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View Full Version : bullet is the only "specified" absolute tool


bohoki
02-07-2009, 6:38 PM
i was just thinking with all the olls and such having to use a tool to remove a fixed magazine

the way the law is written it coudl be argued that the bullet tip is the only item that is "always a tool"

so can we not just glue a bullet tip into the magazine release of the bullet button device?

just because it is attached to the gun does not make the bullet tip not a bullet tip anymore

timmyb21
02-07-2009, 7:05 PM
But then it would be attached to the gun, which I thought was clearly stated to be a no-no.

SwissFluCase
02-07-2009, 7:08 PM
But then it would be attached to the gun, which I thought was clearly stated to be a no-no.

Does it say the bullet point has to be detached? I'm sure it's been hashed, but I'm curious to see what the right people say. :lurk5:

Regards,


SwissFluCase

aplinker
02-07-2009, 7:27 PM
let me see if it passes "the test..."


Sorry, no.
http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2082097/badodor-main_Full.jpg

leelaw
02-07-2009, 7:32 PM
If the bullet is attached to the magazine release, then it's not a tool, it's a part of the firearm. At that poitn you're simply using your finger to manipulate the magazine release, by pressing on the "extended" magazine release.

Just because a bullet is specifically defined as being considered a tool, doesn't mean that it is always a tool regardless of what you do with it.

FS00008
02-07-2009, 8:28 PM
Well that brings up this question...

Why does your finger not count as a "tool"?
1) It's not attached to the firearm
2) It has a variety of uses, not the least of which being to type this...

etc. etc.

Eroland7
02-07-2009, 8:30 PM
good try, a valiant effort...:gunsmilie:

M. Sage
02-07-2009, 9:21 PM
Well that brings up this question...

Why does your finger not count as a "tool"?
1) It's not attached to the firearm
2) It has a variety of uses, not the least of which being to type this...

etc. etc.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool%5B1%5D
tool: 1 a: a handheld device that aids in accomplishing a task

No, a part of your body is not a tool. A tool is something that you pick up to accomplish a task.

Then again, what do I know? I only use tools 10 hours a day...

bohoki
02-07-2009, 9:41 PM
But then it would be attached to the gun, which I thought was clearly stated to be a no-no.

clearly by whom?

is a bank pen not still a "pen" even if it is chained to a bank

a chuck key is still a tool even if it is attached by a cable to the drill press

so how about starting out glueing the bullet tip to a chain atached to the firearm



if a bullet tip is a tool under the law how could it ever not be one?

if we operated under a smell test how is any oll allowed cause you know the intent was to ban all ar-15s

bwiese
02-07-2009, 11:13 PM
1.) Any 'tool' should not be attached to the mag latch device (BB, Raddlock, etc.). The 'tool' should be separate from the rifle/latch and require human action/motion to grasp and apply.

2.) Just because "...a bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool" does not restrict tool to a bullet or ammunition cartridge. That particular phrase in 11 CCR 5469(a) is only as an example and is not restrictive.

DDT
02-08-2009, 9:01 AM
if a bullet tip is a tool under the law how could it ever not be one?


Can you please point out there the "tip" of the bullet is considered a tool?

vladbutsky
02-08-2009, 9:38 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16864&stc=1&d=1234114568

bohoki
02-08-2009, 12:04 PM
Can you please point out there the "tip" of the bullet is considered a tool?

its the "bullet" but may think that a cartridge is called a "bullet" so then talking about a bullet many call it the "bullet head" or "tip"

i apologize for any confustion it is just an idea to use as the law is often a double edge sword and when they specify what is illegal with the specificity they are required they generally give ideas how to most comply with the law and have the item function as we would most prefer



2.) Just because "...a bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool" does not restrict tool to a bullet or ammunition cartridge. That particular phrase in 11 CCR 5469(a) is only as an example and is not restrictive.
__________________

i was not using the law in a restrictive sense i was using it to make the point that a "bullet" is a "tool" and will always be one it seems that affixing any other tool to a firearm seems to remove its "tool" status and turns it into a "magazine release" but the law seems to absolutely keep the "bullet" a tool

motorhead
02-08-2009, 1:55 PM
there is considerable historical debate over which was the first "tool". a rock or a stick. i've always leaned toward the rock.

aplinker
02-08-2009, 2:02 PM
there is considerable historical debate over which was the first "tool". a rock or a stick. i've always leaned toward the rock.

That's because you still have that stick up your... ;)

hoffmang
02-08-2009, 2:06 PM
Here is the simple truth.

It doesn't matter what you attach to your rifle (bullet or not.) If Iggy can sit there on the stand and actuate the magazine release without using something not attached to your rifle, you are guilty.

Courts and juries can find these sorts of facts easily.

If Iggy has to take the "tool" off the rifle to use it (e.g. tool velcroed to stock) it's a tool and not a rifle with a magazine capable of being detached without a tool.

-Gene

bohoki
02-08-2009, 5:57 PM
Here is the simple truth.

It doesn't matter what you attach to your rifle (bullet or not.) If Iggy can sit there on the stand and actuate the magazine release without using something not attached to your rifle, you are guilty.

Courts and juries can find these sorts of facts easily.

If Iggy has to take the "tool" off the rifle to use it (e.g. tool velcroed to stock) it's a tool and not a rifle with a magazine capable of being detached without a tool.

-Gene

but the law specifies that a bullet is a "tool" so you by actuating the tool it actuates the release

hoffmang
02-08-2009, 6:06 PM
but the law specifies that a bullet is a "tool" so you by actuating the tool it actuates the release

Does it say "tool" or "rifle" on the property tag? Does Iggy drop the magazine using only his finger?

Your linguist gymnastics aren't valid and would get you convicted.

-Gene

artherd
02-08-2009, 6:13 PM
but the law specifies that a bullet is a "tool" so you by actuating the tool it actuates the release

No, no, no, a thousand times no!

Read the history of the rule-making behind the statute (your judge will, before he convicts you.)

DDT
02-08-2009, 9:11 PM
I'd prefer to face a judge with a clear conscience and not a snide plan.

Trash
02-08-2009, 9:26 PM
I prefer to use a small allen wrench instead of a bullet. Would tying a string around the allen wrench and then around the trigger guard so I could keep track of the wrench be in violation?

I'm not trying to 'stir the pot' here but am curious if this follows the letter of the law.

hoffmang
02-08-2009, 9:27 PM
I prefer to use a small allen wrench instead of a bullet. Would tying a string around the allen wrench and then around the trigger guard so I could keep track of the wrench be in violation?


If you don't have to take it off the rifle to use it to actuate the BB, it's not a good idea. Attach it to your belt instead.

-Gene

Trash
02-08-2009, 9:30 PM
So hanging by a string off the trigger guard would be frowned upon. Got it. Thanks.

Jpach
02-08-2009, 9:34 PM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool%5B1%5D
tool: 1 a: a handheld device that aids in accomplishing a task

No, a part of your body is not a tool. A tool is something that you pick up to accomplish a task.

Then again, what do I know? I only use tools 10 hours a day...


I know this is silly but, what if one were to grab one of their fingers and guide it into the BB or "Tool Button" to release the mag since it is handheld and is being used to accomplish a task? Obviously this wouldnt fly but I thought i would just poke a hole in what you meant to do by stating that definition.
How have we come to live in a state that actually cares about this BS and decides that it has the power to control wheather or not my gun looks scarey? Im getting real sick of this crap

Jpach
02-08-2009, 9:37 PM
clearly by whom?

is a bank pen not still a "pen" even if it is chained to a bank

a chuck key is still a tool even if it is attached by a cable to the drill press

so how about starting out glueing the bullet tip to a chain atached to the firearm



if a bullet tip is a tool under the law how could it ever not be one?

if we operated under a smell test how is any oll allowed cause you know the intent was to ban all ar-15s

I dont know about you Bohoki, but I am currently unaware of ANY banks that require bullet buttons or such things to have evil features. You are essentially comparing apples to sasquatch in your statement.

DDT
02-09-2009, 9:49 AM
I dont know about you Bohoki, but I am currently unaware of ANY banks that require bullet buttons or such things to have evil features. You are essentially comparing apples to sasquatch in your statement.

Sasquatch? Now there's a good reason to have a .50 BMG handy.

Mikeb
02-09-2009, 10:54 AM
I wouldn't tie a piece of string to the trigger guard. You might be charged with possessing a machine gun. And to be really safe you should wear loafers to the range.
edit...Looking at this I might be wrong about a shoe string and an AR. But a 10-22 and a shoestring is a possible issue.
take care
Mike

showerbabies
02-09-2009, 4:50 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16864&stc=1&d=1234114568

That pix just remind me ... there is a product out there that looks very similar to that pix. I can't remember which magazine I saw it in, but its for the touch-screen electronics.

Is that "nub" long enough to activate the BB?

vladbutsky
02-09-2009, 10:16 PM
Nub is long enough and does not make it uncomfortable to operate. Also it is simple, cheap and takes about 15 minutes to make...

2ndgunman
02-16-2009, 2:26 PM
Quick question: With the bullet button being used, can I remove the mag to reload even though I have a pistol grip, flash suppressor etc...without creating a AW. I think I understand the thought behind the BB, in that you have made the weapon no longer able to "accept a detachable mag". Some feel an open mag well is an open mag well if you have other "evil" features. I have no problem running 10 round mags, but top loading is such a pain in the A**. Any help or clarification would be appreciated

DDT
02-16-2009, 3:09 PM
This thread is about EXACTLY your situation.

If you need to use a tool to remove your magazine it is not a detachable magazine and therefore you can have other evil features such a collapsible stock, pistol grip etc. I believe there was one specific rifle the legislature wanted to NOT be an AW and it used a bullet tip to release the mag. the legislature decided to specify that a bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool for purposes of making a magazine not "detachable" per PC.