shall issue CCW.

That does not depend on the Legislature in Sacramento.

I worked on Prop 15 once upon a time.

jim

hoffmang
02-09-2009, 3:44 PM
1. An initiative is very expensive and not guaranteed to work. Would you want to be where the "no on 8" crowd is right now?

2.Rumors I hear about legislation on the pro-gun side are such that I think a lot of folks should take a wait and see for now. Expect to be pleasantly surprised.

-Gene

bwiese
02-09-2009, 3:47 PM
I admit to not understanding why NRA & CRPA are not leading an initiative campaign to direct shall issue CCW.

That does not depend on the Legislature in Sacramento.

I worked on Prop 15 once upon a time.

The political environment is a bit different since Prop 15. Initiative campaigns in CA these days are usually not "of the people" and are for big-money insurance, gambling or labor interests.

It can easily take $75Mil if not $100Mil to even have a chance of winning.

Furthermore, most initiative campaigns need paid professional signature gatherers to have a fair chance of getting on the ballot, which is fairly expensive to begin with. The risks of losing could compromise other political activities, and the counties where CCW issuance is working and fairly functional.

Fortunately, post-Heller / post-Nordyke and with some issues involving UOC vs CCW nonissuance I believe we can get to - if not perfect - at least rational CCW issuance.

7x57
02-09-2009, 4:11 PM
2.Rumors I hear about legislation on the pro-gun side are such that I think a lot of folks should take a wait and see for now. Expect to be pleasantly surprised.


The problem is that people are waiting in internet time, and the wait for a post-Nordyke strategy appears to be insufferable. Well, that coupled with an apparently invincible belief that "doing something" is better than doing nothing, when of course the lawyers are unanimous that doing the wrong thing is much, much worse than doing nothing. Do people think that it was a mistake to invade Normandy in 1944 instead of 1942?

What we need is to convince people to use the wait wisely, to take as many people shooting as possible and laying in a war chest for the time when it can be applied most effectively.

7x57

Ford8N
02-09-2009, 4:18 PM
Which means, for the hard of thinking, that Somebody is thinking about opportunities and that those opportunities would evaporate if they were discussed in public. Some people would call that good strategy. Of course, the anti-NRA whiners call it "being abandoned by the NRA."

Soldiers never know what's being discussed at Command. Well, not in successful armies anyway.

7x57

I agree, sometimes you don't show your hand until the time is right. I understand the silence and I am mature enough to wait.

Cambo5150
02-09-2009, 4:21 PM
1. An initiative is very expensive and not guaranteed to work. Would you want to be where the "no on 8" crowd is right now?

2.Rumors I hear about legislation on the pro-gun side are such that I think a lot of folks should take a wait and see for now. Expect to be pleasantly surprised.

-Gene

You know something that we don't know.....don't you?

H Paul Payne
02-09-2009, 4:48 PM
Which means, for the hard of thinking, that Somebody is thinking about opportunities and that those opportunities would evaporate if they were discussed in public. Some people would call that good strategy. Of course, the anti-NRA whiners call it "being abandoned by the NRA."

Soldiers never know what's being discussed at Command. Well, not in successful armies anyway.

7x57
What we need is to convince people to use the wait wisely, to take as many people shooting as possible and laying in a war chest for the time when it can be applied most effectively.

7x57

7x57, It seems like YOU took the time to PARTICIPATE in the meetings & discussions with the leaders in the pro-Second Amendment community in California. See: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137592

Yep, I remember your participation and ideas quite well. I also remember that we had PARTICIPATION from several groups and individuals from across California - including The Calguns Foundation, OCCCW, CRPA, and others.

It always amazes me when, after I've asked for public input, there are those few who will criticize us, even when they didn't step-up with their ideas when asked.

Remember, I stated -- "Your input is important to us and we'd like to have the benefit of your thoughts and feelings in a two-way conversation." and "But please be aware that I am quite serious when I say that I would appreciate your input. Many people say, "The NRA should do ........." Now, is your chance to give us your thoughts and ideas."

I guess complainers will always be with us. But I will continue to ask for input, even from the complainers who (for whatever reason) don't participate with the rest of us. Eventually, maybe some of them will come-around to the idea of teamwork and help us all - help us all. :thumbsup:

Until then, we will be fighting the good fight!

Paul

H Paul Payne
02-09-2009, 4:50 PM
You know something that we don't know.....don't you?

He might....................... He was at the meeting! ;)

Paul

7x57
02-09-2009, 5:23 PM
7x57, It seems like YOU took the time to PARTICIPATE in the meetings & discussions with the leaders in the pro-Second Amendment community in California.


Yes I did, and will continue to do so whenever possible. Just say the word.


I guess complainers will always be with us. But I will continue to ask for input, even from the complainers who (for whatever reason) don't participate with the rest of us.

And that's why we love you, Paul. :thumbsup: I hope the recovery is continuing.

Part of the impatience is a conviction on the part of many people that "the NRA/whoever just isn't doing anything." I've said it before: it's easy to find out what is happening with the NRA, though not quite as easy as just reading Calguns--join your local Member's Council and participate.

One way that pays off is trust when trust is needed. Paul and Gene have both essentially said "wait for the right time." Well, I said the soldiers don't and mustn't know what the general staff's plan is until the right time. That is to say, effective operation depends on trust. How do you rationally have that trust? Past performance, and knowing the people. Why do volunteers follow their general? Well, if he has a track record, a large part of it must be a successful record.

ETA: this is why the founders were quite concerned that the town militias would be under their local officers, and the state forces would be under their own officers, and so on. They knew why citizens fight--they fight for home and community, and they follow the leaders of those communities, the ones who they have good reason to trust.

If you do go to the meetings the NRA hosts for the MCs, you'll meet the people and find out what the NRA has done and is doing. That provides you with a basis for rationally deciding whether to trust the CA gun-rights "ad hoc general staff" when they say they can't reveal anything. Now, having met some of the people involved, I am quite confident in the motivation and competence of NRA people like Paul Payne and Ed Worley, and Calguns people like Gene, and the "Right Lawyers" like Chuck Michel, Don Kilmer, Don Kates, and the like. Not even the lawyers are just taking our money--when you hear them talk, you will understand that they chose this field of law because it really matters to them.

I'm not trying to name-drop--in fact it was quite easy to get involved, and I have met them all recently. Certainly within the last year. I haven't done anything special, so it won't be any harder for anyone else to talk to the same people. So go take Paul Payne's invitation and find out what the NRA is doing, and you'll have the confidence to believe him when he says he can't talk just yet. Same for the CGF board. They will earn your confidence. And the fact that I know this is why I can advocate for the NRA and for Calguns with complete confidence in them as organizations. Basically, I know who my friends are.

Now...will you earn theirs when they can go public with something that needs some foot soldiers? Or will you sit around asking why they don't do "X" without finding out whether "X" might not be a really dangerous thing to do?

7x57

bplvr
02-09-2009, 7:45 PM
Ca. is in a budget abyss.We want CCW to protect ourselves.
One stone ...2 birds. Open the CCW books and make each one issued $500.00 for five years. Don't think guns can raise $$$ , ? Think 11/04/08.

N6ATF
02-09-2009, 8:55 PM
$500. Effectively prohibiting the lower class from exercising their God-given right to self defense and infringing on the 2A. Great.