PDA

View Full Version : Is this legal in California


Norcalkid
02-08-2009, 1:18 PM
Is this considered a gun? It uses gunpowder and is full auto. Could one possibly get in trouble possessing one of these in California?


http://www.vintagerex.com/pics/gunpics/Para-Ordnance/Mod%2085/mod85.jpg


Mod 85
Manufacturer: Para-Ordnance
Year: 1987
The Model 85 "Dye Marking Tactical Machine Pistol." was designed as a close-quarters-combat training device for law enforcement and military personnel. More of a 'simunition' gun than a traditional paintball marker, the Mod 85 used actual cartridges which housed a .375 caliber paintball and a primer. Magazine fed and polymer bodied, the marker was closely styled after the Ingram MAC-10 sub-machine gun, right down to the fully automatic operation (the gun was available as either a semi-auto or full-auto).

The gun was known to be incredibly loud (technically being a firearm), wildly inaccurate, and terrifying to be on the receiving end of (yet a true crowd pleaser at the chrono station due to the noise, smoke, sparks and incredible cyclic rate of approximately 1200rpm). Banned from fields due to its extremely high velocities (reportedly around 400 fps), the Mod 85 saw little use on paintball fields, and is now considered more of a novelty gun, especially given the lack of ammunition for it.
Specifications
Action: Other
Valve Style: Other
Class: Open
Caliber: .357
Feed Type: Clip
Barrel: Fixed
Gas Source: Other
From http://www.vintagerex.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewmarker&marker=Mod+85&man=Para-Ordnance

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sMddhY9AC0&mode=related&search=

Jonathan Doe
02-08-2009, 2:44 PM
California Penal Code section 12001(b) defines:

"As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by force of any explosion or other form of combustion."

So, you need to define if it meets the definition of the firearm. The code does not define what type of projectile, lead, paint, or any other items. But catch here is "designed to be used as a weapon." The above device does not look like it was designed as a weapon as long as it was not modified to accept and fire live cartridges. And if it cannot fire live ammunition, I don't think it meets the definition. If it is non firearm, I don't know what can restrict possssion of the above item. I just won't carry and show to people. Some people may get a wrong idea.

On the other hand, I have seen plenty of starter pistols that shoot blanks that were converted to shoot 22 S, L, LR caliber cartridges. I have test fired them and they fired the cartridges without problem. That meets the definition of the firearm.

Little .02 in a nut shell.

Quiet
02-08-2009, 3:36 PM
If memory serves me correct...
... the paintball rounds for the Para-ORd Mod 85 consists of paintball, casing and small pistol primer.
... the paintball rounds are reloadable.
... when reloading the paintball rounds, use a steel ball bearing of appropriate size instead of the paintball.

Doing this would get you busted for making a "zip gun" [PC 12020(c)(10)] and/or possession of an unregistered machinegun [PC 12200].

I think it falls under CA's definition of a firearm [PC 12001(b)].

oldschool88
02-08-2009, 6:18 PM
California Penal Code section 12001(b) defines:

"As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by force of any explosion or other form of combustion."


Wouldn't that make a potato gun a "firearm".

devildog999
02-08-2009, 10:36 PM
At best, it is a VERY fine line

PolishMike
02-08-2009, 10:43 PM
Para Ordnance was around in 1987?

argonadict
02-09-2009, 1:53 AM
Is this considered a gun? It uses gunpowder and is full auto. Could one possibly get in trouble possessing one of these in California?


http://www.vintagerex.com/pics/gunpics/Para-


Mod 85
Manufacturer: Para-Ordnance
Year: 1987
The Model 85 "Dye Marking Tactical Machine Pistol." was designed as a close-quarters-combat training device for law enforcement and military personnel. More of a 'simunition' gun than a traditional paintball marker, the Mod 85 used actual cartridges which housed a .375 caliber paintball and a primer. Magazine fed and polymer bodied, the marker was closely styled after the Ingram MAC-10 sub-machine gun, right down to the fully automatic operation (the gun was available as either a semi-auto or full-auto).

The gun was known to be incredibly loud (technically being a firearm), wildly inaccurate, and terrifying to be on the receiving end of (yet a true crowd pleaser at the chrono station due to the noise, smoke, sparks and incredible cyclic rate of approximately 1200rpm). Banned from fields due to its extremely high velocities (reportedly around 400 fps), the Mod 85 saw little use on paintball fields, and is now considered more of a novelty gun, especially given the lack of ammunition for it.
Specifications
Action: Other
Valve Style: Other
Class: Open
Caliber: .357
Feed Type: Clip
Barrel: Fixed
Gas Source: Other
From http://www.vintagerex.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewmarker&marker=Mod+85&man=Para-Ordnance

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sMddhY9AC0&mode=related&search=



i know several people that have model 85s in CA with no issue, they are collectors items and nothing more,the question is just like anything what would you be doing with it?,they are still banned from fields,youd get in a heap of crap if you were caught outlawing,and unless you have alot of land they are to loud to fire in your backyard. basically so impracticle they are useless for anything but showing your pb gw nerds in your living room.

Spyder
02-09-2009, 4:59 AM
You ask if it is a gun and in the description itself it says "technically being a firearm".

Ya, stay away. It'll screw ya.

Norcalkid
02-09-2009, 10:12 AM
Thanks guys. I just wanted to make sure I wasnít going to get in trouble. I picked it up in 7th or 8th grade from a kid at elementary school. Iím 33 now so it was a while ago. I just wanted to make sure I wasnít in possession of an illegal firearm. There are no misuse issues. The thing hasnít been fired in 15 years. It was the most inaccurate thing I have ever fired in my life. Thanks

dreyna14
02-09-2009, 10:45 AM
Anytime you have to ask that question, about legality in CA, you should automatically assume the answer is "no."

SwissFluCase
02-09-2009, 12:30 PM
Anytime you have to ask that question, about legality in CA, you should automatically assume the answer is "no."

Not necesarily. This is what the Gunbroker idiots do, however. :(

Regards,


SwissFluCase

leelaw
02-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Wouldn't that make a potato gun a "firearm".

If you used combustion instead of, say, an air compressor and solenoid, yes it would be.

ke6guj
02-09-2009, 1:06 PM
If you used combustion instead of, say, an air compressor and solenoid, yes it would be.I think this part of the code would keep it from being considered a firearm, "designed to be used as a weapon".

Fate
02-09-2009, 1:11 PM
I think this part of the code would keep it from being considered a firearm, "designed to be used as a weapon".
Stand downrange... :43:

ke6guj
02-09-2009, 1:18 PM
I'm not saying it it wouldn't hurt to be hit with a flying potato, but was it designed to be used as a weapon?

Here's what ATF has to say on the matter.

(A29) Are "potato guns" or "spud guns" legal?

"Potato guns" or "spud guns" generally consist of sections of PVC plastic tubing and fittings and are designed to launch a muzzle-loaded potato (or other similar-size projectile) using hair spray or other aerosol vapor as a propellant. The propellant is ignited by means of a barbecue grill igniter or other similar ignition system.

Section 5845(f), Title 26, United States Code, regulates certain weapons as "destructive devices" which are subject to the registration and tax provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA). Section 5845(f)(2) includes within the definition of "destructive device" any type of weapon which will or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel of which has a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter. However, section 5845(f)(3) excludes from the definition of "destructive device" any device which is neither designed or redesigned for use as a weapon and any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device. The definition of "destructive device" in the Gun Control Act (GCA), 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, is identical to that in the NFA.

ATF has previously examined "potato guns" or "spud guns" as described above and has generally determined that such devices using potatoes as projectiles and used solely for recreational purposes are not weapons and do not meet the definition of "firearm" or "destructive device" in either the NFA or GCA. However, ATF has classified such devices as "firearms" and "destructive devices" if their design, construction, ammunition, actual use, or intended use indicate that they are weapons. For example, ATF has classified such devices as "firearms" and "destructive devices" if they are designed and used to expel flaming tennis balls.

Possession and use of "potato guns" or "spud guns" may be restricted under State laws and local ordinances. Further, any person intending to make, use, or transfer any such device must be aware that they have a potential for causing serious injury or damage.

The same reasoning applies to properly configured Bang sticks. They do fire fixed ammunition, but are not designed to be weapons, but as a self-defense device against sharks.

Norcalkid
02-09-2009, 3:08 PM
Anytime you have to ask that question, about legality in CA, you should automatically assume the answer is "no."


Ya right, Then non of us would have OLLs if that is how we all thought.

ZRX61
02-09-2009, 5:38 PM
I'm not saying it it wouldn't hurt to be hit with a flying potato, but was it designed to be used as a weapon?


.75in barrel & frozen tatertots for ammo will break a rib....;)

However, my 1.5in caliber spud cannon merely converts the spud into instant mashed taters when fired at a block wall (or caves in the end of the neighbors aluminum shed if I miss the wall....), Gotta love the 10ft muzzle flash at night tho :thumbsup:

Only time I ever had an incident with the cops over it was the time I fired from my garage, across the street into an open field.. almost taking out the christmas lights on the roof of a passing LASD cruiser....That was a :eek: moment.... I was assured during the following conversation that, altho I scared the crap out of him, he would take no further action if I showed him how to build one. 10 minutes later he was headed to Home depot with a list of pvc pipes & connectors to purchase & I still have my cannon :cool:

edit: just remembered a second incident with cops & spud cannons:
LAPD friend of mine was at a BBQ here one day & several people were playing with the spud cannon. When it was his turn he didn't get the aquanet/air ratio quite right so it didn't fire...

In front of at least 20 witnesses he turned the cannon around & looked down the barrel. His dad was stood next to me & remarked "I dont know where I went wrong with that one"

Wild Squid
02-09-2009, 6:12 PM
Hell No that's not legal in CA. That's all there is to it. It's full auto

sorensen440
02-09-2009, 6:24 PM
Anytime you have to ask that question, about legality in CA, you should automatically assume the answer is "no."
If we accepted that answer we would not have any of the EBR's we hold so dear